Must read from Kristof

[Hamlette]

A consensus is emerging on the left that Mr. Bush is fundamentally dishonest, perhaps even evil — a nut, yes, but mostly a liar and a schemer. That view is at the heart of Michael Moore's scathing new documentary, "Farenheit 9/11."

<snip>

I'm against the "liar" label for two reasons. First, it further polarizes the political cesspool, and this polarization is making America increasingly difficult to govern. Second, insults and rage impede understanding.

<snip>
Mr. Bush's central problem is not that he was lying about Iraq, but that he was overzealous and self-deluded. He surrounded himself with like-minded ideologues, and they all told one another that Saddam was a mortal threat to us. They deceived themselves along with the public — a more common problem in government than flat-out lying.

<snip>
But the rush to sling mud is gaining momentum, and "Farenheit 9/11" marks the polarization of yet another form of media. One medium after another has found it profitable to turn from information to entertainment, from nuance to table-thumping.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/30/opinion/30KRIS.html

We have become them? Worth thinking about.

[Eric J in MN]

1. Bush is a liar. Kristoff wants us to shut up,

Bush is a liar.

Kristoff wants us to shut up,

We won't shut up.

[sendero]

2. He has a point...

... but only a small one. What about the Niger forgery? Bush* insisted on citing it well after there was no doubt the document was fake.

Is that a lie or not? Not a hard question for me to answer.

When jagoffs like this start calling out the right for their lies, maybe I'll be interested in what they have to say.

[Guaranteed]

6. And they're STILL lying...

Saddam linked to Al Qaeda...

FUCK these lying sons of bitches. It's deliberate.

The second they had the nerve to imply that those against the Iraq war were unpatriotic, all bets were OFF.

[Hamlette]

15. depends of the definition of "is"

Bush's quote on the Niger incident was carefully worded so that he actually didn't lie (he said: "British sources tell us. . . " Uh, yeah. He actually didn't say "imminent" and he didn't say there is a link between Saddam and 9/11. he implied it but it is a war we can't win.

It is the same argument Clinton made over his testimony regarding "is" (in answer to the question "is you client having an affiar with. . . ". Clinton said he answer "no" because the affair was over by then. And this testimony over the definition of "sex". Oral sex, he argued, was not sex. And we got into this huge argument about whether he touched Monica's naked boob. Sheesh. We lost the whole argument about whether or not we should impeach someone over touching a boob.)

The point, I think, in Kristof's article is that a strong argument can and should be made about Bush's policies. Someone needs to say that the Bush Doctrine is hooey and we should not have a president in office who believes such nonsense and Iraq just proved our point. That argument, it seems to me, is better than saying "he's a liar."

I HATED the Clinton haters because they went after the man and not after his policies. I wanted us as a nation to talk about whether Clinton's policies were right or wrong. When the right demonized him and called him names NONE of us could talk about policies because we on the left were too buy defending the "lies" of Clinton.

I want us to go after Bush's actions. The more times we say "He's a liar" means more times we are not saying "his policies are wrong and here is why"

[Eric J in MN]

20. No, Bush DID NOT say "British intelligence tells us"

Bush said "The British governemnt has learned."

To learn something of this nature means it's true.

If the British govt., was wrong, as the CIA said, then the british govt. was mistaken, it didn't learn about Iraq trying to get uranium.

[Hamlette]

21. yes, you're right

he did say "british government has learned" it is stronger.

So, Bush lied. I still think our stronger argument is to point out what is wrong with his policies and I fear that by getting into fights over whether he lied or not we lose our edge on whether he is right or not.

Middle America won't care if he lied if they think he did the right thing or if they think the left is treating him unfairly. They will shrug it off and say "all politicians lie." If you don't believe that then remember that Clinton had a 70% approval rating during impeachment and some of that was because people thought he was unfairly treated by the right.

If people start thinking we are treating Bush unfairly they will run to his aid just like they did to Clinton's.

It's a dangerous game. I'm surprised not many here can see it.

[Eric J in MN]

25. many people thought impeaching Clinton over Lewnsky was

Many people thought impeaching Clinton over Lewnsky was unfair.

That is different from calling Bush a liar.

[sendero]

22. Any intentional act to deceive ...

.... is a lie where I come from. Sorry, Bush* is a liar.

[Eric J in MN]

43. I agee that the "lie" vs. "exaggerate" distinction is trivial when

I agee that the "lie" vs. "exaggerate" distinction is trivial when it comes to fearmongering to start a war.

Lying and exaggerating to start a war are equally bad.

[DenverDem]

3. The truth hurts liars.

Another attempt to get progressives to "play fair" while the wild eyed wrong wingers run amok with prevarication on top of prevarication.

Cheny that! busholini is a sociopathological liar, and that's the TRUTH.

Live with it, wrong wing bitches.

[BurtWorm]

4. So even if Bush IS a liar, we should not point out that he is one

because pretending he isn't one is better for the political atmosphere?

[bloom]

7. that must be it

:crazy:

[PoliticsSportsMusic]

11. Excellent point n/t

[devinsgram]

40. Who was it that said "if it walks like a duck

and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck?" Well if it lies and lies and lies, then it must be a liar.

[Francine Frensky]

5. What the Cheney? The ridiculousness of this quote:

<<But the rush to sling mud is gaining momentum, and "Farenheit 9/11" marks the polarization of yet another form of media. One medium after another has found it profitable to turn from information to entertainment, from nuance to table-thumping.>>

This quote makes sense, if you are talking about what rush limpaw was doing in the 90's -- pretending to inform while table-thumping.

But is the writer suggesting that (gasp) movies are now becoming.............entertainment??? I had noooo idea.

[Hornito]

8. Fuck Kristof..

Here's the text of an e-mail I sent him this morning:

(snip)
Kristof:

Look, it was the right-wingers that drug politics down into the gutter. They've been vilifying Democrats and liberals for years, in the harshest manner. Have you listened to Rush, Hannity, or Mike Savage lately? Where in the hell were you when the right was attacking Clinton? Where have you been while they've lied to this nation to start an illegal war? Where are you when a multitude of right-wing think-tanks attack the Left, with a vehemence usually reserved for rapists and killers?

So now, that the Left is standing up and fighting back, and delivering some of the same medicine, you call for civil discussion! Fuck you, and fuck your newspaper. You people have sided with, and been promoting the Bush regime from the git go. You, and the Times, have continually printed Bush regime propaganda regarding the war as gospel. Well, the truth is out now, including the truth that the Times and the Bush regime are run by neocons. The"genie" cannot be put back in the bottle, despite your lame attempts, and those of people like David Brooks.

So fuck you Kristof, you hypocritical bastard. On Nov 2nd we will take our nation back, and then take steps to insure the media will never betray our nation again, as it has over the last four years. After that, it will be time to deal with the traitors and seditionists who have betrayed our nation and done her great harm, and as far as I am concerned, you are among this latter group.

Sincerely,
XXXXXX XXXXX
Yuma, AZ
(snip)

[Guaranteed]

9. <whistle>

YOWCH!

[Raster]

12. nicely said. greetings to my native state... grew up in safford

[Hornito]

26. Thanks! Safford's an interesting place.......

n/t

[goclark]

16. Yes! Bravo!!!!!!!

Of all the scum to complain, Kristol is a neocon too!
He made his bed now he can LIE in it!

[Jokinomx]

28. Liberals have be to civil!!

I agree wholeheartedly. Generally its the neo-cons that incite everyone else. I am a proud liberal and have taken so much shit from those that know whats best for me. Using the quote from the movie "Network"... "I am sick and tired and I am not going to take it anymore."... So many good natured people were suckered into this rage of war. I spoke vocally against it from the beginning and was basically told I was unpatriotic and that I should support our troops. I DO support our troops.. they are just following orders as they should... its the person that is giving the orders that I am disgusted with.... So I high five those that are now saying enough is enough...

[Jokinomx]

29. Yep ... your right... I mean Left

I am sorry... I double posted... :-(

[JHB]

33. Think you used enough dynamite there, Butch?

:evilgrin:

[Skittles]

10. Bush Inc "decieved themselves"???? LOL

just when I think they cannot get any more desperate they sink soooooo much lower.

[cthrumatrix]

13. if there inaccuracies then please share..... truth is truth

[leftofthedial]

14. this is bullshit

the bushgang motherf**kers are lying criminal traitors.

They undoubtedly are also deluded, but this is no mere ideological difference of opinion. These shitstains are criminal lying traitorous motherf**kers whodeserve to be held accountable for the tens of thousands they have murdered.

[kentuck]

17. Sorry. Bush is a liar.

Extraordinaire.

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. 'Liar' is not an insult

it's a straight forward description of someone. Bush is a liar; for instance, he claimed that Saddam threw the weapons inspectors out of Iraq in 2003, when that was clearly false, and he knew it was. Similarly Cheney lied when he claimed that he never said the Iraq-Atta meeting in Prague was 'pretty much confirmed' - he knew that was wrong (he didn't qualify it like "I don't think I said that", he just stated it as a bald fact).

When I call Bush a sack of shit, that's an insult.

[Kanary]

19. So, continue to "be nice" and be stepped on....

Not a chance!

They started this polarity, they insisted on it, and they keep upping the ante.

I'll take a cue from Joe Wilson, and fight back, thankyouverymuch.

Kanary, nice to those who are nice, and fight back to those who would fight....

[trekbiker]

23. Hey!!... Kristof!!!!

Go CHENEY Yourself!!!!

[Jokinomx]

30. HAHAHAHAHA.... ROFL.......

I think that sums it up pretty well....:-)

[ProfessorGAC]

24. Hey Kristof!

You think calling him a liar further soils the political cesspool? Tell Li'l Georgie to quit lying. He's the one mucking up the system.

If he quits lying, we'll quit calling him a liar. Deal?
The Professor

[Just Me]

27. "They" (the neocons) waged a war of ideas against us, the people.

They have essentially instigated a type of world war that includes their own people. Everyone who fails to agree with them is treated as either a subordinate or an enemy. They leave us no choice but to fight expressively back with both facts and conclusions of our own.

[Sideways]

31. What A Fuckstick

"I'm against the "liar" label for two reasons. First, it further polarizes the political cesspool, and this polarization is making America increasingly difficult to govern."

Translation: First, it further exposes the RW cabal for the reptiles we are, and this exposer is making life difficult for our little dictator.:eyes:

Polarization is RW code speak for TRUTH. What a nasty sad pathetic bunch of shitdustbags.

[Guaranteed]

32. Franken talking about this column right now. nt

[KoKo]

34. Well the Right called Clinton a liar but Kristof says Bush was "over

zealous and self-deluded." Hmmm Clinton is hounded and impeached but Bush was just an "idealist gone wrong?"

How they love to spin, spin, spin.

[Generator]

35. OHHHHH

Let's see, possibly Kristof is a touch correct, however, he is giving the deluded grandeur of Bushco (naturally as I assume he's a rightie) too much credit where NONE is due.

If you are over-zealous and deluded, you can still tell the truth, after being informed of such, especially when it stares you in the face. The Bush Cabal has done no such thing, and as here pointed out, CheneyFuck still continues to insist that Iraq has links to Al Queda.

I, with none of the entire resources of our "intelligence" agencies, never believed that to be true. Nothing has ever shown that to be remotely true, nothing, nada, zilch.

Therefore, one must conclude that BushCo is seeking to deliberately mislead and confuse the American public. That must have a definition of nefarious.

They are either liars or MORANS, you can't continue to tell me that black is white and expect me to believe one isn't true.

Hey-"journalists" we Americans are not the idiots you think we are.

[Hamlette]

36. Kristof is NOT a rightie

He is not giving Bush credit he is saying we should stop calling each other names and start talking about the issues.

Which sounds reasonable to me.

(If you think he's a rightie read some of his past columns. His biggest issue of late has been Sudan where he is totally freaked by the genocide occurring there with no help from the US or the UN.)

I wonder if you all condemned him because you thought he was a rightie? If that is true and you still can't see his argument then there is not much point to any discussion. (You judged him, thinking he was a rightie, not by what he said but by who he was according to your stereotype of him.)

We HATE the right for Rush, impeachment, the tone, the scorched earth policy. I guess I'm not in the "adopting the right's methods is the only way we'll win" camp yet. But then I don't believe either LIHOP or MIHOP and I think LHO killed JFK. Alone.

[trumad]

37. Read Poor mans take on Kristoff stupid piece

http://www.thepoorman.net/archives/002849.html

[Generator]

39. Thanks! nice piece/ eom

[Eric J in MN]

45. Thanks for the link. I was thinking of wriing a simliar article,

Thanks for the link. I was thinking of wriing a simliar article, but "Poor Man" beat me to it.
------

I liked the comment on the webpage about how calling Bush a liar isn't playing a game, it's telling the truth about our govt. to improve the situation.

[Generator]

38. I don't honestly give a crap whether he calls himself right or left

Yeah, I judge him. I judge him on what he says. He's giving the LIARS a pass.
Not good. He's parsing words. He's wanking himself to get paid.

But then single bullet theories..you're world is much nicer and simpler than mine.

[DenverDem]

46. Then get out of the way while serious people try to solve this problem.

You are living in denial and until we start calling a liar a liar and bullshit bullshit the cheating, prevaricating theives will continue robbing us of our country.

Calling the wrong wing on the falsity of their policies, the hypocricy of their situational ethics and the prevarication of their leaders is not incivil, it is, in fact, our duty as responsible citizens.

[linazelle]

41. WHY is this a "must read"again? We know they hate Moore

We also know they hate the truth. What's different about this?

[Hamlette]

42. It's a must read to try and remind ourselves

that our contry is more important than our party/position/politics. I know that in the darkest part of my heart I think that if Iraq is a success Bush will be re-elected. I don't want Bush re-elected so is it worth the sacrifice?

No. I felt as strongly that Nixon and Reagan were evil, we would never survive, it was the downfall of civilization and democracy in our country. I felt exactly the same way as I do about Bush.

Saying "we know they hate the truth" sounds exactly the same as Bush saying "we know they hate freedom." Mindless drivel which not only fails to address what the hell is going on but precludes further discussion about what the hell is going on.

[DenverDem]

48. Iraq could never be a success because it was perpetrated on lies

and unethical geopolitics.

We are still feeling the destructive effects of Reagan and Nixon and to say that they did not cause the end of our nation is premature, because that still could happen thanks to the things they set in motion.

Saying that freeptards hate the truth is NOT the same as "they hate our freedoms" because the wrong wing does hate the truth because they know that their power is built on demagogic prevarication and they know that if the truth of their behind the curtain manipulations through media propaganda and black operations were told that The People would deal with them with exreme predjudice. (While, of course, the world hates us for our hubris driven barbarity and greed, not our freedoms.)

Hardly mindless drivel, more like the crux of the problem.

[TomNickell]

44. It's a valid point, but....

I didn't quite agree for 3 reasons.

First, we -need- a spectrum of opinions. MM saying Bush is a liar in bed with bin laden's brother makes JFK sound positively moderate when he says Bush is an incompetent, lazy, fool deluded by his advisors and in bed with Condi Rice.

Second, Bush -is- a liar. There is something to be said for truth.

Third, the Repubs actually did very well with their hate speech. I don't want to imitate them, but passion isn't poison.

[hansolsen]

47. Kristof getting pounded on his own forum

Here is the link:

http://forums.nytimes.com/top/opinion/readersopinions/forums/editorialsoped/opedcolumnists/nicholasdkristof/index.html

Last count over 400 posts lambasting Kristof for giving Bush a pass on "lies". We are not alone.