Is Desegregation/Integration an absolute good?

[Delano]

I'm curious what experts on the subject think.

I know that I'm against state-sanctioned or state-enforced segregation, but then there is the type of self-segregation we observe in the Chinatowns and Little Italys in some of our bigger cities. I love Chinatown here in SF, and I love the overwhelmingly Chinese neighborhood I live in.

When I imagine an America 2 or 300 years from now, where every neighborhood is totally integrated, and everyone is a sort of beige hybrid of all races (IE a new, diffrerent kind of homogeneous society) It kind of makes me sad.

How can individual cultures really be maintained without the kind of decades-long self-segregation that has made the Chinatowns what they are. Not that it's a rigid segregation. If the local people like you, you can gget in. My landlords are Chinese and the real estate agent was Chinese, and I'm 100% sure that our personalities had as much with our getting in here as did our credit report. The wife is Japanese, so there is a slight commonality or overlap of cultures.

I'm just wondering if it's possible to desegregate too much.

By the way I'm strictly talking about neigborhoods, living environments, etc. As far as the workplace and schools go, discrimination and segregation should never be tolerated.

If you think this post is wrong-headed, I can understand that too. I'm not even 100% sure about how I feel about it myself. It's really just a thought that has occurred from time to time...

[aquart]

1. I love when liberals pretend they aren't as racist as conservatives.

I went to basically segregated schools. My sister, two years younger, went to integrated schools.

My sister is comfortable with everyone. I'm not.

Are my principles and beliefs the same as hers? Yes, we mainly vote alike.

But I was the one who lost by segregation. I was the one who had the adjustment to make when I entered a new high school and found out that the president of the student body was black. It never occurred to me that that was possible. Honestly. My sister would have taken it for granted.

Segregation protects no one. And it harms the people who are separated simply by the separation. It harmed ME.

Chinatown is charming. But it allows bigotry to flourish both among the Chinese and the people in the surrounding area. The price of charm is people who never feel easy with each other. And that can lead to machetes in the night, among other things.

[Delano]

4. I went to integrated schools, and was forcibly bussed...

to a mostly Mexican school in 4th grade. I hated it then, but I like Mexicans just fine now.

Yuppyish white people strike me as creepy, and so do their pretending-to-be-black teenage kids.

I prefer mixed-ethnicity places over mostly white places, but I do enjoy the ethnic enclaves.

You raise an interesting point. But I wonder if the goal of bringing people of all backgrounds together so they feel at ease around each other can be achieved by school and workplace integration alone, or must all neighborhoods eventually be integrated. How much integration is enough? On a practical basis, can it ever really be achieved? (Especially in a society so divided by class as ours).

[Karenina]

38. "Bussing..."

The high school I attended in NYC had a very successful program. One middle class neighborhood to another. Then somehow it was "decided" that students from a violent and poverty stricken area should also attend- in numbers too large to absorb... POOF! INSTANT FAILURE!!!

Years later, one of our graduates who had risen to a respectful position in the Board of Ed took it upon herself to do a little research... Seems the careful planning that had gone into the "first wave" had succeeded MUCH TOO WELL and had "embarrassed" some higher-ups who had opposed the project. Things that make you go hmmmmm...

[noiretextatique]

21. nice post, aquart...one thing to remember though

chinatowns and other ethnic enclaves came into being because of the doctrine of segregation.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

2. If we ever get to the point that we're forced to desegregate too much..

... I don't think we'd be in a position to really worry too much in that strict of a totalitarian state.

Could you imagine filing a desegragation report with your income tax each year: # of friends who are: White, Black, Asian, Hispanic and then being audited because your numbers were off! "Sir, we see you have too many Hispanic friends and not enough Asian so from this point forward, please take Jose & Marguerite off your xmas list and add Chen & Yu."

Laws should ONLY address forced segregation.. not who I go to lunch with. :grouphug:

[pauliedangerously]

3. Very sensitive, complicated issue

Personal experience has taught me that forced integration breeds antipathy in some cases, but not in others. I went to my neighborhood school in Houston, TX in the mid seventies. We had bussed-in blacks there and everyone seemed to get along fine.

I was voluntarily bussed to a lower-classed white school in sixth grade, and I hated it.

Seventh grade, I was voluntarily bussed to a school in a black area and my parents pulled me out after there was a riot at the school.

I attended an African American university (the term "black" had given way to African American by then) and absolutely loved it.

It's a complicated issue because there isn't a set of rules that will work for everyone. Sometimes I think that there shouldn't be any rules or laws about discrimination, that race relations be allowed to evolve on their own, but then again, knowing that there are lots of people who would be treated unfairly as a result, I recognize their need.

This is the one issue that has troubled me more then anything else throughout my life.

Anyone who is 100% sure about this issue hasn't spent enough time with it, so you're not alone and you've demonstrated, to me at least, that you THINK.

[Karenina]

11. Well... I AM 100% SURE about it

having been born into the "bleeding egde" a half century ago. I integrated the school in our area. The neighbors were from Poland, Hungary, Trinidad, Serbia, England, Hawaii, China... Hell I THOUGHT THAT WAS NORMAL!!! My FAMILY is still considered 50 years later, "unbelievably" multi-culti. We got EVERYBODY and dey ALL BLOOD. I put "unbelievably" in quotes to draw attention to the number of times we introduced each other and were met with blank stares, repeated questions or accusations of LYING. Getting folks to just "deal with it" is sometimes funny, other times infuriating.

Just ONE point. When you are born into such a circle, you realize before you can speak that a person's CHARACTER has zip, zero, nada, nichts, basta and NOTHING to do with his or her physical appearance.
Too bad most Americans STILL DON'T FUCKING GET IT.

[pauliedangerously]

31. Good for you...

Clearly you are very passionate about this subject and you feel that because of your family's racial make-up you are an expert on these matters.

Your ONE point is not relevant and does not address the crux of the problem. It is not peoples' appearance per se, but the associations people make with people from different demographical groups based on past experiences.

Here's a sample of my experiences in sixth grade, back in 1977: I was the only white kid on my bus and all year long I was called "honkey" and "white thing." I was further teased by my male busmates because I had never "fucked a girl." I was eleven years old. Some days were better than others, but the bus ride had some pretty humiliating days.

Fortunately, my parents were there to guide me along and help me get through this. They explained to me that these were poor people, that they didn't know any better, and that these experiences would make me a better person when I grow up.

My parents are very intelligent, thoughtful people, and people like my parents are few and far between. Thanks to them, my sixth grade experience made me a better person. I don't think many other kids in that situation would have emerged from it as I did, and I am certain that others have had similar experiences.

People will see whatever they want. I would contend that you have probably "sensed" racism when none was there, because you are overly conscious about your own ethnicity. People used to give my family wierd looks because I, my mother, and father have dark brown hair and my younger brother has red hair and freckles. Is there anything racist about that? Of course people are going to give you funny looks when your family members all look different...it's a perfectly natural thing. Instead of being amused by it, you chose to be offended.

I would recommend that you take a long look in the mirror and try on some other peoples' shoes. Until you do that, you will remain 100% sure of yourself, just like the ones you so vehemently criticize.

[Karenina]

39. My, my...

Feeling a little testy today? I apologize if my commitment and enthusiasm offend you. Yes, I am 100% CERTAIN that when we are able to see and feel each other as HUMAN BEINGS first we will begin to realize our vast potential.

I AM an expert on these matters and welcome your "disdain." It's an indication of a mindset with which I'm quite familiar. Speaking of SHOES, got a great pair of wooden ones from a guy who's family has been making them for generations. The "pair that got away" were these amazing, multicolor, hand stitched all-leather beauties a wandering trader brought back from the mountains in one of the 'stans. I couldn't justify the expense at the time :-( but walked around in them for awhile. SWEEEEET!!!!

[pauliedangerously]

45. It's the absolutism, dear....

Anyone can express 100% certainty of a hypothetical impossible situation. Moreover, you have simply changed the subject. The uncertainty issue raised by Delano in the original post was referring to forced integration, not being "able to see and feel each other as human beings."

You claim to be an expert, but offer no supporting evidence. You welcome my disdain and even boast your familiarity with being looked upon that way, and then you attempted to make a mockery of my challenge to you to "try on other shoes." The only commitment and enthusiasm you have displayed thus far is to belittle others for not thinking just like you.

Putting on pretentious airs and blasting other people will never solve any of the racial issues we face today. In fact, they only aggravate them and make things worse for everyone.

If you REALLY want to help move people in a positive direction, you must first shed your dogma and zealotry and, again, put on some other shoes.

[noiretextatique]

47. like those of those "low-class, poor folks"

youR parents told you about, per chance?

you further write:
"Putting on pretentious airs and blasting other people will never solve any of the racial issues we face today. In fact, they only aggravate them and make things worse for everyone."

perhaps some advice you need to take yourself? indeed.

[pauliedangerously]

60. Indeed...

My parents stressed the "poor" point to avoid making a racial issue out of a class issue.

As far as the pretentious airs go, please allow me to clarify; re-reading the thread, I can see that my point was vague.

First, I have no personal problem with the exchange of text thus far. What I MEANT was that such discourse tends to aggravate the racism affliction in those affected most: the less fortunate, and the intellectually challenged.

It was "them edumucated Notherern Liberals" who drove the South rightwards in the sixties and seventies. Johnson even stated that Civil Rights would deal a severe blow to the Democratic Party. I'm not disagreeing with the policy, quite the contrary, but I am disagreeing with the way it was presented. I am disagreeing with all of the finger pointing and assignment of blame. It has only aggravated the situation.

Let's take a look at the most famous intellectually challenged person in US History: GWB. His daddy pulled some favors and got him into Harvard. Clearly, he didn't belong there, and (please forgive me to think that I know more about him than he does) he no doubt was humiliated often by his fellow students because of his ignorance and Southern roots.

And so here we are: We have a racist president, who don't (sic) even know it, who stole the 2000 election by wrongfully disqualifying black voters in Florida, who may yet win again in 2004. Voting fraud aside, he appeals to all of those "Cornflakes and Kool-Aid" types who may or may not be racist, but who feel the fingers of the intellectually elite pointing at them.

I hope this point is clear. I assert that this venue is probably not the best for discussing such matters, because it is too slow and too easy to be misunderstood.

Thank you for your reply.

[Karenina]

54. Thank you for your response Paulie

And for giving me an opportunity to pose some questions that are not directed at you personally, but to the "room."

"Your ONE point is not relevant and does not address the crux of the problem. It is not peoples' appearance per se, but the associations people make with people from different demographical groups based on past experiences."

Au contraire, my dear Watson. The VISUAL is the FIRST reaction. How is it that an Irish Catholic can spot a Protestant at 50 paces? I can now spot an "Ossi" in an instant. What if you HAVE NO PAST EXPERIENCE with the "group" in question? May I respectfully suggest you check out alllooksame.com? It is a fun gut check. Also Tolerance.org. I was NOT surprised to find I had negative responses to black men. How'd they do that??? BUSTED!!!! Our responses to others are visceral, ingrained, inculcated and happen before the conscious, intellectual mind has a chance to get a grip. I have a link to a study about that buried deep on my hard drive, I'll try to find it.

Obviously, your parents are very loving thoughtful salt-of the-earth Americans. I embrace them and you. Please allow me to point out that you ALWAYS had an "escape." Ich nicht. And therein lies the difference.

"People will see whatever they want. I would contend that you have probably "sensed" racism when none was there, because you are overly conscious about your own ethnicity."

I'm sorry, Paulie, whether you are maroon, chartreuse or ochre, anyone and EVERYONE born in America has been "programmed." How can you as a white male presume to know what I have sensed? That in itself is an "assumption of superiority" a declaration that it is within YOUR province to define the terms, which very well may be more gender than race related. ;-) My shit detector is a SURVIVAL SKILL. I MUST BE CONSCIOUS. You have no need to develop one, nor does anything in the dominant culture demand you do so. You have earned your understanding VOLUNTARILY. May I ask you to read some of Tim Wise's writings? HE really !!!gets it!!!

"People used to give my family wierd looks because I, my mother, and father have dark brown hair and my younger brother has red hair and freckles. Is there anything racist about that? Of course people are going to give you funny looks when your family members all look different...it's a perfectly natural thing. Instead of being amused by it, you chose to be offended.!

Now your "assumption of superiority" demands that I respond in a particular way. Please read my post again. Sometimes we played cat and mouse, other times when folks were INDESCRIBABLY RUDE the'd get it right between the eyeballs. It's "perfectly natural" that white people grab my dreadlocks and ask if it's my "real hair." Tell you what, kids and old ladies get a "free pass," can ask me anything, play with my hair to their heart's content. Anyone else better tread lightly. WHY? Because I say so. Does that also offend you?

[noiretextatique]

56. shut your mouth, woman

:hi: who the hell are you to talk about your own experience as if you're some kind of authority on it or something...don't you know you just "sensed" all that stuff that wasn't really there, like this person who doesn't know anything about you or your life experience just told you? :wtf:

:shrug: surely, you know that YOU can't be the final arbiter of your life experience...you just ain't qualified. better hush now and let this internet poster tell you all about yourself, putting on airs and being pretentious, and the like (which really isn't your place, you know)...cause s/he seems to know about your experience than you do :eyes:

my rule about touching my locs: touch my hair, draw back a nub :7

[Karenina]

58. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Du HEXE!!! MY KEYBOARD!!!! BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! OH SHIT ! WHERE'S THAT DAMN TOWEL???

[pauliedangerously]

59. Your points were well taken...

Karenina:

Please accept my apologies for any misunderstandings we may have had. I think that this is probably not a very good forum for discussing such a sensitive matter, because we lose a lot of meaning in each others' words due to the lack of intonation.

Everyone on this planet, save for maybe a few isolated homogenous groups, has had to contend with racism in one form or another, regardless of their respective race. It's sad, and it bothers me.

Though we seem to disagree on some of the finer points, due to our own unique experiences, we both recognize that this phenomenon is counterproductive to progress.

I understand your "shit detector" point very well. Being a white male, it is a lot easier for me to blend in. When I get tired of dirty looks, I can cut my hair, remove my earrings, and cover my tatoos...and then I appear to be an ordinary *snort* respectable *snort* *SNORT* citizen.

Having moved from New York to Texas in 1974, I also learned how to modify my speech patterns and accent to hide my origins. I got sick of being called a "nigger lovin' northern liberal," while getting pummeled by the little redneck kids in the apartment complex we lived in when my mom started graduate school.

The funny thing is that after finally escaping from the South ten years ago, I had to modify my accent again to avoid the redneck jokes...go figure. :eyes:

This bulletin board thingy really sucks because there's so much I want to say, but can't type.

Let me just finish this by extending to you my unconditional respect, and sincerest wishes for a peaceful existence.

LOVE THEM DREADS!!

[Karenina]

62. Yo, Pauliedearest,

Misunderstandings are part and parcel of posting postulations on an anonymous board. I appreciate your apology and effort to keep our line of communication open.

Racism is a subject we have been, for whatever reason, consistently unable to discuss in any rational or coherent manner on DU. I have a theory as to why this is the case but still find it quite discouraging and incredibly, incredibly depressing.

I tend to doubt we disagree on even the fine points. You are absolutely correct. The difficulty IS in communicating them clearly enough to reach a point of understanding without the non-verbal cues. It's a challenge. We'll just keep trying, eh?

Don't get me started on accents, boyfriend. Make me wanna holler, throw up both my hands!!! Sometime we'll trade "war stories." ;-)

[noiretextatique]

46. and your experience...was it just "sensed" as well?

the names you were called on the bus? oh right...it's was just those low-class, poor kids who didn't know any better :eyes:

[pauliedangerously]

61. No...

I have to get ready for work, but I want to get back to this point.

Thank you for bringing it up.

[gpandas]

51. "lower classed"? n/t

[DrWeird]

5. What the fuck kind of question is that?

Jesus Fucking Christ.

[Delano]

6. Read the post if you don't understand the question.

Desegregation and integration are both good civic policies. The question has to do with to what degree they should be carried out.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

9. I think it's a good question and

the answer is 'yes' as the Supreme Court case involving the University of Michigan made clear.
There are plusses and minuses and in the end the positives win.

[Delano]

12. If there are plusses and minuses..

...then it's not an "absolute good". That makes it an "overall good", the net effect being good.

Absolute good implies that there ARE NO minuses.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. Absolute good? No. But, a helluva lot better than it was.

Desegragation wasn't, and isn't, about "forcing" people to love their fellow man. It was, and is, to repair hundreds of years of damage done to minorities by the ruling elite.

I'm old enough to remember the de facto Apartheid that we had in this country. I lived, briefly, in the south as a kid and went to a segregated school in the '50s. That was more than enough to convince me to join the civil rights movement later.

It's not about eating won-tons or liking Spike Lee, it's about the effects of racism that still exist in our society.

[Delano]

8. Yes. And I don't think we're where we should be yet...

I guess I'm talking more in terms of future theoretical scenarios.

I would just hate too see my wonderful chinatown all full of corporate chains, and all the other type of ethnic stores to the point that it was no longer chinatown. It just seems sad, like throwing away something special.

I grew up in a bland white suburb, and I wouldn't want to go back to one...

[Slickriddles]

29. Have you registered any voters in YOUR wonderful Chinatown?

Will you get a load of this guy? Too much integreation is going to spoil his quaint litte Asian neighborhood. As if Asian Americans are here to add some spice to his otherwise bland caucasian life.

Also that's a mighty big picture ya got there. Not as big as ol' Tom Paines used to be but close.

[Delano]

32. Gee, you must know me pretty well.

I lived for many years in Japan. I'm fluent in Japanese and am a Japanese translator. I happen to like Asian cultures a great deal more than our own. I don't look upon Asians as some sort of decorations or entertainment. And as I said, I was speaking strictly very long-term and theoretically. This isn't a problem now at all. (Although the local Japantown, dispersed after WWII never regained its original population, and has declined even more due to Japanes companies withdrawing their operations in the US in rrecent years. And yeah, that is sad (although it's not a product of integration, just a natural economic and demographic shift)

My wife is so grateful to have a place where she can find all of the oriental foodstuffs she wants (the real stuff, not bottled green tea orange juice or hevenly bamboo), she also loves having the Japantown nearby so she can get the things she likes from home and feel at ease around other Japanese people. She hated living in a regular American community, to feel so disconnected from home.

But you know all about us, I suppose. Maybe you can think of some cute way to ridicule her too.

I said I grew up in a white neighborhood, not that I was white. I am, but you shouldn't assume.

I think it would be sad if places like this no longer existed. I'm pretty sure most people here agree, and I know my wife does. If you have a problem with that sentiment, say so, don't try to come up with obtuse insults to people you know NOTHING about.

[Delano]

35. By the way, I haven't registered voters...

But I did a bunch of Dean meetups before he screamed, wrote the letters, donated all I could to the campaign...

[Karenina]

40. Delano, please say more

about your experience living in Japan as gaijin ;-) I'd be VERY interested in your take on it.

[Slickriddles]

41. I'm sorry and I stand corrected

Please forgive me, I'm kind of an Old school guy and somewhat out of my element on-line without visual clues or audio clues. I often can't judge who I am communicating with or where they are really coming from. The first thread I started here simply asked if there were any African Americans at DU. I asked because a lot of posts seemed to be from people who took the dominant culture to be the only culture and that troubled me. I was attacked viciously -- called a racist, told "we are all color-blind here" etc. It made me very sensitive. Here's the thread.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1862671

I just think it is of the utmost importance for the left in the United States to know what it's thinking is on the question of minority nationalities. I look forward to continuing the conversation. And once again my apologies.
Slick

[Karenina]

42. Mensch!

:loveya:

[patdem]

15. What you just said about 'forcing; people to love their fellow man...

I recall the Republicans going on about how you cannot legislate morality by integration...but they want to introduce the 'Sanctity' of marriage act???

[Cleita]

10. I thought integration was about equal opportunity for everyone

not giving up your ethnic identity or culture. I see nothing wrong with preserving the music, dance, art and literature of your ancestors. My gripe is when neighborhoods are segregated by not selling or renting to a certain demographic of people. Then it become discrimination and segregation.

I also feel that each neighborhood should be required to have a percentage of low income housing especially the rich neighborhoods because the people who work in these enclaves need a place to live too.

[Karenina]

13. What YOU SAID!!!

:toast: :loveya: :toast:

WHITE PEOPLE are the most hung up on issues of race. To be "fair" let me throw in the Japanese. ;-) It is a "taboo" topic here and the few times we've actually gotten somewhere the threads have been locked.

The WORST racism I've personally encountered in Germany has been at the hands of my fellow Amurikkans....

[Delano]

14. I like what Cleita said too.

But this thread has been a lot less contentious than it could've been.

Actually, I think every response has had something valid to say. My only nitpick would be with the person who seemed to misunderstand the meaning of the phrase "absolute good".

If the question was simply "Is desegregation/integration a good thing?", the answer would be an unequivocal YES.

[Karenina]

17. Please do woik wit me hyeh,

Delano my dear. I stand by my comment and committment that DESEGREGATION in today's world is an ABSOLUTE GOOD. What I mean by that is creating avenues for people to interact. Why? Because fear and the subsequent demonization, marginalization or even romanticizing the "other" runs DIRECTLY COUNTER to this poster's deeply held American conviction that "ALL (WO)MEN are created EQUAL." (So the first thing is to define "equal." Oh shit! Here we go!!! :silly:)

What I was trying to convey is the ingrained sensibility I grew up with that culture, language, skin color und so weiter und sofort, do NOT define an individual. BABIES and CHILDREN KNOW THIS INSTINCTIVELY. They ALSO have an international translator. They are TAUGHT to fear, distrust or view the "other" as superior/inferior. It's collectively destructive BULLSHIT.

[Jack_DeLeon]

16. Is intergration good.

Yeah intergration is good, but I dont necessarily believe that the government should force intergration in all aspects of our lives.

I dont really think intergration should be forced at our schools, which for the most part it isnt anymore.

Maybe back in the day when government sponsored segregation was ended, it was necessary just to show people that it was possible, and that it wasnt the end of the world.

That being said I would be against more forced intergration today.

[Karenina]

18. SOUNDS OF AN AMERICAN!

DOO de dada doo-de-dah! :silly:

[Delano]

19. I tend to disagree

Integration (only one 'r') is most important in the schools where it teaches kids to understand and not fear those of different cultures and races. The only time I disagree with it is when it imposes an undue hardship (forcing kids to go all the way across town)

Schools should be as diverse as possible within the bounds of practicality. Kids should also bea able to choose to go to any other school in the district if they aren't happy with the one in their neighborhood.

The reason for integration in the 60s was not to "show it could be done" It was because "separate but equal" was anything but equal. It became the consensus tha integration was the only way minority kids could get a comparable education.

Schools in white neighborhoods STILL generally get more funding than schools in black neighborhoods within the same school district or region. It's a real problem.

[Slickriddles]

30. Hey Tex, sumpin 'bout black folk bother you?

What is it about you Texans? You went into Mexico and started a revolution because slavery was illegal there. Now you want to repeal the 14th and 15th ammendments. Any American should be able to live go to school, hang out with and marry whoever and wherever they please. And ever since I took a look at the Texas GOP's party platform, I'm sorry but I find you flag offensive.

[noiretextatique]

20. what about whites who self-segregate?

how do you think little italys and chinatowns and ghettos came into being?

[Solon]

23. Too true...

white flight, due to racial fears, are what created many of these places in the first place. Anyone who was not a WASP was usually limited to certain neighborhoods in cities and towns due to economic or other pressures, that is what is sad.

[Solon]

22. A few things...

1. Cultures are never 'preserved' as it were, they usually remain distinct in certain neighborhoods due to ethnicity, however, they are NOT the same cultures that existed in those areas for decades or centuries before. That is rare to begin with, especially in America, and when it does happen, technology and attitudes are usually centuries behind the 'mainstream'.

2. On racial/ethnic identity, new races and ethnicities will crop up from time to time in the coming centuries. It is damn near impossible to create a hybrid of all races in 2-3 centuries, we're only talking about 10-20 generations here.

3. As far as neighborhoods, and the homogenizing of them, I lived in U-City Missouri, and let me describe some stuff to you about it. There was a Korean Catholic Church across the street from me, most of my neighbors were either African American or Hispanic. There was a Synagogue 2 blocks from where I lived. Also across the street was a Japanese restaurant, as well as Vietnamese, Greek, Chinese, Kosher restaurants all down the street from me. Not to mention, that, just by walking down the street, you can see about 5 to 6 different ethnicities/races just by leaving your door. Is the neighborhood homogenized? I would say not, it was colorful, believe me I LOVED being down there, especially the food. I lived in a neighborhood, where no one race or ethnicity is the clear majority, it is called the "Melting Pot" of St. Louis for a reason. Is this bad somehow, I don't think so, but nothing is ABSOLUTE in any respect of the human condition, so to say it is ABSOLUTELY GOOD is impossible.

That is subjective anyways, white supremacists would hate it there, so to them it is bad, to me, an Irish boy from the White 'Burbs who for some reason grew up with 2 best friends, one who was half white/black, and another who was Filipino. Its funny, because my mother grew up in U-City, and my own grandmother actually was the one who 'managed' the integration of that city years ago, so you think I have any idea as to what you are complaining about? Nope I do not, just let people be, and we will figure it out among ourselves, it is nothing to worry about.

[LastDemocratInSC]

24. A word you won't find in any posts preceding this one is ...

... Justice. Why is that?

Lots of talk about absolutes and personal feelings, no talk about the obvious.

[noiretextatique]

26. enlighten me please

i'm not sure what you mean. thanks.

25. Are there any absolute goods?

That's the real question.
IF you can't answer that you can't answer your question.

[Jack_DeLeon]

27. Hypothetical Question...

Should Native American Reservations be forced to intergrate?

[Delano]

28. That WOULD be a good question...

except that Indian Reservations are ostensibly tantamount to a sovereign state within the US. Many federal and state laws are not applicable.

If the European conquerors had kept their word once in a while when dealing with the Indians, there might not have been a need for the reservations. But the greed of the European settlers was insatiable. Not much has changed.

[tishaLA]

33. This is potentially an interesting question

at least in comparison to seeing gay men in "odd poses" in public parks in San Francisco and wondering how the gay folks feel about it. But of course, in that case, when one doesn't see illicit activities, we can work up a fury against the freedom of assembly.

I have few beliefs in absolute good and I trust the words of people who talk about the ways integration has actually weakened cohesive communities, especially in the African American community. Around the anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education, a number of scholars had works published on this question. And Skip Gates' memoir, "Colored People" looks back with fondness on a time before what is called desegregation.

I am less familiar with similar critiques in the Asian and Latino communities, but I know they were plentiful around the time of Props 209 and 187 here in CA.

[Swamp Rat]

34. Ha ha! You need to go to BRAZIL!!!

Aiiiii cara!

[DemExpat]

36. Interesting topic!

I don't really believe in "absolute" Absolute Good....everything in life has consequences to oneself and others, not all consequences are positive, in my experience.
One of my mentors tried to impress on me that chosing one path will close the door to another.....(you can't have it ALL! :D)

Losing cultural differences (desegregation and integration) does seem to make the world bland and uniform IMO, while also fostering feeling more comfortable with fellow humans in general. (Hopefully less conflict and war?)

OTOH - diversity changes the dominant culture as well, so a new culture is being created in the process. We can't really say for sure that an integrated city, country, world will be monitone and bland!
(It really is the CONSUMER/corporate culture that seems to be overtaking the planet, and this is not a good thing imo...)

Self-segregation is a strong force in the modern world - for people tend to want to live in neighborhoods where they feel a familiarity and "homey" feeling. Not all segregation is forced IMO.
Many immigrants here in Europe want to live near friends/family from the old country in neighborhoods within cities. I know I would. But this does also hamper access to the Dutch culture and society because people living in a cultural pocket tend to not learn their way around in complex Dutch society.

I enjoy living in The Hague where there are quite a few Americans around as opposed to living in a smaller Dutch town where there are none....so I prefer a diverse community while having access to a "touch of home"....

And I don't see your post as wrong-headed at all - it is an issue in our world that many people ponder.

:hi:

DemEx

[Karenina]

43. "Absolutes..."

Ehrlich gesagt, the only real "absolute" I recognize is that if you're born a sentient being on this planet, eventually you will die. ( Don't mind me in my polarizing lightning rod mode. :evilgrin:)

I don't for a minute believe it's about "losing" cultural differences. I see it more as an individual incorporating those that work on a personal level. Experience with others who have different points of reference tends to make one more open and less fearful of their "intent." I gave up dietary restrictions after reading an essay by Swami Vivekenanda on "kitchen-pot religion." If your Grammy made it, I'll eat it. (Just don't tell me what it is! ;-) )

"OTOH - diversity changes the dominant culture as well, so a new culture is being created in the process. We can't really say for sure that an integrated city, country, world will be monitone and bland!"

You REALLY hit the nail on the head with this observation. When I lived in CA there was a restaurant called the "Asian Cajun." It ROCKED the tastebuds!!!

I TOTALLY agree with you that the CORPORATE assimilation is destructive. When I got off the train in Vienna and the first HUGE AD I saw was for McDonald's I flipped! :puke:
We climbed L-O-N-G path up a very steep hill to get to a schnitzel place, the ONLY access was by foot... I was worth it!

[ronabop]

37. In a segregated world...

The Italians don't eat any pasta (It's a Chinese invention).
The whites and spanish don't eat corn, mole, etc. (Native American).
...and nobody but native americans smoke tobacco, or much else.

Hm. I like an integrated world a bit more.

Rather than thinking of culture being "lost", or "replaced", I think cultures are added to, or enhanced, by integration with other cultures. Italian cuisine did not vanish just because noodles were introduced.

Chinatown residents speak multiple languages, and live in multiple cultures... thus, adding richness and depth to both.

I guess the point is that *adding* a culture doesn't require the elimination of another culture.

In 2-300 years, we may all speak 5-6 languages (hopefully), and honor multiple heritages. I'm polish-ukranian-german-irish-scottish-english, and I try to honor, and live, in my own multiple cultural perspectives. I make perogi, in my kilt, while talking in english.... :-)

-Bop

[hiphopnation]

44. Off topic...

where do you live? I live close to Chinatown/North Beach. We might be neighbors!

[chiburb]

48. Hiphop, you're gonna have to hold a seance if you

Want a reply from Delano.
He wasn't as skilled as he thought he was...

[Karenina]

55. Meine ficken Fresse!!!

The dearly departed claimed to have been Gaijin. Any white male who has undergone that expeience returns PROFOUNDLY CHANGED. The previously held reference points get completely scrambled.

Oh well, I hope we can carry on in this thread or others together to find a NEW UNDERSTANDING, based on recognizing our COMMON HUMANITY.

[FlaGranny]

49. I've read through some of these replies

and I would like to add that so far, in the posts I've read, everyone is missing the point of your post. The point, as I see it, is the question: "Is total desegregation a good thing, because inevitably, in the long run, it will wipe out ethnicity?" No more Italians, no more Irish, no more Africans, no more Arabs, etc. I don't know the answer. Segregation is bad, but ethnicity is good - in my opinion. Where would we be without it? Look how ethnicity has enriched everthing that touches all our lives. I believe that is the question being asked by Delano. I wonder also.

Edit: I can imagine a future where everyone will be a beautiful shade of golden tan and there will be no races. Will that be good or will it be bad? I enjoy diversity.

[chiburb]

50. See post #48.... n/t

.

[porphyrian]

52. You are talking about memes, you just don't know it yet.

What desegregation and integration do is to expose culture memes to each other. In the instance that there is a conflict, one meme usually becomes dominant, forcing the other into obscurity and/or extinction.

For example, people who are from less-affluent countries tend to make a big deal about meal preparation. But, here in America, we have all kinds of processed, reconstituted and hydrogenized versions of food that only take minutes to prepare. Brought together in America, our meme usually wins, as there isn't enough time in the average American day to spend half of it cooking. However, in the less-affluent country, you may not have a microwave, or Velveeta may cost $20 a loaf, so fast food may lose to baking from scratch.

You have an affinity for the segregated Chinatown, so you have, in effect, become part of the segregated Chinatown meme's defense mechanism. At the same time, you seem to be bothered by this, perhaps because the civil rights movement sought integration as a way to be fair to everyone.

Anyway, until we gain greater understanding of the universe, I would say that there really aren't any absolutes.

[left is right]

53. Not an absolute good

It meant that some small children had to ride a bus for an hour or more each way. Time that could have been spent playing or doing homework. But it was a qualified good. Children learned about each other and their ways and some, maybe most, learned to accept others on the basis of their personalities and abilities--rather than skin color or accent. How can that possibly be a bad thing?

[Karenina]

57. Your post has inspired this old lady

to hang on yet another day... :sad: :sad: :sad:
Wir sind alle so oft verarscht....... :cry: