Pearl Harbor LIHOP???????

[soundfury]

Is this just speculation or is there now a CONSENSUS that FDR did know about the attack on Pearl Harbor and let it happen?

Is Pearl Harbor LIHOP a Republican talking point revisionist history or the truth?

[Bridget Burke]

1. Mostly it's a Republican talking point.

They really hated FDR for being a traitor for his class.

An attack from Japan had been expected--in the Philippines.

[Massacure]

3. Yup, they thought the Japanese would attack the Phillippines

Then when the radar picked up a large formation of aircraft incomming at Pearl Harbor they thought that a bombing exercise group was returning. By the time they saw the Japanese flag on the planes, it would too late.

[One_Life_To_Give]

7. ??

they thought that a bombing exercise group was returning

No bombing exercise was being conducted that morning. The B17's were being flown in from the mainland. The only other bombers to show up during the attack were Halseys' SBD (Dauntless) Dive Bombers from Enterprise.

[Massacure]

11. Oh, they were from the mainland?

I always thought they were a bombing exercise. Anyways thanks for correcting me. :)

[WoodrowFan]

14. yep

so they landed in the middle of the attack, unarmed and out of fuel.

[Jose Diablo]

40. Radar?

I didn't think Radar was available at the beginning of WWII.

[Yupster]

57. Well it was

and radar operators watched the large number of planes coming right in and also notified their superiors who didn't do anything. It was quite a communications and chain of command breakdown. Especially since we had also broken the Japanese diplomatic code and knew an attack was imminent. Also, FDR obviously was trying to maneuver us into the war. We were already helping England hunt u-boats, and we had cut off Japan's oil from Indonesia (DEI at the time).

I wonder if Haliburton was around back then?

Imagine what DU would have said back then.

[Cheswick2.0]

63. bullshit

The administration made a mistake in believing that attack would be somewhere besides Pearl Harbor. That is as sinister as it gets.

[Blue Wally]

69. RADAR

was in its infancy and there was no universal trust of the system. The lower ranking weekend duty officers thought the operators were just getting spurious images.

[stickdog]

94. Why does this sound just like the excuses for 9/11 to me?

Sorry, but Pearl Harbor reads like another LIHOP.

It may not have been as explicitly LIHOP as 9/11, but Roosevelt wanted an excuse to join the war full steam ahead and Pearl Harbor sure delivered.

[Blue Wally]

109. Excuses or reality?

Pearl Harbor was not on a full war readiness status. It was a Sunday and most of the brass was enjoying the weekend. Headquarters at all levels were manned by their duty officers who would have been LT-CPT-MAJ or their Navy equivalents. The new RADARs would have been treated with a lot of honest doubt as to their effectiveness.

I can remember when the new Chemical Agent Alarms came out in the 1970s and were kept in the battalion headquarters in garrison. They would go off in the middle of the night scaring the duty officers and duty NCO. Later it was found that they were sensitive to floor wax and nightly waxing and polishing of floors in offices is an old Army tradition.

Watch the movie "Tora, Tora, Tora" sometime. It has a lot of realism as to the confusion that probably took place.

Whether or not FDR was culpable on Pearl Harbor, the subsequent "kangaroo courts" on Adm Kimmel and Gen Short were pretty shameful.

[stickdog]

119. Does it really matter? Because either they knew it or they blew it.

And when it happened, they ran with it just like the PNAC'ers ran with 9/11.

On top of that, they scapegoated two poor guys whom they kept out of the loop.

[SonofMass]

76. The Japanese did attack the Phillipines. December 8, 1941

[Media_Lies_Daily]

8. It is nobody's "talking point". It had long been rumored among...

...WWII Pacific Theater historians that we must have known something prior to the "surprise attack". Read "Day of Deceit" by Stinnett, a Pacific Theater veteran himself, and you'll discover that we had broken all of the Japanese codes necessary to know exactly where the Japanese fleet was going.

Additionally, there was an 8-point memo written well BEFORE Pearl Harbor by a Navy officer by the name of McCollum. This memo outlines the steps the U. S. needed to take to provoke Japan into attacking U. S. interests in the Pacific. One of those steps involved moving the ships based along the West Coast to Pearl Harbor.

Day of Deceit
<http://www.pearlharbor41.com/>

"After decades of Freedom of Information Act requests, Robert B. Stinnett has gathered the long-hidden evidence that shatters every shibboleth of Pearl Harbor. It shows that not only was the attack expected, it was deliberately provoked through an eight-step program devised by the Navy. Whereas previous investigators have claimed that our government did not crack Japan's military codes before December 7, 1941, Stinnett offers cable after cable of decryptions. He proves that a Japanese spy on the island transmitted information--including a map of bombing targets--beginning on August 21, and that government intelligence knew all about it. He reveals that Admiral Kimmel was prevented from conducting a routine training exercise at the eleventh hour that would have uncovered the location of the oncoming Japanese fleet. And contrary to previous claims, he shows that the Japanese fleet did not maintain radio silence as it approached Hawaii. Its many coded cables were intercepted and decoded by American cryptographers in Stations on Hawaii and in Seattle.

The evidence is overwhelming. At the highest levels---on FDR's desk--America had ample warning of the pending attack. At those same levels, it was understood that the isolationist American public would not support a declaration of war unless we were attacked first. The result was a plan to anger Japan, to keep the loyal officers responsible for Pearl Harbor in the dark, and thus to drag America into the greatest war of her existence."

The McCollum Memo

<http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum/index.html>

[Blue Wally]

70. Put on your tinfoil hats....

In WWII, Stinnet was a sailor on the same carrier on which Bush 41 was an officer.

[SicSemperTyrannis]

85. He's also written a book about FratBoy...so what? Nice try to...

...to attempt to smear the writer because you believe FDR was perfect.

Sorry, but Stinnett's facts in "Day of Deceit" check out. We broke the Japanese codes before Pearl Harbor, and we knew when and where they were coming.

Have you even read the book before posting your comments, such as they are?

[Blue Wally]

108. Yes, I jhave read the book.

I have a copy in my library about six feet away from me right now. My comment was sort of tongue in cheek. I do not believe that a torpedo bomber pilot and an enlisted sailor would have much interaction on a carrier unless said sailor was a part of his aircrew or was his crew chief. If you look at the bio sketch on the rear book cover, the publisher says that Stinnett served "under" Lt George Bush from 1942-1946. I would tend to believe that Stinnett served "with" Lt Bush on the same carrier, but was not a direct subordinate in his chain of command. Certainly the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory has a lot more going for it than the various JFK conspiracy theories or the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I have both of Layton's books and also John Prados' "Combined Fleet Decoded" which goes into quite a bit of detail. Like most books on such a subject, Stinnett emphasizes the evidence which supports his thesis and demphasizes evidence which would cast doubt. Still, I belive that the book is a worthwhile read and qualifies itself for a permanent place in my library.

[Blue_Roses]

2. ..........

you have got to be kidding...right? what a waste of time...

[soundfury]

4. I ask because i'm debating someone and I

don't know if any Dems agree with that or not.

[WoodrowFan]

5. no

I'm a professional historian (PhD in 20th Century US history) and the consensus among historians is that FDR did NOT know about Pearl Harbor beforehand. The historians that say he did rely on the text of cables that were not decoded and translated until 1942. Others have used a "postwar debriefing" of a Nazi official from German Intelligence, but the "testimony" turns out to have been a fake written by some Holocaust deniers.

[recidivist]

6. Same problem we have today.

We collect far more raw intelligence than can possibly be translated, analyzed and absorbed by the worker bees who have to slog through it. "They could've/should've known" is an accusation there for the making for anybody with 20/20 hindsight and an ax to grind.

[lanparty]

26. Cypher vs code ...

And don't forget, even if you do de-cypher a message, that doesn't mean you can understand what it says.

One did not need a disaster on the scale of Pearl Harbor to justify war against Japan. A sensible cabal would have gauranteed the possibility for a vigorous defense and the entrapment of the Japanese fleet from retreat.

The Pearl Harbor attack was absoluetly devastating. Given Roosevelt's strong committment and vigilance to the defense of England, why would he weaken the Pacific fleet so drastically.


When the shoe is on the other foot, you see that 9/11 is a completely separate situation. The nations capacity to conduct foreign warfare was not hampered. However, our capacity to conduct intelligence on Saudi Arabia WAS. The financial markets were barely effected.

Most of the debris was hastily carted away. WTC7 debris was carted out of the country without an investigation. The passport of a hijacker was found unscathed in a mountain of charred smouldering rubble.


Roosevelt really had nothing to gain from Pearl Harbor. It made his administration look bad. 9/11 created the myth of George W Bush as a hero. His poll number shot WAY up. Bush got his war and his affluent buddies got their war profiteering. Roosevelt was considered a traitor to his class until the day he died.


Finally, Pearl Harbor was carried out by a brilliant, American Educated man. They pulled off a daring raid under just the right circumstances. It was an incredible coordiation and planning effort. 9/11 was carried out by 16 men with ceramic box-cutters. A few of which nearly missed their flights.

[soundfury]

9. Thank you, can you point me to some

links that I can show this person that this Pearl Harbor Conspiracy has no bases in fact.

I always thought it was Republican revisionist history and a Repug talking point.

If these rumors are not confronted head on with facts, then this crap just lives on.

Thanks for any help.

[WoodrowFan]

13. try these

(sorry for late reply, my DSL was down)

Beach, Edward. "Scapegoats: A Defense of Kimmel and Short at Pearl Harbor"

Bratzel, John "Pearl Harbor, Microdots, And J Edgar Hoover" American Historical Review (AHR) December 1982.

Clausen, Henry "Pearl Harbor: Final Judgement"

Harris, Ruth "The Magic Leak of 1941 and Japanese American Relations' Pacific Historical Review (Feb 1981)

The definitive book, aside from Prange (see below) is Wohlstetter, Roberta "Pearl Harbor: Warnign and Decision" 1962.

and of course, Gordon Prange is good. Also, if it's a freeper arguing this, he'll respect National Defense Magazine.

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/article.cfm?Id=577

Putting all of the conspiracy theories to bed are two texts from Penguin Books. “Pearl Harbor: The Verdict of History,” by Gordon Prange with Donald Goldstein and Katherine Dillon ($20), is a sequel to “At Dawn We Slept: The Untold Story of Pearl Harbor.” The same authors and Penguin Books have published a 60th anniversary edition of “At Dawn We Slept” that helps to counter the spate of revisionist conspiracy theories.

To buttress this anti-revisionist movement, there is “Pearl Harbor: Final Judgment,” by Henry Clausen and Bruce Lee, published by Da Capo Press ($19, paperback). Often overlooked is the part played by Secretary of War Henry Stimson’s 1944-45 investigation. Here, we learn that, for most of the war, many intercepted Japanese messages were never decrypted or evaluated because of a shortage of personnel trained in decryption methods or fluent in the Japanese language. In fact, many messages were left undeciphered until after the war.

Further, the two services (Army and Navy) did not coordinate their intelligence-gathering efforts or share the results. Stimson concluded that what we knew later in the war was not available on December 7, 1941.

[stickdog]

128. Beach is a revisionist himself.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n6p35_Weir.html

Washington's most egregious failure with regard to the forces in Hawaii was in neglecting to pass on vital intelligence information to Kimmel and Short. Because the Washington high command no longer gave the highest priority to Pearl Harbor as a possible Japanese target, and (according to Beach) because Washington feared compromising the source of its intelligence intercepts, known as "Magic," Washington failed to supply the Hawaii commanders with the intelligence that would have sufficiently alerted them to the strong likelihood of an impending attack.

For some time prior to December 1941, US cryptographers had broken Japan's diplomatic code, and high-level administration officials were routinely reading all confidential communications between Tokyo and Japanese embassies in Washington and elsewhere. During the weeks prior to the Pearl Harbor attack, US officials decrypted several Japanese messages that indicated an imminent outbreak of war with the United States and Britain.

These included a secret message sent by Tokyo to the Japanese ambassador in Berlin on November 30, 1941. He was told to meet immediately with Hitler and Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop, and in confidence to inform them:

Say to them that lately England the United States have taken a provocative attitude, both of them. Say that they are planning to move military forces into various places in East Asia and that we will inevitably have to counter by also moving troops. Say very secretly to them that there is extreme danger that war may suddenly break out between the Anglo-Saxon nations and Japan through some clash of arms and add that the time of the breaking out of this war may come quicker than anyone dreams.

On the evening of December 3, the US Navy Department in Washington intercepted Tokyo's coded "winds execute" message, which informed its embassies that Japan would soon be at war against the United States and Britain.

By December 6th at the latest, US officials had enough information to indicate Pearl Harbor was the likely target of an impending Japanese attack. For one thing, Washington knew on the 6th that Japan's envoy in Washington was ordered to deliver his final message to US Secretary of State Hull at 1:00 p.m., Washington time -- which coincided with dawn in Hawaii.

During a 1944 naval inquiry, Captain Laurance Safford, the leading cryptologist responsible for decoding intercepted Japanese messages, courageously testified on what he and his office knew:

On December 1, we had definite information from three independent sources that Japan was going to attack Britain and the United States ...

On December 4, 1941, we received definite information from two more independent sources that Japan would attack the United States and Britain, but would maintain peace with Russia. At 9:00 p.m. (Washington time), December 6, 1941, we received positive information that Japan would declare war against the United States, at a time to be specified thereafter. This information was positive and unmistakable and was made available to Military Intelligence at this same time. Finally at 10:15 a.m. (Washington time), December 7, 1941 , we received positive information ... that the Japanese declaration of war would be presented to the Secretary of State at 1:00 p.m. (Washington time) that date.

All decoded messages, Safford explained, were promptly passed on to the President and other key civilian and military personnel. Yet both Kimmel and Short were kept in the dark about the most pertinent of these messages. The responsibility for failing to pass along this critically important information to the Hawaii commanders, Beach writes, belonged to Admiral Harold Stack, General George Marshall, and Vice Admiral Richmond Turner.

Beach and other historians believe that at a secret, late-night White House meeting on the evening before the Pearl Harbor attack, President Roosevelt was informed of the most recently intercepted Japanese communication. A Navy officer who was present later testified that upon reading it, Roosevelt exclaimed "This means war!" Beach contends that it was fear of exposing "Magic" that explains Roosevelt's failure to immediately alert Kimmel, Short and other appropriate officials, and even to deny that this late-night White House meeting ever took place.

Just one hour and seven minutes before Japanese bombs began falling on Pearl Harbor, an important telegram by General Marshall was dispatched to General Short in Hawaii. It read:

japanese are presenting at one pm eastern standard time today what amounts to an ultimatum also they are under orders to destroy their code machine immediately stop just what significance the hour set may have we do not know but be on alert accordingly stop inform naval authorities of this communication marshall

Marshall could have used a trans-Pacific telephone to make sure that Hawaii learned instantly of this momentous news, but this was not done. Instead, this message was sent by regular commercial radio telegraph, and was not received by Short and Kimmel until after the Japanese attack.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

10. Have you personally read "Day of Deceit"?

[Lithos]

17. To add

I'm under the impression that while Purple (the Japanese diplomatic cyphering system) was broken, there was not enough information contained in any of the decoded documents to identify when/where the Japanese would attack. In addition because the intelligence operations were so new and the distribution mechanism to policy experts was extremely flawed, the flow of the available information was severely hampered.

For example, while they did manage to also decode the Japanese ultimatum sent just hours prior to the attack, the fact that this was received on a weekend and the delay in moving up the chain of command prevented it from being seen by the President until after hostilities. But even if it were read by the "right" people, it too lacked specific information to indicate a location for an attack.

L-

[bpilgrim]

23. no evidence of "when/where the Japanese would attack"

reminds me of c. rice on 911 ;->

but seriously... do you have the transcripts and don't you think we would have but our pacific bases on heightened alert at least.

i think we would have to be naive to think we were caught off caurd knowing all that we now know like our preassure tactics to push them to war and that we were reading their mail.

peace

[One_Life_To_Give]

61. They were alerted.

The "Battle Plan" at the time assumed a Japanese offensive into the Phillipines. Adm. Hart commanding Asia Pacific fleet was to fight a delaying action, while the US Pacific fleet fought it's way across the Pacific.

[bobbieinok]

89. in the 40s and 50s this was a major repub claim - FDR knew

[starroute]

12. It was concocted by an extreme right-winger, John T. Flynn

See:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAflynnJT.htm
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/01-31-2000/vo16no03_flynn.htm

The second of these is a right-wing source that supports Flynn's conclusions and therefore should be used with caution. However, both pages taken in combination will give you a good idea of the highly-politicized context out of which these charges arose and the motives of their proponents.

[Fight_n_back]

15. Its been debunked many many times

There were cables that were intercepted but the code was not broken until late in the war. Those cables talk about attacking POEarl Harbor. Right Wingers use that to say that Roosevelt knew and let it happen.

I fiond the logic hard to swallow that allowing an enemy to destroy more than half your Navy is a good thing. He could have gone to Congrees with cables of an impending invasion and gotten into the war.


If this is making the rounds then it may be a preemptive strike against something some have feared about the Bushistas...

[bpilgrim]

18. the carriers were out to sea and being able to read your foes mail

without them knowing is extremly vital that allowed us to take them at midway as well.

it is certainly a secret that would remain CLASSIFIED throughout the war AND afterwards.

i ask any reasonable person to imagine anyone sneaking an entire japanese battle group across the pacific while we were ACTIVELY proding the japanese to war and us NOT noticing a thing :crazy:

now imagine the POLITICAL CLIMATE just after the 'GREAT' war and you KNEW you had to get in this one SOMEHOW and you KNEW the imperial navy was on her way... would you break radio SILENCE?

hell NO, not if you were FDR.

in my mind it is still a topic definately open for debate/discussion.

:hi:

peace

[Fight_n_back]

19. Aren't you the guy

that thinks Milosevic was railroaded?


Letting the Japanese destroy most of our entire Navy doesn't make sense.

All the actual evidence points to it being a surprise.

What sattellites were you expecting to track the Japanese Navy in 1941?

Evidence and logic are against you but you can keep calling it an open mind if you want to.

[bpilgrim]

20. same old misdirection yang

well you can attack the messenger but that desn't change the msg.

"Letting the Japanese destroy most of our entire Navy doesn't make sense."

the carriers won the pacific.

"All the actual evidence points to it being a surprise."

where?

"What sattellites were you expecting to track the Japanese Navy in 1941? "

we broke their radio codes and we watched the ports and patrolled our water ways sattelites not required, just good ole fashioned intel ;->

"Evidence and logic are against you but you can keep calling it an open mind if you want to."

ah, ending with another misdirection, suprise.

peace

[Fight_n_back]

25. Interesting response

the radio code wasn't broken until after Pearl Harbor happened.

Unless you believe that weird time travel movie about the carrier that goes back in time really happened then it didn't do anyone much good.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080736/

"The carriers won the Pacific" Summing up the Pacific campaign in five words and then you accuse me of misdirection?

Watched what ports? With what? patrolled our water ways with what? The Japanese fleet never entered our waters.

Have you ever looked at a globe? Check out the Pacific Ocean. It is the really, big blue area to the west and south and north of the United States.

You can provide no valid evidence that the US knew about the attack beforehand. You cannot construct a reasonable scenario where allowing the enemy to destroy most of your fleet is an advantage.

Your welcome to try but so far you haven't so Im guessing you can't.

[bpilgrim]

29. Higashi no kaze ame

there ya go again, attacking the messanger but whatever...

Prior Knowledge

One of the most important elements in America’s foreknowledge of Japan’s intentions was our government’s success in cracking Japan’s secret diplomatic code used to communicate to its embassies and consulates, including those in Washington and Hawaii. American crypto analysts broke the code in 1940.

On October 9, 1941, the War Department decoded a Tokyo-to-Honolulu dispatch instructing the Consul General to divide Pearl Harbor into five specified areas and to report the exact locations of American ships therein. There is nothing unusual about spies watching ship movements — but reporting precise whereabouts of ships in dock has only one implication.

An additional warning came via the so-called "winds" message. A November 18th intercept indicated that, if a break in U.S. relations were forthcoming, Tokyo would issue a special radio warning. The message, to be repeated three times during a weather report, was "Higashi no kaze ame," meaning "East wind, rain." This prospective message was deemed so significant that U.S. radio monitors were constantly watching for it, and the Navy Department typed it up on special reminder cards. On December 4th, "Higashi no kaze ame" was indeed broadcasted and picked up by Washington intelligence.

Washington was not only deciphering Japanese diplomatic messages, but naval dispatches as well. President Roosevelt had access to these intercepts via his routing officer, Lieutenant Commander McCollum, who had authored the original eight-point plan of provocation to Japan. It was long presumed that as the Japanese fleet approached Pearl Harbor, it maintained complete radio silence. This is untrue. The fleet barely observed discretion, let alone silence. Naval intelligence intercepted and translated numerous dispatches, some clearly revealing that Pearl Harbor had been targeted.

more...
http://cooperativeresearch.org/wot/foreignpolicy/pearlharbor.html


more...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/images/pearl_harbor/recommendations


peace

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. Boom!! Your post just became Yang's "Pearl Harbor".

[Fight_n_back]

53. Boom! You haven't read "Day of Deceit" have you?

"To his credit, Stinnett does recognize that the Winds Execute message (a favorite revisionist conspiracy allegation) was never sent. He also recounts Secretary of War Stimson's blatant attempt to reverse the Army Board of Inquiry's determination that Marshall was in dereliction of his duty as to his Pearl Harbor actions. Stimson sent attorney Clausen around the world to obtain new affidavits countering the witnesses' previous testimony of Marshall's neglect to act on Purple decrypts. However, Stinnett omits the fact that Clausen also tried to place the blame for not fully informing Hawaiian commanders on navy cryptologic officers. The latter effort is also part of the aim of this book, but its shot is far wide of the mark."

http://www.usncva.org/books/book-10.html

[Media_Lies_Daily]

122. You didn't answer my question. I'll take that as a "no".

[Fight_n_back]

39. Yes, of course, "East, Wind, Rain"

Thats Pig Latin for "Drop bombs on Pearl Harbor"

"As damning to the revisionist claims as the ignorance of facts is the absence of logic. Gaping holes riddle the revisionists' reasoning. Even if FDR sought a Japanese attack as a pretext for war, would he really allow all the major ships of the American fleet to lie vulnerable and so many Americans to be killed? Surely a strike on American soil that was far less crippling would still have aroused the public indignation to make war against an aggressor.

And yet the stories have persisted into our own day, only to be blown apart. Consider:

In 1981, journalist-historian John Toland published Infamy, which cited an interview with an unidentified seaman who claimed to have intercepted reports of a Japanese aircraft carrier approaching Hawaii just before the raid. But once the seaman was unmasked as Robert Ogg, and the interview on which Toland was relying was made known, it became clear Toland had distorted or misread Ogg's account.
In 1991, James Rusbridger argued in Betrayal at Pearl Harbor that it was Churchill, not FDR, who suppressed intercepted news of the invasion. But Rusbridger's reliance on the claims of a 92-year-old naval captain persuaded few reviewers.
This spring, Robert Stinnett published Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor, which uses the fact that American intelligence did seem to intercept Japanese messages not far from Hawaii. But as reviewers noted, Stinnett never demonstrated that those intercepts were fully understood or even relayed to the highest levels. Like many conspiracy theorists, he attributed to high-level plotting what was in fact something far more common: human error.
Alas, the repeated failure of the dozens of tracts, from the 1940s to our own day, to stand up to scrutiny will not deter those who believe history is full of conspiracies any more than it will deter Sen. Roth from pandering to a constituent. No amount of evidence or argument will persuade those who wish to believe in Roosevelt's treachery or in Adm. Kimmel's faultlessness. Which is not a surprise. Have you ever tried to convince a True Believer that Oswald acted alone?

"
http://slate.msn.com/id/94663


The theories you espouse come from people known as "historical revisisionists". They come to the fore most often when revising the history of the Holocaust. They use facts like a drunk uses a lamp post, for support rather than illumination. Quoting them is like quoting the "American Spectator" about the Clinton administration.


Just because the establishment lies doesn't mean the anti establishment is telling the truth.

I know Brutus was part of a conspiracy because there is evidence and it makes logical sense. I know Oswald was part of a conspiracy because ther is evidence and it is the only thig that makes sense.

FDR allowing the Japanese to attack PEarl Harbor has no evidence and makes less than no sense.

Intercepting the fleet on the way to Pearl Harbor would have been enough to get us into the war.

If he planned it then why not pull the ships out and have the Japanese attack an empty base? Then he gets the double effect of getting us into the war as well as being the hero that averted a sneak attack.

really...in twenty years will you be arguing that Clinton had Ron Brown killed? Or that Hillary shot Vince Foster? Or that JFK Jr was murdered because George magazine got young people interested in politics?

c'mon...some things are exactly as they seem. If you are going to accuse a President of Treason you had better come up with at least as much manufactured evidence as Jerry Falwell tried on Clinton.

[stickdog]

42. Your "logic" is not persuasive. The "guilt by association" tactic is lame.

The truth is obvious. Pearl Harbor was just like 9/11 in that either we knew it or we blew it.

PNAC didn't use the term "Pearl Harbor event" by coincidence, and Roosevelt was trying to provoke the Japanese.

[Fight_n_back]

43. based on what?

what evidence do you have that hasn't already been shown to be a mistake or a lie?

Why is it so important to you that FDR committed treason?


and it isn't guilt by association. If a group of psychotics tell you they saw a spaceship then it is pertinent to the weight you should give their opinion. So it is with historical revisiionists.

[bpilgrim]

49. based on your BS

and tactics of always attackig the messanger if you don't agree or understand.

i think it's obvious in this case it's both.

peace

[Fight_n_back]

50. so your evidence of FDR's treason is me?

and you accuse me of blaming the messenger?

I guess I should be flattered that I hold the key to this decades long non mystery.

[bpilgrim]

77. no. you provide evidence of YOUR flawed logic in your previous post

as well as ample evidence of your distractions by attacking the messenger.

:hi:

peace

[Fight_n_back]

91. How does that prove your case?

you HAVE NO EVIDENCE. You have no evidence that hasn't been shown to be false, faulty or fabricated on numerous occasions.

You don't even attempt to show how my logic is faulty let alone explain how yours isn't.

That is because you have a BELIEF. It is very important to you to believe that FDR committed treason. So important that you don't need evidence and refuse to discuss it rationally. This is an article of faith for you that is supported by less evidence than the most far out religion.

When accussing a President of treason you should have SOMETHING to back you up. More than just "Rich guys lie". They don't ALWAYS lie.

You can't even make a logical scenario on WHY he needed to let the Japanese destroy the US fleet. Losing the war in the Pacific would have been very bad for business.

Beside the fact that your entire premise, that war is good for the economy, is provably false. What made WWII work for the economy was the GI Bill and the Marshall Plan. Things the Democrats were doing anyway.

Revolutionary War? Followed by a huge depression.

1812? Followed by depression

Mexican American War? Ok, that one worked out except we got stuck with Texas.

Civil War? Massive recession followed

Spanish AMerican War? Tough to say. The Industrial part of the economy did well but it was also fueled by the influx of cheap labor.

WWI? Followed by the largest depression in known history.

WWII? The economy was recovering before the war (only people with an axe to gring say otherwise)

Korea? Hardly counts

Vietnam? Followed by a devastating recession.

The rich make money off wars. The rich make money off peace. The rich make money when it rains, snows, sleets, hails or when it is sunshiney and the birds sing. It doesn't mean they control the weather, it means they comtrol the money.

FDR would have been primarily concerned with getting reelected. Pearl Harbor was used against him in the next campaign. If he was smart enough to manipulate the Japanese Navy into thinkning they were secretly attacking the US Pacific Fleet then why wasn't he smart enough to know that? If he was willing to let American soldiers die at Pearl Harbor then why defeat Hitler and the Japanese at all? Why not just keep hostities going forever?

Please...this is important stuff. Try to actually respond to what was said instead of using attacks and misdirection by ignoring the facts of the case and accussing me of misdirection.

I am not a Roosevelt. I was not in World War II. I have no hidden agenda. I actually believe in many conspiracies. I believe in the ones that make sense and have evidence.

Yours passes neither test. It is, in fact, so devoid of evidence or logic that you refuse to present any.

If you want to discuss the JFK assasination then I can discuss it with evidence for days. I will, in fact, allow you to prove me wrong, if you could, because what I am interested in is what happened, not fighting a battle with my parents through proxy. You cannot discuss this rationally because you have no rational underpinnings to your argument.

Your only argument is that you know best. I don't buy it from Bush and I won't buy it from you.

[bpilgrim]

102. well first it reveals your hostility, bias and spin techiques

and now i am too busy and bored with your BS to bother. maybe another day.

peace

[Fight_n_back]

110. Hmmm...

that was not good scholarship on your part.

You think I have a bias because I require evidence before accussing someone of treason? Not just regular treason but what would be one of the worst crimes ever perpetrated by a US President or possibly any democracy.

You are willing to beleive anything that supports your predispostion towards assigning guilt. That sir, is the very definition of bias.

[stickdog]

123. My thesis is unassailable. Roosevelt was TRYING to get Japan to

attack.

He knew an attack was coming very soon.

But Short and Kimmel did NOT.

Therefore, either let it happen or he blew it. Either way, the outcome was the same. And either way, he got what he wanted.

It was EXACTLY like what got us into WWI, Vietnam and the War on Terra.

The players change, but the script doesn't.

[One_Life_To_Give]

66. ??

There is nothing unusual about spies watching ship movements — but reporting precise whereabouts of ships in dock has only one implication.

Submarine targets?


Since prior to the attack, the purpose of carriers was to provide a air umbrella over the fleet, not to engage in major combat. Not to mention the beleif that no ship of the line could be sunk by air power alone. How would the Japanes battle wagons get close enough to Pearl to launch a major attack. Our own ships of the line would have ample time to prepare. Heck Nagumo launched 8 hrs steaming from Pearl.



And finally what if Nagumo hadn't turned tail and delivered the attack Yamamoto intended? Our shgore installations were left untouched. Midway and Coral Sea never would have happened with our fleet being supported from San Diego.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. Yep...just as I thought. You haven't read "Day of Deceit" by Stinnett....

Read the book and then we'll talk. Right now, we're in a battle of wits, and you're unarmed.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. Have you read "Day of Deceit" or do you just have trouble letting...

...go of old information? What "evidence and logic" are you using when you refuse to even look at new facts in the case?

Contrary to the thinking of some people, history is not cast in concrete. Historians write books based on what they know at the time they write their books. History is constantly changing due to the historical research that is being done on a daily basis.

[TomNickell]

48. Conspiracy Hobbyists Never Sleep /nt

[Blue Wally]

71. They destroyed.....

Only the oldest and most obsolescent batleships. Most of the newer BB were in the Atlantic or on the west coast.

[lanparty]

28. The fleet had to protect most of the Pacific bases ...

They were expecting an attack at a far flung base. When one spreads themselves thin, you tend to miss things. Besides, this was an age when RADAR was "brand new". Spotting the Japanese fleet would have to be done by sighting.

Yeah, a fleet COULD slip right through if it went in the right direction.

If Roosevelt had truly known, he could have trapped that fleet and destroyed it outside of Pearl Harbor. Japan would have attacked America, so he would have had his war declaration. At that point, he could have actively helped England directly irregardless of declarations against Germany.

FDR was a brilliant man. He was president longer than any other man in the history of the United States. Try to give him a little credit for having brains.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. The U. S. intell guys were using good old radio direction-finding...

...as they intercepted and decoded the Japanese messages from their ships back to their home bases, and from ship to ship. Radar had nothing to do with how the Japanese were tracked.

On December 7, 1941, all of the major ships home-ported in Pearl Harbor were in port EXCEPT for the U. S. carriers. Why do you suppose NONE of the carriers were in port that day? Do you think it was just a happy accident?

[One_Life_To_Give]

58. Obviously

i ask any reasonable person to imagine anyone sneaking an entire japanese battle group across the pacific while we were ACTIVELY proding the japanese to war and us NOT noticing a thing :crazy:

Would have been as probable as US sneaking a carrier battle group across the Pacific and bombing Tokyo in the middle of a war. /sarcasm

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. Baloney.

[gandalf]

44. It has not been debunked many times

I suggest you read Day of Deceit. The author concludes that is was probably LIHOP, but he thinks it was the right thing to do, so he does not condemn FDR at all.

[nostamj]

16. you NEED to read Gore Vidal

Perpetural War for Perpetual Peace and Dreaming War

for the ugly facts...

[IkeWarnedUs]

21. Anyone remember the sunken Navy ship being found?

About 2 years ago (after 9/11) I read about how they found a Navy ship that was sunk outside the mouth of Pearl Harbor.

I remember the news story said there were rummors that the Japanese first sank a ship outside of Pearl Harbor and that the ship was supposed to have sent a warning to the base that was ignored. No one ever found the ship and the story was dismissed as another "conspiracy theory."

I thought I saved the story but I can't find it anywhere.

Does this ring anyone's bells?

[bpilgrim]

24. USS Ward sank the approaching Japanese sub at 6:45 a.m. on Dec. 7, 1941

The military says it inflicted the first casualties when the USS Ward sank the approaching Japanese sub at 6:45 a.m. on Dec. 7, 1941, about an hour before the aerial attack. Historians have had no proof of the sinking until Wednesday's discovery, researchers said.

more...
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/2002-08-29/usw_japanese_sub.asp

peace

[IkeWarnedUs]

35. Thank you, thank you, thank you

I have been trying to find the story for over a year. I got it kind of backwards (Japanese sub, not US Navy ship), but that is exactly what I have been looking for.

This is the paragraph that kept this in my mind for two years:

<snip>

Immediately following the sinking of the midget sub, the USS Ward sent the message: ``We have attacked, fired upon and dropped depth charges operating in defensive sea area.'' But the military base and ships were not immediately placed on alert, which would have prepared the United States for the ensuing attacks.

<snip>

Bpilgrim, you seem pretty well versed on Pearl Harbor. Does this seem like another nail in the "US LIHOP Pearl Harbor" coffin to you?

[bpilgrim]

36. no worries

and yes i think PH was a LIHOP and it could be argued/debated that it was a MIHOP with the 8 point plan to provoke the japanese as well.

but i think it is clear PH was a LIHOP.

peace

[Fight_n_back]

62. What?

Where do you make that leap?

It is the absolute opposite of LIHOP evidence. It is evidence that US ships fired at a Japanese ship.

Meaning, of course, that they didn't need to "let" them attack Pearl Harbor in order to engage the enemy.

Did you skip the last paragraph of the story?

[One_Life_To_Give]

67. What action do you want?

The ready duty Destroyer, Monaghan, was immediatly ordered to get underway to assist Ward. What more would you have done given the information from Ward? It's a submarine attack, you wouldn't expect the alarm to ring for the Army or for ships with no ASW capability. They followed normal proceedures for a possible sub attack.

[soundfury]

37. Well that does it, it was LIHOP but why?

thanks for the education!

[NecessaryOnslaught]

38. The answer to your question lies...

in this book.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/textbooks/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=mHu1SiENkb&isbn=0912986395&TXT=Y&itm=1

The creature from Jekyll Island is mainly about the machinations of the Federal Reserve (and other central banking systems), and although there is nothing specific about Pearl Harbor in the book, once you're done this masterpiece you will understand why all modern wars are waged. Included in this book is a chapter dedicated to another LIHOP, the sinking of the Lusitania.

[Fight_n_back]

65. That Griffin guy

is a complete whack job.

Virtually nothing in his "Reality Zone"is real.

Shrak Cartiledge for cancer? How about fairy dust?

[NecessaryOnslaught]

80. Dizzy yet Yang?

Your'e chock full of ad hominem attacks and short on facts. Of course you haven't read the book, just talking out of your ass. Of course wars aren't fought for monetary gain, they're fought for abstract terms like freedom and democracy. :eyes:

[Fight_n_back]

87. I wouldn't read his book

anymore than I would read a book by Bob Dornan.

Where are your facts?


We aren't talking about why WWII was fought. We are talking about whether FDR and about half the military and most of Congress allowed most of the Pacific fleet to be destroyed becase they knew about the attack beforehand.

Of course, your post is an ad hominem attack but thats because you have no facts whatsoever to support your case.

[NecessaryOnslaught]

90. What is your point?

I found it to be a well written and well researched book (on par with The Making of The Atomic bomb, and The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich) so I recommended it. Don't like the book? Don't fucking read it.

[stickdog]

96. You sound like a Repuke talking about F-9/11.

You realize this, of course?

[Fight_n_back]

111. Interesting attack since

you are quoting Holocaust deniers, right wing hacks and bad writers.

But when you have no case then attack.

[stickdog]

118. I'm not attacking. I'm telling it like it is. You just keep shooting the

messenger.

Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

Where have we seen this before? Oh, yeah. Whenever anybody questions 9/11 and the never ending War on Terra.

[WoodrowFan]

81. were you not paying attention? (NT)

[lanparty]

22. Military policy ...

The orders didn't come from Roosevelt. Pearl Harbor was apparantly considered "out of reach" of a Japanese attack.

[Djinn]

32. While I don't know enough about this to have a strong opinion

it seems patently obvious what was to be gained from it - Americans weren't too keen on the idea of fighting "Europe's war" - just like now without an attack on "our boys" there would never have been public consensus to go to war against Japan/Germany, and no US President wanted to sit back and watch the Japanese take over the Pacific.

Like I said I don't know myself but it seems pretty arrogant to insist that it's all right wing loon conspiracy stuff - if one is willing to beleive that the Bush admin should have (or did) know about 9/11 in advance but refuses to acknowledge that FDR may have had much the same reasoning to ignore pre-warning of a Pearl Harbour attack seems to be evidence that you live in a fairy land where only politicians on the right get involved in deceitful actions.

Which party was in government when the Gulf of Tonkin lie was floated?

[gandalf]

45. "pretty arrogant to insist that it's all right wing loon conspiracy stuff"

I agree. That is just too simple, and not based on available facts.

[stickdog]

41. Same as 9/11. Either they knew it or they blew it. (nt)

[gandalf]

46. Please have a look at Stinnett, "Day of Deceit"

Day Of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor, by Robert B. Stinnett

amazon:
"It was not long after the first Japanese bombs fell on the American naval ships at Pearl Harbor that conspiracy theories began to circulate, charging that Franklin Roosevelt and his chief military advisors knew of the impending attack well in advance. Robert Stinnett, who served in the U.S. Navy with distinction during World War II, examines recently declassified American documents and concludes that, far more than merely knowing of the Japanese plan to bomb Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt deliberately steered Japan into war with America."

[Fight_n_back]

51. Day of Deceit..indeed

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20000301fabook630/robert-b-stinnett/day-of-deceit-the-truth-about-f-d-r-and-pearl-harbor.html


"Stinnett has uncovered some nuggets of new evidence, but his most sensational items are premised on the false belief that American intelligence had broken the Japanese naval code before the attack. In fact, it was not decrypted until after Pearl Harbor."

//////////////////
It is well established that the SRN series of Japanese naval messages in the National Archives were decrypted in 1945-46 and translated in 1946-47, but Stinnett incorrectly suggests they may only have been transcribed at those times and that these decrypts (or at least some of them) were available not only in radio intelligence centers in Washington, but Stations Hypo (Rochefort) in Hawaii and Cast on Corregidor. Among other things, the book misinterprets an article by Captain Pelletier in the "Cryptolog." Even though Pelletier is now dead, he also wrote in the NCVA History Book that all such JN-25B raw messages were two months old by the time he saw them in Washington and that no Kido Butai transmissions while enroute from the Kuriles to Hawaii were ever found before or after 7 December 1941. Further, the book fails to inform its readers that Rochefort and his Hypo personnel were only assigned to and only worked on the unproductive Flag Officer's Code and not the main Japanese Fleet Code JN-25B as well as the fact that they were only given the go ahead to work on JN-25B a few days or so after the Pearl Harbor attack. As mentioned before, Stinnett also omits the well known information that JN-25B intercepts from Corregidor, Guam and Station H were only forwarded to Washington by mail and took up to two months to arrive mostly by ship and rail. Thus, even Washington's alleged 10 percent capability on JN-25B decrypts had not even begun to be applied to the November and December 1941 intercepts enroute there while Stinnett maintains they were available to all commanders except of course Kimmel and Short due to FDR's co-conspirators.
..................................
Although Stinnett obtained definite information from Captain Whitlock that no significant JN-25B decrypts were made by Station Cast on Corregidor during the period in question, he disputes this fact and misinterprets other documents and sources as proof that Whitlock is wrong. Some navy cryptologic veterans involved in this book have complained Stinnett gained their confidence by agreeing to tell their stories but ignored their version of events in favor of the monstrous conspiracy theory finalized in the book. Admiral Layton terminated his interview with the author, most likely when he learned where the book was going. It should be noted that it took OP-20-G some 14 months to read the much simpler JN-25A system that was used from 1 June 1939 to 1 December 1940. The book misleads its readers by not revealing there were two distinct codes, the earlier JN-25A and its much more complicated successor JN-25B used during the period in question and refers to them collectively as "Code Book D" or "5-Num code." Thus, the final successes of JN-25A are improperly imputed to JN-25B which was not read to any significant extent until March 1942 when the first published decrypt is found. The ever-increasing requirements to provide Japanese diplomatic decrypts and translations during 1941 took most of the time of navy cryptographers so that few people at both Washington and Station Cast were assigned to work on the new version of the Fleet Code, JN-25B. In addition, JN-25B used about eight additive cipher books up through 4 December 1941 further delaying the effort to read any significant amount of this new and far more complicated code and cipher combination.
..................................
Gross misinterpretations of two decrypts and translations in the SRN series at the National Archives make up the other parts of the book's centerpiece of its conspiracy theory. In an effort to give some credence to its allegation of a massive conspiracy, the book contradicts the plain meaning on the face of translations of these two decrypted messages, established Japanese naval communications practice, and standard decryption procedures. These messages were reported on long ago by Frederick D. Parker in "Cryptologia" Vol. 15 (4) p. 295. However, Parker fully reported that JN-25B was being decrypted at best on a 10 percent basis in Washington and those November and December 1941 raw messages discussed were enroute to Washington D.C. so that they were not available to be worked on until long after the Pearl Harbor attack. The glaring omission in the book of this vital "unavailability" information is instructive
.........................................
Stinnett also claims some 129 violations of radio silence during a 21 day period which he implies is from mid-November on. The figure of 60 actual radio transmissions by Admiral Nagumo being intercepted is ridiculous. Only a few were seen on the Tokyo broadcast and were not original radio transmissions. The messages were undoubtedly filed while in port by messenger, blinker or landline. None of these alleged transmissions by Nagumo were during his transit from Hitokappu Bay to Hawaii. The same for the 40 messages allegedly sent by radio by Kido Butai carrier commanders and units. Stinnett even makes the absurd claim that 25 messages sent on the Tokyo fleet broadcast by Yamamoto and other commands and ships were violations of radio silence. The reason for using the broadcast method of transmission from shore stations is to maintain radio silence by not requiring ships and commands to use their transmitters to receipt for messages.

http://www.usncva.org/books/book-10.html
/////////////////

[gandalf]

54. What is interesting is that

the Foreign Affairs (published by the CFR) reviewer is Philip Zelikow, executive director of the "National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States".

If one serves such a commission, it is certainly helpful to assume that there are no conspiracies.

Ironically, many conspiracy theories focus on the Council on Foreign Relations...

[Fight_n_back]

55. Isn't that damning the messenger?

the retired cryptologist makes a better case anyway.

I will take someone from the Council on Foreign Relations stating facts over a freind of Lew Rockwell spewing chisme anytime.


but then....Im probably part of the conspiracy.

[gandalf]

56. Why "damning"? That was only a remark.

But you are right, his review is not very concise anyway.

And naturally anybody who argues against conspiracy theories is part of the conspiracy, that makes them so attractive.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. Damn, Yang you are two for two with me this week

Excellent point.

[stickdog]

84. And you'll take the 9/11 Commission's word for 9/11 as well?

Open up your eyes.

[Fight_n_back]

88. What?

This is rich. You have NO EVIDENCE. You are blithely stating that FDR comitted treason with no REAL evidence. With noi evidence that hasn't been repudiated as either false, misunderstood or fabricated. You are supporting the work of right wing holocaust deniers and you want ME to open MY eyes?

You are suppossed to be opening my eyes. You don't have enopugh weight behind this argumanet to wake a baby from its afternoon nap.

[stickdog]

92. 1) Roosevelt wanted to provoke the Japanese into attacking us.

2) We had broken their diplomatic codes and knew an attack was imminent that day.

3) We sunk a sub more than an hour before the attack, but somehow our ships in the vicinity weren't put on high alert.

Before I go on, do you disagree with any of these statements?

BTW, what's your take on the sinking of the Lusitania? On KAL Flight 007? On the Gulf of Tonkin incident? On Operation Northwoods?

[Fight_n_back]

95. answers

1) I have no idea if that is true. It doesn't make sense that he would be itching for a two front war. The actual evidence suggest that he was most concerned about Germany. You state this as a fact. If you have reasons to think it is a fact then please provide your methodology for believeing so. I don't think it is true because of his correspondence with Churchill is almost completely about Germany even though US and British troops were already engaged with JApan.

2) It is not true that we broke their diplomatic codes before the attack. There has been a tremendous amount written about this. I have posted much of it in this quagmire of a thread.


3) Sinking a sub proves nothing. According to the article posted as irrefutable evidence that this proves LIHOP, the men on the ship weren't even sure if it was a submarine after they sunk it. When you go down this line of reasoning you are bringing in thousands of people into the conspiracy. Not just a few Skull and Bonesers but a significant portion of the officer corp.

Lusitania? I know it was carrying munitions and may have been a legitimate target. I doubt any politician would risk allowing an ocean liner to be sunk in order to get into a war that he was about to join anyway. The downside is too great if he's caught. If you have EVIDENCE then by all means produce it.

KAL Flight 007 had some wonderful detective work done on it. The "scandal" there is that RWers in the White House used it for political gain when all EVIDENCE showed it to be an explainable accident. If you are going to tell me that the Soviet Union worked ion concert with Reagan to bring us to the brink of a nuclear war then you had better come with something firmer than conjecture.

In short, it is most likely that the USSR thought it was an AWACS. They ahd their own internal investigation on it as well and many officers were fired and their fire and control system was reworked.

The Gulf of Tonkin? In the very least, it was a minor incident that was blown out of proportion in order to escalate our involvement in Vietnam. At the worst, it didn't happen at all. The escalation was happening anyway, it cost LBJ his presidency and we lost the war. So, ya know, the best laid plans...

Operation Northwoods? What about it? It was a memo.

There is plenty of REAL stuff to get pissed about. There is CIA drug trafficking, American support of Central American terrorists, our undeclared war in Columbia, the Bush/Suadi connection, the corporate stranglehold on the US government. These things are all provable facts and are things that actually affect people's lives.

I love conspiracy theories. I study many of them particularly JFK and RFK. But for me to have fun with them...they kinda have to be true.

[stickdog]

97. Do yourself a big favor and just read the book, YANG.

http://www.pearlharbor41.com/comments.htm

Many of us who are veterans of World War II's Pacific Theater of Operations have always suspected that the December 7, 1941, Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was deliberately provoked. A half century later, Robert Stinnett has come up with most of the smoking guns. Day of Deceit shows that the famous 'surprise' attack was no surprise to our war-minded rulers, and that the three thousand American military men killed and wounded one Sunday morning in Hawaii were, to our rulers and their present avatars, a small price to pay for that 'global empire' over which we now so ineptly preside."
--GORE VIDAL

"Step by step, Stinnett goes through the prelude to war, using new documents to reveal the terrible secrets that have never before been disclosed to the public. It is disturbing that eleven presidents, including those I admired, kept the truth from the public until Stinnett's Freedom of Information Act requests finally persuaded the Navy to release the evidence."
--JOHN TOLAND, PULITZER PRIZE--WINNING AUTHOR OF INFAMY

"After what went on in Europe, no one can say our wartime President was wrong to go to war against the Axis, but we have the right to discover how he did it, and a historical obligation to clear the names of persons wrongly blamed. Robert Stinnett, using the Freedom of Information Act, has spent sixteen years delving into our national archives on this subject. There was obvious concealment, but not everything could be covered up and the result is eye-opening."
--EDWARD L. BEACH, AUTHOR OF SCAPEGOATS: A DEFENSE OF KIMMEL AND SHORT AT PEARL HARBOR AND OF RUN SILENT, RUN DEEP

"Pearl Harbor. Anyone interested in the subject must read Day of Deceit. It contains new and frightening documentation about what caused America's greatest military disaster. It is one of the most important books about Pearl Harbor in recent memory; it will also create a firestorm of debate about our nation's military and civilian leadership as America was swept into World War II."
--BRUCE LEE, COAUTHOR OF PEARL HARBOR: FINAL JUDGEMENT AND AUTHOR OF MARCHING ORDERS: THE UNTOLD STORY OF WORLD WAR II


http://www.pearlharbor41.com/reviews.htm

There is plenty of news value to Stinnett's book. Why? Because he has amassed evidence that yields... a far more precise knowledge of who knew what and when than any previous author has presented."
-Steve Weinberg, The San Francisco Chronicle

It is difficult, after reading this copiously documented book, no to wonder about previously unchallenged assumptions about Pearl Harbor."
-Richard Bernstein, The New York Times Book Review

"A fascinating and readable book that is exceptionally well presented."
-Bruce Bartlett, The Wall Street Journal

"Stinnett has made a sickening discovery through the Freedom of Information Act...FDR must have known...Day Of Deceit is perhaps the most revelatory document of our time."
-Tom Roeser, Chicago Sun-Times

"Thanks to Stinnett's thorough research, those who will debate this topic in the future will have a fuller picture of the real story behind the 'Day of Infamy.' "
-Ed Halloran, Rocky Mountain News

"Backed by seventeen years of research and using more than two hundred thousand interviews and newly declassified documents, Stinnett makes devastating revelations.... a model researcher....December 7, 1941 is indeed 'a date that will live in infamy.' Thanks to Stinnett, we now know where the infamy really lay. A sobering blockbuster, an absorbing read, and a model of revisionist history, Day Of Deceit does much to unmask the awful truth about Pearl Harbor. All Americans interested in our entry into World War II- or concerned with our government's trustworthiness-should read it."
-John Attarian, The Detroit News

"Stinnett makes points that disturb conventional thinking about the Pearl harbor attack."
-Lynwood Abraham, Houston Chronicle

"Explosive, revealing, and disturbing, Day of Deceit gets to the heart of the debate about America's leadership as the nation was was swept into the war. A triumph of historical scholarship and a valuable contribution to the record of World War II."
-Michael D. Hull, World War II Magazine

"Robert Stinnett has come as close as any mortal will to proving not only that the president had a pretty shrewd idea the Japanese planned to attack, but that he did everything in his power, short of declaring war, to make sure they would. After almost sixty years and the destruction of intelligence documents- a single ' smoking gun ' will never be found. But the case put together by Stinnett during thirteen years of research, painstaking use of the Freedom of Information Act, and interviews with participants, is more than persuasive."
-Rupert Cornwell, The London Independent

[Fight_n_back]

113. There is more than just one book available

I notice you didn't respond to the post of mine that refutes virtually every claiom made in Stinnetts book.

Perhaps you didn't see it?

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stickdog]

83. Interesting? It's positively damning.

I suppose it's just a coincidence that our foremost whitewasher was hired to head the review of both these incidents.

[stickdog]

105. The Council of Foreign Relations is hardly a disinterested neutral party.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north26.html

The final product of the Council on Foreign Relations’ investment of $139,000 in 1946 – a lot of money in 1946 – was the standard Establishment history of the coming of the war, written by William L. Langer and S. Everett Gleason, The Challenge to Isolation: The World Crisis of 1937-1940 and American Foreign Policy (1952). It was still the standard account two decades later. Its perspective remains dominant on campus today. Langer was a professor of history at Harvard. So was Gleason – medieval history – until he moved to Washington after Pearl Harbor, to join the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), the precursor of the CIA. He later became the official historian of the State Department. Establishment enough for you? (The other standard book was Herbert Feis’s Road to Pearl Harbor (1950). He had served as the State Department’s Advisor for International Economic Affairs.) Yes, the victors always write the history books, but when the historians are actually policy-setting participants in the war, the words "court history" take on new meaning.

[stickdog]

131. Stinnett answers .

http://www.pearlharbor41.com/news.htm

Lieutenant Commander Jacobsen's claim that Japanese radio deception duped the brilliant U.S. naval cryptologists prior to 7 December 1941 is directly contradicted by pre-Pearl Harbor evidence gathered by the cryptologists and the Navy's intelligence community. The evidence , reported in my book, Day of Deceit ( New York Free Press 1999 ) ,is overwhelming. Foremost is the written record of Commander Joseph J. Rochefort , the commander of Station HYPO. (the radio intelligence center for the Pacific Fleet) and co-founder of the Navy's intelligence division.

In his oral history conducted by the U.S. Naval Institute, Rochefort denied that any of his staff were fooled by pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese radio deception. "It is awfully difficult to deceive a trained countercommunications intelligence organization, awfully difficult," Rochefort said.

Supporting Rochefort's denial are the written records of Station H (Territory of Hawaii) and Station AE( Sitka, Territory of Alaska).

On 5 December 1941, Paul E. Seaward, one of the U.S. Navy's highly trained radio cryptographers at Station H, intercepted Japanese naval air stations at Kanoya, Omura, and Yokosuka transmitting tactical radio messages to a radio call sign of 1 NI KU. Seaward instantly recognized Japanese call sign was bogus, and did not record the intercepts in the official Station H radio log. There is no Japanese tactical radio call sign of 1 NI KU listed in the December 1941 records of either Japan or the United States.

The Sitka radio traffic chief , Fred R. Thomson, discovered similar subterfuge. He also warned of radio deception, pointing out that the Japanese air station at Kasumigaura was using its own transmitter and sending radio messages to itself. Other monitor stations of the West Coast Communications Intelligence Network based at Seattle's Station SAIL issued similar warnings.

Commander Jacobsen belittles Rochefort's intercept of 30 November 1941, in which the intelligence expert disclosed that the aircraft carrier Akagi, flagship of the Japanese Hawaii force, was in tactical radio communication with "several marus." On that date, the carrier and its group were in the north Pacific, midway toward Hawaii. According to official Japanese naval records, as well as those of U.S. Navy, the Akagi's task force was accompanied to Hawaii by several merchant tankers conscripted into naval service.

In the effort to bolster his discredited "radio silence doctrine," Commander Jacobsen misrepresented Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's radio policy. On 25 November, the admiral issued a fleet radio communications policy that contained three provisos allowing fleet units to break radio silence:"1.Except in extreme emergency, the main force and its attached force will cease communicating. 2. Other forces are at the discretion of their respective commanders. 3. Supply ships, etc., will report directly to parties concerned."

According to Rochefort, three Japanese Navy officers were quick to use proviso number two: the admirals in command of the forces attacking Hawaii, Wake, and Guam. In a secret report to Admiral Husband Kimmel, Commander-in-Chief of the Pacific Fleet, dated 25 November, Rochefort reported the three talkative admirals were in :extensive communication" with one another. One of them was Vice Admiral Chuichi Nagumo, commander of the Hawaii raid. The two others were Vice Admiral Mitsumi Shimizu, head of Japan's submarine fleet, and Vice Admiral Shigeyoshi Inoue, commander of Japan's Pacific Invasion forces. In their "extensive communication" on board their flagships, the talkative commanders compromised their security.

[gandalf]

47. Most important points from "Day of Deceit"

according to an amazon.com customer review ( stunning-reversal.com)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743201299/qid=1088675358/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/102-2722574-5562567?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

"Day of Deceit" provides compelling evidence that President Franklin Delano Roosevelt deliberately provoked Japan to attack the American Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor so that America could enter the war on the allied side. Stinnett, a distinguished World War II navy veteran who researched his subject for over sixteen years, provides the following evidence:

1. A naval intelligence officer named Arthur McCollum developed an eight-point plan to provoke Japanese hostilities. This plan reached Roosevelt who implemented all eight points.

2. Contrary to popular belief, the Japanese navy broke radio silence on multiple occasions prior to December 7, 1941.

3. More than 94% of all secret Japanese naval messages (including some with direct reference to the impending attack on Pearl Harbor) were successfully decoded by American intelligence units prior to December 7, 1941

4. Roosevelt implemented a change of naval command that placed proponents of the eight-point-provocation plan in key positions of power. However, the newly promoted commander of Pearl Harbor, Admiral Husband Kimmel was consistently denied access to vital decoded translations of Japanese naval communications.

5. Naval Intelligence and the FBI successfully monitored the communication of Japanese intelligence agents in Hawaii for months. These communications, which included a bombing grid map of Pearl Harbor, revealed Japan's intent.

6. Much of the information successfully collected and analyzed by American Intelligence organizations prior to December 7, 1941 was reinforced by information from British and Dutch intelligence.

7. A sophisticated radio tracking system spanning from Alaska to Indonesia enabled America to track Japanese commercial and military shipping patterns. These patterns, including the movement of carrier groups and recall of worldwide merchant ships pointed to an obvious prelude to hostilities several months before December 7th.

8. Most of the critical U.S. Pacific Fleet components such as heavy cruisers and aircraft carriers were not in Pearl Harbor during the bombing. In fact the only ships that were sunk were WW I relics.

9. Much of the documented information was censored or withheld from the public for decades and continues to be to this day.

10. In early 1941 Roosevelt divided the U.S. Navy into an Atlantic and Pacific command and ordered fleet construction, which included one hundred aircraft carriers to be completed by 1943. This indicates that the losses at Pearl Harbor would not interfere with America's larger war aims and with war production that supported those aims.

These facts are well documented and reinforced with repeated examples. Perhaps the most compelling part of the book is that photocopies of evidence including the eight-point plan are provided in a massive appendix. Simply put, you can see the evidence for yourself.

Interestingly enough, Stinnett never condemns Roosevelt or his cohorts and even agrees to some extent with their rationale that sacrificing a few men and ships at Pearl Harbor was ultimately worth preventing a complete Axis victory in World War II.

[One_Life_To_Give]

74. But;

Guess I will have to read the book. But just a couple comments on these points;

1. an eight-point plan to provoke Japanese hostilities.
Yes we provoked the Japanese into attacking us so we could get into the war.

2. Japanese navy broke radio silence on multiple occasions prior to December 7, 1941.
Lots of communications were intercepted from Truk, which was a major Japanes naval base. Japanese intel. kept up communications to confuse US listening posts as to the location of their ships.

5. These communications, which included a bombing grid map of Pearl Harbor, revealed Japan's intent.

Is this a in Hindsight bombing grid, that could also be used for sabotage or general inteligence?

8. Most of the critical U.S. Pacific Fleet components such as heavy cruisers and aircraft carriers were not in Pearl Harbor during the bombing. In fact the only ships that were sunk were WW I relics.
The ships sunk at Pearl were relics? They were constructed to the treaty at the end of WW1. Limiting the size and number of battlewagons allowed. In hindsight they were pitifully short of AAA. But that wasn't the feeling or the war plans on 12/6/41

[JohnOneillsMemory]

52. Yes. Documented thoroughly. Read this link, ignore the rhetoric.

FDR let Pearl Harbor Happen documented
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

This is from a site arguing that 9/11 was a Mossad operation and cites Pearl Harbor as a precedent for intentional disaster to create public support for war.

There is some nasty rhetoric about 'FDR' saving his beloved communist slave masters' but the documentation on the Pearl Harbor scenario is voluminous and quite damning.

[Cheswick2.0]

59. no it was not

That has been debunked time after time.

[gandalf]

73. You think you need no argument if you post your claim twice?

You seem to be a bit lazy.

[Cheswick2.0]

60. no it was not

That has been debunked time after time.

[starroute]

68. Anti-New Dealers and the America First Committee (and the BFEE)

Whatever may be the truth about Pearl Harbor, it has to be understood within the political context of the time. In the late 30's, the right-wing in America was reorganizing itself, trying to play down its fascist connections, and making hatred of FDR and the New Deal its new rallying point. That visceral hatred has been at the heart of right-wing politics down to the present moment.

In 1940-41, the heart of the reorganized right wing was the America First Committee. The nominal purpose of this group was to oppose American entry into World War II, and as such it was able to appeal to a wide spectrum of supporters. There was a great deal of isolationist feeling in the US, on the left as well as on the right, fueled in part by the Nye Committee hearings of a few years earlier which had revealed the role of arms merchants in dragging the US into World War I. But although the America First Committee did eventually exclude some of the more notorious pro-fascists of the time -- like Henry Ford and Avery Brundage -- its core was always a small group of extreme anti-Roosevelt right-wingers.

The chairman of America First was General Robert E. Wood, head of the board of Sears, Roebuck. Wood's daughter Mary was the wife of William Stamps Farish, Jr., whose father was the president of Standard Oil who would get in trouble in 1942 for continuing to do business with the Nazis after the outbreak of war. George H.W. and Barbara Bush were very close to Mary in the 1940's, and her son, William Stamps Farish 3rd, is both a close friend of Bush Sr. and Bush Jr.'s recently-resigned ambassador to Great Britain.

A listing of Wood's correspondence from the 1940's and 1950's at http://www.ecommcode2.com/hoover/research/historicalmaterials/other/wood.htm shows him in contact with a whole range of right-wingers, Nazi apologists, and McCarthyites. One of these was John T. Flynn, a fellow founder of the America First Committee and the originator of the charge that Roosevelt caused Pearl Harbor. The note on Wood's correspondence with Flynn cites "Pearl Harbor investigation by War Dept and Flynn's book on Pearl Harbor."

Wood's correspondents also included other revisionist historians, like Harry Elmer Barnes and Maj. George Racey Jordan. One objective of these revisionists was to prove that World War II was not really a just war and that Germany was not responsible for starting it. The other was to blame Roosevelt for everything from Pearl Harbor to selling out to Stalin. After World War II, they moved seamlessly into accusing "communists in the State Department" of deliberately handing over China to communism. The wilder charges of Joe McCarthy (with whom Wood also corresponded) came out of this revisionist context.

There were a lot of strange things going on during the 1940-44 period, and I don't believe we've ever been told the truth about all of them. For example, in 1944, there was a sedition trial in which twenty-nine extreme right-wing defendents were charged with charged with conspiring to undermine the morale of the armed forces in violation of the Smith Act of 1940. (Wood was in correspondence at the time with one of them, American fascist Lawrence Dennis.) The right has always painted this as an attempt to suppress freedom of speech -- and the charge of conspiracy against a miscellaneous group of right-wing writers does seem to have been stretching things a bit. But I believe the Roosevelt administration was genuinely terrified of right-wing subversion during the war, far more than was ever publicly acknowledged.

This is why I say that whether or not Pearl Harbor was LIHOP, it has to be understood in the context of the right-wing activity of the time. Perhaps it was all trumped-up charges meant to discredit FDR and the idea that World War II was a good war. Or just possibly it was FDR feeling the need to do an end run around powerful and unscrupulous pro-German interests in this country that he knew would do anything to help insure Hitler's victory in Europe.

In either case, the direct heirs of those anti-Roosevelt right-wingers and fascists have now made the idea of Pearl Harbor their own -- but with a twist. For them, it is the model of a way in which a small group can use shock and awe to manipulate public opinion and force an agenda on the country that is not in its own interests.

[soundfury]

72. Fascinating stuff guys

<<This is why I say that whether or not Pearl Harbor was LIHOP, it has to be understood in the context of the right-wing activity of the time. Perhaps it was all trumped-up charges meant to discredit FDR and the idea that World War II was a good war. Or just possibly it was FDR feeling the need to do an end run around powerful and unscrupulous pro-German interests in this country that he knew would do anything to help insure Hitler's victory in Europe.

In either case, the direct heirs of those anti-Roosevelt right-wingers and fascists have now made the idea of Pearl Harbor their own -- but with a twist. For them, it is the model of a way in which a small group can use shock and awe to manipulate public opinion and force an agenda on the country that is not in its own interests.>>

[Fight_n_back]

93. I am a little shocked

that people on DU would be duped by these people. I understand why some of them fall for the crap on sites like "whatreallyhappened", blame the Jews has always been popular. But this Pearl Harbor thing is such a blatant RW con that I would think almost any progressive would step back and say "waht?" and demand some kind of actual evidence.

O.J. defense team had better evidence.

[stickdog]

99. I'm not shocked that your first defense is always "kill the messenger."

Which of these points do you take issue with?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html


1) 1904 - The Japanese destroyed the Russian navy in a surprise attack in undeclared war.

2) 1932 - In The Grand Joint Army Navy Exercises the attacker, Admiral Yarnell, attacked with 152 planes a half-hour before dawn 40 miles NE of Kahuku Point and caught the defenders of Pearl Harbor completely by surprise. It was a Sunday.

3) 1938 - Admiral Ernst King led a carrier-born airstrike from the USS Saratoga successfully against Pearl Harbor in another exercise.

4) 1940 - FDR ordered the fleet transferred from the West Coast to its exposed position in Hawaii and ordered the fleet remain stationed at Pearl Harbor over complaints by its commander Admiral Richardson that there was inadequate protection from air attack and no protection from torpedo attack. Richardson felt so strongly that he twice disobeyed orders to berth his fleet there and he raised the issue personally with FDR in October and he was soon after replaced. His successor, Admiral Kimmel, also brought up the same issues with FDR in June 1941.

5) 7 Oct 1940 - Navy IQ analyst McCollum wrote an 8 point memo on how to force Japan into war with US. Beginning the next day FDR began to put them into effect and all 8 were eventually accomplished.

6) 11 November 1940 - 21 aged British planes destroyed the Italian fleet, including 3 battleships, at their homeport in the harbor of Taranto in Southern Italy by using technically innovative shallow-draft torpedoes.

7) 11 February 1941 - FDR proposed sacrificing 6 cruisers and 2 carriers at Manila to get into war. Navy Chief Stark objected: "I have previously opposed this and you have concurred as to its unwisdom. Particularly do I recall your remark in a previous conference when Mr. Hull suggested (more forces to Manila) and the question arose as to getting them out and your 100% reply, from my standpoint, was that you might not mind losing one or two cruisers, but that you did not want to take a chance on losing 5 or 6." (Charles Beard PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT AND THE COMING OF WAR 1941, p 424)

8) March 1941 - FDR sold munitions and convoyed them to belligerents in Europe -- both acts of war and both violations of international law -- the Lend-Lease Act.

9) 23 Jun 1941 - Advisor Harold Ickes wrote FDR a memo the day after Germany invaded the Soviet Union, "There might develop from the embargoing of oil to Japan such a situation as would make it not only possible but easy to get into this war in an effective way. And if we should thus indirectly be brought in, we would avoid the criticism that we had gone in as an ally of communistic Russia." FDR was pleased with Admiral Richmond Turner's report read July 22: "It is generally believed that shutting off the American supply of petroleum will lead promptly to the invasion of Netherland East Indies...it seems certain she would also include military action against the Philippine Islands, which would immediately involve us in a Pacific war." On July 24 FDR told the Volunteer Participation Committee, "If we had cut off the oil off, they probably would have gone down to the Dutch East Indies a year ago, and you would have had war." The next day FDR froze all Japanese assets in US cutting off their main supply of oil and forcing them into war with the US. Intelligence information was withheld from Hawaii from this point forward.

10) 14 August - At the Atlantic Conference, Churchill noted the "astonishing depth of Roosevelt's intense desire for war." Churchill cabled his cabinet "(FDR) obviously was very determined that they should come in."

11) 18 October - diary entry by Secretary of Interior Harold Ickes: "For a long time I have believed that our best entrance into the war would be by way of Japan."


WARNINGS

A) 7 January 1941, Dr. Ricardo Shreiber, the Peruvian envoy in Tokyo told Max Bishop, third secretary of the US embassy that he had just learned from his intelligence sources that there was a war plan involving a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. This information was sent to the State Department and Naval Intelligence and to Admiral Kimmel at Hawaii.

B) 31 March 1941 - A Navy report by Bellinger and Martin predicted that if Japan made war on the US, they would strike Pearl Harbor without warning at dawn with aircraft from a maximum of 6 carriers. For years Navy planners had assumed that Japan, on the outbreak of war, would strike the American fleet wherever it was. The fleet was the only threat to Japan's plans. Logically, Japan couldn't engage in any major operation with the American fleet on its flank. The strategic options for the Japanese were not unlimited.

C) 10 July - US Military Attache Smith-Hutton at Tokyo reported Japanese Navy secretly practicing aircraft torpedo attacks against capital ships in Ariake Bay. The bay closely resembles Pearl Harbor.

D) July - The US Military Attache in Mexico forwarded a report that the Japanese were constructing special small submarines for attacking the American fleet in Pearl Harbor, and that a training program then under way included towing them from Japan to positions off the Hawaiian Islands, where they practiced surfacing and submerging.

E) 10 August 1941, the top British agent, code named "Tricycle", Dusko Popov, told the FBI of the planned attack on Pearl Harbor and that it would be soon. The FBI told him that his information was "too precise, too complete to be believed. The questionnaire plus the other information you brought spell out in detail exactly where, when, how, and by whom we are to be attacked. If anything, it sounds like a trap." He also reported that a senior Japanese naval person had gone to Taranto to collect all secret data on the attack there and that it was of utmost importance to them. The info was given to Naval IQ.

F) Early in the Fall, Kilsoo Haan, an agent for the Sino-Korean People's League, told Eric Severeid of CBS that the Korean underground in Korea and Japan had positive proof that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor before Christmas. Among other things, one Korean had actually seen the plans. In late October, Haan finally convinced US Senator Guy Gillette that the Japanese were planning to attack in December or January. Gillette alerted the State Department, Army and Navy Intelligence and FDR personally.

G) 24 September 1941, the " bomb plot" message in J-19 code from Japan Naval Intelligence to Japan' s consul general in Honolulu requesting grid of exact locations of ships pinpointed for the benefit of bombardiers and torpedo pilots was deciphered. There was no reason to know the EXACT location of ships in harbor, unless to attack them - it was a dead giveaway. Chief of War Plans Turner and Chief of Naval Operations Stark repeatedly kept it and warnings based on it prepared by Safford and others from being passed to Hawaii. The chief of Naval Intelligence Captain Kirk was replaced because he insisted on warning HI. It was lack of information like this that lead to the exoneration of the Hawaii commanders and the blaming of Washington for unpreparedness for the attack by the Army Board and Navy Court. At no time did the Japanese ever ask for a similar bomb plot for any other American military installation. Why the Roosevelt administration allowed flagrant Japanese spying on PH has never been explained, but they blocked 2 Congressional investigations in the fall of 1941 to allow it to continue. The bomb plots were addressed to "Chief of 3rd Bureau, Naval General Staff", marked Secret Intelligence message, and given special serial numbers, so their significance couldn't be missed. There were about 95 ships in port. The text was:

"Strictly secret.

"Henceforth, we would like to have you make reports concerning vessels
along the following lines insofar as possible:

"1. The waters (of Pearl Harbor) are to be divided roughly into five
subareas (We have no objections to your abbreviating as much as you
like.)

"Area A. Waters between Ford Island and the Arsenal.
"Area B. Waters adjacent to the Island south and west of Ford Island.
(This area is on the opposite side of the Island from Area A.)
"Area C. East Loch.
"Area D. Middle Loch.
"Area E. West Loch and the communication water routes.

"2. With regard to warships and aircraft carriers, we would like to have
you report on those at anchor (these are not so important) tied up at
wharves, buoys and in docks. (Designate types and classes briefly. If
possible we would like to have you make mention of the fact when
there are two or more vessels along side the same wharf.)"

H) Oct. - Soviet top spy Richard Sorge, the greatest spy in history, informed Kremlin that Pearl Harbor would be attacked within 60 days. Moscow informed him that this was passed to the US. Interestingly, all references to Pearl Harbor in the War Department's copy of Sorge's 32,000 word confession to the Japanese were deleted. NY Daily News, 17 May 1951.

I) 13 Nov. - The German Ambassador to US, Dr. Thomsen an anti-Nazi, told US IQ that Pearl Harbor would be attacked.

J) 22 Nov. - Tokyo said to Ambassador Nomura in Washington about extending the deadline for negotiations to November 29: "...this time we mean it, that the deadline absolutely cannot be changed. After that things are automatically going to happen."

K) CIA Director Allen Dulles told people that US was warned in mid-November that the Japanese Fleet had sailed east past Tokyo Bay and was going to attack Pearl Harbor. CIA FOIA

L) 23 Nov. - JN25 order - "The first air attack has been set for 0330 hours on X-day." (Tokyo time or 8 A.M. Honolulu time)

M) 25 Nov. - British decrypted the Winds setup message sent Nov. 19. The US decoded it Nov. 28. It was a J-19 Code message that there would be an attack and that the signal would come over Radio Tokyo as a weather report - rain meaning war, east (Higashi) meaning US.

N) 25 Nov. - Secretary of War Stimson noted in his diary "FDR stated that we were likely to be attacked perhaps as soon as next Monday." FDR asked: "the question was how we should maneuver them into the position of firing the first shot without too much danger to ourselves. In spite of the risk involved, however, in letting the Japanese fire the first shot, we realized that in order to have the full support of the American people it was desirable to make sure that the Japanese be the ones to do this so that there should remain no doubt in anyone's mind as to who were the aggressors."

O) 25 Nov. - Navy Department ordered all US trans-Pacific shipping to take the southern route. PHH 12:317 (PHH = 1946 Congressional Report, vol. 12, page 317) ADM Turner testified "We sent the traffic down to the Torres Straight, so that the track of the Japanese task force would be clear of any traffic." PHH 4:1942

P) 25 Nov. - Yamamoto radioed this order in JN-25: " (a) The task force, keeping its movements strictly secret and maintaining close guard against submarines and aircraft, shall advance into Hawaiian waters and upon the very opening of hostilities, shall attack the main force of the United States Fleet in Hawaii and deal it a mortal blow. The raid is planned for dawn on X-day -- exact date to be given by later order. (b) Should the negotiations with the US prove successful, the task force shall hold itself in readiness forthwith to return and reassemble. (c) The task force will move out of Hitokappu Wan on the morning of 26 November and advance to the standing-by position on the afternoon of 4 December and speedily complete refueling." ( Order to sail - scan from the PHA Congressional Hearings Report, vol 1 p 180, transcript p 437-8) This was decoded by the British on November 25 and the Dutch on November 27. When it was decoded by the US is a national secret, however, on November 26 Naval Intelligence reported the concentration of units of the Japanese fleet at an unknown port ready for offensive action.

Q) # 27 Nov. - Secretary of War Stimson sent a confused and confusing hostile action possible or DO-DON'T warning. The Navy Court found this message directed attention away from Pearl Harbor, rather than toward it. One purpose of the message was to mislead HI into believing negotiations were continuing. The Army which could not do reconnaissance was ordered to and the Navy which could was ordered not to. The Army was ordered on sabotage alert, which specifically precluded attention to outside threat. Navy attention was misdirected 5000 miles from HI. DC repeated, no less than three times as a direct instruction of the President, "The US desires that Japan commit the first overt act Period." It was unusual that FDR directed this warning, a routine matter, to Hawaii which is proof that he knew other warnings were not sent. A simple question--what Japanese "overt act" was FDR expecting at Pearl Harbor? He ordered sabotage prevented and subs couldn't enter, that leaves air attack. The words "overt act" disclose FDR's intent - not just that Japan be allowed to attack but that they inflict damage on the fleet. This FDR order to allow a Japanese attack was aid to the enemy - explicit treason.

R) 29 Nov.- Hull sat in Layfayette Park across from the White House with ace United Press reporter Joe Leib and showed him a message stating that Pearl Harbor would be attacked on December 7. This could well have been the Nov. 26 message from Churchill. The New York Times in its 12/8/41 PH report on page 13 under the headline "Attack Was Expected" stated the US had known that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked the week before. Perhaps Leib wasn't the only reporter Hull told.

S) 29 Nov. - The FBI embassy tap made an intercept of an uncoded plain-text Japanese telephone conversation in which an Embassy functionary (Kurusu) asked 'Tell me, what zero hour is. Otherwise, I won't be able to carry on diplomacy.' The voice from Tokyo (K. Yamamoto) said softly, 'Well then, I will tell you. Zero hour is December 8 (Tokyo time, ie, December 7 US time) at Pearl Harbor.' (US Navy translation 29 Nov)

T) 30 Nov. US Time (or 1 Dec. Tokyo time) - The Japanese fleet was radioed this Imperial Naval Order (JN-25): "JAPAN, UNDER THE NECESSITY OF HER SELF-PRESERVATION AND SELF-DEFENSE, HAS REACHED A POSITION TO DECLARE WAR ON THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA." (Congress Appendix D, p 415). US ally China also recovered it in plain text from a shot-down Japanese Army plane near Canton that evening. This caused an emergency Imperial Conference because they knew the Chinese would give the information to GB and US. In a related J-19 message the next day, the US translated elaborate instructions from Japan dealing in precise detail with the method of internment of American and British nationals in Asia "on the outbreak of war with England and the United States"
# 1 Dec. - Office of Naval Intelligence, ONI, Twelfth Naval District in San Francisco found the missing Japanese fleet by correlating reports from the four wireless news services and several shipping companies that they were getting strange signals west of Hawaii. The Soviet Union also knew the exact location of the Japanese fleet because they asked the Japanese in advance to let one of their ships pass (Layton p 261). This info was most likely given to them by US because Sorge's spy ring was rolled up November 14. All long-range PBY patrols from the Aleutians were ordered stopped on Dec 6 to prevent contact.

U) 1 Dec. - The tanker Shiriya, which had been added to the Striking Force in an order intercepted Nov 14, radioed "proceeding to a position 30.00 N, 154.20 E. Expect to arrive at that point on 3 December." (near HI) The fact that this message is in the National Archives destroys the myth that the attack fleet maintained radio silence. They were not ordered to (Order 820). Serial numbers prove that the Striking Force sent over 663 radio messages between Nov 16 and Dec 7 or about 1 per hour. The NSA has not released any raw intercepts because the headers would prove that the Striking Force did not maintain radio silence. On Nov 29 the Hiyei sent one message to the Commander of the 3rd fleet; on Nov 30 the Akagi sent several messages to its tankers - see page 474 of the Hewitt Report. Stinnett in DAY OF DECEIT (p 209) found over 100 messages from the Striking Force in the National Archives. All Direction Finding reports from HI have been crudely cut out. Reports from Dec 5 show messages sent from the Striking Force picked up by Station Cast, P.I.

V) From traffic analysis, HI reported that the carrier force was at sea and in the North. THE MOST AMAZING FACT is that in reply to that report, MacArthur's command sent a series of three messages, Nov 26, 29, Dec 2, to HI lying about the location of the carrier fleet - saying it was in the South China Sea. This false information, which the NSA calls inexplicable, was the true reason that HI was caught unawares. Duane Whitlock, who is still alive in Iowa, sent those messages.

W) # 4 Dec. - In the early hours, Ralph Briggs at the Navy's East Coast Intercept station, received the "East Winds, Rain" message, the Winds Execute, which meant war. He put it on the TWX circuit immediately and called his commander. This message was deleted from the files. One of the main coverups of Pearl Harbor was to make this message disappear. Japanese Dispatch # 7001. In response to the Winds Execute, the Office of US Naval IQ had all Far Eastern stations (Hawaii not informed) destroy their codes and classified documents including the Tokyo Embassy.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stickdog]

120. Cut and run. How predictably weak.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/

Look at the site. Read the linked articles.

Anybody looking for for the truth is my ally. Anybody spreading lies is my enemy. When it comes to questioning authority, the left/right spectrum is more like a circle than a line.

[CPops57]

75. The books I've read on FDR suggest....

....that he desperately wanted to get in the European War.

And we do know there are weird facts about what happened at Pearl Harbor.

I don't definitively know what happened that day, but I think there's room for some discussion on this topic.

[Dems Will Win]

78. This is Dems Will Win, and FDR is my hero.

But he clearly knew how and when PH would occur. Didn't FOI Act releases prove the Naval Intercepts were real. That settled it for me. I heard FDR, through the intercepts, even saw the bombing runs right over the ships, and exulted to George Marshall while slamming his hand on the intercept, "Now that's what I call an overt act!"

Neither PH nor 9/11 could have happened without inside help.

Anybody who thinks that is a COINCIDENCE NUT, BELIEVING IN OUTLANDISH COINCIDENCE THEORIES THAT DISMISS HUNDREDS OF OUTRAGEOUS COINCIDENCES BEHIND BOTH WORLD-CHANGING EVENTS!

And thank God, FDR did it. Don't forget Hitler had taken over all of Europe and still FDR couldn't beat the America Firsters on going to war. He had to do it to save the world. No Choice. We'd all be Nazi slaves right now if he hadn't and I personally would have been deep-Hebrew fried!

(Hitler would have perfected the BOMB without America entering the war--figure it out)

[Djinn]

98. Exactly

I can beleive (although I'm nmot sure) that the attack on Pearl Harbour wasn't a surprise - and STILL admire FDR, at the time the rest of the world was begging the US to join the war instead of just making money from it, the people of Europe who suffered under the Nazi's and the people of the Pacific who did so under the Imperial Japanese forces WANTED US involvement, as opposed to certain other milatry adventures. AND there was more than compelling domestic reasons for Americans to fight the Nazi's and Japanese at the time.

Beleiving Pearl Harbour was LIHOP does NOT cancel out respect for FDR. Unfortunately politics is a dirty thing - if you can point out a "clean" pollie I'll point out one that's never even run a bake sale.

[WoodrowFan]

82. but not in the Pacific War

he wanted to get into the European war, but most certainly did NOT want to get into the Asian war for fear it would distract the US and leave Britain and Russia alone vs Germany.

[Djinn]

100. Given the US financial stake in the Pacific

I can see far more reasons for them to go to war there than in Europe

[bpilgrim]

101. not according to these recommendations...

more...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/images/pearl_harbor/recommendations

peace

[Javamancer]

79. no

There's a good, but short, rebuttal on Straight Dope (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mpearlharbor.html). Check out the links provided in above posts for a thorough analysis.

[oasis]

86. Solution:Let stupid ass Repuke scum believe whatever they want about

FDR, the New Deal and Pearl Harbor.

Bottom line, America got rid of their right wing hero,Adolph Hitler.

[stickdog]

104. What happened to the first "revisionist."

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north26.html

What happened to Beard sent a warning to any aspiring young grad student who might have been tempted to follow in Beard’s revisionist path. Beard was at the end of a long and distinguished career. He was the only scholar ever to be elected as president of both the American Historical Association and the American Political Science Association. But his academic achievements gained him no mercy when he broke ranks on Pearl Harbor. James J. Martin, the premier revisionist historian after Harry Elmer Barnes died in 1968, in 1981 provided an account of what happened.

Beard not only infuriated the influential supporters of Roosevelt by his insistence that the continuous deception by the President in making his steady moves toward war while endlessly talking about his peacefulness (few were allowed to forget his pre-election promise in 1940 never to send Americans off to a war outside U.S. borders) was in essentials, as Leighton described it, "completely to undermine constitutional government and set the stage for a Caesar" (Beard’s famed peroration on pp. 582-584 of his Epilogue to President Roosevelt is required reading in this context.) He had opened up another sore while writing his book with a famed article in the Saturday Evening Post for October 4, 1947, "Who’s to Write the History of the War?," in which he revealed that the Rockefeller Foundation, working with its alter ego, the Council on Foreign Relations, had provided $139,000 for the latter to spend in underwriting an official-line history of how the war had come about, in an effort to defeat at the start the same kind of "debunking" historical campaign which had immediately followed the end of World War I. Beard complained of inaccessibility of various documents, which he was sure would be fully available to anyone doing an Establishment version of the wartime past, convinced that these would be sat on as ‘classified’ for a generation or more. . . .

So it was understandable that the following February, two months before the publication of President Roosevelt, when the National Institute of Arts and Letters awarded Beard their gold medal for the best historical work published in the preceding decade, that his erstwhile liberal admirers would reach the end of their tolerance. The highlight of their protest was the resignation in rage from the Institute by one of its most influential members, Lewis Mumford, accompanied by abuse of Beard so extreme that it led to a memorable chiding to Mumford from Harry Elmer Barnes in a 11/2 column letter to the editors of the Chicago Tribune, published 11 February 1948. But the attack on Beard had barely begun.

With the publication of President Roosevelt two months later, in April, the denunciation of Beard became a veritable industry, and the most eminent of the Roosevelt academic defenders were recruited to contribute to the character assassination. Probably the most outrageous was that of Harvard’s Samuel Eliot Morison, Roosevelt’s handpicked choice to write a history of American naval operations in World War II, and even elevated to the rank of Admiral in recognition of his labors. But the outline of the total campaign aimed at Beard is substantial, extensively documented in the later editions of Barnes’s booklet The Struggle Against the Historical Blackout (especially 6th thru. 9th).

Beard died in 1949. His book on Roosevelt was allowed – a mild word, given the circumstances – to go out of print almost immediately, and it was never reprinted. Maybe the Web will resurrect it. I hope so.

[Fight_n_back]

112. Excuse me for asking

but what the Cheney is that man doing on this site?

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Lew_Rockwell

Llewellyn Rockwell, more commonly known as Lew Rockwell, is a paleolibertarian political commentator and economist in the United States. Rockwell is the founder and President of the Ludwig von Mises Institute in Auburn, Alabama and Vice President of the Center for Libertarian Studies in Burlingame, California. Rockwell was closely associated with his teacher and colleague Murray Rothbard, and like Rothbard in his later years his political ideology combines an anarcho-capitalist form of libertarianism with cultural conservativism and Austrian School economics

Gosh, do you think he has an axe to grind against Roosevelt?

Revisionist historians are called that for a reason.

[stickdog]

116. And Moore has an axe to grind against Bush. Does that mean that everything

Moore says about Bush is a lie?

[stickdog]

106. The Case for Pearl Harbor Revisionism

Sorry, but the truth is what matters most. Then and now:

http://www.charlesmartelsociety.org/toq/vol1no2/ss-pearlharbor.html

[LoFlyer]

115. Who needs truth when you can have revisionism?

Japan had taken China, Korea, Viet Nam and others in the 1930's and were unbelievably brutal. The US was trying to stem this brutal imperialistic expansion by Japan through embargoes. This is what led to Pearl Harbor. PS ask a Korean about what they think of your revision of history, be forewarned, you will not like the answer!

[stickdog]

121. What the hell does Korea have to do with this?

Did we enter WWII for Korea's benefit?

[PROGRESSIVE1]

107. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stickdog]

124. The original investigations are here.

Read them in chronological order to get the full effect:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/file_map.html

[stickdog]

125. From the very first secret report -- December, 1941

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/knox/knox_sec.html

...

Neither Short nor Kimmel, at the time of the attack, had any knowledge of the plain intimations of some surprise move, made clear in Washington, through the interception of Japanese instructions to Nomura, in which a surprise move of some kind was clearly indicated by the insistence upon the precise time of Nomura's reply to Hull, at one
o'clock on Sunday.

A general war warning had been sent out from the Navy Department on November 27th, to Admiral Kimmel. General Short told me that a message of warning sent from the War Department on Saturday night at midnight, before the attack, failed to reach him until four or five hours after the attack had been made.

Both the Army and the Navy command at Oahu had prepared careful estimates covering their idea of the most likely and most imminent danger. General Short repeated to me several times that he felt the most imminent danger to the Army was the danger of sabotage, because of the known presence of large numbers of alien Japanese in Honolulu. Acting on this assumption, he took every possible measure to protect against this danger. This included, unfortunately, bunching the planes on the various fields on the Island, close together, so that they might be carefully guarded against possible subversive Action by Japanese agents. This condition, known as "Sabotage Alert" had been assumed because sabotage was considered as the most imminent danger to be guarded against. This bunching of planes, of course, made the Japanese air attack more effective.

...

The Navy regarded the principal danger from a Japanese stroke without warning was a submarine attack, and consequently made all necessary provisions to cope with such an attack. As a matter of fact, a submarine attack did accompany the air attack and at least two Japanese submarines were sunk and a third one ran ashore and was captured.

...

The Navy took no specific measures of protection against an air attack, save only that the ships in the harbor were so dispersed as to provide a field of fire covering every approach from the air. The Navy morning patrol was sent out at dawn to the southward, where the Commander-in-Chief had reason to suspect an attack might come. This patrol consisted of ten patrol bombers who made no contacts with enemy craft. At least 90% of Officers and enlisted personnel were aboard ship when the attack came. The condition of readiness aboard ship was described as "Condition Three", which meant that about one-half of the broadside and anti-aircraft guns were manned, and all of the anti-aircraft guns were supplied with ammunition and were in readiness.

The first intimation of enemy action came to the Navy shortly after seven a. m., when a Destroyer in the harbor entrance radioed that she had contacted a submarine and had (they believed) successfully depth charged it. Thus an attempted attack by submarine preceded the air attack by approximately a half hour. Quite a number of similar incidents, involving reports of submarine contact, had occurred in the recent past and too great credit was not given the Destroyer Commander's report. Subsequent investigation proved the report to be correct. Admiral Bloch received the report and weighed in his mind the possibility that it might be the start of action, but in view of submarine contacts in the past dismissed the thought.

The Army carried out no dawn patrol on Sunday, December 7th, the only air patrol being that sent to the southward by the Navy.

The Radar equipment installed on shipboard, is practically useless when the ships are in Pearl Harbor because of the surrounding mountains. Reliance therefore of both branches of the services is chiefly upon three Army detector stations on the Island of Oahu. Until 7 December, it had been customary to operate three Radars for a large portion of the day. However, on 6 December, permission was requested and obtained from the Control Officer to, on 7 December, operate only from 4:00 a. m. to 7:00 a. m. Accordingly, on 7 December, the stations were manned from before dawn until seven a. m., when they were closed officially.

However, by pure chance one Army non-com officer remained at his post to practice on such planes as might take the air, and probably with no thought of enemy approach. At least a half hour before the attack was made this officer's Radar indicator showed a concentration of planes to the northward, out 130 miles distant. He reported this to the Air Craft Warning Information Center, which was the place from which it should have been reported to Headquarters. The Officer there, a Second Lieutenant, took it upon his shoulders to pass it up, explaining that he had been told the Enterprise was at sea, and that the planes he had located were probably from that carrier. No report of this discovery of an enemy air force approaching from the north reached either the Army or the Navy Commander. If this information had been properly handled, it would have given both Army and Navy sufficient warning to have been in a state of readiness, which at least would have prevented the major part of the damage done, and might easily have converted this successful air attack into a Japanese disaster.

The Officer at the Radar station, I was advised, showed this air force on his instrument as they came in and plotted their approach. <5> I have seen the radar plot, which also included a plot of the enemy air forces returning to the carriers from which they had come to make the attack. This latter information did not reach the Navy until Tuesday, two days after the attack occurred, although many and varied reports as to various locations of radio bearings on the Japanese carriers did come to the Navy Commander-in-Chief.

...

GENERAL OBSERVATIONS

There was no attempt by either Admiral Kimmel or General Short to alibi the lack of a state of readiness for the air attack. Both admitted <11> they did not expect it and had taken no adequate measures to meet one if it came. Both Kimmel and Short evidently regarded an air attack as extremely unlikely because of the great distance which the Japs would have to travel to make the attack and the consequent exposure of such a task force to the superior gun power of the American fleet. Neither the Army nor the Navy Commander expected that an attack would be made by the Japanese while negotiations were still proceeding in Washington. Both felt that if any surprise attack was attempted it would be made in the Far East.

Of course the best means of defense against air attack consists of fighter planes. Lack of an adequate number of this type of aircraft available to the Army for the defense of the Island is due to the diversion of this type before the outbreak of the war, to the British, the Chinese, the Dutch and the Russians.

The next best weapon against air attack is adequate and well disposed antiaircraft artillery. There is a dangerous shortage of guns of this type on the Island. This is through no fault of the Army Commander who has pressed consistently for these guns.

There was evident in both Army and Navy only a very slight feeling of apprehension of any attack at all and neither Army nor Navy were in a position of readiness because of this feeling.

....

In conclusion may I invite particular attention to the following points in my report and draw certain conclusions therefrom:

(1) Neither the Army or the Navy Commandant in Oahu regarded an air attack on the Army air fields or the Navy Stations as at all likely.

(2) The Army and Naval Commands had received a general war warning on November 27th, but a special war warning sent out by the War Department at midnight December 7th to the Army was not received until some hours after the attack on that date.

(3) Army preparations were primarily based on fear of sabotage while the Navy's were based on fear of submarine attack. Therefore, no adequate measures were taken by either service to guard against a surprise air attack.

(4) Radar equipment manned by the Army and usually operated for a longer period, was only operated from 4:00 a. m. to 7:00 a. m., on December 7th. This change was authorized by the Control Officer. Accurate information of the approach of a concentration of planes 130 miles to the northward relayed to the Aircraft Warning information Center by an unofficial observer was not relayed beyond that office. Nor was other information from Army Radar showing the retirement of enemy aircraft to their bases received as such by the Navy until two days after the attack.

(5) The first surprise attack, simultaneously on five principal objectives, caught them all completely unprepared. It was about four minutes before the first anti-aircraft fire by the Navy began, and as the Army aircraft batteries were not manned nor their mobile units in position it was some time before their anti-aircraft fire became effective.

(6) Most of the damage to Army fields and Navy stations occurred during the first attack, which concentrated on planes, airfields and capital ships.

(7) As anti-aircraft fire increased the second and third attacks resulted in successively less damage.

[stickdog]

126. The top secret Army Pearl Harbor Board Report.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/army/tsreport.html

<1> 1. General. Information from informers and other means as to the
activities of our potential enemy and their intentions in the
negotiations between the United States and Japan was in possession of
the State, War and Navy Departments in November and December of 1941.
Such agencies had a reasonably complete disclosure of the Japanese plans
and intentions, and were in a position to know what were the Japanese
potential moves that were scheduled by them against the United States.
Therefore, Washington was in possession of essential facts as to the
enemy's intentions.

This information showed clearly that war was inevitable and late in
November absolutely imminent. It clearly demonstrated the necessity for
resorting to every trading act possible to defer the ultimate day of
breach of relations to give the Army and Navy time to prepare for the
eventualities of war.

The messages actually sent to Hawaii by either the Army or Navy gave
only a small fraction on this information. No direction was given the
Hawaiian Department based upon this information except the "Do-Don't"
message of November 27, 1941. It would have been possible to have sent
safely information, ample for the purpose of orienting the commanders in
Hawaii, or positive directives could have been formulated to put the
Department on Alert Number 3.

This was not done.

Under the circumstances, where information has a vital bearing upon
actions to be taken by field commanders and this information cannot be
disclosed by the War Department to its field commanders, it is incumbent
upon the War Department the <2> to assume the responsibility for
specific directions to the theater commanders. This is an exception to
the admirable policy of the War Department of decentralized and complete
responsibility upon the competent field commanders.

Short got neither form of assistance from the War Department. The
disaster of Pearl Harbor would have been eliminated to the extent that
its defenses were available on December 7 if alerted in time. The
difference between alerting those defenses in time by a directive from
the War Department based upon this information and the failure to alert
them is a difference for which the War Department is responsible, wholly
aside from Short's responsibility in not himself having selected the
right alert.

The War Department had the information. All they had to do was either to
give it to Short or give him directions based upon it.

[stickdog]

127. The Navy Court of Inquiry - Top Secret Sections

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/navy/navy_0.html

Admiral Kimmel's principal contention is that he was kept in
the dark as to certain information which the Navy Department had
obtained from various sources, including the breaking of Japanese codes.
This is a matter which cannot be made public without irreparable damage
to the conduct of the war. It is not unlikely that if there is a public
release of some of the Facts and Opinions, but no release concerning
matters in which Admiral Kimmel is particularly concerned, he may take
further action to protect his own reputation. The potentialities are
particularly dangerous, because Admiral Kimmel's civilian lawyers have
now been informed, so I understand, of the existence and content of the
many Japanese messages in question. I know of no means of keeping these
lawyers from talking in public, except such ethical views as they may
have concerning their responsibility for not doing anything that would
jeopardize war operations. It is a question just how far they could be
restrained by ethical considerations, if the Navy Department were to
make public the part of the record which is unfavorable to Admiral
Kimmel, while suppressing that part which he regards as a main element
of his defense.

...

On 28 November, CNO advised Admiral Kimmel that it had been decided
to relieve Marine garrisons at Midway and Wake with Army troops.

(5) Admiral Kimmel interpreted the foregoing as indicating that the
Department was not particularly concerned as to the possibility of a
Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor at the time.

(p) Fact XVIII (1196). This section of the Findings deals with
information that became available in Washington during the period
beginning 26 November. It is set forth that from 26 November to 7
December, conversations, which had been in progress between our
Government and Japan, were continued, coming to all end on 7 December.
The circumstances under which information as to Japanese intentions
during this period came to the attention of the Navy Department are set
forth as follows:

<11> (1) A number of messages were received from informers during and
prior to this period in the Navy Department but were not sent to Admiral
Kimmel. These messages are summarized in the Addendum to the Court's
Finding of Facts at the back of Volume 5 of the record. The test of the
messages is set forth at length in Volume 5, beginning at page 692.
These messages indicate definite Japanese interest in dispositions at
Pearl Harbor, and mention, in some cases, a desire to know where United
States ships were berthed. Admiral Stark testified that he considered it
undesirable to send Admiral Kimmel these despatehes, because to do so
might jeopardize the secrecy which it was necessary to main as to the
ability of the Navy Department to obtain them. This contention as some
merit, in my opinion. It was Admiral Stark's responsibility to protect
the sources of this information. However, it was equally his
responsibility to give
Admiral Kimmel a general picture of the information contained in these
messages. Admiral Stark says that he considered that the despatehes he
did send to Admiral Kimmel gave an adequate picture of what was known
and inferred as to Japanese intentions. As set forth under "Opinions,"
the Court holds that the information given to Admiral Kimmel was not an
adequate summary of the information at his disposal. I have to concur in
this view.

(2) In addition to the foregoing the Court goes at length into the
handling of the "14 part message", originated in Tokyo and addressed to
the Japanese Ambassador in Washington. The first 13 parts were received
in the Navy Department on 6 December at 2100, on that date. They set
forth the Japanese views as to certain United States proposals for
resolving matters under dispute between the <12> countries, and leave no
doubt that the United States proposals were unacceptable to Japan, but
do not come to the point of indicating a break in relations. At or about
0700, 7 December, the 14th part of the message was received. This part
of the message said that the Japanese Government had finally lost hope
of being able to adjust relations with the United States and that it was
impossible to reach an agreement through further negotiation. This part
of the message was delivered at about 0900, 7 December, to the Office of
the Chief of Naval Operations, at about 0930 to the White House, and
0950 to the State Department for Secretary Hull and Secretary Knox.
Secretary Knox was conferring with Mr. Hull at the State Department.

(3) At about 1030 on 7 December, the so-called "1:00 p. m. message" was
received in the Navy Department. It directed the Japanese Ambassador
deliver the 14 part message to the Secretary of State at 1:00 p. m. on
that day. This message was of significance because 1:00 p. m. in
Washington was dawn at Honolulu. This message was delivered at once to
the Office of the Chief Naval Operations, and immediately thereafter to
the State Department, where the official who received it was asked to
point out to Mr. Knox and Mr. 13 the significance of the "1:00 p. m.
time of delivery". In my opinion, the foregoing indicates that at about
10:30 on 7 December (0500 Honolulu time) Navy Department, or at least,
some officers therein, appreciated that the formation just received
pointed to the possibility_even to the probability-of a dawn attack on
Pearl Harbor. General Marshall states that this mess came to his
attention about 11:00 a. m., and that he immediately telephoned to
Admiral Stark that he proposed to warn General Short that a break with
Japan was imminent, and that an attack against Hawaii would be expected
soon. Admiral Stark demurred at first, as to the <13> need for sending
this message, but after brief consideration asked General Marshall to
include in his proposed despatch directions to pass the contents to
naval commanders. General Marshall sent a despatch to the effect that
the Japanese were presenting "what amounts to an ultimatum at 1:00 p.
m., Washington time, on 7 December; that Japanese are under orders to
destroy their codes immediately and that while the War Department does
not know the significance of the hour set for delivering the note, you
are to be on the alert accordingly and to inform naval authorities of
this communication." He sent this via commercial radio, which was then
the usual means of communicating with the Hawaiian Department. The
despatch left Washington at 12:17 on 7 December (6:47 a. m. Honolulu
time) and arrived in the RCA office in Honolulu at 7:33 a. m. Honolulu
time. This was 22 minutes before the attack began. By the time the
message had been decoded and delivered to General Short, the attack was
already underway. The Court states that if the most expeditious means of
delivery had been used (plain language telephone) this information could
have been received in Hawaii about two hours before the attack began.

The Court remarks that even in this event there was no action open, nor
means available, to Admiral Kimmel which could have stopped the attack,
or which could have had other than negligible bearing upon its outcome,
since there was already in effect a condition of readiness best suited
to the circumstances attending vessels within the limits of Pearl Harbor
naval base, and the Fleet planes at their air bases on Oahu. I cannot go
along with this reasoning of the Court. Even two hours advance warning
would have been of great value in a planes and in augmenting the
condition of readiness existing on board ship.

[stickdog]

129. In Admiral Kimmel's own words ...

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n6p35_Weir.html

My belief is that General Short and I were not given the information available in Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared that action in Hawaii might deter the Japanese from making the attack. Our president had repeatedly assured the American people that the United States would not enter the war unless we were attacked. The Japanese attack on the fleet would put the United States in the war with the full support of the American public.

[bpilgrim]

134. thank you stickdog

for posting so much relevant and informative information in the face of personal attacks and name calling by a few 'dead-enders' :toast:

peace

[Fight_n_back]

138. ?

The only personal attacks I saw here were yours.

[Tashi]

130. If Pearl Harbour hadn't happened.

Would America have ever gone to war?

[stickdog]

132. The Stinnett/Budiansky Debate

http://www.freeindiamedia.com/america/9_march_america.htm

[DaveSZ]

133. They had intelligence

that led them to believe the Japanese would attack somewhere in the Pacific.

They did not expect it to be Pearl though at all.


It was a complete surprise attack.

[swag]

135. Gore Vidal has long argued Pearl Harbor MIHOP

[Fight_n_back]

136. Who was it that decoded the Pearl Harbor messages?

Was this guy murdered? Did his family report him missing?

Was he part of the conspiracy?

A code breaking guy leaps from his desk and says "Holy Shit! The Japanese are going to attack Pearl Harbor on Dec 7!" and then what happened? Was he shot? Sent to a Gulag? What about his commanding officer? Was he payed off or was he eliminated?

So far we have two guys that know of the impending attack we assume because of the entire premise of this scenarion that they told the White House but its unlikely they called the switchboard. So it must have gone up through channels. Low level code guy, his boss, that guys boss, that guys boss, then finally to the War Department where it landed on a staffers desk. But he wasn't alarmed enough to EVER TELL ANYONE either.

So, before we even get to the White House we already have a large conspiracy of silence. Lets guess at twenty people just to be conservative. This is before a decision is made to ignore the message.

So maybe these guys just go about their business and assume that the higher ups are doing something about it.

Then Pearl Harbor happens...none of these guys says anything. Why, none of them even called their buddies at Pearl to tell them to call in sick that day.

Those are the evil bastards you want to get. Of course FDR and the Joint Chiefs would conspire to destroy the Pacific fleet in order to fight a naval war against a great navy but why would those other guys remain silent? Why didn't one of the code breaking guys come forward or confess on his deathbed? Not one Richard Clarke or Jack Ruby among them?

Wow...there must be a lot of dead code breaker guys somewhere. At least they had the foresight to make it look like they broke the code in 1944. That way when the information went public it looked like they had these messages they had been working on feverishly but unable to figure out until after the fact. The acting must have been good too. Acting like you are desperatley trying to break a code you broke three years earlier, pretending to grieve over casualties that you must not care about becasue you could have prevented them but didn't.

It is also a marvel that this broken code wasn't used in the war itself....Of course keeping it secret so that most of the Navy could be destroyed, Your largest harbor be blocked with rotting corpses and hulls, that makes sense but even after the whole nation realized we should be in the war, those code guys still never let on that they knew what was in Japanese messages.

Not at Iwo Gima, nor at Midway. Not even a casual, subliminal "Maybe they are really over here" wink, wink. "Maybe there are more troops there than we think." nudge, nudge

Not once did all ahose people let on.

Man thats committment.

You guys have your work cut out for you. With the JFK assasinatin there is physical evidence that was ignored, confessions ignored, witnesse that came up missing.

But with this conspiracy there is only evidence that is easliy refuted, logic that pulls apart like a moth eaten sweater and a complete lack of anyone ever being linked to actually doing the things that were claimed to have been done.

You guys have your work cut out for you...almoat as much work as it was for all the sailors, juinor officers, officers, admirals, white house staffers, war department staffers and random hookers to keep their mouths shut for all eternity for no other reason than loyalty to a President.

[stickdog]

140. Yes. You are right. No information has ever been kept

from the American public in all of history. Nobody has ever kept a secret to advance his own cause or a cause he believed in. That would just be simply outrageous.

[soundfury]

137. Thanks to all for the education, IÕm a believer now.NT

[bushwakker]

139. Read Gore Vidal "Dreaming War"

this book opened my eyes. we are ALWAYS at war.