Should we respond to appeals to our better nature OR

[prolesunited]

do we get down in the gutter and fight them?

Lately, there's been a number of posters urging us to be more well-behaved and respectful, to play fair, to be nice, to be *good* liberals. They say that we shouldn't stoop to the tactics of the other side, that we should rise above.

Honestly, I used to fall for that. I'm a nice person. I want to be perceived as a nice person. Liberals by their nature accepting and tolerant, not hateful, knee-jerk reactionaries.

But, every time we are nice or play fair, they use it against us. In fact, I imagine them snickering behind our backs, saying, "Suckers. They fall for it every time."

So, DUers what say you? Are the days of the weak-kneed, mealy-mouthed liberal over? Are you ready to fight?

Or, do you wanna play nice?

[MikeG]

1. We can be nice after they lay bloody and beaten.

[greatauntoftriplets]

2. Karl Rove won't play nicely....

The days of "weak-kneed, mealy-mouthed liberals" should be over. The sooner the better.

And you ARE a nice person....

:hi:

[prolesunited]

22. Thanks!

:hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. I think one can fight without lowering ourselves to the level of hatred

of our political opponents.

[Qutzupalotl]

14. Agreed.

Just tell them the truth. They'll think it's hell.

And NEVER back down when you know you're right.

[prolesunited]

16. Really, I'm not advocating hatred here

Just hitting hard with the truth and not backing down and not rolling over, being more aggressive with getting the message out.

I don't think you've ever seen me post anything hateful. I know there is an inherent danger in becoming the enemy that you are fighting. We do need to be mindful of that.

And I'm glad you're on our side. You can run circles around anyone in a debate, using logic, not invective. :-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. Yeah I knew where YOU were coming from but I also saw HOW

others would interpret it...look at what they did to Gore and Dean though...one has to be measured...one has to plant their own soundbites...some of them are coming to bear...I posted an article a while back about Professor Lakoff...he is out to reinvent the language of the left in order to get THEM to plant THEIR seeds in the hearts and minds of the public..it takes time...the right didn't do it overnight...we won't either

[lightbulb]

20. indeed

The M.O. of freepers is ruthlessness and intolerance, both borne of insecurity. They typically have a hard time with nuanced thought, and are fearful of new ideas. For them the world is an unbearably scary place, and their guns are drawn at all times.

As progressives, we rely more on intelligence and adaptability as a means to settle conflicts. We accept our fears and insecurities openly, embrace new ideas, and try to understand world views that challenge our own. At least I'd like to think so.

[ibegurpard]

4. I say fight!

Not to the level of calling for terrorists to bomb FOX News (ala the Ann Coulter comments about Timothy McVeigh and the New York Times) but the fact is that we AREN'T stooping to that level and yet there are still people being suckered by the old "we can't be too extreme...what will people think" argument. There's a HUGE amount of cushion space between outspoken, aggressive liberalism and the right-equivalent of Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity et al.
Don't fall for it, folks.
It reminds me of Charlie Brown, Lucy and the football.

[thebigidea]

5. if only we had a hundred guys like Alan Colmes - that would show 'em!

[prolesunited]

11. LOL!

I can always count on you for a snarky comment.

:hi:

[stevedeshazer]

15. Indeed

Okay, three is enough...

[NMDemDist2]

6. for me, it's "No more Mr Nice Guy" i am fed up to my eyeballs

and I'm not laying down anymore. Now I will be polite as I make my points, but I'm not "letting it slide" any more

But, that's just me....

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

7. No,

"I'm as mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore".

I've listened to the Repukes call my beliefs as traitorous and Un-American for too long. They can all go Cheney themselves.

[stevedeshazer]

8. Ain't playin' nice no more.

In a fightin' mood.

I was like you. Got tired of being stepped on.

[Exgeneral]

9. Cheney all those Bushwipes!

:grr:

[Robbien]

10. They want us to play nice it makes it easier for them to screw us

The RWers are having a hard time with us now and so are sending their paid minions over here to get us to back down and become their patsies again.

[Don_G]

12. I'm Not A "Good" Liberal

I've had to pick teeth out of my knuckles more times than I care to.

Working in a construction-related field dosen't help matters much either.

[prolesunited]

18. I think you're missing my point

I really don't think we should be punching people. I'm thinking MLK and Gandhi-style resistance and non-cooperation.

[RetroLounge]

35. MLK and Gandhi?

look how they ended up.

No thanks.

RL

[prolesunited]

40. Yeah, look at them

They started movements that changed the world.

[Nikki Stone 1]

13. It depends on what you are trying to accomplish

If you are talking about just yelling back when the neocons yell at you, that's a waste of your valuable time. Especially if all they are doing is trying to rile you up on a message board. Ignore the threads that are there to trigger your reactions. Let them drop like stones.

If, however, you are talking about someone like Al Franken pointing out the factual error and blantant lies told by the neocons, I am totally for that--in fact we need more of that out there. And since the only way to get people to listen is to be entertaining, a little humor (at the expense of neocon icons) is to be expected.

What I do not support is becoming as blindly believing or as deceptively propagandistic as the neocons. There should NEVER be an exact liberal equivalent to Rush Limbaugh. And to those who would bring up Michael Moore in this context, I will say this: at least Moore got serious help in checking each and every fact in the film. And, of course, it is a film, not a news program.

[mopaul]

17. I feel like a fight

and we ain't gettin' nowhere being like quakers. we need to be nastier but secure in our fairmindedness. we've turned the other cheek for too long now. we need to hit back

[prolesunited]

21. What a surprise!

;-)

[Liberal Veteran]

19. Within reason.

I don't think it's necessary to cross the normal boundaries of civility in certain matters (ie, waiting until a certain ex-president was buried before launching into a tirade after his death), but on the other hand, Leahy should have told Cheney at least he wouldn't have to take 3 Viagra and risk myocardial infarction by fucking himself and maybe he should go fuck Lynn for once this decade to sweeten his disposition.

[vetwife]

32. Welcome Home....

Please read my post on Johnny and I wanted to say, I hope I do not upset any vets. I love all of ya...Just wanted to warn ya !
Peace
Amanda (vetwife)

[Beacho]

23. I view the 'be nice' crowd with suspicion

Having heard this argument coming from the righties in various forms over the years.

The Right loves the Alan colmes School of liberal and gets spooked when liberals get on their hind legs and display a 'no shit taking' stance.

Do what ever is needed, when it's needed. If the situation calls for 'being nice', then so be it.

But when it's time for getting up in these bullies' faces, no rolling over, PERIOD.

[VOX]

24. I've turned the other cheek for so long that I'm dizzy...

And the time for that is over. Our country is in serious danger of morphing into something really obscene, and permanently. It's already headed there.

If we want to change the terrible direction of things, and keep our country on the right track, mend the damage, etc., we will have to fight. And hard.

Even after Kerry wins, the RW isn't going anywhere -- they have everything in place -- Faux News, talk radio, the works. And they will go to war on inauguration day.

I'm getting way ahead of things, but there's a **long** battle ahead, and there's just no more time to be nice.

[Wind Dancer]

28. Well said, rezmutt!

I agree completely. The first step is getting Kerry elected, getting rid of the PNACer's will take years. Fighting the corporate owned media will be a nightmare - there's tons of work ahead of us.

[a kennedy]

26. and I'm so sick of the Big Dog .....

being responsible for all the ails of this country now. I'm sick of it. THEY all say it's his fault....how do you, without choking THEM, say it isn't so. I did not vote for Bill Clinton....he was way to central for me, but I can not stand THEM bringing up his one mistake. I don't know what to say......and to tell you the truth, I'm very nervous about this election. Out of 25 people I work with......at least 15 will vote for * again!!! I am so thankful for DU, you have been my lifeline for the last 2 weeks, wish I would have found you a long time ago. Thank you.

[prolesunited]

37. Glad you found us!

We clearly have a lot of work to do.

You said you didn't vote for Clinton. Do you plan on voting for Kerry?

Why do you co-workers say will they be voting for Bush?

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[a kennedy]

42. prolesunited: No I didn't vote for Clinton....

but I am voting for Kerry, even did the union door to door canvassing last Saturday for Kerry. As far as people at work voting for Bush, they have fallen for the "if you're against the President, you're not patriotic", or some such bologna, they don't think Kerry could do anything different. Some are ditto's and Rush is their savior. None listen to AAR, NPR, or watch C-SPAN. So with all RW indoctrination they're not open to other views. Thanks for the welcome :)

[LWolf]

27. I'll take the 3rd path.

I don't think we have to become that which we despise in order to win. If so, then what have we won, when we become the opponent?

Neither do I think we need to be doormats. We don't need to be passive. We can be active. We can fight with positive, rather than negative, energy and action. And thus get a positive result.

We don't need to keep quiet. We don't need to moderate the message. We need to articulate it intelligently and respectfully, with integrity. That draws a clear line of demarcation between us and "them," doesn't it?

We need to act, not react. Instead of a list of dirty tactics we "won't do," we need a plan that includes a variety of strong, clean, effective tactics.

I think we can be strong, clear, effective, and still be ethical. Still be clean.

That must be why I'm an idealist. ;-)

[wrate]

29. All I can say is you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar :)

The more vicious the attacks the more people in the middle that will be driven away. That is the price of getting violent (word-wise or otherwise).

[newyawker99]

39. Hi wrate!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[americanstranger]

30. I'm nice if they're nice.

Problem is, they're never nice, and they squeal like babies when you push back.

The days of being nice are long, long gone. We are armed with the truth, and that, in the end, is a much bigger club than anything the Right can swing at us.

So I'll swing that club without a thought, every day. And if they don't think it's 'nice,' then they've got some gettin' over it to do.

-as

[Just Me]

31. Time to play brilliantly assertive, with a BIG smile and complete control.

We are beginning to reach a point where we can be assertively active against the rw talking points.

Those assholes always hit below the belt and get personally vindictive by implication.

We are learning their ropes (being the emotional blackmailers that they are) and hitting them with the best ammunition anyone could have: facts, cunningness and taking a stand against their implied personal assaults since they have nothing better to offer.

[sendero]

33. NO....

... we've tried that over and over. I too would prefer things were the way they used to be, the 2 parties did not agree, but they got along.

Those days are past and there is nothing we can do about it.

IMHO a lot of the people calling for us to "rise above" really have ulterior motives. It is time to take off the gloves, particularly when it comes to rhetoric.

The right has managed to make "liberal" a dirty word by telling lies and applying dizzying spin to everything that happens. Two can play that game. MM has shown the way. I'm not going to be satisfied until "conservative" is a term of derision, and that people are ashamed to identify themselves with it. Because, they should be ashamed - it was a wing of their party who created this environment.

[H2O Man]

34. That "good book" says....

that there is "a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace." That's good advice. Now, I'm one of the people who has advised being very careful in what we say, and very selective in the tactics we use. But that is not because I am a "liberal," (though I admire many liberals) or entirely dedicated to non-violence. I am dedicated to winning, and sustaining the least deaths and injuries on our side. There are some things that only a fool will say publicly -- it has nothing to do with being brave, or radical, or a leader.

Malcolm used to say that if a criminal breaks into your home with a gun, looking to harm your family, and you take your gun and stop him, that doesn't make you a criminal. That's good advice. Malcolm knew what the prophet Jesus knew: that the best way to get a message across isn't to run your mouth like a fool. Be wise and use parables as little teaching devices.

This phase of American history -- and it is current, my friends -- it will require a maturity, a dedication, and a discipline that our nation has never mastered. In the past 24 hours, people discussed a left-wing militia on here. Even if I agreed in concept, I would not say it on here. But I will advocate our considering a non-violent militia, based upon the tactics of Gandhi and King. And an important part of that type of militia is moral force. For, in the final analysis, what direction do we want to move this nation in? It's a subject worthy of discussion.

[NYCGirl]

36. We have to fight back...

"We have to fight back. But we can't fight like they do. The Right's entertainment value comes from their willingness to lie and distort. Ours will have to come from being funny and attractive."

Al Franken, Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right"

[Kanary]

38. I would just settle for DUers and other Dems being "respectful"

to each other.

Otherwise, for bushwa's "base"...... have at 'em.....

They've made it clear that "respecting" them will only encourage them to bury us.

I guess that's what makes me the angriest....... being *made* to fight......

Kanary

[PVnRT]

41. Ask yourself this

Who is the media more friendly too? It ain't liberals, that's for damn sure.

Consequently, any street-fighting from liberals will be "dirty" and "unfair" and "uncalled for" and "baseless personal attacks." Until we start regularly kicking Republican ass, that's not going to be changing any time soon.

What we need to do is start refuting the lies propagated regularly by the right-wing intelligently and in such a way that they make good sound bites. Sound bites are what matter in the age of two-minute reports on the evening national news; long, drawn-out, point-by-point responses are not going to get airtime.

[porphyrian]

43. Yes!

We are a diverse group with multiple talents aligned against a common enemy. We needn't all employ the same tactics, we just need to work together rather than against one another.

[JHB]

44. I'd say both need to be done...

[Solly Mack]

45. My better nature IS on display. I follow the golden rule

Do unto others as you would want done unto you...so I assume rightwingers are treating me just like they want to be treated. :)

Fight evil...tooth and nail. There is no other way. It's not just hate and ignorance we are up against...love won't conquer the evil closing in on America.

And to my thinking, playing nice and forgiving to people screwing the country isn't displaying your better nature, it's showing your yellow streak....or your equally corrupt streak.