what my friend wrote me --- go at it

[jay-3d]

Abundant energy is the single most important factor in our quality of life. All through the south energy keeps our air conditioners running; all through north, it keeps our furnaces burning. Our food grows because of ample fertilizer – which requires energy to make – and is harvested with fuel in the combines and tractors. The trucks and trains that get the food to us before it rots all require fuel to run. We get to our jobs, whether by train or by car, because of readily available energy. We can regularly see our families whether they are across town or across the country because of the readily available energy in gasoline and jet fuel. The advanced equipment in our hospitals all require ample energy, and the ability to get to those hospitals quickly requires energy for the ambulances and the helicopters. The computers we use to communicate, the televisions we watch, the radios we listen to, the military that protects us abroad and the police that protect us at home all require energy. Without abundant energy we would not have the lives we have today. Imagine for a moment we didn’t have access to that abundant energy. Our very society would crumble… our lives would be shortened, in many cases ending in famine and disease. This energy comes in many forms: nuclear energy, coal energy, natural gas, and oil. They are all important. Yes, solar, wind, and other “renewable” sources also help, but currently they are but a small amount of our energy. If this were easy to change it would be so. The fact is, for many things, there is no alternative that is as cost effective and abundant. How, for instance, can an airplane jet engine run without fuel? Maybe someday there will be an alternative, but this is many years down the road. It will take many years and trillions of dollars to replace the entire petroleum based transportation infrastructure. When we talk about freedom, we usually think of speech or religion, but on a daily basis, our most essential freedom is the ability to move around – to drive to the store, to see our friends and family, to go to the job of our choosing and still live in a home of our choosing.

Why am writing this? As Americans we have an unbelievably important choice to make this November. For as long as the Democrats even pay lip service to the very groups that would limit our supplies of energy they do not deserve our vote. As long as they listen to the groups that would not justify a foreign war to secure the most important region in the world in terms of oil, they do not deserve our vote. Simply put, it is too dangerous to put our individual lives and the future of our very society in the hands of those who don’t understand the importance of abundant energy. There are many people who will vote for the Democrats for good reasons – many of us can reach opposite opinions on many of the issues debated in America today. All but a very small and dangerous minority, however, should realize that we must overlook these differences until the Democrats can walk away from these dangerous fringe elements. For the sake of our very quality of life we cannot take a chance with John Kerry and his ultra-liberal environmentalist friends.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Why go into a long discussion when a mere...

"Christ Jesus! You are SOOOOO full of shit!" will suffice? :shrug:

[nickinSTL]

2. uh

What?

He talks as if oil is the ONLY source of energy.

Ethanol.

I'm starting to think ethanol could be the best alternative. Our nation could be a MAJOR supplier, and we wouldn't be dependent on the ME for our energy.

[BlueEyedSon]

10. Ethanol comes from agriculture

which is EXTREMELY energy intensive. It takes 1 gallon of gasoline to produce one gallon of ethanol.

[Snoggera]

13. And with global warming taking effect

There is no assurance that the bumper crops of corn will continue indefinitely (or even in the short-term).

[nickinSTL]

26. ah

Explains why it's not gaining ground.

I don't really know a lot about alternative fuels, just understand the need to find something non-polluting which is efficient.

[Snoggera]

3. Where's all the abundant energy available from the war?

I see oil prices skyrocketing. Am I missing something?

[Sparkly]

So your friend thinks that if Kerry's elected

he'll "limit our supplies of energy" (to the point that airplanes won't fly?)? Does your friend have one shred of credible evidence to back that up? (Answer: NO)

[Caution]

4. do the following:

if he thinks that going to war in order to secure the natural resources of another country is a worthwhile endeavour than there isn't much hope for him but give this a try.

Go out and pick up some recruiting material from the local Army recruiter and hand it to him and ask him if he personally is willing to die for oil. Then offer to bring him down to the recruiters office to volunteer for duty in Iraq.

Don't forget to remind him that John Kerry volunteered for duty in Vietnam as well while you are at it.

[wryter2000]

5. Uh...

How much gas have we gotten as a result of the war in Iraq? Last time I heard, they were importing oil into Iraq from other countries.

[iamjoy]

6. It's Not Really Abundant

In fact, our oil supplies are running out.
Think how that will affect our lives.
And if your friend claims our freedom to move about is more precious than free speech and all other civil liberties, I would argue that having clean air to breathe trumps freedom to get on a plane and fly to Hawaii for the hell of it.

[jay-3d]

8. what I wrote

Anybody with 1/2 a brain would agree with you, including John Kerry. Kerry is not that stupid and is not a liberal (even if liberals would hope him to be). Intelligent liberals/conservatives would not debate this argument on your premise. but, there is ground to debate "Maybe someday there will be an alternative, but this is many years down the road.". This is very true, but like most issues, it's not black and white. We all know it's down the road, but we can make a difference on how down the road, down the road is. This is not to say petroleum will ever go away as a major resource. It's all about degree. What worries people (maybe called liberal, I don't know) is the possibility that the oil industry might have a lock on energy it's self. And, therefore try to hinder the ambitions of capitalistic large scale alternative energy markets. I don't know how true this is, but it worries some people. I think it would be a good idea for the government to start now, to make our country more alternative energy friendly, for the free market to have a chance against a virtual energy oil monopoly (if it exists).

Now step back and think about hungry, hungry, China...

[BlueEyedSon]

11. Kerry is a liberal, check his voting record.

[jay-3d]

14. I hope he is

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jay-3d]

19. What?

[BlueEyedSon]

7. Ok, so we acknowlege that the Iraq War was for oil.

That would make the republicans big fat liars. WMD, al Qaeda, etc were all BS.

Wouldn't $200 billion have bought a LOT of oil and/or renewable sources and/or efficiency and/or other energy technology?

Is acquiring cheap energy by killing people better than using free-market commerce?

Will getting hold of some cheap oil now change the fact that fossil fuels are finite?

Do we invade Saudi Arabia next?

:)

on edit: did I mention greehouse gasses and global climate change?

[kwolf68]

9. I would like to respond but I am at work

What your friend is doing is outright lying. He states or implies that Kerry wants to completely eliminate using fossil fuels.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The fuel/oil that propels our jets, cars, and makes our products and heats our homes WILL STILL BE IN SUPPLY.

Kerry's plan is to begin a true exploration of fuels that can rid ourselves of this dependence and in the least create a "competitve market" with dirty oil. Consumers should have choices among products (that is the basic definition of "free markets"), but too often "choice" limits profits and forces creative thinking. I should have a "choice" to heat my home with solar energy that is at least economically comparable to gas heat. But alas, we don't have real choice. If every car suddenly got 90 miles to the gallon now who the hell would that affect? Freaking oil companies. The lower they can push gas prices (while still being profitable) and the worse the gas mileage of our cars the more money they make.

You think for a 2nd they want to invest millions of dollars into R&D for alternative fuels? Or do you think they want to compete with potentially more environmentally friendly resources? Hell no they don't and they OWN the current administration.

Fossil fuels are a finite resource. They will be gone one day. In addition, even if these fuels were infinite, the burning of fossil fuels is arguably leading to the death of our planet.

It isn't the "ultra-Liberal environmentalist" I am worried about as much as the crooked, greedy, corrupt corporate oligarchs who craft energy legislation that the American people don't even have a RIGHT TO SEE. To me, that is radical.

I can easily expand on this in time, but later.

[Joylaughter]

12. Gratitude

I have an attitude of gratitude. NOW I WANT A LEADER WHO DOESN"T MISLEAD. I want a president who is accountable and responsible. I think the people who actively participate in America should be entitled to affordable fuel, affordable healthcare, and a decent wage. Republicans are made up of two kinds of people: RICH GREEDY and STOOOOOPID IDIOTS.

[Lindsey]

15. Your friend is stating what we've known all along about

the republicans - it's okay to invade another country, kill innocent civilians, and destroy their world in order to maintain a standard of living in which we've grown accustomed. I would ask my fried this question because that's exactly what he's saying and it's disgusting.

[jay-3d]

16. and my friend

is one of the RICH GREEDY ones.

[sandnsea]

So it IS about the oil

Glad we finally got that cleared up.

"As long as they listen to the groups that would not justify a foreign war to secure the most important region in the world in terms of oil, they do not deserve our vote."

[lostnfound]

17. So abundant we can throw it away with Hummer tax credits?

Is that how they understand the importance of abundant energy? To encourage wasting it?

Too bizarre.

[rman]

20. your friend ignores the fact that abundand energy is limited,

and that it is immoral to just grab whatever you can get your hands on, since it harms others.

However, your friend does correctly point out the complete dependance of the industrialized civilization on petrochemical products.

www.endofsuburbia.com
www.thecorporation.com

[kwolf68]

21. mpre

Abundant energy is the single most important factor in our quality of life.

A very sad commentary. Our quality of life is based on a practice that is potentially destroying our planet.

All through the south energy keeps our air conditioners running; all through north, it keeps our furnaces burning. Our food grows because of ample fertilizer – which requires energy to make – and is harvested with fuel in the combines and tractors. The trucks and trains that get the food to us before it rots all require fuel to run. We get to our jobs, whether by train or by car, because of readily available energy. We can regularly see our families whether they are across town or across the country because of the readily available energy in gasoline and jet fuel. The advanced equipment in our hospitals all require ample energy, and the ability to get to those hospitals quickly requires energy for the ambulances and the helicopters. The computers we use to communicate, the televisions we watch, the radios we listen to, the military that protects us abroad and the police that protect us at home all require energy.

Yea. We know this. No point exists in any of this.



Without abundant energy we would not have the lives we have today.

Let me ask your friend this. If oil = Abundant energy, they can we suspect that OIL + Alternative Fuels = More abundant energy. This isn’t a debate about completely eliminating the usage of fossil fuels. It’s an idea that we must develop the alternatives that protect our planet, limit the need to colonize foreign lands for their oil, and enhance a greater market in consumer choices.



Imagine for a moment we didn’t have access to that abundant energy. Our very society would crumble… our lives would be shortened, in many cases ending in famine and disease. This energy comes in many forms: nuclear energy, coal energy, natural gas, and oil. They are all important.

Again, a red herring. Kerry in no way suggests eliminating “access to abundant energy.”




Yes, solar, wind, and other “renewable” sources also help, but currently they are but a small amount of our energy. If this were easy to change it would be so. The fact is, for many things, there is no alternative that is as cost effective and abundant. How, for instance, can an airplane jet engine run without fuel? Maybe someday there will be an alternative, but this is many years down the road.

It is easy to change in some people’s view. The reason the alternative sources of energy are not as viable as they could be is the profit that it would restrict to the oil companies. It is that simple. The market has to have incentives for a product to work. However, the market isn’t truly a “free flowing” exchange of goods, services like many suggest. A “free market” can be manipulated, especially by ultra-large corporations who stand to reap profits from said manipulation. In short, oil companies will do ANY and EVERYTHING they can to restrict the TRUE entry of viable alternative fuels into the market because it would A) Cost them Money B) Force them to COMPETE, and NO true capitalist likes competition despite their claims.




It will take many years and trillions of dollars to replace the entire petroleum based transportation infrastructure. When we talk about freedom, we usually think of speech or religion, but on a daily basis, our most essential freedom is the ability to move around – to drive to the store, to see our friends and family, to go to the job of our choosing and still live in a home of our choosing.

Again, more ad hoc attacks. We are NOT going to replace the entire petroleum industry right now, but imagine if even 10% of it could be altered to alternative fuels…Hell, even 5%. The rewards reaped by man and the environment would be astronomical. Again, WHY DO YOU READ INTO the Kerry plan that he wants to shut down these “dirty” companies? It does NOT exist. We are talking a competitive force to these companies.



For as long as the Democrats even pay lip service to the very groups that would limit our supplies of energy they do not deserve our vote.

Basically, this statement has been said 3 times now. There would be no LIMITS on the supplies, merely other options. Further, what about the lip service now paid to those companies who created government policy in secret?




As long as they listen to the groups that would not justify a foreign war to secure the most important region in the world in terms of oil, they do not deserve our vote. Simply put, it is too dangerous to put our individual lives and the future of our very society in the hands of those who don’t understand the importance of abundant energy.

Again, the same thing over and over.




All but a very small and dangerous minority, however, should realize that we must overlook these differences until the Democrats can walk away from these dangerous fringe elements.

Dangerous Fringe elements. What is dangerous is continuing the path toward ruin unabated. What is dangerous is allowing companies who made 252 billion dollars in profits carte-blanche to write our nation’s energy policy. What is dangerous is Bush and Cheney NOT ALLOWING the American people see who wrote the Energy Policy and what they wrote. What is dangerous is ozone depletion, global warming, oil spills, raped environment, asthma, and overall diminishing health of our entire natural ecosystem, WHICH INCLUDES US.




For the sake of our very quality of life we cannot take a chance with John Kerry and his ultra-liberal environmentalist friends.

Can we continue to take a chance on Bush and his corrupt cronies?

[many a good man]

22. Justifying war to secure oil regions

This is the main point. I agree that the overwhelming importance of oil to all societies means that everything should be done to secure it supply and distribution. How do we do that?

It comes down to this: Any country that has oil is sure as hell going to sell it. It doesn't matter who owns it, friend or foe, its gonna be sold on the world market. John D. Rockefeller was the first one to understand that its not the supply, its control of the distribution and marketing that gives one power.

Therefore you can't argue that you're "securing oil regions" when in fact your goal is controlling the market for selfish reasons. Does starting unprovoked wars and killing tens of thousands of innocent Muslims really bring security to the region??? The US only gets about 15% of its oil from the MidEast. Control of oil is sought after for reasons other than "abundant energy," e.g., controlling development of 3rd world nations. How fast will the oil last if India or China consumed oil at the same rate as the US?

The #1 reason America has attained its currently high level of prosperity is due to the availability of cheap, abundant energy. US hit peak oil in 1973 and the world will hit peak oil sometime soon. Its vitally important we start developing alternatives. How much research could $200B buy instead of paying for Iraq???

[soupkitchen]

23. Is your friend a speech writer for the Devil himself

His logic is Miltonian. The way to Paradise Lost

[gpandas]

24. ask him how many non-white...

people we must kill to appease our fossil fuel appetite. maybe he can put the answer in a ratio, such as, two dead iraqis per gallon of gas. that would put new meaning into a cross country vacation in the old suv. maybe technology will enable us to just burn the bodies of the people who disagree with "our quality of life" depending on abundant energy, as an immediate alternative energy. just imagine the btu's available in the burning of a billion chinese! just think how many worthless plastic throw-aways we could produce from dead africans! talk about quality of life, we could build motels, gas stations, malls,..etc. until we are "blue in the face" from pollution! by not burning the young "units" until maturity, this energy supply would be self renewing,too! the possibilities are endless, once we agree with repugs that the lives of others are secondary to "our way of life". i'm ranting. i'm sorry.

[jay-3d]

25. on NPR dallas

right now

[Tactical Progressive]

27. Here's a response:

The fact that you have just now come to the beginnings of an understanding of the energy problems we're confronting, after twenty-five years of Democrats since Jimmy Carter have tried to get America to address them seriously, shows nothing more than that you are unfit to cast a vote in this country, let alone advise anyone else on how to do it.

Inasmuch as you are just barely beginning to understand one of the biggest issues we face, I'd suggest you spend the next few years listening to people who do understand the world. Instead of making yourself into the all-too-typical spectacle of a Republican lecturing about things you hardly understand, and of that, badly as well.

I'm glad you're waking up. The rest of us have been awake for years. We don't need to hear much of anything from you, and you embarass yourself if you think anyone does. If you're even slightly concerned about the energy situation in this country you should be voting for anybody but the oil gang currently occupying the White House. There couldn't be a worse move in that respect. If you listen and learn for a few years, you'll understand why that is.

[Native]

28. was it addressed, "Dear Tree-Hugger"?

last discourse I rec'd along these lines was less eloquent - something like..."what would you tree-huggers have us do, can our farts"?

[CaTeacher]

29. Yes we rely on energy--far too much so.

I would like to see a gallon of gas cost about $5--then we would see people ditch the gas hogging SUVs, supporting alternate energy use--changing their habits.

The only way to make this happen is to TAX THE HELL out of them. As long as energy is cheap--there is no incentive to change behavior. And we rightfully should pay the TRUE costs of that gallon of gas--who reimburses the devastation to the ecosystem?

[Native]

30. I agree totally!