Swiftvets.com vs. John Kerry - Someone help me answer this one....

[Pachamama]

I just got an email from a "Repuke" I know who knows how active I am for John Kerry...to quote him:

"So, how do you explain this, since you think John Kerry is such a hero?

http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=SwiftPhoto

There is an obvious explanation for this - that John Kerry is a lowlife scumbag with whom no one would ever dare to choose to share a foxhole or naval command....What do you say to that?"
________________

Any DUers have some good d-bunking and facts on the folks in this photo with Kerry and to the claims this site makes?

[progressivebydesign]

1. None of the "swiftvets" served with Kerry..

.. this is an organization put together by Bush pioneers in Texas. The people in charge of this group are all one degree away from Bush or his lawyers. It's a sham group. The people Kerry served with, with the exception of some loony toon, have come out strongly in his favor. Just because the "swiftvets" served on a similar boat, does NOT mean they have an ounce of information about who Kerry was in Vietnam. My brother served on a fast frigate. If he were to run for office, they could put together a group of republicans that all served on fast frigates (not his), to denounce him.

Do the homework. Do a "whois" on the website. THen google the owners. Do some googling on the people listed on the site. YOu'll see it's a texas-based, piece of shit fake organization put together to attack Kerry. More tentacles from Lee Atwater's grave. Even though Atwater made a death-bed conversion, and felt bad about the lives he destroyed, Rove and Bush continue on in his spirit.

EDIT: Also, realize that these are SWIFT BOAT OFFICERS. THey DID NOT serve ON Kerry's boats!! You only have one officer per boat. The people that MATTER are the guys up on stage with him who LIVED through the swift boat experience WITH Kerry. Just because these guys "attended a meeting" together, and hold the same job title, does NOT mean that they have any input as to Kerry's fitness. It's a sham. That's like asking the manager of grocery store in Denver if he thinks the manager in Colorado Springs is fit to be president. How would he know??

[luaneryder]

13. That's what I was going to say

and you did so much better and faster. I just read their site and the statements they made that snopes.com has up and it sounds like their only real gripe with Kerry is his antiwar activities. They did not serve alongside Kerry, they only served at the same time; huge difference.

[duhneece]

18. Such a great answer

I used most of it on a bi-partisan forum of the El Paso Times. Another poster used quotes from Swiftvets, so I appreciate your response more than you know.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbieinok]

6. alert sent

[jedicord]

8. Thanks bobbieinok

I really had to work at keeping my cool with that one.

[jedicord]

7. Great message

The Godd**mn troops aren't all repugs, especially now. They go into the service with the best intentions, whether it is to get a college loan, make some money, fight for our country, whatever.

The bottom line is that they go in knowing what is at stake. And we should make sure that they don't go into harm's way for no good reason.

[dedhed]

9. The place to post sweeping, unfair, and ignorant generalizations...

... would be freerepublic.com.

:eyes:

:bounce:

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Because the godammed troops do not suport repukes

that is a Repuke political point.

Officers who are high ranking tend to vote Republican,

Troops tend to vote Democrat

One more thing, what you saw on stage was the turning of the senior leadership AGAINST the Repukes

Maybe you do not know this, but I do, I lived at a Navy base for over three years and saw my husband go to war. When they left the boat was split 50\50, when my hubby retired most of the sailors and a good number of officers planned to vote for Kerry... they see Bush and Repukes as a threat to their survival.

By the way this is a goddamed blind point by some in the left.

[SoCalDem]

3. Just bounce it back with a message

STOP SENDING ME THIS TRASH... USE GOOGLE AND FIND OUT THE TRUTH :)

[papau]

4. It's been debunked many times - just use the search function.

There is only one fellow he actually served with that is anti-Kerry

The rest of the GOP gang are Vets that object to his being anti-war - or Commanders who said he was great - and now because of the anti-war - object to him.

[sangh0]

5. Why?

Do you really have any hope of converting him? If not, why bother?

[Pachamama]

25. Conversion? No way...this is an effort to win over the minds of Undecideds

who are part of a group forum of old college classmates...

Trying to convert this angry, insular, bitter, jack-booted, gun-tote'in, bill-of-rights-stompin', jesus-lovin', my-way-or-the-high-way, guy isn't worth it...how he got there and why, (he used to just be a kinda conservative fun-lovin beer-drinkin' party guy" circa 1987 and how he made this transformation is anyone's guess, but I'm more concerned about the handful of undecided classmates who see the rantings of him and another buddy daily. The undecideds are for all intensive purposes "liberal" in their social values and voting records, but they are scared of the terrorism threats and are buying into the Bu$hite dogma...

My strategy has been simple...answer the emails concisely and thoroughly using facts....That is why when this recent ranting with links to swiftvets.com and the whole "Kerry Lied" Vietnam vets opposing Kerry rantings started, some of those Undecideds got all confused. You see, they all were very impressed by the Convention and the speeches and ofcourse Max Cleland and the Band of Brothers...so, when this Fascist amongst our friends starts sending out this stuff, I want to answer with my info and facts ready, locked and loaded.

I knew I could count on my "Band of Bros and sista's from the DU"

Thanks

:grouphug:

[HippieCowgirl]

11. Snopes has this one

That the statements are "opinion" and not fact, and that all but one of the men never served with Kerry.

They also counter with quotes from the men who actually served with him, so that might be a good reply. "Here's what the guys under his command had to say..."

[NightTrain]

15. And I believe this is the URL....

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

If that page doesn't give you enough information, just go to www.snopes.com and type "John Kerry" into the site's search engine.

[ieoeja]

12. 14 of his crewmen appeared with Kerry at the DNC

And have endorsed him for President. The individuals at this site did NOT serve under Kerry. Those at the DNC did. 100% of the men who served under Kerry say he was a good commander while a bunch of guys who didn't are talking out their asses.

Tell your friend to read that carefully and see if any of them ever mention having actually served on a boat under Kerry's campaign. They imply it, but they stop short of actually saying that because they did not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. First point to make to your friend

Swrift boats had one skipper, and all of the men in the photo were skippers of swift boats. So unless tehy can show evidence that these skippers were assigned to the SAME squadron while in country, chances are they did not have day to day contact with Lt. Kerry.

Second free point, swift boaters are a republican group meant to discredit Kerry.

Third point: and ask this from the repuke as forcefully as you can.... "why do you hate the troops? I mean every officer or troop who has done their duty but does not suport Bush is maliciously attacked... and you cannot judge until you walk in their shoes. So are YOU going to volunteer?"

Yep turn it on its face, the reason they hate Kerry is that he has had a career of denouncing their treason from Vietnam to BCCI and Iran Contra... to well today

[et in Arcadia ego...]

16. I was just arguing about this with the freeptards at the Fogerty

forum yesterday. http://bb.dreamworksrecords.com/johnfogerty2/ubbthreads.php?Cat=

Here's some info that might be of help:
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth

As to the Fogerty forum, it seems to be infiltrated with right-wing assholes. In fact, most of the threads/subjects over there end up in political fights. On a side note, John's new song knocking the Iraq war is smoking. It's called Deja Vu (All Over Again), and is just now being released.

[displacedtexan]

17. Their leader is a Nixon crony who never served with JK.

Ask this guy if he's a Nixon lover.

[riverwalker]

19. Group is founded by the same guy

who accused John McCain of being a "Viet Cong collaborator" because he didn't die while a POW.

[sandnsea]

20. Exactly, McCain is a Commie Pinko

These people are just slime.

[Shoeempress]

21. here are three links which should help.

http://www.duckstrap.com/Blog/2004/05/if-you-only-care-about-lies-of-your.php

http://worldonfire.typepad.com/world_on_fire/2004/05/stabbed_in_the_.html

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

[NMDemDist2]

23. i bookmarked them thanks Shoe and welcome to DU

:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

22. Oi Pachamama, looks like you got some good points from DUers, now

go get his ass!!! Hee hee!

One thing you can do is send the repuke to CSPAN and have him WATCH Kerry's shipmates support him. Don't tell him that they are NOT the "swiftvets." Just tell this repuke that you heard "them" speak before Kerry spoke last Thursday and that he MUST see this. Don't try to explain anything or defend if he asks why he should see this, etc. Just keep saying, "you MUST see this because it explains EVERYTHING you are talking about." Too SEE is to believe for these knuckle-draggers.

:hug: abraço

[Pachamama]

27. Go See my Answer Post#25 as to why I was seeking the info - Swamp'R

....you obviously figured out why I was looking for the info and my DUers as always came through for me...

What I'll do is craft a nicely written response to his rantings and direct the other folks in the forum (its about 14 people) to go to CSPAN and see the Kerry Shipmates speak about serving with Kerry, and then I'll answer the other points re. Swiftvets with the facts.

That guy John O'Neill was the lap dog for Nixon and McNamara...O'Neill's credibility is 0 and his 15 seconds of fame were over in the 70's. The other guy Ted Sampley is someone that John McCain has called despicable....who are they going to respect? John McCain or the Sampley guy? :eyes:

Also - Ever notice that John O'Neill actually looks like Asscroft separated at Birth? hmmmm.....his good twin?

[Swamp Rat]

32. I saw the Swiftvet bozos on CSPAN one day, lying their asses off!

I wonder if they are paid somehow? :dunce:

O'neill may look like Asscrack but he MUST be related to O'Reilly. They are both genetically compulsive liars.

[Pachamama]

33. Did you know that O'Neill apparantely also clerked for Rehnquist?

Yep, its true...I continue to do my research into this slimebag and the rest of his ilk that are behind the attempts to distribute misinformation...

Hope your staying cool and that its not too muggy in N'orleans for ya tonite...

:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

35. Hey Pachamama!

This O'Neill is a real SCUMBAG! :mad:

I am FREEZING in my room here! I'm trying to wear out this air conditioner :scared: (they need to make a smily that is SMILING while freezing). It so damn hot and muggy that I take 4 showers every 24 hours.

How goes it over thar?

:hi:

[Pachamama]

38. I'm good...I've been stewing over what I can do to help the Kerry Campaign

and make sure that Bu$h goes back to Crawford...Don't laugh, but one idea that I woke up with this morning was to do a road tour across America and register voters...I'd pack up the Pachababies and my nanny and go to towns/cities across the nation...I was even more motivated when I saw on the news today the media trying to villify Teresa Heinz Kerry and saw Bob Dole state in reference to her that "there isn't a muzzle big enough out there" for her....I was so pissed I called both his office and Libby Dole's office....I asked the aide in Libby Dole's office whether she prefers the doggy muzzle or the ball gag from ole Bob and whether its before or after Viagra. The aide said she would pass on the message - Hah! :spank:

Anyway, I feel like checking with a friend of mine who has one of those "Rock Star buses" and then tour the country in Sept/October-Election Day, getting out the vote....my bumper sticker would be the classic "Well Behaved Women Never made History"....A sign across the side reading "Half of Americans didn't vote in 2000 - Are you one of them?" VOTE - your future and the future of our children depend on it...

My husband thinks I'm crazy, but hey, that's why he married me...I'm about 85% there on doing something like this...its the logistical details that are key to me doing it...Anyway, I'd surely make N'Orleans a stop and attend a Voodoo ceremony for the spirits to go our way - (That's right Lurkers - we are Pagan worshippers! BWAAAAAHHH) Anyway, my mind is cooking up lots of ideas.....in the meantime, lets send a muzzle to Bob Dole....those GOP men have such backward ideas don't they....I guess us women just don't know our place, do we now?

[Tsiyu]

41. You Crack Me Up

The Image of the Pacha-bus rolling across the land cracks me up...Have speakers blaring speeches and a mobile Wide Screen TV to show the crowds all the news they DON'T see. The Pachababies can carry sweet little Anti-Bushista signs....

You go girl.....

[Pachamama]

42. Hee hee - Pacha-bus! Yeah, you have to admit, that with the Pachababies

would make for great news and not look good for the Bu$hies.....

I look like a soccer mom and my lil pachababies look like Gerber baby and an angel....

I'd definitely have to hook up with you in Tennessee.... :toast:
I know you'd be right there with me signing up and registering the voters....with your lil ones....

[Tsiyu]

43. Yeah, except

My "little ones" are all grown or almost grown. But I can still round up a few of them (three should be in college this fall--YEAH!!!!!) and we already have a small stack of reg cards and know where to get plenty more.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

24. More info on "swift boat vets" and front man John O'Neill.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200405050004
http://mediamatters.org/items/200405040004

This topic seems to come up just about every day now.

[Green Lantern]

26. Raises issues of dubious value

but a couple of notes should be put forth.

1) How do they define unfit and how do they apply it to the Presidency?

2) "Nam was a war of draftees who filled out the ranks. They tended to be more liberal than many of their officers. The officers were frequently ROTC grads and tended to be conservative- as ROTC tended to be a select in program (altho many used it to avoid the draft for several years)

3) I was a draftee in an intell unit-most of the officers and senior enlisteds who came in before Nam broke out, were very conservative. My fellow draftees tended to be college educated, many with college degrees and some with advanced Master's or law school, etc. Most were not happy about being there. An officer who looked out for his people was usually greatly appreciated.

4) It don't really make much difference, as many of the old liberal draftee vets are coming out in support of Kerry.

5) Who would you rather be with, a man who served and took care of his people or one who has run (ANG-AWOL--9/11 missing in action and 8/2 sent wife and daughters to a potential (ok-self proclaimed) ground zero instead of being there himself. Hmmmmm!



No more Bushwa

[Walt Starr]

28. The Democrats MUST get out in front off this

Pull out the stops. Show how O'Neil was hired as a smear artist by Nixon!

[Pachamama]

31. Couldn't agree more....Not sure why they aren't, but hopefully they will

soon because clearly their misinformation and lies are getting spread around the internet etc. as if they were true. Some people have the impression that these groups and guys like O'Neill have tons of Vets behind them...its really scary to see how this kind of propaganda can be spread and taken for truth. Sadly, most people don't bother to research where the info came from and the source itself...

I'm getting great info from my buddies here on the DU and its helping me craft an excellent response to this guy's email...as I mentioned in the post #25, my reason for responding is not to "convert" but rather because on the email thread is a group of about 14 people (past college classmates) and atleast 5 undecideds....I don't want them being influenced by this misinformation and lies about John Kerry.

[LTR]

29. I was just arguing on another board earlier about that site

He claimed that the Swift Vets site shows how rotten Kerry really is. I told him that site is a bunch of RW bullshit put out by former Nixon hitmen. And that none of those guys even served with Kerry.

Also told him that Ted Sampley's site is also RW trash, even debunked by John McCain.

He was mad because he felt that Kerry ratted his comrades out in 1971 while testifying before the Senate subcommittee. I told him that he did far from that, and the only names he mentioned were the likes of Richard Nixon and Bob McNamara. Kerry didn't tell the subcommittee anything they already didn't know, basically filling in more anonymous details, and kept it in generalizations. The only thing he mentioned that the Senate didn't already grasp was the seriousness of the drug problem among soldiers in Vietnam, and how it could lead to devastating consequences (i.e. crime) once they return to the US.

Here's a link to the whole testimony. See for yourself, and share it with others. It is one hell of a read!

http://www.c-span.org/vote2004/jkerrytestimony.asp

[Pachamama]

30. I heard on NPR last night Walter Cronkite talking about Mcnamara & Johnson

in their recordings of conversations that were played from the Gulf of Tonkin and beginnings of Vietnam....I also listened to some of the tapes played recently on MSNBC with Nixon and folks talking about "this boy O'Neill to counter this Kerry guy"....I heard similarities in the underhanded sleeze that I am sure is mirrored in conversations and plotting by our current administration.

Thanks for the link.... :hi:

[FDRrocks]

34. It was answered at the DNC

by the members of Kerry's crew and the Green Beret whose life he saved. I ponder the military credentials of these swiftboat commanders.

[fishface]

36. Anytime you have some clown tell you what the 'REAL'

meaning of what your reading is, like these jagoffs do with his fitness reports, you just got to know they're Bushitting you.
All GOP bought and paid for stooges.

[fishface]

37. These are the turds funding this collection of scumbags..

Texan funds anti-Kerry vets
Houston Republican gave $100,000 to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth


07:30 PM CDT on Friday, July 23, 2004

By WAYNE SLATER / The Dallas Morning News


AUSTIN – Houston homebuilder Bob Perry, a major supporter of President Bush and the Republican Party, is the biggest financial backer of a veterans group seeking to discredit Democrat John Kerry's military service, according to federal records.

DNC Online
Round-the clock convention coverage, video, speakers, speeches and schedule. Find it all on DallasNews.com .
Mr. Perry gave $100,000 to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a group that has been critical of Mr. Kerry's anti-war activities after he returned from Vietnam. That accounted for two-thirds of the organization's receipts to date.

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth also has hired a Dallas-area private investigator to gather information about Mr. Kerry's three Purple Hearts. Group members, including some who served with Mr. Kerry, argue he did not deserve the medals and is not fit to be president.

The Kerry campaign has accused Swift Boat Veterans of being a politically motivated group with ties to the Republican Party and the Bush administration. The Bush campaign says it is not associated with the group.

Bill Miller, a spokesman for Mr. Perry, said the Houston businessman is "a self-proclaimed Republican" who has supported many candidates and causes.

"He gives money where he believes it's needed and serves a good interest," Mr. Miller said.

Federal law restricts individual contributions to candidates, but independent groups such as Swift Boat Veterans can accept unrestricted donations. The groups are forbidden from coordinating their activities with candidates.

Mr. Perry is one of the most prolific contributors in Texas. He has donated more than $5 million to state candidates and causes since January 2000 and several hundred thousand dollars to national candidates and the GOP.

According to the organization's filing with the IRS, Swift Boat Veterans raised $158,750 from April through June 30. Other contributions included $25,000 each from Houston lawyer John O'Neill and Dallas developer Harlan Crow.

The report also shows that the group paid $3,179 to Rockwall private investigator Tom Rupprath. Veterans contacted by Mr. Rupprath, who has declined to comment, say he has sought to misrepresent them to damage Mr. Kerry.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/washin...

[Pachamama]

39. Hey Fishface! Thanks for the info on these Repuke Sh*ts....

Thanks to my fellow DUers, I have some good ammo to answer the Email that I posted here and let the fireworks burst...

It's just incredible to me to see how desperate the Republicans are to try to tear Kerry down on his Vietnam record and to what ends they will go....

Ya think they will ever find an Airguard "Buddy" that can recall on stage at the GOP how he and Dubya served together? :eyes:

Thanks again! :hi:

[fishface]

40. Yer welcome..and here's a couple more in case no one else had them.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-kerryviet5jul05,1,453423.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

------

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ve... <http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-vets29jul29.story>

-------

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/kerry/articles/2004/05/05/kerrys_commanders_speak_out_against_him/

-------

http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20040413/6107219s.htm

------

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=352185


--------------

Baptism by Fire
Crew Members Recall Incident That Earned John Kerry a Silver Star
By Jake Tapper
ABCNEWS.com

June 24, 2004— Sen. John Kerry talks about his four months in Vietnam — it's a centerpiece of his presidential campaign — but there's one thing he won't talk about: the day he killed a Vietcong soldier at close range and earned a Silver Star.

"It's a key part of him," said a Kerry friend. "It was a pivotal moment in his life. But he doesn't talk about it."

Added another source close to Kerry, "it's the reason he gets so angry when his patriotism is challenged. It was a traumatic experience that's still with him, and he went through it for his country." It affects the way Kerry lives his life every day, the source said, since "he knows he very well would not be alive today had he not taken the life of another man never ever met."

-snip-

The man was still running down a path when they got to the bank. Kerry, Belodeau and Michael McDarris, in hot pursuit, saw the Vietcong soldier. Short recalled: "The guy was getting ready to stand up with a rocket on his shoulder, coming up. And Mr. Kerry took him out … he would have been about a 30-yard shot. Which, we were dead in the water up on the bank, point blank. If he missed us, he would have to, you know — there's no way he could miss us. He could've thrown a rock and taken me out."

-snip-

More: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Nightline/Politics/kerry...