LIHOP/MIHOPers: Was bush left out of the loop on 9/11?

[milkyway]

Assuming there was government complicity on 9/11, was there any need to include the dim son? I've always doubted the "Bush Knew" meme. He's not the leader of the cabal. bush's deer-in-the-headlights look in the classroom on 9/11 could be him realizing what he had been only vaguely aware of: al Queda was going to attack the U.S. with the assistance of the neocon/military cabal. He realized in the classroom that they actually had done it.

[WillyT]

1. Man... Talk About You Plausible Deniability !!!

I could see that, but who the hell knows??? THAT is what I want to know.

:shrug:

[Solomon]

2. He was told that there would be a "traditional" hijacking.

When the first plane hit the WTC, he didn't know what to think. But when he was in that classroom and he'd been told that a second plane hit the WTC too, he was wondering what the hell was going on.

Remember Condi Rice right after 9-11? She kept saying, we thought there would be a "traditional" hijacking. "No one could have imagined they would use planes as missiles".

[Beam Me Up]

7. This is my take on it, too.

Bush knew 'something' was going to happen. It wasn't necessary, and actually preferable that he not know too much. Just enough to keep him from doing what any normal person would do upon hearing that a second plane had hit the WTC and that "America is under attack" -- that is, get up from your chair, go find the nearest TV / phone (and in his case the emergency team which was traveling with him) and find out what the hell was going on. He had to know just enough to know TO DO NOTHING WHAT SO EVER UNTIL HE WAS TOLD TO. He was supposed to WAIT. There were to be NO PRESIDENTIAL ACTIONS TAKEN that might disrupt what was taking place.

[Old and In the Way]

9. But she could imagine planes hijacked. They all could.

And what a perfect reason to get that war going in Afghanistan; Condi even told us that Presidential executive orders were on his desk awaiting his return to Washington to sign off on. Yeah, 9/11 was an unplanned "coincidence".

I'm sure Bush was in on the plan. He had his role to play, afterall. But he still screwed up his lines. "I remember seeing that 1st plane hit the WTC and thought, that's one bad pilot". Really? You saw that 1st plane hit? Or was he hoping that we'd believe his line that he thought it was simply pilot error. Because we know he knew that there were 2 planes hijacked out of Boston before he went in the classroom.

Impeach the loser for gross incompetence and dereliction of duty.

[shraby]

27. Actually he didn't see any

planes hit anything cause the first one wasn't televised at the time and he was sitting in the classroom for the second one.

[Old and In the Way]

35. Are you sure?

A slip of the tongue? He's a serial liar and truthbender, no question. I'd sure would like to know if that question was asked by the 9/11 commission in their closed door/off the record meeting (chaperoned by Dick). Or maybe he had a CCTV of the event? I'd take him at his word...impeach him.

Point is, how could anyone have had such a defective recollection of what transpired that day? And he made that statement on 2 different occaisions.

But it is the "one terrible pilot" comment that really bothers me....no way; knowing what we know now about the 8/6 PDB and other intel that warned about planes as weapons hitting US targets, he couldn't possibly have thought that. He was seeding the excuse that this was unexpected.....and we know that's a lie now.

[catzies]

44. That contradicts a statement he made going into Booker Elem.

A reporter there asked him about the 1st plane (when he ws stepping out of his limo and going into the school), and he said he'd have a statement about it "later."

[sistersofmercy]

10. Yep, that's what I think as well. n/t

[milkyway]

12. I never thought of this, but it makes some sense. The feeling I have

is that he was stunned by the news. He was in the loop enough to know something was coming, but almost went into shock when he realized the enormity of it. Michael Moore suggests that bush was wondering which one of his friends had done it (Saddam, Osama, Saudis); instead, it was his own people (Cheney, Rumsfeld), and the crime was bigger than he had been led to believe.

A little off topic, but one of the damning pieces of evidence for LIHOP/MIHOP was that he was allowed to stay at a public event in a school while the nation was under attack. It's hard to believe that he was not rushed out of there at least when the second plane hit the WTC. Did the 9/11 Commission's report address this lapse in Secret Service procedure?

[opihimoimoi]

29. "WE THOUGHT there would be TRADITIONAL HIJACKINGS"

"So we did nothing...no warnings, no alerts, no upgrading security".........???? WTF..? Sounds like she thought....

but something else happened.....


In other words, they fumbled the damn ball...

[Warpy]

3. Given his performance at the Booker School, there are only two

choices: first, he's so abysmally stupid he's incapable of doing a single thing someone else doesn't tell him to do; or second, that he knew something like this was set to happen and that it was all supposed to go off as planned, with no interference.

No other explanation can acocunt for his complete passivity, his utter lack of curiosity about what was happening on that day. Given the grounding of all intercept flights until after the Pentagon had been hit, I strongly suspect the second option is the true one.

And I HATE conspiracy theories.

Simply being out of the loop would increase his curiosity, I'd think, that he'd want to go find a TV set and see some pictures. He didn't. He sat there, didn't ask for a phone, didn't excuse himself to confer with his aides, didn't go find a radio or television. He just SAT THERE, passive, incurious. Afterwards, he schmoozed with the kiddies and finished his meaningless photo op.

[leesa]

4. No. He did exactly as he was told. His history tells me he knew exactly

what was going on as well. This guys a known thief and an all-around mean fuck. He was the hatchet man for his Dad. He is in on everything they have done. What confuses us is that he does not care at all, and that is foreign to most of us.

[grasswire]

5. there IS one other possibility

... and I don't know why they don't claim it as the reason for the inaction.

The drill being conducted out of the situation room the morning of 9-11, with the scenario of aircraft flying into public buildings. Civil authorities and military and CIA/NSA were involved in the drill and Cheney is said to have been supervising.

This is the ONLY plausible explanation for the snafus, the stand-downs, and Bush's puzzlement. They thought it was a drill at first.

Yes? No?

[Old and In the Way]

11. I've wondered why they didnt use that reason immediately as well.

Seems tailor made cover for their inaction. And why would Condi volunteer that line, "we'd never considered that they fly planes into buildings when the US military was simulating that very scenario that day?

Another tidbit. Remember Cheney going ballistic about the leaks on the Senate Intlligence committees when word leaked out about the intercepted sigintel that was received on 9/10 that mentioned that the "game was on" for the next day? That referred to the simulation...and the terrorists knew about it. How?

[Beam Me Up]

39. Here is why they didn't use that cover:

That actual attacks would occur ON THE SAME DAY as a simulation is highly unlikely and would suggest that our national security infrastructure has been severely compromised by moles. This could lead to an investigation and unwanted questions.

[JohnyCanuck]

6. Going by Shrubenfuhrer's reaction here:

How to Spot a Liar (A flash presentation by www.takebackthemedia.com)

I think he had to have known something was up that day, but I wouldn't doubt that his Uncle Dick and his Uncle Rumfilled kept him as much in the dark about the details as possible lest he spill the beans before they got their new Pearl Harbor on track as their PNAC buddies were counting on them to do.

Edited to fix link.

[milkyway]

15. I've seen that clip before, and love it! This is the only time I know of

the bush was directly asked about his knowing about 9/11.

[Old and In the Way]

33. Poppy was the original "Out of the Looper"

Like father like son. And let's not forget Poppy. Ex-head of CIA. Since they were busy disregarding/stuffing intel coming through normal channels that summer, I suspect that they had their own back door intel that kept them appraised of the plan....but perhaps they were getting fed bogus info.

and I've always thought it interesting that Poppy spent the night of 9/10 at the WH while Dimson was in Florida. The fact that he was in Washington for a meeting with his bin Laden partners at a Carlyle board meeting was another innocent coincidence,I'm sure; but why did he and Babs head to Milwaukee that day? I'd think he'd have stuck around to lend his son some advice...........

[Laura_B_manslaughter]

8. I've thought that for 3 years

I think our govt was involved but Bush's bizzare and even cowardly behavior on 9-11 makes it look like he didn't know what was going on. Hell - why should cheney and rove tell a drunk about plans for the biggest crime in history?

[Old and In the Way]

13. He had a simple script to follow.

Go to the classroom and talk with the kids until the event was over, have the photo-op, and declare war on the Taliban.


Things obviously when wrong. I think that's why they were incommunicado for most of the day. They had to understand all the details and rewrite their story before they could allow Bush to go on the record again.

[Laura_B_manslaughter]

16. They had to confirm that flight 93 was shot down

and there were no survivors, that is witnesses. I suspect that flight 93 was meant to hit WTC7, the third skyscraper that collapsed that day even though NOTHING hit it.

[Old and In the Way]

34. 93 was 20 minutes late taking off that day.....

all the planes should have hit their targets before 9:30.....9:30 was a planned photo-op on the tinerary...and, by gawd, they still managed to keep on schedule for that.

[WillyT]

17. Never Thought About Using AF-1 Time To Get Their Stories Straight !!!

Oh man...

[Old and In the Way]

31. The "hideout" thing has always bothered me.

This should have been a hi-profile moment for Dimson. Wouldn't this be something that his WH handlers would want to take advantage of? Especially since his polling was trending down from day 1 in office. If it was Clinton, do you think that he'd have hid out in a bunker all day? To be AWOL on the most momentous day of modern American history is just too strange. Where was the press? Odd how there has been absolutely no leaks of Bush's actions that day after he left Sarasota. Seems to me that they risked public derision of Bush for scampering down a hidey hole instead of the obvious "no-brainer" of using this as a "Presidential moment". Pretty big risk for a guy who is a complete media creation.

The only reason I can figure is that they needed to make sure all loose ends were known/understood and rescripted to fit a plausible scenario. That would take a lot of time and they would need to be totally insulated from the publics eye to accomplish it.

[hang a left]

26. I had never thought about that.

You are right. They had to get their stories straight and * had already made a statement to the press.

When I watched F9-11 and after Card whispers in *'s ear, he just looks scared. And he sits there are thumbs through that book, and he looks terror stricken. I think he had foreknowledge, I just am not sure how much he knew. He is pure evil, he could have been in on the whole thing, then again he's not the sharpest tool in the shed, so maybe Cheney didn't let on to the enormity of the attack. We will never know, never. That is what is so horrible about it. We will never know, what really happened, who really was aboard those planes. One thing we do know there were a ton of people in on it. I imagine they will all take it to their graves.

[Doctor_J]

14. plausible

he's such a weak man, if he'd known about it beforehand, he probably would've pissed himself and blown the whole thing by now.

[King_Crimson]

18. Whaddya wanna bet Andy Card...

told him to "just sit still...and don't say a word" instead of the popular "America is under attack."

[milkyway]

20. I've also wondered if Card knew the truth of what was happening.

[hang a left]

28. That is something I have thought about also.

How do we know what Card said to *.

[cthrumatrix]

40. that would be something...you know it wasn't what they claim

[Eloriel]

19. I have always thought something similar

If you go back to those infamous moments when Andy Card whispered in his ear, and observe his body language (facial expression-- pissed! -- as if the player got played. I also think that may explain a little more about his fiddling while New York burned. It may also do more to explain his bumping around the country instead of going back to D.C. AND, the skulking across the White House lawn, looking right and left (as if he's afraid??) when he finally did return.

My personal theory is that he knew a little something (after all, he WAS the one who kept ignoring all the warnings and intel), but that the events were bigger and more dramatic and destructive than he'd expected. Perhaps the enigmatic and highly controversial "message" that Mike Vreeland wrote on the envelope beforehand had some merit after all: "Hit one, stop the others" (or something very similar) and it didn't end up happening that way.

Or perhaps, if others in his administration had escalated the whole thing (or de-escalated any and all possible responses, as by NORAD, etc.) without his knowledge, he may have been genuinely concerned that HE may be on their hit list too.

Others have seen something different in his facial expressions. But this interpretation is the only thing that ties some of his actions and body language through the day together for me.

It seems very clear to me that he WAS somewhat surprised (but also pissed) when Card told him whatever it was he whispered in Bush's ear. What sorts of circumstances could generate both those responses at the same time?

I'd be very interested in others' take on my theories.

[milkyway]

21. I'm unaware of the Vreeland message. What is that?

I never thought that bush could have been afraid he might be whacked by the cabal. That's stretching it farther than even I can believe.

And I'd like to say hi, Eloriel. You've been an eloquent advocate for the good Doctor here at DU.

[Eloriel]

24. Well, perhaps someone else can provide some better info on

Mike Vreeland. I lost a boatload of links some time back when I went through 2 hard drives. :-(

Vreeland is a controversial figure, and I've never fully made up my mind about his credibility (he and his story comprises a bit of info I hold in abeyance until more info comes in, if it ever does). He was jailed in Canada at the time, claimed to be a Navy spy, and had reportedly scribbled something similar to what I posted on a piece of paper and handed it to his jailers a few days before 9-11. "Let one through and sto the rest" may be closer to his language.

And thanks, I LOVE the good doctor, as you know. No, make that adore. ;-) A belated welcome to DU to you!

:hi:

[frylock]

25. let one happen stop the rest!!!

http://www.guerrillanews.com/wildcard/thenotes
http://www.gnn.tv/intelligence/doc749.html

[Gin]

22. whatever the truth is...he WAS NOT in charge....so.. somebody else was...

with all the terror scares about BinLadin they didn't even have a plan in case of emergency. But...to them this was an "opportunity" and not an emergency.

[Bucky]

23. I don't think he knew while he was still in the classroom.

I don't think he catches on that fast. It probably took him a few hours to understand the scope of things. A nice shot of ritelin in the St. Louis bunker will do that for ya.

[opihimoimoi]

32. ""Wha Happened?? Shit, they told me it was going to be a friggen hijacking

not crashing into goddam buildings!!"

"Now what we gonna do/say?" "Shit"

[Lerkfish]

38. whether bush himself knew or not...

clearly the secret service did not behave normally. the first thing that should have happened was to whisk the president to relative are of safety. Their first duty is the protection of POTUS, yet they did nothing for a very long time.
So, the secret service either knew about it, or were being controlled by someone who knew anout it.

[moondust]

30. If you were doing it would you tell him?

Hell no. His awareness of it could only be a liability.

[AntiCoup2K4]

36. It's a fact that Poppy and Cheney spent the evening of 9-10-01

....in the Oval Office. Junior was, of course, in Florida. So why would the VP, and the pResident's dad be meeting in his office? They must have said something urgent to talk about that couldn't wait until after Poppy's meeting with the Carlyle Group the next morning.

Poppy also made sure he left the White House early enough in the morning to not be spotted by the media. Somehow he knew there would be a huge press presence at the White House that day. Go figure.....

[Gregorian]

42. That, is freaky. Thanks for that tidbit.

Maybe I'm just being skeptical of everything, now. But that is way too strange for my innocent mind to dismiss.

[goclark]

49. Wow! Poppy in the Middle AGAIN!

I did not know this, thanks for the tidbit.

There is such a long list of "Poppy In The Middle" I can't keep up.

Poppy getting the daily CIA briefings, the only ex Presidents that requests them!

Poppy in Dallas

Poppy With Saudi's and Carlyle Group ( didn't he meet with them right before 9 11?

Poppy's Dad and his Neo Con leanings

Nancy Reagan didn't trust him

Poppy and Reagan's Shooting, friends with the Hinkley family
etc. etc

Poppy "appointing" Clarence Thomas

I truly believe that Poppy, not Cheney, is running this government and this is yet another telling indicator.

POPPY ran the entire show.

Prove me wrong.:think:

[nomatrix]

37. Thank you for the question here in GD

Something that has always bothered me.

Why would Condi tell Bush it was a twin engine plane? From what I have read, CNN thought it was a commercial jet, it crossed into an area where no plane should be, and was picked up on radar, people saw it and heard it, plenty of government offices there to contact to verify, so why would the national security adviser, be speculating maybe from watching TV?

Another question, in Richard Clarke's "Against All Enemies" he asks Dick Myers about NORAD, and is told they are in the middle of Vigilant Warrior, a NORAD exercise......
I had heard Vigilant Guardian, but not Vigilant Warrior. Anyone else find that weird?

I have never ever heard one person say (if they weren't watching on TV) they could have waited to find out about the planes crashing into the towers. The people who went back to their desks at the WTC, after the 1st plane hit , might have been in the category. I am not. Have you ever met anyone that could tune this out?

One more thing weird, watching Ari Fleisher and Card, watching Bush.
Everyone seemed so surreal.

[JohnyCanuck]

41. Apparently there were more war games taking place

on 9/11 than you could shake a stick at. Such a coincidence too that these war games were simulating things like errant air craft slaming into government buildings and hijackings.

There's a suggestion that Vigilant Guardian and Vigilant Warrior were the same exercise, one simulating the role of defender and the other simulating an attacker.

See: http://www.oilempire.us/wargames.html

Snip:
Four decades ago, the novel (and movie) "Seven Days in May" was a popular political thriller about a military coup d'etat in the United States against a President who sought to scale back the Cold War. In this story, a military cabal schemed to topple the government under the guise of a military communications exercise. This "war game" was to have been used as the cover for toppling the government and installing a General as President who would stop arms control treaties with the Soviet Union.

On September 11, at least five different "war games" were being conducted by the military and intelligence agencies that simulated 9/11 type events which paralyzed the air defenses, apparently ensuring the success of the "attacks." The British Navy was conducting exercises in the Indian ocean. A biowar exercise was also about to start in New York City. Who has the power to coordinate all of these exercises? Dick Cheney and the White House?

It is difficult to believe that it is a bizarre "coincidence" that the military and CIA were conducting wargames similar to 9/11 on September 11, 2001. While it seems likely, if not blatantly obvious, that these war games were one of the means used to confuse the air defense system for sufficient time to allow the World Trade Center to be attacked, the war games do not answer the question of how the air defenses were suppressed for another half hour after the second tower was hit (at which time everyone knew that an attack was in progress). The Air Force had another half hour after the second tower to scramble interceptors to defend the Capitol (the plane that is alleged to have hit the Pentagon made its 180 degree turn over Ohio to head back toward D.C. about the time that the second tower was struck).

[Minstrel Boy]

43. Vigilent Warrior: live-fly simulation of hijackings on 9/11

Vigilant Guardian, Northern Vigilence, Vigilent Warrior....

There were FIVE wargames on the day of September 11, many with confusingly similar names.

One of them, Vigilent Warror, was a live-fly exercise of a response to simulated hijackings.

Remember reading remarks of officials who wondered at first whether the hijackings were part of a wargame? This is the game.

And with many fighters already committed to other wargames, the number remaining to respond to a genuine threat were outnumbered by the number of apparently hijacked planes. With the transponders switched off, identities of the genuine threat from the simulated became confused.

What a frickin' coincky-dink.

More about it here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1694495

[Old and In the Way]

47. Odd, too, because the official excuse was we only had 14

planes covering the entire US on 9/11. If this huge wargame simulation was underway, where the hell were all the planes?

[Old and In the Way]

46. I guess that explains FEMA's presence in NYC on 9/10.

"A biowar exercise was also about to start in New York City."

[Minstrel Boy]

48. Right. FEMA really did arrive on the 10th.

From xymphora:

Much was made about an interview by Dan Rather of a man named Tom Kennedy (actually Tom Kenney). He worked on the 9-11 rescue operation, and said FEMA had arrived in New York City late Monday night, the eve of the 9-11 attacks. If FEMA was on the scene the day before the disaster, we have the makings of a conspiracy theory. Of course, the matter was quickly explained as a mistake of dates, and almost everyone went back to sleep.

Ethel the Blog, based on the stellar work of Gregor Holland, summarizes the current state of our understanding, including the testimony of Rudy Giuliani to the 9-11 commission (isn't it odd that the only untranscribed testimony is from the man widely regarded as the hero of 9-11?), and shows that FEMA definitely did have an exercise planned for New York City on the morning of September 11. The fact that FEMA explained away Kenney's error without even bothering to mention the fact that they had an exercise planned for that morning, and therefore Kenney may very well have been on the scene getting ready for the exercise and wasn't mistaken, is deeply troubling, as it evidences knowledge of guilt. In fact, it is even possible that Kenney was mistaken (although we've seen absolutely no evidence that he was, and his story is consistent with Giuliani's testimony), but Giuliani's testimony combined with FEMA's failing to explain what was really going on is proof that FEMA felt that the truth would be damning.

It is even more damning when we consider that the exercise, named TRIPOD, was supported by the Office of Justice Programs, through the Office for Domestic Preparedness, with the Office for Domestic Preparedness personally headed by Dick Fuck Yourself Cheney. The number of unexplained and officially unacknowledged 'training exercises' in and around all aspects of 9-11 are starting to pile up. If you anticipated that two huge buildings in New York City were to be knocked down on September 11, it would be prudent to have a presence in New York City on September 10. The best way to cover up such an unexplained presence is by calling it a training exercise. It is quite likely that the NORAD standdown was accomplished in the same way, with both the air traffic controllers and the local NORAD commanders under the assumption that anomalies in flight routes and behavior of the 9-11 attack planes were part of a training exercise, and thus were ignored until it was too late.

more:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1908033

[EndElectoral]

45. Irrelevant - The buck stops with him!

[donkeyotay]

50. Mostly just plausible deniability

While bush might not have had the details, he was down with the plan. Think back to the 2000 coup. While he campaigned as the "education president," etc., he installed an administration that had only one logical purpose: war. Bush, the evangelical, was down with that.

And remember him mocking that woman who was executed, the "what are you going to do, kill me" sneer? That alone should put to rest any illusions about whether he was capable of being such a ruthless bastard.