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tnhatesbush Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:11 PM
Original message
There will be a draft
I am sorry to say, but I do think there will be a draft. No matter who is elected due to the fact of the future of the OIL production PEAK LEVELS... what does anyone else think???
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Commendatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. If Bush wins, there will be. None if Kerry wins. (n/t)
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. So far only Democrats have proposed reinstating the draft
Edited on Wed Aug-04-04 12:17 PM by bowens43
The Republicans seem to be adamantly against it while a bunch of Democratic bozos in the house keep bringing it up. Kerry proposes INCREASING the size of the military by 40,000.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. The Dems (Rangel) keeps bringing it up to point out the BS of the war.
The pugs are more likely to do bring back the draft if elected. But, I'm with you on Kerry's idiotic call to bolster the bloated military.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Well it is IMO, a dumb-ass thing to do.
Edited on Wed Aug-04-04 12:54 PM by bowens43
Proposing legislation to reinstate the draft to oppose the war is ridiculous. I know what the motivation is I just think that it's misguided. If my Representative was to suggest this he would not get my vote in November.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. The Dem bills are irrelevant, you only need the DRAFT if
there are no foreign troops brought in to stabilize Iraq, or if you plan to invade more countries. Kerry is incresing the military to AVOID REINSTATEMENT. You're not going to avoid reinstatement if you don't increase the military. Think about it.

Many rumors have been floating around the Internet about the possibility of the draft restarting on June 15, 2005. The press meanwhile has not reported the actual facts, just as they have “somehow” ignored that Bush invaded Iraq for its oil and is letting his oil industry cronies make off with all the booty by the tankerful.

Here are the actual facts on the possibility of the draft returning.

First of all, the draft never really left us. Selective Service has been registering people for over twenty years and at any moment the President can go to Congress and ask them to reauthorize conscription. It doesn’t take much to imagine a re-elected Bush going to Congress and saying “We cannot cut and run from Iraq or the War on Terror. I need you to reauthorize conscription.” Would a re-elected Republican Congress give it to him? You bet. An article in the July 13 issue of Family Circle reported that Rove surveyed Republican members of Congress to see if they would support the President if the draft needed to be reinstated. The answer was they would.

And they would not have to pass a whole new draft law to do it. All that is needed is a “trigger resolution”, which could be passed in an afternoon—and bingo! No debate, no regular bill, just a short resolution passed quickly in the dead of night and the draft is back for men 18 to 26.

That is why the Democratic draft legislation being offered by Rangel and Hollings is totally irrelevant. These are known protest bills and actually propose drafting women, just to make sure they will never see the light of day. Rangel and Hollings offered them to raise the issue and confront Bush. Hollings even said he wouldn’t vote for his own bill!

They are not needed—and the press and the Republicans will bring them up as red herrings to distract everyone from what is really going on: Bush is spending $28 million this year to reduce draft activation time from the usual 193 days all the way down to 75 days. He is quietly, behind the scenes, oiling up the draft machinery—getting ready to reinstate for the Spring of 2005.

The major media cover hardly anything that John Kerry says, especially if it is about the draft. So you would never know it, but John Kerry has a No-Draft Plan, a plan to strengthen the military in key areas yet draw down U.S. troop levels in Iraq by internationalizing the situation and then getting out as soon as possible.

Here are the five main points of Kerry’s No-Draft Plan:

1. Move some paper-pushers to combat (lots of potential there)

2. Increase enlistment with real scholarships, benefits and pay raises

3. Let troops know Special Ops will hunt al-Queda, no more invasions needed, so re-up rate goes up. "Primarily a law enforcement effort, not a full military effort", said John Kerry on Meet The Press.

4. Start a "Civilian Stability Corps" that would help in reconstructing Afghanistan and Iraq and relieve military pressure. It would be kind of like the Peace Corps—but on steroids.

5. GET FOREIGN TROOPS TO COME INTO INSTEAD OF LEAVE IRAQ.

Kerry gave some details about the proposed Civilian Stability Corps, made up of volunteers:

"...I propose that we enlist thousands of them in a Civilian Stability Corps, a reserve organization of volunteers ready to help win the peace in troubled places. Like military reservists, they will have peacetime jobs; but in times of national need, they will be called into service to restore roads, renovate schools, open hospitals, repair power systems, draft a constitution, or build a police force. A Civilian Stability Corps can bring the best of America to the worst of the world—and reduce pressure on the military."
- Source: Kerry, John. "Protecting Our Military Families in Times of War: A Military Family Bill of Rights." March 17, 2004. http://johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0317.html >

In April, on a conference call with 130 College Newspaper Editors, Kerry said “No Draft”, that he would have a sensible foreign policy that would not require reinstatement. And in June, Kerry told a Wisconsin high school that if elected, a draft would be "absolutely unnecessary".

Kerry’s plan calls for increasing active-duty troop levels by 40,000 people. He also doubles the number of Special Ops troops. Half the 40,000 being added are civil engineering/reconstruction specialists and half are combat, costing an extra $7 billion, but it relieves the pressure on the Guard and Reserves for overseas deployments and essentially saves the Volunteer Army. $7 billion is well worth not having to bring back the draft!

Kerry charges that Bush is ruining the Volunteer approach with long Guard and Reserve deployments and numerous stop-loss orders, which Kerry says is a “Back-door Draft”. Since Kerry will increase pay, benefits, scholarships and reduce long deployments of regular troops and the reserves, if he is elected the re-enlistment rates and recruitment rates will return to normal. Recently, troops returning from Iraq are reportedly leaving the Service in huge numbers, although denied by DoD (see David Hackworth, Voting With their Feet http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38644).

With this No-Draft Plan, Kerry will not have to resort to conscription, even after Bush has made such a mess of it in Iraq. Kerry has also pledged that he will push renewable energy development and true energy independence, “so that we never again have soldiers dying for oil”.

Kerry has criticized the inequality of the draft, that the poor and minorities are inducted in higher numbers than their fair share and that the draft is a source of conflict. John Kerry will not reinstate the draft—outside of the invasion of the United States by China or something like that.

The choice is thus clear to all voters. Vote for Bush and you are also voting for the resumption of the draft—to man his hidden agenda of invading more countries and staying in Iraq forever.

Or vote for Kerry and you are voting PNAC out of the White House, and with it Bush’s hidden agenda to bring back the draft so U.S. companies can dominate the world’s remaining oil supply.

Finally, a draft is morally reprehensible, an infringement of freedom against the principles of the Constitution. We know that Bush cares nothing about morality when it comes to Iraq and that Kerry has over the years always expressed real opposition to the draft for a number of moral and ethical reasons. Having lived through the Vietnam era, Kerry knows well the long history of conflict and opposition that the draft has wrought.

John Kerry will not reinstate the draft, but Bush is secretly gearing up the whole system right now for the summer of next year.

Moral opposition to conscription goes all the way back to the year 1814. In a response to a proposed draft to fight the British, Daniel Webster perhaps said it best:

“Is this, sir, consistent with the character of a free government? Is this civil liberty? Is this the real character of our Constitution? No, sir, indeed it is not.

"The Constitution is libeled, foully libeled. The people of this country have not established for themselves such a fabric of despotism. They have not purchased at a vast expense of their own treasure and their own blood a Magna Carta to be slaves.

"Where is it written in the Constitution, in what article or section is it contained, that you may take children from their parents, and parents from their children, and compel them to fight the battles of any war, in which the folly or the wickedness of government may engage it?"

BUSH ’04 = DRAFT ‘05

KERRY '04 = PNAC OUT THE DOOR!!
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sable302 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. just wait
as soon as Kerry is elected, suddenly all the Dems will be against the draft, and all the Republicans will insist that we must have one immediately.
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rangerfan Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I think just the opposite, because the bills to reinstate the draft have
been introduced by Democrats (Hollings and Rangel). If Kerry wins the Repubs will get behind these bills to make Kerry look bad. If Bush wins they'll see that they are defeated so as to not make Bush look bad. May be pessimistic of me but that's the way I see it.
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Commendatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
31. You could be right. I hope not.
My guess is that Bush, should he win, will have less to lose. Sounds simplistic, but the draft would come up under Kerry only if he wants to be one-term.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Yeah, those "civilian contractors" are too damned expensive
Edited on Wed Aug-04-04 12:27 PM by HereSince1628
they are definitely budget busters, a conscriptee is cheap.

The problem with all this build up the military crap is that there is a real security problem at ports. Unfortunately, the Coast Guard hasn't got the clout to get the money or the manpower to fix it.

Can anyone remember when the last person was drafted into the Coast Guard?

That thought has prompted today's research topic for my suspense/action fiction manuscript...I am in need of dialogue among HSD staff this will be amusing for a while...
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GeorgeMaschke Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. To recruit more soldiers, raise military pay!
The draft may soon be claimed to be necessary because not enough people are volunteering. But there's a common-sense solution that doesn't require involuntary servitude: raise military pay!

Of course, another alternative would be to end our military adventurism...
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. The Draft is a political hot potato
No one, not even Kerry, will pass a Draft.

Recruitment for the armed forces did not rise after 9/11 and DECLINED after the start of the 2003 Iraq War, so yes, I can see why a Draft would be important to maintain the empire, but passing a Draft would be a political defeat for Bush, who could lose Congress for the Repukes over this, and would make Kerry a one-term wonder, should he win this November.

Most likely, if a Draft is passed, they will pass a water down version of one, called "community service," or in a Prez Kerry's case wait until their 2nd term in office, but even that would be detrimental to Dem's hopes of retaking Congress.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Actually Rove polled the GOP caucus on the DRAFT and
Edited on Wed Aug-04-04 12:31 PM by Dems Will Win
they agreed to support REINSTATEMENT OF THE DRAFT IF BUSH ASKS FOR IT!
(Family Circle July 13, 2004)

So the Democrats do not want the DRAFT, but Rove and Bush are preparing for it.

Know what you are talking about or do not talk like you know what you are talking about please. This is a serious issue.

If you don't know something basic like Rove having already surveyed the GOP Congress on the DRAFT, then just ask questions.

WHEN REPORTERS DO AN ARTICLE ON THE DRAFT THEY CALL ME UP TO GET THEIR FACTS STRAIGHT, THAT'S HOW MUCH I'VE STUDIED THIS.

ASK ME ANYTHING!
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Did Rove poll the nation?
Polling the GOP members of Congress does not mean that the Draft would be accepted by the rest of the nation.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. I was thinking about this as well
I can't see how there couldn't be a draft. We are in so deep, enlistment is down and we can't get out. What's that word nobody wanted to mention before? QUAGMIRE? Anyway, I'm divided. I feel we'll never be able to restore peace there and so we should just cut out, but that seems so irresponsible. Definitely if we stay we can't do it alone. In his acceptance speech, Kerry said that we must regain the trust of our allies and ask for help. That would be ideal, but unless a specific outline is presented to them with specific dates et al, I don't see them helping us. However, I do think Kerry will put out all the stops before we get to an impending draft. However Bush doesn't care about America. He doesn't even care about his own party. To me there is nothing more dangerous than Bush in office EXCEPT Bush in office when he knows there is no chance of a third term. I don't think he gives a damn whether Republicans win in 2008 so there is nothing to reign him in. He's an arrogant little snot who will do anything he feels like. He does not value human life (see Governor's 152 death penalty victims in add. to WOT) and I have no doubt in my mind he'd send thousands to their deaths to save a nickel on gas.
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Wright Patman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. So your premise
Edited on Wed Aug-04-04 12:20 PM by Wright Patman
would be that the only reason Iraq has not been stabilized to pump the hoped-for 6 million barrels per day by now is that there are not half a million or more soldiers guarding their oilfields and pipelines?

I think the more soldiers we pour into that region, the higher the "risk premium" per barrel (now estimated at $10 or more) goes.

Anyone ever heard of peace? What a concept. I have always been told that the absolute worst place to have a perpetual war or threat thereof is in or near an oilfield or the infrastructure related thereto such as all the refineries along the Persian Gulf.
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brokensymmetry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think you're right.
If * is elected, yes, there will be a draft. If Senator Kerry is elected, I don't think he'll have a choice.

Iraq is a mess, and it's not getting better. Saudi Arabia is becoming less stable. And Iran? That's not getting better either.

No, I think a draft is certain. And I'm not at all sure that a mandatory national service program for those of us on the wrong side of 50 won't come to pass. Interesting times are coming, in my opinion.

If only we'd listened to President Carter and worked on energy independence. Lots of good people will suffer as a consequence of not doing something back then.
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
11. I think a draft is certain
Although Kerry didn't start this war, he'll be obliged to finish it.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. I think you're right.
Unless Kerry does a turnaround on his pro-military stance and gets us out of Iraq fast, there will be no way to avoid it. The empire is spread too thin and the surrogates aren't lining up to do the dirty work for the bosses.

Without a doubt, the flightsuit hero will find an excuse to start the draft to bring about his vision of the American Empire.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. You're wrong. Fuzzy math. Look at the numbers. Add it up again
Kerry will get the Europeans to put in sizable numbers of troops as soon as he lets the Iraqis have their own oil and they sell it to the French and the Russians and the Germans, not just the US and England.

Then we will have about 60,000 to 80,000 troops in Iraq by 2006 and you certainly don't need a draft for that small a deployment. Many more than that join up every year as volunteers, and that will stay steady as soon as the Silver Star veteran replaces the AWOL Commander in Chief.

Bush only needs the draft because recruits won't sign up for him, just Kerry. And the French, Russians and Germans won't play unless they get oil for blood. Plus Bush has a 3-year plan to invade 5 more countries, as Wes Clark revealed in his book:

“I went back through the Pentagon in November 2001, and one of the senior military staff officers had time for a chat. Yes, we were still on track for going against Iraq, he said. But there was more. This was being discussed as part of a five-year campaign plan, he said, and there were a total of seven countries, beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia, and Sudan. So, I thought, this is what they mean when they talk about ‘draining the swamp.’"

Add it up. Bush/Draft, Kerry/NO Draft!
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Wishful thinking.
The Europeans aren't about to jump into the briar patch unless the U.S. relinquishes control of the military. Kerry hasn't the balls to do that. Unless, he gets the troops out, he'll have to put in more troops to try govern to the ungovernable. The Iraqis are going to throw us out. It's get out now, or get thrown out later.

As to volunteers, "Who wants to be the last man to die for a mistake?"
They're not dumb enough to be breaking down the doors of the recruiters now, they sure as hell aren't going to be as the quagmire continues to fill the bodybags.

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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Wrong again. Kerry has already said NATO would be put in charge
of American troops. Just like Kosovo.

And how come those of you convinced Kerry would have to restart the draft never mention Bosnia and Kosovo, where NATO ran the show and the UN then came in to reconstruct and there have been ZERO American deaths.

Iraq is admittedly more difficult, but you all must concede that Clinton and Holbrooke fixed that mess as much as possible and there were ZERO, repeat ZERO American dead.

Now how many of you "Kerry=draft" people even know that Kerry plans to appoint that same Richard Holbrooke, easily the most talented US diplomat of our time to be the new Secretary of State??

Kerry and Clark and Holbrooke will eventually fix this mess just like Clinton and Clark and Holbrooke stabilized Bosnia, Serbia and Kosovo--and a non-nationalist government just won in Serbia, BTW.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. "more difficult"?
You have a knack for understatement.

How many trains did the Kosovars, Bosnians, Croats, or Serbs blow up in Spain? How many hostages did they take and threaten more if the NATO countries didn't pull out.

You overlook the fact that intervention in Bosnia/Kosovo was an intervention favored by the people of Europe.

Do you really believe that Kerry/Holbrooke/whoever can persuade the likes of Shroeder or Chirac or Putin to commit troops to Iraq under the very real threat of endangering their own citizenry in an unpopular occupation with no end in sight? Just because Kerry and Holbrooke won't scorn them? Not to mention the spectacle of Aznar looming over them.

I think not.

It's cut and run now, or cut and run later.

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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. If Kerry asks the French--in French of course--they will give him troops
He even looks French!

Seriously, don't you think ELF Aquitane wants to be able to sidle up to those Iraqi oil spigots again?

No blood, no oil. No blood, no future oil exploration either. No blood, no reconstruction contracts and little future business with Iraq. Iraq has always been a big deal for France and Germany.

I do think Kerry will try to defeat the insurgents with Special Forces and Marines in the now-lost cities.

You could break the country up into three and leave. But the problem is the Sunni Baathists will always try to take the whole of Iraq back, and so Kerry will try and defeat them first, I am sure.

Bush is a moron. Clark and Kerry could win the main battle with Special Ops in a few months but probably at least 500 of ours would die and at least 20,000 Iraqi Baathists and al-Sadr militia.

It's that or hundreds of thousands dead any other way and Iraq becomes a failed state breeding thousands more terrorists.

Think this is what Kerry, Clark and Holbrooke are looking at.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Sure he does. And, he believes (rightly) that the way to do so
is to stay the hell out of it until the Americans are thrown out.

Special Ops? Marines? Why not send Spiderman? Or,the Terminator? As an ex-marine, I can assure you that marines, special ops, green berets, and all the other super-troops are only slightly more effective killers. The problem with your scenario is that the more we kill, torture, abuse, the more enemies we make. Don't believe it? Israel has tried to subdue the Palestinians for decades with elite forces, assasinations, setting up "settlements", divide and conquer tactics, downright slaughter, and every other conceivable means other than dealing with the actual problem. How well do you think it has worked?

The problem in Iraq is the American occupation. The troops are creating the chaos. Iraq "may" end up having a period of turmoil after we finally leave, whether it's now or later, but we aren't going to stop it by having our troops add to, and engender, the bloodletting. We aren't about to gain Sunni support by killing the Baathists, or the Shia by knocking off Muqtada Sadr, with all of the ensuing "collateral damage".

The way out of Iraq, the way to "stabilize" the situation, is to turn the country we stole over to the people who own it.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. And you think that's what Kerry should tell the people he plans to do?
We should cut and run, vote for me?

See, that's why Kerry's got to at least say he will try and stabilize Iraq.

What he actually does after the election is another story.

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Let's hope so.
I don't think it will be nearly so easy for him to eat his words, if he's elected. The "I have a secret plan" BS worked for Nixon. Perhaps it will work for Kerry. I was hoping for a lot more from him.

Well, I'll be holding my nose and vote for him, but if he's elected (and, that's a very big "if" considering the many variables), he'd damned sure better get some sort of realistic plan together and working or he's going to get mighty lonely.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Even Teresa will avoid him if he doesn't do right, you know!
The First Goddess will keep him true!
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. :}
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Don't count on the Europeans bailing out Kerry or the USA
With the insurgency well under way in Iraq, Europe, including Russia, who already said that they're not sending in troops no matter who is US Prez, Germany, who is anti-Iraq war, and France, who will be reminded of the Battle for Algiers, are not going to have popular support to send in their troops to straighten out our mess no matter how much oil Kerry bribes them with.

The new Spanish PM has already "flipped the bird" at Kerry when Spain withdrew its troops, so I don't see a mad rush from Europe to help Kerry, who voted for and supports this war.

The only ally of ours, who was gung-ho about this war, is Israel, and we know what Israel's reputation in the Arab and Muslim world is, don't we?

The only way Europe may be able to help us in Iraq may cost us not only in oil, but in lots of political points with Israel and her lobbyists in Washington, by demanding that we stop supporting Ariel Sharon and his apartheid policies. Will Kerry be willing to risk the ire of AIPAC for possible peace in Iraq? The war against Iraq was really to help Israel secure oil and water for itself and to have a launching pad to strike Iran and Syria.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. just remember: Germany has a draft
Which is exactly why no large number of German troops will be sent to Iraq under any circumstances.
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MISSDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
17. I think that all eighteen year olds should
have to serve, no exceptions period, male and female. But they should not fight in wars. Let the soldiers who are trained in the military academies, etc. do that.
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MUSTANG_2004 Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. Then why draft them?
If they aren't needed for a war, why would you draft someone in the first place?

Personally, I think the draft for anyone is horrible. If someone doesn't think a particular cause is worth their life, I don't think we have the right to tell them otherwise.
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ASanders84 Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
46. Huh?
No thanks, I'll pass on that.
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
22. I brought up the same basic thing about 3 wks ago
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SheepyMcSheepster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
24. my question about the draft
how are they going to make people show up? what will be the consequences of being a conscientious objector? I don't think i know many people who would willingly report for duty if they were drafted be involved with this situation. I think these are far different times compared to the vietnam draft.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. CO status isn't so easy to get. Resistance = prison.
But, you're right. It isn't like Vietnam times. People then, for the most part, accepted the draft as just a fact of life for poor people. Whoever reinstates it, is in for a shitload of trouble.
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SheepyMcSheepster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. how long in prison?
any idea as to what the average sentence was for one who refused to serve?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. A real guess.
As I recall, it was about 1-2 years.
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CaTeacher Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. I am friends with quite a few
people who claimed CO status due to their religion, their religious group--the Quakers filed with the federal government a statement that says their belief is to be conscientious objectors. This status has been approved for them in every war starting with WW1.

These people do not serve in combat roles--but they do not stay home either. They go when they are called--but as a CO. They are usually given jobs that put them right in the danger zone--but they are not required to kill others--most of them are trained to work as medics on the front line. I know many people who have done this throughout the years.

CO status does not mean that you stay stateside or even far from the line of fire. Most of these people ended up very very close to the action. But the military will respect your conscientious objection to killing another person (if you can prove that is your belief)--and is able to put you in a role where you are not toting a rifle.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. I achieved Conscientious Objector Status in the Seventies
Like I said, Ask me anything!

You can get CO status too, especially in a big city that's liberal. But it's chancy.

MODS: FOLLOWING OK TO POST IN FULL (PSA from Col. Wiggins)

how to stay out of the military
primer on draft resistance
by David Wiggins

please note: all articles, information, agencies, paperwork, and other resources mentioned here are located at the bottom of this page.
The legal requirement to register for the draft demands a decision: give up your freedom and your conscience, or conscientiously resist. All the good reasons that would prevent a free man from volunteering for military service, also apply to resisting the draft. How in a "free country" can the first requirement of a young man, when he comes of age, be to sign up to accept orders to kill for the state in an organized way? There is never a need to compel a free man to take up a cause that is both necessary and just; but a man who is drafted is never free, and thus his cause can never be assumed to be either necessary or just.

The draft is not simply an academic interest. There is not enough military manpower to sustain the commitments the President has already undertaken. We constantly hear that our troops are "stretched too thin." To assist the United States, both the President and Secretary of State have made serious requests for significant military manpower contributions from other nations. These requests have largely fallen on deaf ears. The President has repeatedly stated he will not "back down" meaning, we must assume, that the military forces will continue to be "thinly stretched." Where will they find relief? It appears they are looking at young Americans who are free to volunteer for military duty, but in good conscience, choose not to do so.

With certain exceptions, all men residing in the United States are required to register for the draft within 30 days of their 18th birthday. The obligation of a man to register is imposed by the Military Selective Service Act, which establishes and governs the operations of the Selective Service System.

In addition to the Military Selective Service Act, the "Health Care Personnel Delivery System" was authorized by Congress in 1987 to deal with large-scale casualties that outstripped the active-duty military's ability to handle them. If implemented, the bill would require a mass registration of male and female health care workers between the ages of 20 and 45. At this time; however, the Selective Service has no statutory authority to draft medical personnel. That authorization would be provided by legislation to be introduced and passed in Congress at the time of a national defense mobilization. That "M-Day" legislative package has not been made available for public comment or congressional debate. See the Center on Conscience and War’s "Health Care Professionals and the Draft" for details regarding the Health Care Personnel Delivery System.

The Pentagon is considering other "special skills" drafts, to include military linguists, computer experts, or engineers, which could arise from other immediate needs. "We're going to elevate that kind of draft to be a priority," said Lewis Brodsky, acting director of the Selective Service System.

A bill before the House Armed Services Committee would require the induction of young men into the military "to receive basic military training and education for a period of up to one year." Representatives Nick Smith and Curt Weldon sponsored the bill, called the "Universal Military Training and Service Act," introduced last fall. The measure is currently before the Armed Services Committee. Youth & Militarism Magazine, published by the American Friends Service Committee, contains an excellent article, "It’s Not Your Father’s Draft," describing this proposed draft.

Deciding What To Do

Deciding what to do when faced with Registration or the Draft can be a difficult and life-altering decision. If you choose to resist, it is helpful to keep two things in mind:

First, if you stand by your convictions, you cannot lose, and the government cannot win. The government may handcuff you or lock you up, but they cannot make you fight. If you give up any freedom, it is completely on your terms. In contrast, if you allow yourself to be coerced into military duties you risk death, disease, and disability, all for a cause you do not believe in.

Second, if you choose to resist, you will be treated as an adversary by the government. The government is no longer your friend ? if it ever was. You can expect the Selective Service to use every legal method and argument at their disposal to get you to abandon your convictions and to follow orders.

Keep records carefully, and make your own file of every transaction with the Selective Service, including phone calls. Do not rely on oral promises from Selective Service officials. Put things in writing, and attach receipts and even envelopes to the correspondence in your file. A second set of those records should be in the custody of someone you can rely on to forward copies as needed. When you make a record of a transaction with Selective Service, you should send a copy to Selective Service for inclusion in your file with the Area Office. When local boards become operational, you can see and copy information in your file. You can authorize others to do so on your behalf. Send your letters and claims to Selective Service by Certified Mail, Return Receipt Requested. Observe all deadlines scrupulously. Be sure to include your Selective Service number. Sign and date all papers submitted.

Get help. Check out how the counselor you are consulting was trained. Most attorneys know nothing about Selective Service law; ask their qualifications. Draft counselors will tend to know about qualified attorneys. There are two qualified national counseling organizations: The Center on Conscience & War (CCW), and the Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors (CCCO).

Choosing To Not Register

On a percentage basis, not registering is the most likely way to prevent you from being drafted. The book Chance and Circumstance states that between 250,000 and 2 million males did not register for the draft during the Vietnam War. According to reports from the Selective Service System, forty percent of the men who are required to register for the draft don't register in the sixty-day time period required by law. At least one or two percent still haven't registered by the time they are twenty. At age 26 they are no longer allowed to register. Thus, the number of permanent non-registrants increases daily. There is a known minimum of at least 300,000 people, perhaps a million, who are becoming permanent non-registrants.

If you refuse to register with Selective Service, you'll receive threatening letters, at first politely reminding you to register, then threatening prosecution, finally informing you that your name has been turned over to the Department of Justice for possible prosecution. These sound scary, but they're mostly bluff. No one has been formally charged since 1986.

In the early 1980s, 21 men were indicted for refusal to register: 19 of those 21 were public resisters. Wherever there were trials, the rates of registration actually went down. This resistance halted prosecutions

Penalties for Failure to Register

The penalty for failing to register can be up to five years in jail and/or a fine of up to $250,000. In peacetime, with registration only, the regular maximum penalties are four months and/or $2500. If you don't register, you become ineligible for federal student aid, federal job training or civil service employment. Below, is a summary of the penalties you will face:

STUDENT FINANCIAL AID
Men, born after December 31, 1959, who aren't registered with Selective Service won't qualify for Federal student loans or grant programs. This includes Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans.

CITIZENSHIP
The U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) makes registration with Selective Service a condition for U.S. citizenship if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.

FEDERAL JOB TRAINING
The Workforce Investment Act (formerly called the Job Training Partnership Act ? JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service. This applies only to men born after December 31, 1959.

FEDERAL JOBS
A man must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service. This applies only to men born after December 31, 1959.

Some states have added additional penalties for those who fail to register. See State Legislation.

A tactic used by many states is to require driver license applicant’s to register. These states require a consent statement on all applications or renewals for driver’s permits, licenses, and identification cards. The statement tells the applicant that by submitting the application he is consenting to his registration with the Selective Service if so required by Federal law. Transmission of applicant data to the Selective Service is accomplished electronically through an existing arrangement each state has with the data sharing system of the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators.

As of August 28, 2003, 32 states, 2 territories, and the District of Columbia have enacted driver's license laws supporting SSS registration. They are: (1) Enacted and Implemented ? Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, West Virginia, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, the Virgin Islands, and the District of Columbia; (2) Enacted But Not Yet Implemented - Arizona, Kentucky, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Wisconsin

Aid for Those Who Do Not Register

The good news is that there are alternative funds for financial aid for those who cannot register for war because they believe registration is wrong. A few colleges will provide scholarships to make up for the government money denied. Mennonites, the Church of the Brethren, Quakers, Presbyterians and Lutherans have such limited assistance funds to support non-registrants in their own groups. There is a general fund, the Fund for Education and Training (FEAT), which supports those who do not qualify for the other programs. FEAT also would aid those who are denied job-training programs for refusing to register for the draft.

Appealing the Penalties for Failure to Register

A non-registrant may not be denied any benefit if he can "show by a preponderance of evidence" that his failure to register was not knowing and willful. You will have to describe, in detail, the circumstances you believe prevented you from registering and provide copies of documents showing any periods when you were hospitalized, institutionalized, or incarcerated occurring between your 18th and 26th birthdays. If you are a non-citizen, you may be required to provide documents that show when you entered the United States

The benefit agency official handling your case, not the Selective Service, will determine whether you have shown that your failure to register was not a knowing and willful failure to register. The final decision regarding your eligibility for the benefit that you seek will be made by that same agency, (for example, for student financial aid, this would be the Department of Education.) With some agencies, an appeals process is available.

Registering Late, Change of Address

Legally, at any moment until your twenty-sixth birthday, Selective Service must accept your draft registration card. Some young men delay registration until the year in which they turn 21, or even until just before turning 26. This method takes advantage of the way the draft lottery works.

A lottery based on birthdays determines the order in which registered men are called up by Selective Service. The first to be called, in a sequence determined by the lottery, will be men whose 20th birthday falls during that year, followed, if needed, by those aged 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25. In other words, under present law, which might change with a new draft, Selective Service would first select randomly among those who turned 20 in the calendar year of the call-up. In practice, while it's possible that a draft could move beyond the age-20 selection group, the odds are against it.

It is important to remember that, once registered, even if it is the day before your 26th birthday, you are once again eligible for federal and state assistance.

Change of Address

Registrants are required to notify Selective Service within ten days of any changes to any of the information provided on the registration card, such as a change of address. According to the Center on Conscience and War, very few registrants are doing so. A registrant must report changes until January 1 of the year he turns 26. To notify Selective Service, mark your change(s) on the Change Information Form attached to the Registration acknowledgment Card and mail it to Selective Service, or complete a Change of Information Form, SSS Form 2, which you can obtain at any U.S. Post Office or U.S. Embassy or Consulate office. You may also notify Selective Service of any change by letter, but be sure to include your full name, Social Security Account Number, Selective Service Number, and date of birth, as well as your new mailing address

If the registrant forgets to notify the Selective Service of any address changes, or if the Selective Service loses that notification, the Selective Service may have difficulty finding and notifying the registrant of induction in case of a draft.

If you don't register before you turn 26, you will not be allowed to register, even if you change your mind. You'd then be permanently barred from such benefits, unless Congress or the courts act to change the law. A person who fails to register by age 26 may use the same appeals process as described above, under the section "Choosing To Not Register."

Registering But Resisting Induction

If you decide to register:


• Find a post office for your registration that has an accessible photocopier.
• Print in legible black ink across the middle of the registration form: I AM A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR TO WAR IN ANY FORM. This is not a classification, but it may help you later to document your position as a CO. Selective Service makes no record of this declaration in its computer files, but they do make a microfilm record of the registration card. You should make a copy of your card for your file.
• Make a photocopy of your registration form for your own records. Date it, fold and seal it, and mail it to yourself. The postmark confirms the date.
• Put a complete statement of your conscientious objector beliefs on file with your religious body, the CCW, the CCCO, or any other counseling agency.

After registration, Selective Service will send a "registration acknowledgement" letter, which repeats the information the registrant gave on the form and supplies a Selective Service Number. If any of the information is incorrect, the registrant may return the accompanying Form 3B to correct any mistakes. The registrant can retain this letter, Form 3A, as proof of his registration.

Before anyone can be drafted, Congress and the President would have to enact legislation authorizing new draft calls. If this happens, one can apply for various postponements and reclassifications to delay induction, or to avoid it entirely.

Filing for postponement or reclassification

Selective Service regulations are filled with loopholes, postponements, and reclassifications for those who will not or cannot be drafted. A registrant can file a claim only after receipt of an order to report for induction and before the day he is scheduled to report (this means within 10 days). If you were called up, you would receive an induction notice requiring you to report on a certain date not less than 10 days from the date of the notice, to a Military Entrance Processing Station (MEPS) unless you filed a claim for exemption or deferment. Filing a claim involves no more than checking a box on a form, and submitting it to the Selective Service.

After the Selective Service receives the claim, they will send you more forms to complete. You must apply for any and all exemptions for which you think you may qualify, and/or for classification as a conscientious objector. A registrant automatically gets his induction delayed if he files a claim for reclassification. He is also entitled to file for a postponement if he is a student or if he has an emergency beyond his control, such as a serious illness or death in his immediate family. The induction date will be postponed until the draft board evaluates the validity of the claim. The Selective Service publishes a booklet titled "Information for Registrants" which lists each category of claim for postponement of induction into the armed forces and each type of reclassification to become exempt from the draft. Under each heading (accessible by the web) is a detailed description of the qualifications and requirements for each category. The major headings are listed below.

Postponements


1. Student Postponements
2. Emergency Postponements
3. Religious Holiday Postponements
4. Other Postponements
-State or National Examination Scheduled
-Military Academy Acceptance
-Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) Applicant
-Acceptance for Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) Program

Reclassifications


1. Members of the Armed Forces of the United States, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration or the Public Health Service (Class 1-C)
2. Deferment of Certain Members of a Reserve Component or Students Taking Military Training (Class 1-D-D)
3. Exemption of Certain Members of a Reserve Component or Student Taking Military Training (Class 1-D-E)
4. Conscientious Objectors Available for Noncombatant Military Service Only (Class 1-A-O)
5. Conscientious Objectors to All Military Service (Class 1-O)
6. Conscientious Objectors to All Military Service (Separated from Military Service) (Class 1-O-S)
7. Registrant Deferred Because of Study Preparing for the Ministry (Class 2-D)
8. Registrant Deferred Because of Hardship to Dependents (Class 3-A)
9. Registrant Deferred Because of Hardship to Dependents (Separated from Military Service) (Class 3-A-S)
10. Registrant Who Has Completed Military Service (Class 4-A)
11. Registrant Who Has Performed Military Service for a Foreign Nation (Class 4-A-A)
12. Official Deferred by Law (Class 4-B)
13. Alien or Dual National (Class 4-C)
14. Treaty Alien (Class 4-T)
15. Minister of Religion (Class 4-D)
16. Registrant Exempted from Service Because of the Death of His Parent or Sibling While Serving in the Armed Forces or Whose Parent or Sibling is in a Captured or Missing in Action Status (Class 4-G)
17. Registrant Not Acceptable for Military Service (Class 4-F)

For a hard copy of the above information, write to Consumer Information Center, Pueblo, CO 81009, and ask for "Information for Registrants." Enclose $1 for processing, payable to Superintendent of Documents. The CCCO, CCW and other counseling agencies will probably also have copies of this document available.

Conscientious Objectors

Conscientious Objection is the category of reclassification of most interest to the majority of draft resisters. In fact, every draft resister is a conscientious objector in his own way. According to the Selective Service, a conscientious objector is one who is opposed to serving in the armed forces and/or bearing arms on the grounds of moral or religious principles. Beliefs which qualify a registrant for CO status may be religious in nature, but don't have to be. Beliefs may be moral or ethical, but according to the Selective Service, a man's reasons for not wanting to participate in a war must not be based on politics, expediency, or self-interest. In general, the man's lifestyle prior to making his claim must reflect his current claims.

Be aware that, while similar, regulations regarding Conscientious Objection differ for members of the military forces. For more information on claiming Conscientious Objector status while a member of the Armed Forces, see "Advice For Conscientious Objectors in the Armed Forces" by Robert Seeley on the CCCO website.

Conscientious objectors should begin to document their claims well in advance of being drafted since otherwise, their time will be very limited. COs should have prepared in advance a file which documents their beliefs. At the minimum, this file should include the photocopy of the registration card, a comprehensive statement of beliefs, and letters of support for this statement. The CCW website has articles with detailed instructions on how to prepare your statement of beliefs and letters of support. There, you may also sign on to the Conscientious Objector Affirmation. Such evidence can be presented to the local board that will hear the claim for a CO classification. Compiling this file should be done with supervision from a qualified draft counselor or agency such as CCW or CCCO.

If you have one, get on record with your religious organization, especially if there is an official registrar. File a provisional version of your claim with them and/or with the CCW or CCCO. Request an analysis of your claim with your counselor. Arrange for letters of support (signed and dated) and documentation of your belief and a life-style consistent with your claim. Arrange for witnesses and an advisor in advance of your hearing.

If you don’t have legal advice, get it. Keep your own file about your beliefs about war and the draft. Keep records of all transactions with the Selective Service System. Many local peace centers have information. The Center on Conscience & Warfare (CCW) provides a counseling service by mail and phone, and publishes aids for thinking out what you believe and what to do. So does the CCCO, the Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors.

Be sure to learn the procedure for obtaining conscientious objection status.

In general, once a man gets a notice that he has been found qualified for military service (i.e., receives an induction letter), he has the opportunity to make a claim for classification as a conscientious objector (CO). If a registrant believes he can qualify for Class 1-O, he should complete the Claim Documentation Form, Conscientious Objector (SSS Form 22), provided by his Area Office and return the form to the Area Office with documents and written statements to support his claim. Form 22 asks the applicant to answer three questions.


1. Describe your beliefs that are the reasons for your claiming conscientious objection to combatant military training and service or to all military training and service.
2. Describe how and when you acquired these beliefs
3. Explain what most clearly shows that your beliefs are deeply held. You may wish to include a description of how your beliefs affect the way you live.

You should begin preparing answers to these questions as soon as you decide to claim Conscientious Objector status. The Center on Conscience and War provides an excellent worksheet to help you.

A registrant making a claim for Conscientious Objection is required to appear before his local board to explain his beliefs. Claimants for hardship or ministerial classification may also request a personal appearance. At a personal appearance you will have at least twenty minutes, and may present up to three witnesses. You may be accompanied by an advisor, and may request that the meeting be open. You cannot use a recorder at the meeting; but you can submit your own summary within five days after the hearing.

If a claim of conscientious objector status is granted, Selective Service regulations state that the registrant must perform alternative service. Of course, one may also choose to resist or refuse alternative service for reasons of conscience. Likely Alternative Service jobs are in the fields of conservation, caring for the very young or very old, education, or health care. Length of service in the program will equal the amount of time a man would have been assigned to the military.

Appealing a Claim That Is Denied

The local board will decide whether to grant or deny a CO classification based on the evidence a registrant has presented. If your claim is rejected, you will receive a new induction date. The CCCO, CCW, and others can help you find lawyers and/or counselors to help you through the lengthy appeals process. The board must give reasons for rejection of your claim. You may appeal a Local Board's decision to a Selective Service District Appeal Board. If the Appeal Board also denies your claim, but the vote is not unanimous, you may further appeal the decision to the National Appeal Board

Refusing Induction

You do, in good conscience, object to Registration and the Draft. This does not change simply because the Selective Service denies your claim. Since there is currently no draft, there are no rules governing those who refuse induction. Historically, draft resisters have been prosecuted and penalized in some manner. You can expect the same. If you choose to refuse induction or were successful using one of the methods described above, you will join a long line of conscientious objectors proud to have defended their freedom to make their own conscientious decisions, and your freedom to do the same. For their stories, check out one of the many books currently available on conscientious objectors and conscientious objection. If you let your conscience be your guide, not your fear or doubt or uncertainty, you will always make a good decision, you will always be free, and you will never regret it.

Contact Information


• Center on Conscience & War (NISBCO)
1830 Connecticut Ave. NW, Washington, DC 20009
202-483-2220
800-379-2679
Fax: 202-483-1246
nisbco@nisbco.org
• Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors (CCCO)
1515 Cherry St., Philadelphia, PA 19102
215-563-8787
Fax 215-567-2096
info@objector.org
• CCCO West
630 20th Street Oakland, CA 94612
510-465-1617
Fax 510-465-2459
info@objector.org

References

Organizations

• The Selective Service System
• The Center on Conscience & War (CCW)
• The Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors (CCCO)
• The American Friends Service Committee (AFSC)

Articles

• "Medical Workers Face Military Draft" WorldNet Daily
• "It’s Not Your Father’s Draft" Youth & Militarism Magazine

Appendix 1: SEQUENCE OF EVENTS

Here is a brief overview of what would occur if the United States returned to a draft:

1. CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT AUTHORIZE A DRAFT (see draft on this site)
A crisis occurs which requires more troops than the volunteer military can supply. Congress passes and the President signs legislation that starts a draft.

2. THE LOTTERY
The lottery would establish the priority of call based on the birth dates of registrants. The first men drafted would be those turning age 20 during the calendar year of the lottery. For example, if a draft were held in 1998, those men born in 1978 would be considered first. If a young man turns 21 in the year of the draft, he would be in the second priority, in turning 22 he would be in the third priority, and so forth until the year in which he turns 26 at which time he is over the age of liability. Younger men would not be called in that year until men in the 20?25 age group are called

3. ALL PARTS OF SELECTIVE SERVICE ARE ACTIVATED
The Agency activates and orders its State Directors and Reserve Forces Officers to report for duty. See also Agency Structure.

4. PHYSICAL, MENTAL, AND MORAL EVALUATION OF REGISTRANTS
Registrants with low lottery numbers are ordered to report for a physical, mental, and moral evaluation at a Military Entrance Processing Station to determine whether they are fit for military service. Once he is notified of the results of the evaluation, a registrant will be given 10 days to file a claim for exemption, postponement, or deferment. See also Classifications.

5. LOCAL AND APPEAL BOARDS ACTIVATED AND INDUCTION NOTICES SENT
Local and Appeal Boards will process registrant claims. Those who pass the military evaluation will receive induction orders. An inductee will have 10 days to report to a local Military Entrance Processing Station for induction.

The registrant appeal process begins when a registrant is dissatisfied with his Local Board’s decision about his reclassification request and initiates an appeal. The first line of appeal is to the District Appeal Board. In the case of non-unanimous decisions of the District Appeal Board, the registrant may appeal to the President through the National Appeal Board.

6. FIRST DRAFTEES ARE INDUCTED
According to current plans, Selective Service must deliver the first inductees to the military within 193 days from the onset of a crisis.

September 16, 2003

David Wiggins is a West Point (United States Military Academy) distinguished graduate and an honors graduate of New York Medical College. He left the Army as a Conscientious Objector, resigning his commission as an Army Captain on the Iraqi front lines during Operation Desert Storm. He is currently an Emergency Physician.

Copyright © 2003 LewRockwell.com





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LINKS REFERRED TO IN THIS ARTICLE
Click on active link or cut and paste.

Military Selective Service Act
http://www.sss.gov/PDFs/MSSA-2003.pdf

Health Care Personnel Delivery System
http://www.sss.gov/FSmedical.htm

Health Care Professionals and the Draft
http://www.nisbco.org/HCPDSWWW.htm#_Hlk51211599

other "special skills" drafts
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33754

Selective Service System
http://www.sss.gov/

It’s Not Your Father’s Draft
http://www.afsc.org/youthmil/200202/notdraft.htm

The Center on Conscience & War
http://www.nisbco.org/

Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors
http://www.objector.org/

Chance and Circumstance
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0394412753/lewrockwell/

State Legislation
http://www.sss.gov/fsstateleg.htm

Fund for Education and Training (FEAT)
http://www.nisbco.org/FEAT.htm

Information for Registrants
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm

accessible by the web
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm

Student Postponements
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#StudentPostponements

Emergency Postponements
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#EmergencyPostponements

Religious Holiday Postponements
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#ReligiousHolidayPostponements

Other Postponements
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#OtherPostponements

State or National Examination Scheduled
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#StateorNationalExaminationScheduled

Military Academy Acceptance
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#MilitaryAcademyAcceptance

Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) Applicant
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#ReserveOfficerTrainingCorps

(ROTC)ApplicantA
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#AcceptanceforReserveOfficerTrainingCorps

(ROTC)Program Acceptance for Reserve Officer Training Corps(ROTC) Program
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#AcceptanceforReserveOfficerTrainingCorps

(ROTC)Program Members of the Armed Forces of the United States, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration or the Public Health Service (Class 1-C)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%201-C)

Deferment of Certain Members of a Reserve Component or Students Taking Military Training (Class 1-D-D)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%201-D-D)

Exemption of Certain Members of a Reserve Component or Student Taking Military Training (Class 1-D-E)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%201-D-E)

Conscientious Objectors Available for Noncombatant Military Service Only (Class 1-A-O)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%201-A-O)

Conscientious Objectors to All Military Service (Class 1-O)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%201-O)

Conscientious Objectors to All Military Service (Separated from Military Service) (Class1-O-S)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%201-O-S)

Registrant Deferred Because of Study Preparing for the Ministry (Class 2-D)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%202-D)

Registrant Deferred Because of Hardship to Dependents (Class 3-A)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%203-A)

Registrant Deferred Because of Hardship to Dependents
(Separated from Military Service)(Class 3-A-S)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%203-A-S)

Registrant Who Has Completed Military Service (Class 4-A)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%204-A)

Registrant Who Has Performed Military Service for a Foreign Nation (Class 4-A-A)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%204-A-A)

Official Deferred by Law (Class 4-B)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%204-B)

Alien or Dual National (Class 4-C)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%204-C)

Treaty Alien (Class 4-T)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%204-T)

Minister of Religion (Class 4-D)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%204-D)

Registrant Exempted from Service Because of the Death of His Parent or Sibling While Serving in the Armed Forces or Whose Parent or Sibling is in a Captured or Missing in Action Status (Class 4-G)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%204-G)

Registrant Not Acceptable for Military Service (Class 4-F)
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class%204-F)

Advice For Conscientious Objectors in the Armed Forces
http://www.objector.org/advice/contents.html


the CCCO website
http://www.objector.org/

comprehensive statement of beliefs
http://www.nisbco.org/co_worksheet.htm

letters of support
http://www.nisbco.org/Letters_of_Support.htm


CCW website
http://www.nisbco.org/

the Conscientious Objector Affirmation
http://www.nisbco.org/CO_Affirmation.htm

to learn the procedure
http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm#(Class 1-0)

worksheet
http://www.nisbco.org/co_worksheet.htm

find books online (key word search: conscientious objection)
emergency financial assistance purchase books online
alternative direction

Center on Conscience & War (NISBCO)
http://nisbco.org/
nisbco@nisbco.org
mailto:nisbco@nisbco.org

Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors (CCCO)
http://www.objector.org
info@objector.org
mailto:info@objector.org

CCCO West
http://www.objector.org
info@objector.org
mailto:info@objector.org

The Selective Service System
http://www.sss.gov/

The Center on Conscience & War (CCW)
http://www.nisbco.org/

The Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors (CCCO)
http://www.objector.org/

The American Friends Service Committee (AFSC)
http://www.afsc.org/

Medical Workers Face Military Draft
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33754

It’s Not Your Father’s Draft
http://www.afsc.org/youthmil/200202/notdraft.htm

Agency Structure
http://www.sss.gov/struct.htm

Classifications
http://www.sss.gov/classif.htm

send author mail
mailto:dwiggmd@yahoo.com

Find this article at:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/wiggins5.html

this entire article posted to the following groups or services: September 9, 2003

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MISSDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. If there is a draft there should be no exceptions. How ridiculous.
What if everyon felt this way? Just who would fight the necessary wars and don't tell me there are none. Think WWII.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. What necessary wars do you foresee?
I don't see a Hitler looming on the horizon. Do you?
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. I got CO status in the Seventies
Like I said, Ask me anything!

You can get CO status too, especially in a big city that's liberal. But it's chancy.

MODS: FOLLOWING OK TO POST IN FULL (PSA from Col. Wiggins)

http://www.duckdaotsu.org/resist.html

how to stay out of the military
primer on draft resistance
by David Wiggins

Deciding What To Do

Deciding what to do when faced with Registration or the Draft can be a difficult and life-altering decision. If you choose to resist, it is helpful to keep two things in mind:

First, if you stand by your convictions, you cannot lose, and the government cannot win. The government may handcuff you or lock you up, but they cannot make you fight. If you give up any freedom, it is completely on your terms. In contrast, if you allow yourself to be coerced into military duties you risk death, disease, and disability, all for a cause you do not believe in.

Second, if you choose to resist, you will be treated as an adversary by the government. The government is no longer your friend ? if it ever was. You can expect the Selective Service to use every legal method and argument at their disposal to get you to abandon your convictions and to follow orders.

Keep records carefully, and make your own file of every transaction with the Selective Service, including phone calls. Do not rely on oral promises from Selective Service officials. Put things in writing, and attach receipts and even envelopes to the correspondence in your file. A second set of those records should be in the custody of someone you can rely on to forward copies as needed. When you make a record of a transaction with Selective Service, you should send a copy to Selective Service for inclusion in your file with the Area Office. When local boards become operational, you can see and copy information in your file. You can authorize others to do so on your behalf. Send your letters and claims to Selective Service by Certified Mail, Return Receipt Requested. Observe all deadlines scrupulously. Be sure to include your Selective Service number. Sign and date all papers submitted.

Get help. Check out how the counselor you are consulting was trained. Most attorneys know nothing about Selective Service law; ask their qualifications. Draft counselors will tend to know about qualified attorneys. There are two qualified national counseling organizations: The Center on Conscience & War (CCW), and the Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors (CCCO).

Choosing To Not Register

On a percentage basis, not registering is the most likely way to prevent you from being drafted. The book Chance and Circumstance states that between 250,000 and 2 million males did not register for the draft during the Vietnam War. According to reports from the Selective Service System, forty percent of the men who are required to register for the draft don't register in the sixty-day time period required by law. At least one or two percent still haven't registered by the time they are twenty. At age 26 they are no longer allowed to register. Thus, the number of permanent non-registrants increases daily. There is a known minimum of at least 300,000 people, perhaps a million, who are becoming permanent non-registrants.

If you refuse to register with Selective Service, you'll receive threatening letters, at first politely reminding you to register, then threatening prosecution, finally informing you that your name has been turned over to the Department of Justice for possible prosecution. These sound scary, but they're mostly bluff. No one has been formally charged since 1986.

In the early 1980s, 21 men were indicted for refusal to register: 19 of those 21 were public resisters. Wherever there were trials, the rates of registration actually went down. This resistance halted prosecutions

Penalties for Failure to Register

The penalty for failing to register can be up to five years in jail and/or a fine of up to $250,000. In peacetime, with registration only, the regular maximum penalties are four months and/or $2500. If you don't register, you become ineligible for federal student aid, federal job training or civil service employment. Below, is a summary of the penalties you will face:

STUDENT FINANCIAL AID
Men, born after December 31, 1959, who aren't registered with Selective Service won't qualify for Federal student loans or grant programs. This includes Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans.

CITIZENSHIP
The U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) makes registration with Selective Service a condition for U.S. citizenship if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.

FEDERAL JOB TRAINING
The Workforce Investment Act (formerly called the Job Training Partnership Act ? JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service. This applies only to men born after December 31, 1959.

FEDERAL JOBS
A man must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service. This applies only to men born after December 31, 1959.

Some states have added additional penalties for those who fail to register. See State Legislation.

A tactic used by many states is to require driver license applicant’s to register. These states require a consent statement on all applications or renewals for driver’s permits, licenses, and identification cards. The statement tells the applicant that by submitting the application he is consenting to his registration with the Selective Service if so required by Federal law. Transmission of applicant data to the Selective Service is accomplished electronically through an existing arrangement each state has with the data sharing system of the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators.

As of August 28, 2003, 32 states, 2 territories, and the District of Columbia have enacted driver's license laws supporting SSS registration. They are: (1) Enacted and Implemented ? Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, West Virginia, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, the Virgin Islands, and the District of Columbia; (2) Enacted But Not Yet Implemented - Arizona, Kentucky, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Wisconsin

Aid for Those Who Do Not Register

The good news is that there are alternative funds for financial aid for those who cannot register for war because they believe registration is wrong. A few colleges will provide scholarships to make up for the government money denied. Mennonites, the Church of the Brethren, Quakers, Presbyterians and Lutherans have such limited assistance funds to support non-registrants in their own groups. There is a general fund, the Fund for Education and Training (FEAT), which supports those who do not qualify for the other programs. FEAT also would aid those who are denied job-training programs for refusing to register for the draft.

Appealing the Penalties for Failure to Register

A non-registrant may not be denied any benefit if he can "show by a preponderance of evidence" that his failure to register was not knowing and willful. You will have to describe, in detail, the circumstances you believe prevented you from registering and provide copies of documents showing any periods when you were hospitalized, institutionalized, or incarcerated occurring between your 18th and 26th birthdays. If you are a non-citizen, you may be required to provide documents that show when you entered the United States

The benefit agency official handling your case, not the Selective Service, will determine whether you have shown that your failure to register was not a knowing and willful failure to register. The final decision regarding your eligibility for the benefit that you seek will be made by that same agency, (for example, for student financial aid, this would be the Department of Education.) With some agencies, an appeals process is available.

Registering Late, Change of Address

Legally, at any moment until your twenty-sixth birthday, Selective Service must accept your draft registration card. Some young men delay registration until the year in which they turn 21, or even until just before turning 26. This method takes advantage of the way the draft lottery works.

A lottery based on birthdays determines the order in which registered men are called up by Selective Service. The first to be called, in a sequence determined by the lottery, will be men whose 20th birthday falls during that year, followed, if needed, by those aged 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25. In other words, under present law, which might change with a new draft, Selective Service would first select randomly among those who turned 20 in the calendar year of the call-up. In practice, while it's possible that a draft could move beyond the age-20 selection group, the odds are against it.

It is important to remember that, once registered, even if it is the day before your 26th birthday, you are once again eligible for federal and state assistance.

Change of Address

Registrants are required to notify Selective Service within ten days of any changes to any of the information provided on the registration card, such as a change of address. According to the Center on Conscience and War, very few registrants are doing so. A registrant must report changes until January 1 of the year he turns 26. To notify Selective Service, mark your change(s) on the Change Information Form attached to the Registration acknowledgment Card and mail it to Selective Service, or complete a Change of Information Form, SSS Form 2, which you can obtain at any U.S. Post Office or U.S. Embassy or Consulate office. You may also notify Selective Service of any change by letter, but be sure to include your full name, Social Security Account Number, Selective Service Number, and date of birth, as well as your new mailing address

If the registrant forgets to notify the Selective Service of any address changes, or if the Selective Service loses that notification, the Selective Service may have difficulty finding and notifying the registrant of induction in case of a draft.

If you don't register before you turn 26, you will not be allowed to register, even if you change your mind. You'd then be permanently barred from such benefits, unless Congress or the courts act to change the law. A person who fails to register by age 26 may use the same appeals process as described above, under the section "Choosing To Not Register."

Registering But Resisting Induction

If you decide to register:


• Find a post office for your registration that has an accessible photocopier.
• Print in legible black ink across the middle of the registration form: I AM A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR TO WAR IN ANY FORM. This is not a classification, but it may help you later to document your position as a CO. Selective Service makes no record of this declaration in its computer files, but they do make a microfilm record of the registration card. You should make a copy of your card for your file.
• Make a photocopy of your registration form for your own records. Date it, fold and seal it, and mail it to yourself. The postmark confirms the date.
• Put a complete statement of your conscientious objector beliefs on file with your religious body, the CCW, the CCCO, or any other counseling agency.

After registration, Selective Service will send a "registration acknowledgement" letter, which repeats the information the registrant gave on the form and supplies a Selective Service Number. If any of the information is incorrect, the registrant may return the accompanying Form 3B to correct any mistakes. The registrant can retain this letter, Form 3A, as proof of his registration.

Before anyone can be drafted, Congress and the President would have to enact legislation authorizing new draft calls. If this happens, one can apply for various postponements and reclassifications to delay induction, or to avoid it entirely.

Filing for postponement or reclassification

Selective Service regulations are filled with loopholes, postponements, and reclassifications for those who will not or cannot be drafted. A registrant can file a claim only after receipt of an order to report for induction and before the day he is scheduled to report (this means within 10 days). If you were called up, you would receive an induction notice requiring you to report on a certain date not less than 10 days from the date of the notice, to a Military Entrance Processing Station (MEPS) unless you filed a claim for exemption or deferment. Filing a claim involves no more than checking a box on a form, and submitting it to the Selective Service.

After the Selective Service receives the claim, they will send you more forms to complete. You must apply for any and all exemptions for which you think you may qualify, and/or for classification as a conscientious objector. A registrant automatically gets his induction delayed if he files a claim for reclassification. He is also entitled to file for a postponement if he is a student or if he has an emergency beyond his control, such as a serious illness or death in his immediate family. The induction date will be postponed until the draft board evaluates the validity of the claim. The Selective Service publishes a booklet titled "Information for Registrants" which lists each category of claim for postponement of induction into the armed forces and each type of reclassification to become exempt from the draft. Under each heading (accessible by the web) is a detailed description of the qualifications and requirements for each category. The major headings are listed below.

Postponements


1. Student Postponements
2. Emergency Postponements
3. Religious Holiday Postponements
4. Other Postponements
-State or National Examination Scheduled
-Military Academy Acceptance
-Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) Applicant
-Acceptance for Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) Program


Conscientious Objectors

Conscientious Objection is the category of reclassification of most interest to the majority of draft resisters. In fact, every draft resister is a conscientious objector in his own way. According to the Selective Service, a conscientious objector is one who is opposed to serving in the armed forces and/or bearing arms on the grounds of moral or religious principles. Beliefs which qualify a registrant for CO status may be religious in nature, but don't have to be. Beliefs may be moral or ethical, but according to the Selective Service, a man's reasons for not wanting to participate in a war must not be based on politics, expediency, or self-interest. In general, the man's lifestyle prior to making his claim must reflect his current claims.

Be aware that, while similar, regulations regarding Conscientious Objection differ for members of the military forces. For more information on claiming Conscientious Objector status while a member of the Armed Forces, see "Advice For Conscientious Objectors in the Armed Forces" by Robert Seeley on the CCCO website.

Conscientious objectors should begin to document their claims well in advance of being drafted since otherwise, their time will be very limited. COs should have prepared in advance a file which documents their beliefs. At the minimum, this file should include the photocopy of the registration card, a comprehensive statement of beliefs, and letters of support for this statement. The CCW website has articles with detailed instructions on how to prepare your statement of beliefs and letters of support. There, you may also sign on to the Conscientious Objector Affirmation. Such evidence can be presented to the local board that will hear the claim for a CO classification. Compiling this file should be done with supervision from a qualified draft counselor or agency such as CCW or CCCO.

If you have one, get on record with your religious organization, especially if there is an official registrar. File a provisional version of your claim with them and/or with the CCW or CCCO. Request an analysis of your claim with your counselor. Arrange for letters of support (signed and dated) and documentation of your belief and a life-style consistent with your claim. Arrange for witnesses and an advisor in advance of your hearing.

If you don’t have legal advice, get it. Keep your own file about your beliefs about war and the draft. Keep records of all transactions with the Selective Service System. Many local peace centers have information. The Center on Conscience & Warfare (CCW) provides a counseling service by mail and phone, and publishes aids for thinking out what you believe and what to do. So does the CCCO, the Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors.

Be sure to learn the procedure for obtaining conscientious objection status.

In general, once a man gets a notice that he has been found qualified for military service (i.e., receives an induction letter), he has the opportunity to make a claim for classification as a conscientious objector (CO). If a registrant believes he can qualify for Class 1-O, he should complete the Claim Documentation Form, Conscientious Objector (SSS Form 22), provided by his Area Office and return the form to the Area Office with documents and written statements to support his claim. Form 22 asks the applicant to answer three questions.


1. Describe your beliefs that are the reasons for your claiming conscientious objection to combatant military training and service or to all military training and service.
2. Describe how and when you acquired these beliefs
3. Explain what most clearly shows that your beliefs are deeply held. You may wish to include a description of how your beliefs affect the way you live.

You should begin preparing answers to these questions as soon as you decide to claim Conscientious Objector status. The Center on Conscience and War provides an excellent worksheet to help you.

A registrant making a claim for Conscientious Objection is required to appear before his local board to explain his beliefs. Claimants for hardship or ministerial classification may also request a personal appearance. At a personal appearance you will have at least twenty minutes, and may present up to three witnesses. You may be accompanied by an advisor, and may request that the meeting be open. You cannot use a recorder at the meeting; but you can submit your own summary within five days after the hearing.

If a claim of conscientious objector status is granted, Selective Service regulations state that the registrant must perform alternative service. Of course, one may also choose to resist or refuse alternative service for reasons of conscience. Likely Alternative Service jobs are in the fields of conservation, caring for the very young or very old, education, or health care. Length of service in the program will equal the amount of time a man would have been assigned to the military.

Appealing a Claim That Is Denied

The local board will decide whether to grant or deny a CO classification based on the evidence a registrant has presented. If your claim is rejected, you will receive a new induction date. The CCCO, CCW, and others can help you find lawyers and/or counselors to help you through the lengthy appeals process. The board must give reasons for rejection of your claim. You may appeal a Local Board's decision to a Selective Service District Appeal Board. If the Appeal Board also denies your claim, but the vote is not unanimous, you may further appeal the decision to the National Appeal Board

Refusing Induction

You do, in good conscience, object to Registration and the Draft. This does not change simply because the Selective Service denies your claim. Since there is currently no draft, there are no rules governing those who refuse induction. Historically, draft resisters have been prosecuted and penalized in some manner. You can expect the same. If you choose to refuse induction or were successful using one of the methods described above, you will join a long line of conscientious objectors proud to have defended their freedom to make their own conscientious decisions, and your freedom to do the same. For their stories, check out one of the many books currently available on conscientious objectors and conscientious objection. If you let your conscience be your guide, not your fear or doubt or uncertainty, you will always make a good decision, you will always be free, and you will never regret it.

Contact Information


• Center on Conscience & War (NISBCO)
1830 Connecticut Ave. NW, Washington, DC 20009
202-483-2220
800-379-2679
Fax: 202-483-1246
nisbco@nisbco.org
• Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors (CCCO)
1515 Cherry St., Philadelphia, PA 19102
215-563-8787
Fax 215-567-2096
info@objector.org
• CCCO West
630 20th Street Oakland, CA 94612
510-465-1617
Fax 510-465-2459
info@objector.org



this entire article posted to the following groups or services: September 9, 2003

duckdaotsu list
Coalition for Free Thought in Media
Truth Amnesty Reconciliation
United For Peace
Anti-War-News
Mainline News
United for Peace and Justice News
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. trying to get rid of the dupe above, but can't !
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donhakman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 02:33 PM
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36. 0978
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. DemsWillWin
Per DU copyright rules
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to the source.

Thank you.

DU Moderator
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