Is there any hope for redemption for these girls?

[CatWoman]

Shocked, grieving Fayette county residents and sheriff’s deputies await the return of two teen-age girls charged with slaying a local elderly couple.

Sandra “Sandy” Ketchum, 16, and 15-year-old Holly Harvey, the granddaughter of the victims, will be tried as adults, according to District Attorney Bill McBroom, for allegedly stabbing to death 77 year olds Carl and Sarah Collier. Ketchum and Harvey remain on the Georgia coast, where authorities apprehended them Tuesday afternoon.

As Kevin Collier prepares to bury his adoptive grandparents, he says he hopes his adoptive niece and her friend are prosecuted to fullest extent of the law for their alleged crimes.

“They definitely need to be tried as adults and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. That’s justice,” Kevin said.

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=50058

[LuminousX]

1. There is always hope for redemption

but until we have a penal system that focuses on reform instead of punishment, there will be no redemption.

I don't know the best answer as I can imagine all sorts of nightmare scenarios regarding efforts to reform that are more like efforts to create cookie cutter perfect citizens. You can't tell me that someone who is 15 to 20 can't be reintegrated into society. Putting them in a prison will guarantee they can't.

[BOHICA06]

7. If reintegration works

3 out of 5 times - do you want to let the other 40% out on society until they prove you wrong?

No, these girls have forfeited their freedom (if guilty) ... life without parole. It won't happen and we'll see they smiling faces in 20 or so years.

[Massacure]

2. Killed after onfronting them about drug abuse?

Sounds to me like therapy for those kids is more in order than life in prison.

[Snoggera]

8. Now I think I've heard it all

Therapy as a punishment for double homicide?

[CatWoman]

10. I don't think the poster is advocating therapy as a punishment

it's quite obvious, IMHO, that these two need extensive therapy.

[daligirrl]

3. Not if they turn out to be true sociopaths. . . n/t

[DrWeird]

4. Sure.

Can't believe people want to try 15-year-olds as adults. It's sick.

[CatWoman]

5. they seem to be salivating about it

and pissed because they can't seek the death penalty.

[DrWeird]

12. Even the girls' family members.

You know, most teenagers convicted of murder killed their mother's abuser. I bet there's a lot going on her that we don't know.

[Snoggera]

11. Murdering two 77 year old relatives is also sick

If not tried as adults, they would have to spend less than 3 years in a detention facility for juveniles. Does that sound appropriate?

[DrWeird]

14. More appropriate then trying them as adults.

nt

[Mizmoon]

15. Amen. 15 year olds are NOT adults

They don't have the legal rights of adults, and they cannot be punished as adults. Period.

[BOHICA06]

16. What pertinent legal rights do

they lack?

They can't vote, enter into contract, etc., but nothing that would effect them facing prosecution for a capital crime.

[sangh0]

18. Almost all of them

The rights of minors can be severely limited by their parents and/or the state

[BOHICA06]

19. Most likely

they will be assigned a public defended or other legal representation that will work for them (and only them) - if judged competent to stand trial.

So how would their lack of freedom of (fill in the blank) as minors have any effect on whether they should answer for a capital offense in court and be subject to adult level punishment? Where do you draw the line? Folks are talking about 16 year old voting rights, they certainly have reproductive freedom, the 16 year old may have driving privileges.

My answer is 14 and below cannot be subject to trial as an adult.

[sangh0]

23. You are very confused

What rights someone has has nothing to do with the punishment for a crime. If you are found guilty of a crime, you are subject to the penalties that are called for in the statute that makes what you did a criminal act.

And this proven by your ridiculous conclusion:

My answer is 14 and below cannot be subject to trial as an adult.

Even though you seem to think that rights have something to do with rights, and 14 year olds have the same rights as 16 year olds, yet you think they should be handled differently.

Your argument is incoherent.

[Mizmoon]

25. Don't be polite or anything

We wouldn't want a friendly discussion to break out!

[sangh0]

26. I'm no sensible liberal

and I have no respect for conservative arguments.

[BOHICA06]

30. The prosecution

will be the state versus ...... Now the state has the responsibility to act in the public's interest and gain justice for the victims. Tough job.

So your answer, at its maximum if convicted, is the incarceration would be a maximum of 5 to 6 years. Is that enough to cover both of the state's concerns and mission? Should they be treated like serial sex offenders and only released when they can establish that they are no longer a threat to society?

Please give us your lower limit on adult prosecution: 17,16,15,14 ... What is so magic at 18?

[sangh0]

32. A straw man won't make you more credible

So your answer, at its maximum if convicted, is the incarceration would be a maximum of 5 to 6 years.

If you had any honorable intentions, you will explain where I supposedly gave this answer.

[BOHICA06]

33. Please follow along ....

if they are 15 & 16 and are put into the juvenile system - in most cases they can be held until age 21. That makes a maximum punishment of 5 & 6 years.

[sangh0]

35. So you won't tell us where I gave the answer

you claimed I gave?

I am not surprised.

(Hint: If you want me to answer YOUR question, first answer mine: Where did I give the answer you claimed I gave?)

[BOHICA06]

36. No...I'll leave the field

we'll let Georgia handle the details.

[sangh0]

39. That would be the honorable thing to do

.

[Mizmoon]

22. They are not legally considered mature enough

to drink or vote. That means that the law considers them too inexperienced and immature to make these types of decisions correctly. They must wait until they are adults with good judgement.

Now we want to hold them responsible for a heinous crime - to the standard of adults - even though we just admitted that legally they aren't even mature enough to have a Budwiser or pick a candidate.

So are they mature or not? Do they have the judgement of adults or not? Do they have the rights and responsibilities of adults or not? Or are they children who can easily be misled, make bad choices, and make inappropriate decisions?

[sangh0]

24. Bingo!!!

In order to be found guilty of a crime, there needs to be criminal intent. Children are not considered capable of forming criminal intent because they do not truly understand the consequences of their actions.

[depakid]

37. As juveniles, they lack almost the entire panoply

of protections afforded adult criminal defendants.

Now, if they're tried as adults, they'll have their rights once they're in court- but until that determination is made, they remain under the auspices of juvenile criminal procedure rules. So, if they've been questioned after requesting counsel- or if evidence has been gathered in violation of the 4th Amendment, they can't move to suppress. That evidence comes in.

It's the worst of both worlds.

[BOHICA06]

38. Thank You

I see where they are at a disadvantage.

[dorktv]

6. The thing I do not like is how cold this guy Kevin is.

"thinks it would be a fitting punishment" with regards to the death penalty. One, innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and two, one of the two is a family member! Why have you not been helping out when she was young and maybe helped prevent this crime?

[GOPFighter]

9. Something is very, very wrong, here.

I would like to know a lot more about the adopted daughter and the home life she grew up in. It's rare for a teen to go this wrong when raised in a loving, nurturing home.

In a perfect world, we would try to rehabilitate these girls, but I suspect many of the good "Christians" in our country would rather see them fry.

[CatWoman]

13. The young lady in question

her mother is in jail, and is an addict.

She was adopted by the murdered grandparents.

[Downtown Hound]

17. They say the best indicator

for whether you will end up in prison is if you have a parent in prison. These two murdered folks are an indirect casualty of the drug war. I'm not saying they aren't to blame for their actions, but there are always countless invisible threads that form a web leading to tragedies like this.

I don't know if I'm qualified to say whether there could be redemption for them. I'd like to think so, but it's not going to be easy.

[noonwitch]

20. Life in prison

I'm not particularly touched by their emotional problems. This is not an accidental killing, in which I might encourage leniency, this was cold-blooded. I don't support the death penalty, and am not big on writing off 15 year olds, but cold blooded killers have to be taken off the streets for the longest time possible under law.

I used to feel differently about teens when I was a delinquency worker. Then I saw that when it came to the murderers and rapists, there wasn't much hope for rehabilitation. Yes, they had horrible lives for the most part and that certainly played a part in who they became, but most were beyond help. At that point, all you can do is lock them up and protect everybody else.

To be fair, most of the kids I worked with went on to lead successful lives as adults, but most weren't violent offenders. Most of the kids were truants, minors in possession, petty shoplifters, cat burglars & auto thiefs (the more talented ones), and petty drug offenders. All of the violent offenders ended up in the adult system eventually. The violent kids have to be caught very young, like before age 12, for any kind of rehabilitation to work.

[DrWeird]

27. Really.

I think it's cold blooded to try a kid as an adult and send them to a life in prison. In fact, I'd say that's about as cold blooded as cold blooded could get.

[Snoggera]

28. What would be an appropriate punishment

for stabbing to death two people? Seriously. A certain number of years? Until they reach a certain age?

Even adults aren't themselves when using illicit drugs, but they made that decision also. They made a decision to use drugs and they murdered two elderly people.

[DrWeird]

29. Depends on the circumstances.

I'll say again, most kids convicted of murder killed their mothers abuser. In cases like that I say give them parole and anger management training, it's essential Battered Wife Syndrome by proxy.

Given, from the article, that these girls own family members want to see them fry, it's quite possible that they were in an abusive situation.

What we do know is that they were being confronted for drug use. One of the kids has a parent in prison for drug use, and when confronted, being immature and unable to properly deal with her emotions, lashed out in defense of her own well being, hurting one or both of the grandparents, panicked, and finished both of them off. Of course it's just speculation, but no worse than saying they should be sentenced to life in prison.

"They made a decision to use drugs and they murdered two elderly people."

What's wrong with taking drugs? I say good for them. You seem to think that's a character flaw. You seem to think that caused them to kill people. Or justifies locking them in prison for the rest of their lives.

[Snoggera]

31. I don't think children should be taking drugs

but have no idea if it is a character flaw. Most likely, in this circumstance, it was a result of simply continuing a family tradition. I don't think they should be locked in prison for the rest of their lives, but to receive punishment as juveniles seems extremely lenient for murdering two human beings. Hopefully there will be some plea bargaining that resolves this.

[DrWeird]

34. Sorry, confused you with noonwitch.

"to receive punishment as juveniles seems extremely lenient for murdering two human beings."

But the ARE juveniles. They're not fully in control of their emotions. They can't make good judgements. That's why they can't consent to sex with an adult. In the few years that they'd be in juvenile incarcation, they'll undoubtedy mature into adults, and with proper care will realize how and why they were wrong and can reenter society without any danger to it. Frankly, I'd rather have that, then having them spend forty years fending for themselves in an adult prison, growing bitter at society, getting institutionalized, and then finally being released with no way of starting over.

[Pithlet]

40. Juveniles are not adults

They don't think like adults. They don't act like adults. There is a reason why 16 year olds are generally not allowed to live on their own in an apartment with a job. What do you think those reasons are? The same reasons why they shouldn't be treated like adults in the justice system. Their brains aren't even fully developed to the extent that an adult's is.

The push to treat children like adults in the justice system only serves to sate revenge, just like the death penalty. It, like the death penalty, does not serve justice.

[bo44]

21. You have to spend time with a kid to really know

We had a kid at the hall that got a life w/o parole sentence and I could guarantee you that if that kid was released into a positive environment with lots of support he would never kill again. I feel this way because he let go of the gang front while waiting for trial and did not revert once he was convicted. He really was remorseful and a changed kid. Trouble is he and his friends killed two innocent kids (mistaken ID) for him to learn his lesson.