Debunking please: LTTE

[EstimatedProphet]

there's a local LTTE that is citing "facts" which I know are spin. Anyone have the real numbers?

-Kerry&Edwards voted against the $87 billion appropriations bill to thwart terrorism, only 2 other senators did

-Kerry has missed 38 out of 48 Senate Intelligence meetings

-Edwards has missed 4 out of 8 SI meetings

-Kerry supported cutting $7.5 billion from intelligence after 9/11

This is to make a fast response to a LTTE, so I turn to you all.

[trumad]

1. You forgot

He's also the number one Liberal in the Senate.

[EstimatedProphet]

2. No, the guy I am responding to forgot that one

I'm sure he thinks that, but I also know it isn't true.

[mark414]

3. $87 billion

there were actually 2 bills for the $87 billion appropriation, which included a provision to make half of the $18 billion to iraq for reconstruction (so $9 billion) in the form of a loan. kerry didn't want to mortgage our children's future which is why he was insistent on that provision. however, bush threatened to veto that measure, so it was changed so that none of it had to be paid back, but it was obvious it was going to pass (it got 70 odd votes or so), so Kerry and Edwards voted against it in protest.

all those numbers you hear about how each child in america is going to have a however many thousand dollar debt, that's what kerry was trying to prevent in the first bill.

i think that's most of it, someone correct me if i'm wrong.

but the key point is that THERE WERE TWO DIFFERENT BILLS.

[Brotherjohn]

4. For starters, it wasn't a bill to "thwart terrorism". Quoting the bill...

... it was to make "emergency supplemental appropriations for Iraq and Afghanistan security and reconstruction for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2004, and for other purposes."
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00400

It was for Iraq reconstruction (60B, I think) and to fund the troops there (27B, I think).

As the roll call shows, Kerry voted with 11 other Senators against it.

Kerry voted against this bill because it was paying for this by borrowing the money. He voted FOR the earlier (SEPARATE, entirely DIFFERENT) bill which authorized the same funding, to be paid for by rolling back some of the tex cuts to the wealthy.

In short, Kerry no more flip-flopped than every Republican who voted against the earlier bill and for the later one. Kerry's vote was also more conservative, unless you now believe that conservatives values include borrowing and running up huge debts.

[Brotherjohn]

8. On EDIT, I have some numbers reversed (and they're just estimates)...

... it was about 60-65B for the troops, and about 18B for reconstruction, with some debate being about whether that 18B should be provided as loans or grants. Bush wanted it all to be grants, and threatened to veto it if it were not.

But the hypocrisy (and equal "flip-flopping", such as it is) with Bush involves him being completely AGAINST the other bill pushed by Dems (and voted for by Kerry, but against by most Repubs). My memory recalls that this bill was to pay for the entire 87B by scaling back some of Bush's tax cuts to the upper income brackets.

[rfranklin]

5. And Bush missed a briefing titled "Osama to strike U.S...."

and a two commissions that detailed numerous precautionary actions that would have prevented the hijackers from succeeding on 9/11.

Of course, that was after spending twenty years in a drunken haze, failing at numerous businesses and being AWOL during 1973 (which many believe was due to cocaine use and drug arrests.)

So, who are these Republicans kidding?

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. 87 billion appropriations bill to thwart terrorism

Not exactly, since this bill had to do with funding the ongoing war with Iraq, which to my knowledge had not been linked in any substantial way to any terrorism up until that time. So one could say that no such 87 billion appropriation for that purpose was ever voted on.

The other ones are probably meaningless since meetings are held for all kinds of reasons so one would have to look at them on a case to case basis. I would imagine that they attended as many meetings as anybody Else on those committees.

The 7.5 Billion one is no doubt bogus or twisted somehow like the first one, but I wouldn't waste my time with it.


These rw talking points are all the same and quite boring.

[EstimatedProphet]

7. Just dirtied myself with a visit to WorldNetDaily

The bit about Kerry missing all the meetings comes from Saxby Chambliss. Anyone know anything about that? I couldn't find a record of who has attended and how often.

[never cry wolf]

9. As far as the intel funding cuts

It was not after 911, in the first place. In the second place:

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=153

and:

CLAIM: Cheney accused Kerry of voting against intelligence budgets.

FACTS: Kerry Supports Increased Intelligence Funding – Including $200 Billion in the Previous 7 Years – A 50% Increase Since 1996 – John Kerry, a former member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, has supported increases in Intelligence funding, and, in the wake of 9/11, has supported the bipartisan call for an even larger increase in intelligence funding.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0426b.html

more here: http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0129f.html

[Bush was AWOL]

10. I think that 38 out of 49 vote is killer

if true. I keep hearing that he was on the wrong side of the cold war on every issue, screwed up big time with the Sandanista's...blah, blah, blah.

[never cry wolf]

11. As far as the Intel meeting attendance

Yes, it was chambliss who first brought this up. however it is worded incorrectly. What chambliss references (and this ltte leaves out) is public meetings!

I went to the intel committee website and looked at thier meetings list. I counted 96 total meeting in the 108th congress to date, of which a sum total of 3 were public meetings.

http://intelligence.senate.gov/hr108.htm#July%202004

Therefore, these statements really have no bearing upon Kerry's or Edwards' familiarity with intel issues, just how their attendance records were for approximately 3% of the meetings. It would be my assumption that most of the important work goes on in the closed sessions, of which Kerry must have attended many hundreds.

[EstimatedProphet]

12. Thanks everyone!

Good sources, and I expect i will be hitting factcheck.org a lot more often!

[exgop]

13. Don't forget that Bush threatened to veto the $87 billion

see http://blog.meyer04.us/archives/000043.html