Dishonorably Discharged George W. Bush

[benburch]

This needs to be our talking point for the next week or so, folks.

"George W. Bush dishonorably discharged for desertion in time of war."

Let them disprove it, IF THEY CAN.

[pocket]

1. uh, that should be very easy for them to disprove

one of the things that was released was his discharge papers, whatever the officer version of a DD-214 is.

[amber dog democrat]

3. I agree - a Dishnerable is pretty hard to deny.

It would haunt you forever.

[benburch]

4. Not there.

No DD-214. It is "lost." Just a reference in another document to a 258AF.

(Go look it up! It's a Dishonerable Discharge.)

[wicket]

5. What is the DD-214?

[benburch]

6. Honorable Discharge paper

A very important document, and one all veterens guard carefully.

[pocket]

9. a DD-214 is

an enlisted person's discharge paper. It will tell you what kind of discharge they got. I don't know what the form for officers is.

[benburch]

10. Point is - It's not there.

There was no honorable discharge document of any sort in the records they released. A funny omission if they have one to show us, no?

[RivetJoint]

20. He would not have one upon relese from the Guard

DD-214s are for active duty personnel.

[Sinistrous]

12. FYI

Officers also got the DD214.

[RivetJoint]

18. Officer's get DD 214's as well

But since a DD-214 is for a discharge from ACTIVE duty; Bush would not have one other than the one he should have received upon graduation from Basic Training.

[oneighty]

32. My DD 214s do not indicate type of discharge.

I have two discharges which do. They are separate and very different papers.

180

[botchan]

52. A number

The DD-214 has a number on it that denotes the type of discharge. It is the document that a federal employeer would use to verify your type of discharge.

[oneighty]

53. Hmmmm

Space has "Type of transfer or discharge" Typed in is simply "discharge." There is however another space which says "Reason and Authority" Typed in "BuPers Manual Article C-10317 Code 203." Perhaps that is it?

Also another spot says type of certificate issued; DD256N DD 217 N

Interesting isn't it? I also have two very nice discharges suitable for framing. The back of the discharge has much of the same information as the DD 214s.

Do Officers get DD 214? Why cannot Bush* just show his nice "Honorable" discharge also suitable for framing? Seems every service person gets one of them.

180

[botchan]

54. I'm not sure

I should dig mine out of my filing cabinet and look. I know I put a dot next to the important line. I don't think Dumbya can show us anything pertaining to his service other than a dental appointment. Lets face it, daddy was the director of the CIA and he erased the majority of information that made his name-sake son look bad. This was pretty much his entire life :)

[chiburb]

2. I like your thinking, but maybe it's simpler to use:

Deserter Bush.

Much shorter for the RW mind, and serves the same purpose.

[sangh0]

7. Yes...."George Bush* is a DESERTER"

Make outrageous sounding charges, and when they question you about, don't worry about your personal credibility. Just use it as an excuse to get their attention and then flood them with THE FACTS.

[benburch]

8. Happens to be true.

The truth is the best way to defame somebody.

[benburch]

11. Okay... Here is a plan of attack...

Let's create a chain letter.

You know, the sort that your "friends" mail you that is typically full of right wing slander.

Anybody want to do a first draft, and we'll kick it around here?

[Miss Authoritiva]

13. Is it possible that Bush got a "general discharge"?

I haven't finished my googling, but Bush and his supporters seem to use the phrase "honorably discharged," which is not an official term.

Bush may have received an honorable discharge or a general discharge. Under a general discharge, there are several subcategories, including general discharge under honorable conditions. This would give Bush enough "resume enhancement" room to say that he was "honorably discharged" when in fact he hadn't received an "honorable discharge."

Personally, I feel that if there was enough Bush family political clout to get Dubya off the hook for desertion, then there was enough clout to get him an undeserved honorable discharge. But you never know; there might have been some military brass who refused and the final negotiated deal was for a general discharge under honorable conditions.

[benburch]

14. As I understand it...

258AF, the referenced document, is only for a Dishonorable.

They have not produced a discharge document.

Lets make them do it.

[Frodo]

19. Holy pixel consipiracy theory Batman! This is BUNK.

You really sure it doesn't reference the DD 256? All I've seen is crudy PDF files, but the form clearly says "honorable" and then "such-and-such a form will be issued". The image is incredibly fuzzy, but it's a huge stretch to assume it refers to an "undesirable" discharge on a letter that says "honorable"?





But, the document furnished by USA Today is pretty clearly showing a "6". Check page 26.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-2_2004_Personnel_File.pdf


And if it IS a "6"???

1.4.4.2. ARPC issues the DD Form 256, Honorable Discharge from the Armed Forces of the United States of America-United States Air Force, for those individuals who are in reserve status at the time of discharge. This includes individuals who were in the ANG and transferred back to the Reserves. (the alleged situation)

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-3209/afi36-3209.pdf

[benburch]

21. Then make them produce the 256AF

I'm betting that they cannot produce said document, or they would have done so already.

Unless they can prove that he was honorably discharged, we should continue to maintain that he was given a 258AF, Dishonorable Discharge.

Yes, this is payback for the Swiftliars.

[Frodo]

22. Oh, I see. THEY lie, so WE have to! NOW I get it.

And the black box voting folks have decided to open their OWN electronic voting company. Let's not point out their stealing of votes, let's just do it BETTER!

Seriously, we "maintain" that a document says "honorable discharge" and then says a DIShonorable discharge will be issued? THAT's what we're "maintaining".

Ok, as long as you realize that we are also accusing the person who wrote that letter of being an idiot.

[benburch]

23. So, why should they object, then, to producing the 256AF?

Unless it never existed?

The goal of this exercise is to make them admit that they cannot prove at all that GWB was issued an honorable discharge.

And they cannot.

And if we make him look bad in the process, fine by me.

[ClassWarrior]

24. Checkmate.

Ben, you rock.

[Frodo]

30. Yeah right.

I was discharged in '89 and I can't find ANYTHING paperwork-wise (All I've got is a couple "class of '91" boxers, a P-coat and a windbreaker).

And I wasn't even a drunk in the intervening years.

What they DO have, however, is a number of official records showing an honorable discharge.

We can speculate the documents were affected by the family's influence, but not that they show the opposite of what they show.

[benburch]

35. You are free to do as you wish...

I intend to do everything possible to bring this sucker DOWN.

[Miss Authoritiva]

25. Check out page 10 of the USAToday PDF files. Something strange.

At the top of the form, where it says "Discharge"....The typewritten "HONORABLE" is wrong. The "E" is not an "E." In fact, it looks more like a typewriter number "3," and it appears to be from a different typewriter than was used to fill in the rest of the form.

Go ahead and check it. Use the PDF toolbar to enlarge this line.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-2_2004_Personn...

[ClassWarrior]

27. Not there...

[Miss Authoritiva]

29. Got him in, got him off, got him out.

Here's the correct link.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-2_2004_Personnel_File.pdf

Scroll to page 10 and then enlarge the top of the form to 300% or 400%. The cap E in "HONORABLE" is not an E but appears to be an arabic 3 from a typewriter with a different font. What's also interesting is that in the CAP or SHIFT mode, hitting the "3" key would give you the # sign.

Any forensic document specialists out there?

I know this is an exercise in futility. The Bush family connections:

GOT HIM IN the National Guard
GOT HIM OFF the desertion charges
GOT HIM OUT with an honorable discharge

But I am so pissed off over the smearing of Kerry's record!

[Frodo]

31. Yep. Sure looks like a three.

So you think the guy got an "Honorabl3" discharge?

Or are you saying that military forms are immune from typos?

We call it a "scanner ghost". In this case a combination of old documents (probably microfiche or carbon copy) and a scanner. I spot at least two dozen characters that look nothing like what they have to be and more than one typo.

[Miss Authoritiva]

34. Just thought it appropriate that his discharge form had dyslexia too.

Of course Bush would get an "HONORABL3" discharge. Even more likely, an "HONORA8L3 DischaЯgЭ." Makes sense to me!

Scanner ghosts. I like that. Thanks.

[SemperEadem]

50. numbers in words--isn't that how aliens from other planets spell?

I remember a friend of mine who had A3LIENS as his license plate number.. he told me that space aliens put numbers in their words... the number is silent. lol

[IkeWarnedUs]

28. Nope - that's an "8"

Look at the numbers in the upper left corner under "Reserve Order" - there is a "6" and an "8" next to each other. The bottom circles on both look alike, but the tops are different. The top of the "6" points up and to the right, like about 1:00 on a clock, not unlike the "6" in the DU font.

The number in question (in the same font, just smaller) clearly shows the line of the right side of the top circle connecting to the bottom half.

I know with some fonts the top of the "6" curves down and can be confused with an "8", but not the font on this document.

[Frodo]

33. Sorry, no

Those aren't even the same typewritter. And on the clearer copy it's fairly clearly a six.

This is just wishfull thinking folks. There just isn't enough resolution or clarity to tell which it is. Zoom in all the way and you can't even tell that the five is a five (or for that matter that the "F" is an "f" and not a "B" or an "8"). It just isn't credibly to claim that you've got four or five government forms saying "honorable" discharge and they just slip in the "oh it's really dishonorable" in a note.

[benburch]

36. Then let them show us the form.

None of what has been shown so far would be accepted legally as proof of an honorable discharge. There is a record that can prove that. Let them produce it if it ever existed.

Because I'm pretty sure that it did not.

[ThomWV]

15. They've Already Flashed Around His Honerable Discharge

So, sorry, it won't work. The asshole may not have earned it but he's got an Honorable.

[benburch]

16. Not the right document, or so I read.

What they showed was not the correct form. As I understand it, they are using another form to stand in stead of an honorable discharge, but that form proves nothing of the sort.

[wiggs]

17. that should be the strategy for all scandals

I like the approach. Instead of letting unresolved issues disappear into the ether, assume the worst on all these mysteries and let them prove otherwise. They certainly haven't earned the benefit of the doubt, so:

Cheney's global energy buddies met in secret, shaped US energy policy, gave themselves huge windfall profits at taxpayer expense, and used No Child Left Behind funds for coporporate giveaways. If it isn't true, let's see the proof.

Plame was outed by Cheney. Novak learned of Plame from Cheney's go between, Justice Scalia.

Edmonds information will link Rove with Russian mafia, 9/11. Rove thought a terrorist event would be good for poll numbers.

Rumsfeld not only told his officers to get information from Iraq detainees without regard to Geneva conventions, but also asked Wolfowitz to go over there and take some pictures.

Bush showed Prince Bandar the classified war plan so that Bandar could put dibs on the wells of his choice.

I'm sure there are more....

The scary part is, I wonder if the fictional stories are any worse than the reality.

[proud patriot]

26. Exactly ...pulling up my sleeves it's time to get Muddy

:kick:

[TacticalPeek]

37. Prove yourself, Shrub!

Or just 'fess up like a big boy.

:evilgrin:

[ClassWarrior]

38. kick for dishonor

:kick:

[benburch]

39. Malloy just hit this theme.

And he "gets it."

We don't need any more proof than the Right had for all of the people they say Hillary murdered. Let them disprove this. Show us the form, coward.

[ClassWarrior]

40. Why doesn't it surprise me that Mike's picked this up?

Nice job, Ben.

[eleny]

41. I have a form that shows an Honorable discharge

It was on a web site with all sorts of copies of documents relating to *. It was talion.com/georgebush.html. But it no longer exists.

The form number isn't legible at the bottom. But "Honorable" is clear at the top of the form. The place where he was supposed to sign has typed in "NOT AVAILABLE FOR SIGNATURE".

Does anyone know if that site was debunked at some point? There are many forms there and I saved all the pages. Maybe they were never real since the real goods is supposed to be lost. :shrug:

Edit: Here's a Wash post article that references some of the photocopies I saved http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A4291-2000Nov2¬Found=true or here using a Tiny Url http://tinyurl.com/k1sm

[benburch]

42. That form is not the actual discharge.

Make them show it.

[bobbieinok]

49. check out www.awolbush.com; raw story; salon's table talk

-->white house-->AWOL

Marty Heldt is the one who really started on the story in the spring of 2000. He was on Malloy's show at WLS a few times.

Paul Lukasiask (sp?) jumped in recently; he's a bull-dog researcher. He had a number of detailed stories about the FL2000 vote theft and miscounts and the media's treatment of it all.

The Fri before the 2000 election there was a press conferences about this with Inouye and Bob Kerrey. The site where all the documentation was presented for the press was hacked and off-line FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER.

That weekend FOX (?) broke the story of W's DUI arrest in NE in the 70s....the reporter breaking the story had had it for some time......so all the attn was on DUI instead of AWOL.

[SemperEadem]

51. Rufus G Marten could set the whole thing straight

his signature is at the bottom of the form. Let's ask him what's up.

[Swamp Rat]

43. OK, that's a good angle.

Gotta keep the offense in play too. And one can always say, "turnabout is fair play."

By the way, nice to hear you on Mike Malloy the other night.:thumbsup:

[luaneryder]

44. Interesting that the mental score was blacked out

And a butt load of folks names appeared all over those forms-why have none of them come forward to say "I saw George Bush at drill." As far as typos go, I recall in the early days of doing admin work with the Army NG that we were absolutely required to retype any form that was not correct, period. Of course, they could have been altered at any point or just retyped and replaced. They need to be on the defense big time for AWOL.

[Karenina]

45. Kick!

:kick:

[donhakman]

46. Deserter or not the game of missing records indicate guilt

[Karenina]

47. Military bureaucracy

is a fucking PAPER FACTORY. I vote to CONVICT.

[thecrow]

48. Page 16 looks like

the words were blanked out then typed over with a typewriter that typed the "d" above the rest of the type (Not the same typewriter, perhaps?) but I agree, we will never know.
Has anybody tried contacting any other persons mentioned in these papers?

[benburch]

55. Google Bomb?

What if we started to Google-bomb http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/gwbbio.html">Undesireable Discharge?