Weep For The Women

[MaryH]

I think about those women in Iraq and Saudi and Iran, etc. a lot. What a life they lead.

The women in Iraq had some degree of freedom. Many of them were professionals.

If the radicals get control - which they very well could - all of those women will be caught and dragged back to the 15th Century.

How must it feel to wear a Burqua when it is 110 outside. Or anytime, for that matter. Can't let your ankles show. It may turn some man on.

Can't speak, can't control any part of your life. Live at the whim of men around you.

It is awful.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. its afghanistan all over again

[slinkerwink]

2. yes, it is awful, and even here in the US, our reproductive rights are

being endangered by the American Christian Taliban.

[MaryH]

3. Yea, But

I live around the fundamentalists and have most of my life. I watch what I say around them - its not worth a fight. And I don't want to step on their right to believe what they do.

When I was younger I live in Salt Lake City, which is far worse - that place is a true theocracy. You could get hurt saying too much too loud there.

Here in Missouri I just don't put a bumper sticker on my car because I'm afraid my car would get messed up.

But they are nowhere close to the Taliban. Where women were executed just because someone felt like it. Where women couldn't work or go to school. Where women could not see doctors.

Where a good horse was worth way more than a woman.

[slinkerwink]

4. Women here are killed by their spouses, and one of every three women

has been raped here. That's a very high statistic here.

[MaryH]

6. Oh, I'm not arguing with you

We still need to do a lot here. Women get beaten up all the time. I'm not usre the statistics - but it's pretty high. Women get mugged and raped and killed.

But we are not killed by the thousands because our husband's family wants another dowry - like in India. Or burned with acid.

We could do a lot worse. But, we have a long way to go, too.

[DrWeird]

14. Agreed.

I figure we should clean up our own mess before we complain about other people's cultures.

[RivetJoint]

20. One of three has been raped?

Can you provide a citation for that?

[slinkerwink]

27. Here you go...

In the United States, 1.3 women are raped every minute. That results in 78 rapes each hour, 1872 rapes each day, 56160 rapes ech month and 683,280 rapes each year.

1 out of every 3 American women will be sexually assulted in her lifetime.

The United States has the world's highest rape rate of the countries that publish such statistics. It's 4 times higher than Germany, 13 times higher than England, and 20 times higher than Japan.

1 in 7 women will be raped by her husband.

83% of rape cases are ages 24 or under.

1 in 4 college women have either been raped or suffered attempted rape.

1 in 12 males students surveyed had commited acts that met the legal definition of rape. Furthermore, 84% of the men who had commited such acts said what they had done was definitely not rape.

75% of male students and 55% of female students involved in acquintance rape had been drinking or using drugs.

Only 16% of rapes are ever reported to the police.

link here at: http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~ad361896/anne/cease/basicspage.html

[RivetJoint]

28. Nice job of twisting stats

Sexual assualt is NOT rape.

[slinkerwink]

29. Sexual Assault IS rape....it's a violation of the woman's personal space

SEXUAL ASSAULT includes a wide range of victimizations, distinct from rape or attempted rape. These crimes include completed or attempted attacks generally involving unwanted sexual contact between the victim and offender. Sexual assaults may or may not involve force and include such things as grabbing or fondling. Sexual assault also includes verbal threats.

It is prosecuted under law.

[RivetJoint]

32. No

Sexual assualt includes such things as unwanted touching, including "stealing a kiss." While that behavior is WRONG, it is NOT rape.

[slinkerwink]

34. Sexual assault is attempted rape...

and that's what "unwanted touching, forcing oneself upon a woman, pushing her legs open" is.

[RivetJoint]

35. No

That is not true...while ANY unwanted touching is WRONG...ANY unwanted touching of a woman by a man can be called sexual assult, even if the man was NOT attempting to rape the woman.

[slinkerwink]

36. Ha! Unwanted Touching is a Precursor to Rape!

Most women know that. Grabbing one's breasts and trying to force oneself upon the woman is attempted rape.

[RivetJoint]

38. So

If I rub my hand against a woman's butt while dancing, THINKING that she wanted me to, since she's been kissing me all night long...but finding out she did NOT wnat me to go that far, and I immediatley stop...that's attempted rape? I admit it is a sexual assault (if she presses the issue, but I mainatin it is NOT attempted rape!)

[slinkerwink]

41. That's sexual assault because you did NOT ask her if she

wanted you to do that.

However, when the woman is in a private space with you, and the intent is clear on your part that you want to have sex with her by forcing yourself on her with kissing, sexual molestation, and verbal threats, that is attempted rape.

[RivetJoint]

42. Right it IS sexual assualt

BUT not attempted rape now, is it?

The second part of your post? Yes, that can be construed as attempted rape if the woman has not consented

[slinkerwink]

44. Sexual Assault and Rape are counted as the statistics

because it happens to one of every three woman in this country. Just because one is lesser than the other in terms of categorical definition does NOT excuse its alarming prevalence in this country.

[RivetJoint]

46. You claimed (from one

study) that 1 in 3 women were RAPED. Want to tkae that back now?

[slinkerwink]

49. No, I won't

[RivetJoint]

51. You won't admit you are wrong?

mighty big of you

[slinkerwink]

53. I'm not wrong....I'm right

It's rather interesting how you're trying to debunk valid rape statistics.

[RivetJoint]

59. I'm not trying to debunk ANYTHING

1. You cite one study (a study BTW that makes no mention of its methodology)
2. You say that Sexual assualt = rape. Thatis OBVIOUSLY wrong. And you know it is.

[slinkerwink]

62. Sexual assault is often a precursor to Rape

and it's a violation against the woman's personal space. Besides, many victims of sexual assault are traumatized and suffer from it just like rape victims do.

[RivetJoint]

One question:

Is all sexual assualt rape?

[DrWeird]

65. Sexual assault and rape are pretty much the same damn thing.

You're spltting hairs. If somebody is sexually assault and they feel the need to report it to the police/ go to the hospital then you may as well call it rape.

[RivetJoint]

66. ANY unwanted touching

of a "sexual" nature (e.g., a man touching a woman's breast) is sexual assualt. How is that pretty much the same thing as rape?

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RivetJoint]

68. Well

You've just threatened me.

[DrWeird]

69. No I didn't.

I just made a pass at you.

Why are you being such a big baby about it?

[RivetJoint]

70. You made a threat

You could not support your feeble arguement so you resorted to Repuke tactics.

[DrWeird]

71. Not at all. I just asked if I could come over so we could get it on.

C'mon, it's not like I ever had to ask your wife before.

[RivetJoint]

BTW, I don't always "ask" my wife

before I to kiss her or grab her ass. I suppose to you that is attempted rape?

[slinkerwink]

47. you should always ASK her, no matter what

[RivetJoint]

55. BS

I will not ALWAYS ask my wife "may I kiss you" before I do. You have ANY idea how crazy that sounds? Take a poll on here, I bet only a few whack jobs agree with you on that!

[slinkerwink]

57. You should always ask the woman

Always. My ex-boyfriends always asked me if I was in the mood to be kissed.

[RivetJoint]

60. Key word is EX

[slinkerwink]

64. so?

My last ex-bf and I parted because he lived too far away from me and we couldn't afford the money for a long-distance relationship.

[Unperson 309]

58. Difference between Assault and Battery!

Sexual assault is anything from yeling "Hey BABY! Nice RACK!!" to the vilest language imaginable and refusing to allow a woman to leave the area where her assailant is... but it does NOT include touching... THAT is sexual BATTERY!

Rape is sexual battery. But battery can be anything from as light as a touch on the shoulder to rape and murder.

Assault is verbal or visual, battery is physical contact.

And yes, nearly all women have been sexually assaulted. I'd say the ration is more like 100% in sexual assault. Sexual battery, being *touching* is the one in three statistic and it does NOT mean one in three have been raped. It means one in three have been TOUCHED against their wills!

309

[RivetJoint]

61. Give it up

She'll never admit she is wrong.

[Pithlet]

31. Well, then. It's okay! n/t

[RivetJoint]

33. Wow!

How do you come to THAT conclusion???

[Pithlet]

37. Oh, I don't know

maybe it's the fact that you're coming into a sub thread about rape and posting nitpicky things like "You're stretching stats" and "sexual assault is not rape" What is your point, exactly? Because the only reason I can think of why someone would do that is they think that the person they're responding to is making too much of a deal out of rape. Do you honestly think she's taking about a problem that is rare and insignificant, and trying to blow it out of proportion?

This is exactly what I was talking about in another thread (not that you may have seen it, but others might know what I'm talking about). Nothing about issues dealing with women can be discussed without something like this happening. It's beyond absurd.

[RivetJoint]

39. I think that some people

do try to establish the point that men are all bastards.

[Pithlet]

43. Well

if that's what had been said, then I'd see why you would defend that. But, it was a stat about rape. Now, I don't know if it is overblown or not. It could be. But, what would be the point of pointing that out, exactly? Is it to prove the point that rape doesn't happen as often as women think it does? Is it trying to discredit the poster who is pointing out that we have problems in our own country? Rape is an issue, no? I don't think that discussing rape and its prevalence is a poke at men. It isn't all about them, see?

If I had issue with the stats, I'd say something like "Those stats may be a bit high. But, many women indeed are raped in this country, and it is an outrage, and we should do something about that". Or some such qualification. Because, when you butt in and just question the stat, and then add gems like "sexual assault is not rape" then it doesn't look good.

[RivetJoint]

50. I only butted in

because someone made a totally outlandish , unsupportable statement, designed to impugn all American men.

[slinkerwink]

52. it's supportable

and I just provided you the citations which you chose to ignore.

[RivetJoint]

63. It is NOT

Sexual assualt is NOT rape. Show me a study that shows that one in three has been raped...show me.

[DrWeird]

54. Horseshit.

nt

[Pithlet]

56. Women acknowledging rape!

It's down right man hating, I tell you! They need to just shut up about it. Why, it really chaps my hide when someone blows up a thing like rape all out of proportion. The outrage!!!!

I'm sorry, but now you're just sounding downright silly.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pithlet]

7. We do have our problems here

But I am thankful every day that I wasn't born there. Good points. I can't imagine how awful it is. I hope we come nowhere close to that level of opression in this country. It's unlikely that would happen in my lifetime, but we must always fight it wherever it shows up.

[democratreformed]

5. And the children.

My feelings for all the people of that country can hardly be expressed.

[MaryH]

9. I know

Those and the people in Sudan. Talk about horrible. I see those poor women and their children and my heart just breaks.

It is just as bad to see Palestinian children carry AK-47's by the time they are old enough to walk.

Just a little human kindness would go so far. But it just doesn't seem to be there.

[democratreformed]

15. I just don't understand

why our country's leaders have to meddle in so many other people's affairs and hurt so many.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. The Iraqi women must be so grateful for our "help".

Which may very well result in their reduction to chattel since Boobya is working so hard to create the chaos and potential civil war that will kill them, their husbands, brothers, children.

Ain't the "War on Terrorism" just grand?

[Pithlet]

10. Less than a week before 9/11

I watched a documentary about how women are treated under the Taliban. When I watched 9/11 unfold, I thought about those women again, and in addition to the horror I was feeling about the attacks, I thought "It's going to get so much worse for them, now"

[MaryH]

12. Men

are at the root of all evil.

Hate to say it, but it's true. The male ego!

Did you see the special on PBS last nite about the women warriors - the Amazons. It was so interesting. Women who were extrmely strong and fought right along side their men. Woman warriors.

Maybe that is what we need. Women warriors for peace.

[Pithlet]

16. I wouldn't say it was that simple

I think there are a lot of factors at play. If it were just men, then we would suffer equally, here. I do think that there were husbands, fathers, and sons there who hated how their loved ones were treated, but were powerless to do anything about it.

I haven't caught the PBS special; it sounds interesting. I hope it's on again. Women Warriors for Peace. That has a nice ring to it.

[smirkymonkey]

22. My definition of war has always been:

"The male ego gone berzerk"

I think all the pent up female rage around the world is going to explode very soon. We are being pushed just way too far.

Didn't watch PBS last night, but I watched the South Park Mormon episode, interesting. Dum, dum, dum, dum,...dum, dum. :)

[MaryH]

25. My BA is in Anthropology

so I love to watch all of the archaelogical stuff on PBS.

But the idea of the Amazons being real - not just myth - is kind of fascinating.

They may really have existed. Women as strong as any man. Whoa - that's a pretty outrageous thought! I better cool it.

[tom_paine]

11. Well, unless the Busheviks are STOPPED Amerika 2100 will be much the same

With a Puritanical Christian flair, of course. No burquas, but the Handmaid's Tale is looking somewhat prophetic now.

Really, it's funny for the Imperial Subects of Amerika rto mock or say ANYTHING about Fundamentalist Third-World Nations with a joke for justice, legislative and media systems.

Why? Because it's what we will become if the Imperila Family and their 16th Century Wicth Burners aren't stopped.

[MaryH]

18. I don't think that will happen

Fundamentalists are really not very smart. You get them off topic and they have a hell of a time. Just sort of start to babble.

I don't want fundamentalists to give up what they believe. Many of them are very sincere. I just don't think they should be in control. They should have a voice. Be one voice among the many. And they shouldn't be discriminated against - which I don't think they really are. They like to claim that but it isn't true. Most people prefer to just leave them completely alone.

But they really should not be in control of our government - because they would change it to fit their own template - irregardless of how others felt. And that would not be a good thing. Because they are basically pretty dumb.

[Warren DeMontague]

26. People Can Believe Whatever They Want..

Want to believe that the universe is made out of Gouda Cheese, and offer supplications to a giant invisible lizard that you believe controls your destiny? Be my guest. People, fundamentalists included, are welcome to believe whatever they want. However, when they (or anyone else, for that matter) start trying to pass laws about what I or my family can do with our own bodies, what we can read or watch in the privacy of our home, or what kind of nonsense is supposed to be taught to my children in their public school science class, then their beliefs become my problem. If the "left behind" crowd only wanted to be "left alone", they wouldn't bug me.

And, while the crazed Christian fundamentalists in this country might not be at the Taliban level yet, there are plenty of "leaders" and "thinkers" in the movement (who have influence over GOP policy) that quite openly advocate such things as "biblical law" in the US, including the death penalty (by stoning, presumably) for "crimes" such as homosexuality, blasphemy, disobeying of one's parents, and "unchastity" (uh-oh)

[LittleApple81]

30. You are NOT PAYING ATTENTION. Like the bumpersticker: If you

are not FURIOUS your are not PAYING ATTENTION. Aren't you seeing all the signs?
In Texas doctors and pharmacies can refuse to fill prescriptions for contraceptives... what happens if you live in a small town and the only doctor who can and will prescribe them refuses to do so and the pharmacy won't sell them to you??? (there was a post in DU about this a few days ago).
RWingers, fundies and THE CATHOLIC CHURCH are determined to end feminism.
Rowe vs. Wade is dangling by a thread.
Overtime pay will be replaced by "comp time" even if the mothers and fathers NEED the overtime (if Bush gets away with it).
OPEN YOUR EYES... The fundies and the Taliban are different just in a matter of degrees... and getting closer by the minute. When a breast is more offensive than talking about erectile disfunction (in the same sports break) WE ARE IN TROUBLE. Women breats are not offensive; THEY WERE MADE BY their GOD...

[tom_paine]

40. I agree with your sentiments, certainly, any non-Bushevik Free American

would.

Yes..."one voice among many" as America was originally designed.

Amerika however, like so many Totalitarian nations before it, is all about absolute empowerment of a minority by False Magnification, Bullying, Intimidation, Dirty Tricks, and Murder.

Let us not forget the Nazis, who pulled the German Fundamentalists with him and was, like his successor Bush*, sold himself as an Uber-Christian annointed by God to lead Germany during the Time of Crisis.

Sound familiar?

I guess my point is that stupidity and gullibility does not necessarily equate to inability to seize power.

"You are a lesson in history, Sejanus, of how a small mind married to unlimited ambition and with no scruple can destroy a nation full of more clever men."
--Roman Senator Asinius Gallus, to Emperor Tiberius' John Ashcroft (Sejanus)

Some things never change.

[Tardisian]

13. Do you remember...

when the newspapers & news shows went on and on about the imminent and then done destruction of the two Buddha statues? (And no, I don't think it was an UNimportant topic)
It interested me how much LESS attention was given to the plight of human rights in that very same country.

Apparently, if it's just a buncha wimmin getting beaten or killed, it's not as important as two statues being defaced.
Priorities, anyone?

[MaryH]

19. I remember that

But I also remember hearing about the Taliban and the way the women were being treated. News specials probably.

That was the reason I wasn't upset to hear we were going in to take the Taliban out.

I just cannot even imagine what life must be like for those poor women. Always afraid. Beaten. Alone. Other women afraid to help them.

American women would probably get guns and start fighting back. But we have years of being who we have become.

I wonder what would happen.

[never_get_over_it]

17. The radicals already have control

in many places in Iraq. The women in Iraq are way worse off now then they were with Saddam - THANK YOU GEORGE - On some raido show yesterday and I can't remember which one - an article was referenced written by a Brit - who said basically there are many locations in Iraq where the fundamentalist are in control....this is just terrible and what is so sad is so many Americans don't get it or don't care.

[Cleita]

21. I'll tell you something. I am anti-gun or anti-weapon in

general for civilians, however, anyone who forced me to wear something like that can be sure I would be packing a piece and ammo. This would amount to war for me. I would consider it my right to defend my civil liberties.

[MaryH]

23. You wouldn't be alone!

Everytime I see one of those things I think about the fact that you would never be able to see anything clearly - looking through that little peephole.

And can you imagine what that is like in the summer?

But I do look good in blue.

[smirkymonkey]

24. I'm with you....

I would kill and die before I would live life like that.

[kittykitty]

45. Read "Reading Lolita in Tehran" for a good description of

the imposition of Islamic fundamentalist law on a formerly secular society. I'm only half-way through, but it must have been horrible.
The mindless slaying of the intelligentsia is so sad. Iraq will be be next.

[eridani]

72. Think of Shirin Ebadi

A feminist human rights lawyer in Iran, where that's a damn uncomfortable thing to be. She is hanging in there and fighting instead of emigrating to a more congenial place. Let's hook up with people like that and help them directly.