America needs a better or new education system

[ParisFrance]

In my opinion I think America's education system needs radical change. Yes, George Bush has made us worse off , but the system is what needs changing. I think Germany,France,England,Japan, and South Korea all have better education systems. I would like to see us copy one of their systems. Germany filter their children out by the 4th grade. Germany sends the children off to challenging courses that will lead them to college or else they're sent off to easier education and then to trade schools.(mechanics,etc)I can't elaborate on Japan , but I think they have a similar system. England,France, and South Korea all have extremely challenging systems.

[democracyindanger]

1. Just one simple change

could work wonders: Make school year-round. Forget all the debates about grading systems and standards. The vast majority of American kids haven't needed the summer off to work in the fields for the better part of a century.

'Course, that would cost more public dollars. So we can pretty much forget it.

[ParisFrance]

3. Making school longer would help

I think one major problem is kids are only trying to get good grades instead of actually learning. I'm not sure how you fix this. Maybe have very challenging cumulative test at the end school year(finals now days are usually easy and oftentimes do not cover the whole semester or year) and if they can't pass, they must learn repeat the course.

[Veggie Meathead]

28. Over the past two years, as the parent of several teenagers,

I have taken some steps at home that have helped and I would like to share them with all of you.

1.There is no TV in our house.All of them have been given away or
sold.There is no subscription to cable TV.This not merely frees
up the time for the kids but has the added advantage of blacking
out CNN, Faux TV,NBC,ABC,MSNBC etc.

2.Kids have to sit up at a table and do their studies.No reading
on bed is allowed.
3.All their stereo,iPod,and other distraction have been confiscated
by mom and dad.
4.Instant Messenger access is blocked from 6:00 PM to 10:PM
After they show they have completed their homework and other
assignments,they are allowed to spend 30 minutes on IM.
5.They are allowed a quota of one movie per month and one outing
to the mall per month.

I have noticed a tremendous improvement in their grades and
attitudes toward studies after these two years.After the usual
whining about dumb mom and dad,of course.

[buycitgo]

32. you looking to get Menendezized?

I work in a junior high and would bow at your feet if you were a parent at our school

you hit the nail on the head

as bad as our educational system is, RIFE with the flaws attendant to any huge, bloated bureaucracy, the KEY is having parents who will not accept failure on the part of their kids

course, with single parent families almost the rule in many areas, the sort of regimen you enforce is nearly impossible

ad to the mix intense peergroup pressure, not to mention administration/school district/state/federal strictures, and you have a recipe for disaster

good students very often learn DESPITE the madhouses into which they're thrust

I wish it were different, but, like the pentagon, the congress, any large program you name, change will be minimal and glacially slow.

unLESS of course, radical reactionaries inflict destructive policies like the Orwellian No Child Left Behind dicta, which has done more to set back education in an amazingly brief period of time than anything other than the rise of private religious schools, begun in answer to federally mandated desegregation

I salute you for the LOVE you show your children

if only EVERY parent spent the time and effort you surely must in raising responsible citizens

all the best luck to you, cause you're probably going to need it

[salvorhardin]

36. No TV at all?

You don't find PBS shows such as Nova or Scientific American Frontiers to be of value? Just curious... this is coming from a guy who has no television either -- by choice. While it would be nice to have PBS back again, since I live in a reception poor area I can't justify the $35+ per month just for one channel alone. There are a handful of other channels I'd like (SciFi, Comedy Central) but they aren't on the basic tier here and so it becomes even more difficult to justify $70+ per month just for three or four channels of value.

I can, however, justify broadband internet since I actually work from home managing a small hosting and development business (PHP, MySQL, etc.). So, almost all television shows I would want are available via bit torrent, as well as thousands of audio sources (internet radio). This is much better anyway as I just download and watch when it suits my schedule.

Thinking back on my childhood though, especially my teen years, I'm extraordinarily grateful for PBS and The Learning Channel (at least the way it used to be). Shows such as Connections, The Day the Universe Changed, The Machine That Changed the World, that Western Civ. course (can't remember the name), courses on calculus, French, etc. all enriched my learning greatly.

It's a tough call to say to your kids, "no more TV" and I respect you for the decision.

[poliguru]

6. Actually it wouldn't

but it would suck anyway.

Schools are generally up an running all year round, so that cost increase is negligent (utilities, etc.). And since vacations time would then be spread throughout the year, salaries would be the same.

But as a teacher, I could never work in a year-round school. I need that summer to keep me from getting burned out. I know there's a lot of teachers on this board, and I'm not sure how they feel, but every teacher I know counts down to summer like's it's Christmas, age 4. you cannot get me out of that school fast enough. And by the end of the summer, I'm ready again.

Teachers face so much pressure and crap it's unbelievable. There's a million reforms that can be made within the traditional year it would amaze you. Someday I'm going to open my own school and run it the way it should be run.

BTW - No Child Left Behind as a solution? Please. It made things WORSE!!!!

[ChoralScholar]

12. I'm gonna have to agree

Teaching is a very difficult profession. If we began making teachers teach year-round, the quality of education provided would go down instead of up. I need the time for professional development, rejuvination, and to just generally get pumped-up about teaching again.

[democracyindanger]

22. I understand

I've got friends who are elementary school teachers. But couldn't substitutes fill in for a light summer schedule, backing up teachers who want to continue teaching year round?

Sure, there would be things to work out. But there's something to be said for kids learning in a structured environment throughout the year.

[poliguru]

44. Substitutes are worthless

especially in urban areas. Here in Chicago, the subs sit and let the students literally do whatever they want - run in and out of the classroom, leave, go through the teacher's cabinets and desks, fight, etc. And subs don't have teacher certification - to be a sub all you need is a bachelor's in ny area, and that's not sufficient to be a teacher.

[NuttyFluffers]

25. i had year round school as a child

and it was great for me. and the teachers didn't look overworked at all.

see, after 3 months, right when everything is starting to get tedious, you get a month long vacation. so in essence you are never given a chance to burn out. every three months you get a 4 week vacation - paperwork doesn't pile up, the drama has time to settle back to neutral, administration has time to catch up on fixes and inadequacies. i think it's a great way to apporach school.

i also believe the most important thing is to teach children how to think for themselves. all this inordinant amount of testing is getting out of hand. but giving kids the tools to handle their own problems, while providing support and encouragement to explore, you'll find many kids are ravenous learners and will become a pleasure to teach.

and i think play really needs to be reincorporated into education. if it ain't fun people are gonna hate it. making it fun learning becomes a joy. in fact most of our learning seems to come from play, or so says recent child development research that i've stumbled on. even though i know little about the science behind it, i must say the results have a ring of truth...

[poliguru]

45. A month?

Students, according to studies, start to lose information after a week. A month off is pretty much the same as 2 months off, in learning terms. Those off us who teach will probably testify to the fact that even when they come back from the weekend, we're playing catch up.

[NuttyFluffers]

68. we also had optional school programs, too

so if you went on a family vacation, cool, go. if you just hanged out at home you had the option to go to school and play educational games.

and i never experienced, nor noticed in my classmates, such problems in retention. maybe i should take a class in child development, but in my experience they are like sponges sucking it all in and letting nothing of worth go.

nothing like the recovery time needed in america. i would come back from summer break and forget how to use a pencil, let alone any lessons. and i would forget so much stuff on winter breaks....

y'know. it might have something to do with media. we only had 1 channel in saudi arabia and children programming was between 8am~4pm. so even if you hung out at home sick you were watching educational children programs. and there were no ads. we were shielded from the absolute barrage of advertisements you get here. i wonder if that has anything to do with it? it might, and wouldn't surprise me much. maybe TV really does rot your brain and pushes out information learned in school?

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

67. Teacher's never look over worked,

but they are. They are very good at hiding it because they want to remain positive for their students.

[Elginoid]

29. my neighbor teaches in a year-round school- and loves it.

rather than one long summer vacation, he gets several 3-week vacations spread thru the year.

[buycitgo]

33. amenamenamenamen

absolutely correct

last year left me almost catatonic

see my post above yours, and the one to which I responded

NCLB has DEVASTATED our school district

[poliguru]

2. Filter out?

That's exactly the problem with those systems - if you were going to point to one thing I dislike about them, that's the one!

Those systems "filter out" KIDS and set their life courses down in friggin' 4th grade? How is that a good thing? Maybe you're a goof off as a kid but later in high school get serious and mature a bit with age. Maybe you have an undiagnosed learning disability. Maybe personal family stuff is interfering with your studies, like divorce or poverty or moving from place to place. Then, WHAM! You can't go to college in 8 years.

Incidentally, Japan is changing their system to be more like ours. Britain and Ireland are also finally starting to notice all the disenfranchised people that later become burdens on welfare systems and, in the case of Northern Ireland, terrorists.

There definitely need to be reforms in the US ed system. But that's not it. And as I am a public school social studies teacher, I can tell you for hours on end the details, but I'll spare you all the non-request material.

[ParisFrance]

4. Interesting that Japan is changing, I know they now are on a 5 day school

week or are about to change from a 6

[poliguru]

5. Changing methods too

They've been moving towards more active engagement learning, which is a hallmark of US education.

[ParisFrance]

7. And raising teacher's wages, because a quality teacher can be

much better than small classes if the teacher they hired is horrible. I think the new teachers being hired now days are quite poor in parallel to those who used to become teachers. I believe this is because women now have so many more opportunites in life for various jobs that they no are becoming the teacher or the nurse that they used to become.

[poliguru]

8. I disagree

The teachers I have worked with at three different schools now (not counting the ones I worked with in college during practicums) are incredibly bright, dedicated, creative, open individuals. You have to be, to work this job.

But if you make no money, why teach? And class size is a major issue - try teaching 35 1st graders to read.

[idlisambar]

10. Yes, but...

...it is undeniable that there is room for improvement. One particular example of note is the shortage of good qualified math and science teachers at the secondary school level. My football coach taught my Geometry class, and he tried hard, but it's a less than ideal situation.

[ChoralScholar]

14. what? the overall quality of teachers is declining

because women are entering other professions? That's a load of crap. I happen to think, in my part of the country that there is better teaching coming from the '5yrs experience and under' crowd than is coming from the 30yrs+ crowd. Teachers are now being trained more rigorously than ever before, and the standards are getting higher every year. Students are learning educational techniques and pedagogies in their undergrad programs that 50 years ago weren't getting covered until post-graduate school.

[idlisambar]

9. Do you have any more information on their changes

Any links?

By reputation, the Japanese school system has been regarded as one of the best in the world, not that there are no weak points -- a heavy emphasis on rote learning is often cited. I am wondering what kind of changes are being made and whether anything of value is being sacrificed.

[drhilarius]

13. exactly my case!

When I was in the fourth grade I was extremely hyper. I was bright, they said, but my behavior was disruptive and my grades were, well, awful. I, more than likely, would have been weeded out. By 6th grade, two short years later, I buckled down and was put into accelerated math and reading programs. I'm in Grad school today, and I wouldn't be had some administrator decided to weed me out and plan my destiny for me.

[sandnsea]

27. Or school to work

Which is what they have in Oregon. One group goes to AP and the rest regular high school. The problem is regular high school just doesn't have the standards school used to have. Ever since they put in school to work, back in the 80's, the kids have tested worse and worse. It's fine to offer AP classes, but the regular classes should educate kids to a high standard too. They ought to be educated enough to be able to attend college after attending regular classes. I don't think anybody intended school to work, or "filtering out", to mean we'd end up with the majority of our high school graduates poorly educated.

[Elginoid]

30. it's the parents, isn't it?

the biggest change that needs to be made to the u.s. education system is more parental involvement in the home.
they're your kids , not your friggin' pets.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

11. I spent one year in a French school when I was 15

It was a regular and ordinary French public school and I was the only American. Classes started at 8:30 in the morning, and went until 5:30 at night, with a 2 hour break for lunch. Classes went on for 6 days a week, with half days on Wednesdays and Saturdays. There was no such thing as study hall, homework being done only at home. Instead, there were more courses including at least 2 foreign languages, science and math courses, philosophy, geography, history, music, art, gym, literature, and grammar and composition. What struck me the most, however, was the complete lack of social life for the students in the school. There were no school teams, no cheerleaders, no homecoming queens, no dances or proms, no school clubs, no school pep rallies, no school jackets, no school mascots or fight songs, no jock cliques, no babe cliques, no stoner or geek factions, and almost no gossip whatsoever regarding who was dating who. Students let off steam outside of school at the notorious "surprise parties" that took place in someone's basement or house, with record players and drinks, that turned into near orgies at times. At school, boys were expected to wear coat and tie and girls were told not to show up if they wouldn't wear a dress (this was in the 60's, things might have loosened up somewhat since). School was oriented around study and good behavior. It was very common for a student to flunk a grade and repeat at least one year in the typical student career because the grading system was very stringent. Students were given an allowance of up to three warnings each year for acting up, after which they would be summarily expelled, with no possibility for appeal. Also striking was the fact that beer and wine were served to students in the school cafeteria and smoking was freely allowed. I attended the school when it first opened. At the grand opening, the Mayor of the City came to speak and each student (of which there must have been 600 or 700) was allowed two cocktails. Mine were whiskey and soda, even though I was 14 years old when the school opened in the fall. No one thought that odd at all.

[ChoralScholar]

15. There's a rule of percentages in play here

any country with schools that educate only the 'best and brightest' will have higher scores than us. Always.

I don't think this is a reason to quit offering education for every single child, just so we can compare 'science and math' scores with other countries.

If we spent a little more time paving our own road in education, instead of worrying about someone else's, we'd probably be better off.

[DemBones DemBones]

21. No, but we shouldn't allow the brightest kids to be bored

to death or expect the less intellectually able to learn exactly the same things as the academically gifted. There are different types of intelligence and we need to stop pretending everyone is the same or that one intelligence is better than another.

Do you know what a teacher is supposed to do with the kids who finish assignments early? Give them extra work in the guise of "enrichment"! That's a form of punishment. Programs for the gifted don't help much, either, unfortunately. They need more challenge.

On the other hand, a lot of kids need someone to notice what they are good at and help them realize it and encourage them to see that they can do other things, too, including passing classes they view as impossible.

[MUSTANG_2004]

41. Good points

Which is why we homeschool ours. Bright children simply aren't challenged by any except the very best teachers.

[poliguru]

47. that's a lack of gifted training for teachers

In college I had exactly no training with gifted education. Luckily for me, I was a gifted kid, and so I remember how crappy it was and had a frame of reference for what my students needed. Teachers are receiving some training now in differentiated learning, which can be used. For example, I would determine my unit objectives and then develop different assignments, all reaching that objective, for different ability levels. It works really well. But with NCLB, it's tougher to do that cause teaching to the test undercuts those teaching strategies we know work.

[ChoralScholar]

64. that, however, works under

the FALSE assumption that, with perfect teaching, all children can reach the same level of achievement. People with PhDs in Special and Gifted education cannot take a room of 30 4th graders and make them achieve at the same level. This is one place where our nice liberal ideals of equality do not apply. We must treat each child as an individual case and help them achieve the best of THEIR potential, not a number on a test.

[poliguru]

66. That's what diff. learning is

Basically, it's like teaching multiple classes at once, So if my objective is to understand the purposes of the Declaration of Indepence and what effects it had, my "low" group will be assigned a cause/effect poster, my "average" group will analyze three of the listed offenses of King George and explain the historical background of them and present-day examples in either the US or world relating to the examples, and the "high" group will take a challenging primary source like the Declaration of Sentiments and write an analytical essay. (These were three actual assignments I gave when I taught 7th grade.) All the kids were challenged at their level, all the kids learned, no work was over the kid's head, and they all could still discuss the topic as a class because the all met the same objectives. Differentiated learning is basically setting classroom content goals but individualizing the skill goals. So while they will reach the same level of content achievement, the skills that make someone low, average, or high achieving are different.

[DemBones DemBones]

69. In your example, you'e effectively tracking the kids within one class,

instead of separating them into three different classes.

Problems I see with that are:

1) that it would be difficult to do with NCLB, as you said, or just with the state standards I was supposed to teach to. Not all content can be broken down into three levels yet still meet the standards.

2) it's a form of tracking, and some kids and/or parents would object.

3) in college prep classes, there shouldn't be any tracking or remedial work.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

16. US schooling was meant to be a social control device in the 19th century.

And it was modified around 1900 by the robber baron's desire to churn out useful drones.

It must be changed or we will lose any hope of a shred of a democracy.

http://www.sntp.net/education/education.htm
(History of Modern Education as Mind Control)

My mother is a college history professor. She and her teacher friends all say that the kids coming to them from high school are less and less able to think critically every year.

Especially since 9/11 and the waves of fearful propaganda that TV Nation swallows daily.

[poliguru]

48. No it wasn't

The site you reference has quite a few selective truths in it.

The simple fact is that by the 1500s, Europe was starting to realize education was extremely important. By the 1600s, commoners were becoming educated too. Even though we know it's important, we often don't know how to go about it.

[idlisambar]

17. Read this book...

Lessons From Abroad: How Other
Countries Educate Their Children," by Richard P. McAdams

For in depth descriptions of the "education ecosystems" (my term) of several nations including the U.S., Britain , Germany, Canada, Denmark, and Japan. A real mind-opener, guaranteed, and it will convince you that the education debate in this country is conducted on ridiculously narrow terms.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

18. One of the studies done on this suggests it's two things primarily

One, in countries where grades are very good, the textbooks are very small. They cover a very limited amount of material but they cover it extrememly well. If you went to school here in the US you probably remember huge math textbooks and going through it as fast as you can and then the next year having no clue what was going on and having to review for half a year.
Two, the socratic method used in other countries forces kids to think instead of just ingesting what they are told in lecture. Critical thinking skills build grades in all subject areas.
I tend to agree, and I believe this was actually instituted in the Minnesota math department with good results.

[DemBones DemBones]

20. Yes! Textbooks are another thing that needs to change.

I left high school teaching for a college faculty position and think it's ridiculous to use texts for high school that are as detailed as college texts. High school students are "covering" so much material that they can't master or retain it.

[poliguru]

49. Testing samples are important too

It has been noted in several studies that when we test, we test everyone. When other countries test, they test their better kids. So do they really have a better education system?

[DemBones DemBones]

19. When I was teaching public school, I became convinced that

year-round school is needed. Kids forget too much over the summer and from Thanksgiving on they are just waiting for the next holiday -- Christmas, spring break, summer. A year round school could give teachers and students a vacation period every three months so all could have a fresh start. I've always said teachers work twelve months a year, they just do it all in ten months, which is exhausting, so I think this could be better for teachers. There would have to be provisions for teachers taking courses to update their certificates or add another degree or certification area but colleges would adapt to their needs.

About tracking: I was surprised when I learned that kids could just opt for college prep courses, whether they were up to the work or not. It was not like that when I was in school (I was out of high school twenty years before teaching public school) and I don't think it should be that way. I realize kids can change but they should have to show they've changed before getting in college prep classes.

Grade inflation is a serious problem in high schools and colleges and it's not helping the students to graduate with a B average and D level education.

[shraby]

23. I think maybe a little of the old along with

the new is in order. Do away with SAT for a start and rely on what the teachers determine the child knows when they are ready for college or not...they are professionals for crying out loud. As it is now, too much time is spent just studying for that test, which is a dubious one at best. When I was in school, we had a test at the end of each semester and a final at the end of the year as well as the little "surprises" in between.

I was helping my grandchildren with their math and the 4th grader is being TAUGHT to estimate answers. Why waste time on that? Teach them the math and they will figure out how to estimate on their own.

Make better books. When my children were in high school, I was helping them with their algebra and wanted a definition for one of the terms..the definition in the back of the book used the term in the definition. Sheesh! The algebra book as far as teaching algebra was a mess..no rhyme or reason to it.

The state history book left a lot to be desired also, can't remember the particulars but it was sorely lacking.

See to it that every child HAS a textbook that they can take home to study from. Many times the work is sent home on a photocopy and the textbook has to stay at school because it might get damaged, ergo..nothing to refer to if there is a question. The textbooks I had when going to school had a number in it and the number was recorded at the beginning of the year and that was the book I'd better turn in at the end of the year..in decent shape so the year after it could be used.

I went to 7 different schools..one was a 2 room school, K-5 in one room and 6-7 in the other then they transferred to the high school; another was a 1 room school, K-7. What happens in those kinds of schools is this: each class has it's time for lessons, starting with the youngest and working up the line then repeat the order for another round. The younger ones learn from the older ones believe it or not because there isn't a whole lot for the youngest ones to do besides listen to the older ones having their class, and on occasion if an older one was stuck on a problem, the teacher asked if anyone else knew the answer and sometimes the younger ones would raise their hands. I think this had a lot to do with the fact that at the last school I attended when in the 6th grade they wanted to advance me to the 8th and just skip the 7th. My parents were wise enough to say no because I would have graduated at the age of 16, and as it was I had almost enough credits to graduate at 16 anyway but I lacked a couple so had to put in another full year and take a full schedule cause I couldn't just go for the classes I needed..that was a no-no then.

[salvorhardin]

37. Why estimation?

I think the reasoning is that it is a good idea for children to get a "feel" for the numbers rather than just mechanically churning through math problems.

I'm not trying to justify it... Especially since this is done more to improve test taking abilities than math abilities. After all, if you have a 100 question multiple choice multiplication exam, the child who is able to quickly estimate the right answer is the one who will score highest while the child who actually works through every single problem will be at a disadvantage.

[MUSTANG_2004]

38. No year-round school

Many kids spend summers on their own projects where they learn. My summers included setting up vegetable gardens, raising a menagerie of pets, undirected reading, and lots of physical activity. While "book-learning" is important, self-directed learning is also a key element of a child's growth.

[poliguru]

51. Depends on the school

In the district I went to school, there are a variety of citeria a student has to meet to get into an AP class. But in the district I taught in a couple years ago, a parent could just request it and the counselor would sign them up. Technically, the kids were supposed to meet criteria, but no one except the teachers wanted to enforce it because, after all, you don't want to anger the parents - they might not vote for your next referendum. Drove me crazy.

[Donkeyboy75]

24. You have some good points, but I strongly disagree with you

on the S. Korean and Japanese systems. It may be changing, but I'm in my late 20s and work with many Koreans and Japanese who are friends of mine. The learned, for the most part, by rote learning. Their success was also measured almost entirely by standardized testing, which means they were taught to pass tests, not learn critical thinking skills. I think their system is different, not better. Where I am, there is a generalization that holds somewhat true: American students are more entrepreneurial and creative, while the Korean and Japanese students are unbelievable sound in various subject material (at least in Science).

I also have a couple of Danish friends who seem to have both of these qualities. I agree, Paris, that our system needs to be tweaked. I do think students should be split up, probably not as early as 4th grade, but it has to happen. It's not PC here to do that, but the problem is that teachers teach to the middle of the class, and the slower students are left behind while the more advanced students are bored. A bad situation.

[NuttyFluffers]

26. y'know, and this sounds funny, my best school experience was

in saudi arabia. it was the school created for the foreign workers' children. elite local families were also allowed to send their children there as well (something with religious police giving them an exemption). though the religious police mandated that school must be limited in amount to restrict western influences, there was a compromise with the royal family to give children an education up to the 10th grade. after that the mullahs were adamant that extra education was not needed, aside from the koran. make a long story short, they didn't want to deal with foreign teenagers too deep in high school. but amazing the royal family got that consession out of them at all.

anyhoo, imagine a school with literally NO money restrictions. a school with the latest resources, the latest teachers, the latest textbooks, etc. teachers' aides made $50,000+ a year (in 1980s dollars). teachers $80-100+. a year round school. school open during the month breaks to host games and classes for fun, keeps us kids entertained. everything from drama plays, roller skating, sand castles, movies, creative writing, entomology for kids (bug watching!), etc. many classes divided children into skill groups - gold, silver, bronze - and there was a distinct expectation that all bronze kids will catch up into the silver section and many silver children would reach gold. and gold children were allowed to go as fast as their desire could take them. worked like a charm. kids were given lists of school tasks to finish before the day, but they could do it in any order. classes in art, language, gym, all the expected classics...

if you could perhaps imagine a schooling nirvana it was in that school in saudi arabia. and it was like this pretty much in each foreign student school (up to 10th grade ;D). ever since then i've been suffering from withdrawal because nothing has come close - not even college experiences. but i can most assuredly tell you that a lot of these recommendations work, at least from an anecdotal perspective. and also just about every kid from such schools go to fantastic educational heights. afterwards, families that normally wouldn't afford it, were able to send kids to elite european or american boarding schools to finish up high school. and most of these kids went on to fantastic colleges and became successes of themselves. i believe much of this has to do with an outstanding foundation provided by that saudi arabia school system. so, for what it's worth, all these "theories" have had some real world experience and came out with flying colors with a batch of kids i know of.

heh, still makes me laugh when i think of the contradiction too. saudi arabia had the best grade school education system i have ever seen... saudi arabia...

ps: and we didn't have those hate filled textbooks in our schools...... just to anticipate those nay sayers. Foreign Student Schools, keyword :foreign:.

[Veggie Meathead]

31. I think we as parents need to get more involved everyday in

what our children are learning and how they are learning it.I have several teenagersfrom Middle School to College.About eight years ago, I put in place several rules in our home that have helped my children
learn better and I though I should share these with you.
be quite heavy]

1.The first thing I did was get rid of all TV in our house.No cable subscription.This has the added advantage of keeping me from looking at the idiot talking heads at CNN, Faux TV,MSNBC etc.
2.All other distractions like MP3 players,CD players, iPods etc.
have been confiscated by Dad.
3.Kids are not allowed to study on bed.They have to sit at a desk upright and read or write.
4.They are not allowed access to Instant Messenger until 10:00PM
each night.To get access they have to show dad their completed
homework assignments.They have a one hour limit on their IM.
5. They have a quota of one movie outing per month or one mall outing per month.

Over the years, this has produced tremendous results.One of my daughters, got a perfect score in the SATs and got accepted at Duke's
premed program.My son who is graduating this year, has been accepted
at Johns Hopkins Engineering program.I have high hopes for the other two also.

If at all there is a culprit in our educational system, it is TV.
In my experience, TV fosters intellectual laziness and our children are basically told by the idiot talking heads to be clowns and not be thinking adults.

Like I used to tell my kids,TV tells you:

When I sits, I just sits
When I thinks, I falls asleep.

[phylny]

34. I'm not a fan of

"filtering" kids out at such a young age. Fourth grade is way too early to make a determination of placement that will forever change that child's life. I'm also not a fan of rote learning, because it shortchanges the child and deprives him or her of the opportunity to think critically, discuss, debate, and analyze information, all skills successful adults will need in college and/or in the work place.

If I were to hope for any reforms, they would be in equalizing the way education is funded, providing smaller class sizes, and raising curriculum standards as much as possible.

We've lived in three different school systems (and will begin our fourth next month) because we move so much. Each time, our children have received excellent educations from excellent teachers. Our oldest daughter is a first year student at the University of Virginia, studying biomedical engineering, and was the product of schooling in Indiana, Illinois, and Virginia. She had a better education from K-12 in those three systems than I did in New York State way back when, and is much better prepared for college than I was. Because we've been able to live in good suburban towns, and because we've always shopped school systems, our three daughters are doing well. I think this may be much harder to do in places that don't fund education or that don't have high community expectations for education. I'm not saying money is the cure - I think D.C. public schools are funded well, but many kids struggle there. Money isn't the cure, but many times it doesn't hurt.

There are a few basic reasons we've had success:

1) Hate to sound like I'm bragging because I'm not - this has little to do with my parenting - but we're blessed with three kids who have IQs that range from 120 - 140. Nothing here but probably genetics, nutrition, luck, and living in a household with college-educated parents. I'm only mentioning this because it is a huge factor - especially for those who think children are only "left behind" because some teacher isn't working hard enough. The Bush Administration has obviously not heard about bell curves, and doesn't understand that not all kids have a level playing field when it comes to academics. I'm a speech-language pathologist who has worked in public schools, of course in special education, and the package the kids come to school with will make some difference (not all). Children with IQs that range from 71-85 are going to struggle more, although of course they should be helped and nurtured along the way. Mind you, kids with those IQs are NOT eligible for special education based solely on those IQs, and they can easily slip through the cracks. So, part of our success is just luck.

2) Our first school system was fortunately located in Indiana, where at the time (and maybe this is still the case) there were mandated small class sizes for primary grades. IIRC, Kindergarten was no more than 17, first grade 18, second 19 kids in a class. This early smaller ratio has a profound effect on future success, I believe, for our first two kids. The school I last worked at had a large at-risk population, and was able to get funding from the county for smaller than county average class sizes and trained the teachers on some different ways to teach reading and language arts. The kids thrived. Therefore, I'm a BIG believer in small classes and Head Start - I've worked in two HS classrooms providing services, and am convinced that early intervention and small class size are key for at-risk students.

3) High expectations. We make it clear to our children through discussions and example that your education is the key to success. They are expected to devote time to their school work, to their projects, and to studying to do well in school. We never berate them if they get a grade less than what we or they expect; rather, they strive to do better the next time, and we praise that effort.

4) Handing the reins to them early on. Because I went back to college for a second bachelor's degree and then on to graduate school when they were little (18 months through 6 1/2), by necessity over the next six years, they became increasingly more responsible for themselves. We would always help with a problem they couldn't master, or with a project that took a lot of their time and energy, but the ultimate responsibility for schoolwork is theirs.

5) Extracurricular activities. We encourage them to do SOMETHING else besides school and TV/video games/computer. All three were involved in soccer, the youngest two still play on travel teams. Oldest one did debate, forensics, art club. Second daughter will do yearbook this year. One thing that I've loved about the schools we've gone to is that they've provided lots of different things to get kids busy and involved. This, too, requires funding, but it's an important part of the educational package.

There's nothing particularly newsworthy about what I've written, but from our side of the fence, we've been fortunate enough to live in communities that put education on the top of the list of "important things." While I know our experience may not be usual, it's proof that in many areas of this country, the system works. The best way to "reform" education in this country would be to identify successful school systems in ALL different socioeconomic areas, find out what they're doing, and duplicate it. No reason to reinvent the wheel when it's turning so well in so many communities.

[LWolf]

35. As an educator,

and someone who has been working in public ed for 22 years, I have to agree and disagree.

Agree: Our system needs radical change, and it's worse under GWB.

Disagree: "filtering" out kids and assigning them an educational/life path by the age of 9? No. "Copying" some other nation's system? No.

One of the best things about public ed in America is that we do not limit opportunities to learn; any type of education is open to any American at any age. Of course, we limit educational opportunities in myriad ways; educational opportunity is not "equal." But we don't deny opportunity to anyone based on age or past performance; if you can perform now, you can get the education.

GWB, through NCLB, has instituted an educational agenda nationally that has already been in place in some states for a decade. He just took it to Washington. My state of California under Pete Wilson, Texas under GWB himself, Florida under Jeb...and some others as well, have been legislating the neocon "standards and accountability" movement for a decade. Of course, the rhetoric sounds good. Who is against standards or accountability? But in this case, as we've seen in so many others, those are Orwellian labels.

Previously, what kind of education to pursue was the student's choice; general ed, a high school diploma, and trade school, or a high school diploma with college prep and ap courses required for admission to a university. Anyone who skipped all the college prep in high school and decided later that they wanted to attend college could start at the community college level and work their way up.

Today, the mandates taking incremental effect in high schools say that to get a diploma, you have to be eligible to attend a 4 year university. All of those advanced courses are required, and tested. That's the end goal, anyway. They're having trouble making that happen; all those kids who would have chosen the easier general ed path and gone to trade school aren't cutting it. It's part of the agenda to deny them the high school diploma. It's all about increasing the native pool of cheap labor.

I think we need radical changes, as well; just not those that you mention. I see this post is long enough already, so here is a short list of my suggested changes:

*small districts, small schools, small classrooms
*national teaching certification
*a very broad, general, national set of goals to form the framework for curriculum
*remove the now-tainted terms "standards" and "accountability."
*local control
*abolish all high-stakes testing
*restructure the bureacracy. Decisions made by actual teachers and parents, and put into action by administrators. Do away with the top-down authority.
*focus on individual needs and achievements
*massive investment in parent ed
*investment in before and after school programs, pre-school programs, and free public ed all the way through trade school or university
*salaries, working conditions, and respect designed to attract and keep good teachers

I could go on, but will stop before this post takes any more time to read through!

[salvorhardin]

39. I absolutely agree and would add...

...doing away with 8, 9, 10 period days and allowing for more classtime. It takes anywhere from 10-20 minutes for a student to refocus on a new subject. With 30-45 minute periods, half the class time is taken up simply with the student trying to change gears. Also, it leaves no time for classroom discussion. Ideally, I'd like to see a half day of shorter periods with a half day devoted to a single subject.

[LWolf]

43. I spent a year at a jr high that did something similar.

We only had 6 periods, not 8 or 9 or 10 (egads!)

3 of them were "A" and 3 of them were "B." They alternated every other day; this week, "A" periods were MWF, and "B" periods were T/TH. Next week they switched, so that you spent the same amount of time in each class, but class sessions were doubled in length. Sort of an early version of block scheduling. I can't speak for the teachers, but as students we liked it.

[yvr girl]

73. 8, 9, 10 periods a day!! Holy Cow.

In BC, I had a semester system with 4 classes per semester. We had 5 blocks a day. We always had the same class before and after lunch. The classes rotated time period. e.g.

Day 1: A, B, C, C, D
Day 2: B, C, D, D, A
etc.
First semester Sept - end of January. Second semester Feb - end of February.

I can't imagine taking twice as many classes a day.

Also, no study hall or spares.

In grade 12, our Provincial Final Exams were worth 50% of our grade. (I think that percentage has gone down.)

[democratreformed]

40. Funny, the first thing on your list

is small schools, small districts, and small classrooms. And our stupid governor was successful in forcing consolidation of schools with less than (was it 500?) a certain number of students this year.

I'm a former educator. When I left, it was with the firm belief that system was destined for a crash and resultant total revamping. We'll see, I guess.

[LWolf]

55. I'm not surprised.

We're a runaway train, and the track ahead is broken. It's not just the testing fiasco; we've been moving the wrong direction in just about everything we do these days.

We've been de-powered when we need to be empowered.

[chemteacher]

42. Piggyback on your comments...

I am a second career teacher (high school chem/physics) after 9 years in industry. I took a 55% pay cut 8 years ago to go from the lab to the classroom, but I have loved every minute of it.

Last year I went from a high school of 2500 to a new school of only 450 kids. Small helps. My classes were at least 32 kids, some 35 kids, but just knowing every kid in the school and not letting any kids off the hook or through the cracks was really powerful.

National certification helps. I am a National Board Certifiec Teacher and I found the process to be very reflective and a great professional challenge that elevated my teaching.

Finally, I have a great principal who battles for local control from the standpoint of insisting on a 12-K approach rather than a K-12 approach. We think in terms of graduation and kids going onto college and structure our programs that way. Then we work with the middle schools feeding into us and to communicate what it takes for kids to be prepared, etc.

[LWolf]

50. I'm glad to hear that.

You are absolutely correct about the powerful effects of knowing all the kids. I'm an elementary school teacher; I've worked in K-8 schools most of my career. When you have 500 or fewer students, you know most of them. You follow their progress after they leave your class. It's an educational family atmosphere, and you "catch" a lot more kids who would otherwise be dropped along the way.

Last year my school went from 500 to 900 due to redistricting; the 400 new kids flooded the place and really changed the dynamics. My class, mostly new to the school, was suprised and confused by the fact that kids were stopping by to visit throughout the day; just to say hi, to read or study during lunch or recess, to borrow things, to bring back things, to share a project, etc.. I kept trying to explain, but it took half the year before "They are my students, too," sunk in. Interestingly, it was the kids who were sent to me for some sort of a transgression that finally did it. Kids who came in to do a detention, and hung their heads in shame when they had to tell me about a behavior they didn't want me to know about.

[Maestro]

46. Have to echo LWolf here

The system needs some changing yes, but all in all, teachers are doing a damn fine job teaching given the circumstances under which many have to teach. The explanation by the original poster of how some countries administer their education systems is exactly why we cannot compare their system to ours. Our test scores for example reflect most every able bodied child while theirs reflects the best of the best. Also, our system allows for every child, no matter race, creed, color, religion or language to be educated.

To those that say that more and more children are not arriving with critical thinking skills or are just lazy, much of that is because of the assinine testing required and parent involvement in their education to push them to want to succeed.

LWolf has outlined what needs to be done but as long as politicians and the public want to talk down education none of this will happen.

Oh and critical thinking skills are being taught. My district has just told all teachers to teach these skills, do away with worksheets and forget about our state mandated test because if we teach, they will pass. Here is an example:

We do much hands on work, especially in science. Here the kids are exploring water density.

[LWolf]

52. I always love seeing pictures of your class!

I think my kids totally blew the standardized tests last spring. I don't think it, I know it, even though I haven't seen the scores. I got a group of 5th and 6th graders last year, most new to our school, who came in 1 - 3 years below where they should have been. I gave it everything I had, but I'm not superwoman. I didn't overcome a lifetime of neglect and achieve 3 years worth of academic growth in 9 months.

We did, however, learn to think. I was shocked at the beginning of the year. I don't think these kids, even in 5th and 6th grade, had ever done anything other than sound out words and fill in bubbles. I would ask a question, and their faces would go totally blank. Initiating discussion was like pulling teeth. All year long, I kept at it, and despaired of ever seeing "critical thinking" happen independently. Late in May, I was conducting a Socratic seminar with them, when all of a sudden I noticed that I was hardly doing anything. I gave them a topic. They were questioning, and stepping in to debate and discuss. They were talking about cause and effect relationships, and comparing perspectives. I was humbled. I'd been tearing out my hair all year long, and they'd been taking one step at a time, moving along, and I hadn't seen it. They bombed their standardized tests. They just learned one invaluable skill all year; they learned to engage the content. I'll bet their test scores rise next year!

[poliguru]

56. Good for you

Critical thinking is the single most important skill we can teach our students (as evidenced by the seeming lack of critical thinking exhibited by our president and his cronies). But the standardized tests don't even really test that skill. I teach thinking skills instead of to the test - I teach in inner city Chicago, so somehow I don't think they want to lose me.

[Maestro]

61. That is the most important thing

Learning to think and for the kids to be metacognitive thinkers analyzing their own thinking process. Don't worry about those damn tests. The egg doesn't hatch with you. Politicians seem to think that what has happened to a child before entering your classroom doesn't matter, but oh how it does.

I use thinking maps quite often in my classroom so the kids can visually see what they are thinking about.

http://www.thinkingmaps.com/

[LWolf]

65. We use thinking maps as well.

Organizing your thoughts and information appropriately for the task at hand is invaluable, isn't it?

[poliguru]

54. I would agree with almost all of this

The only thing that I'm still undecided on is longer class periods. I've done both, and they both have advantages and disadvantages.

50-min class: Find yourself rushing a bit through class sometimes. But, you get to spend a bigger peice of the year with the kids, facilitating the teacher-student relationship and creating a classroom climate.

90-min class: Great for in-depth learning, which I love. But sometimes I feel more rushed than in the 50-min class. In the 4x4 block schedule, we had 90 min classes. But the class itslef then was cut in half. So a poli sci class that would ordinarily be a semester class in a regular school? I had to teach poli sci in 9 WEEKS. That's crazy. Plus, by the time I started to get to know my students, they were gone.

[LWolf]

60. That's the American curriculum.

At this point, I don't think it matters how you organize the time. We used to be a mile wide and an inch deep. These days we're ten miles wide and a millimeter deep. There is more curriculum to "cover" than there is time to teach it, and the "accountability" system demands that we document "covering" it. So that's what we do. We make certain that all parts of the curriculum have been introduced in the amount of time we have, even though we know there wasn't time to actually learn it all. That's "covering," not teaching. Your dilemma with the scheduling choices is not that different than mine. As an elementary teacher, I teach multiple subjects to the same class all day. I start out determined to spend the time necessary to truly learn. About halfway through the year, I start to panic because we haven't gotten to half the curriculum, and half the last trimester is taken up with testing. So I start speeding up. By the time the big test arrives, I'm going way too fast, and I know it. I can say I showed them, but I know they can't "get" it that fast. Then I spend the test window and the weeks after kicking myself. Because I know it's better to learn less, and really learn it, than to see plenty, and not "get" it. And I start the next year determined to let them learn, regardless of the insane demands. And I give in, because when your job depends on complying with mandates, you do.

Of course, in your case the answer is to give you more time every day by cutting the student/class load. Right now the trend is to increase the load, not decrease it. Good luck!

[PeaceProgProsp]

53. That's crazy. There's no way we should give up on fourth graders

like that.

We should give people more choices about what they want to be and do at ALL stages of life.

[jokerman93]

57. one solution could be

one solution could be to establish a separate board of educational evaluation. Take the power of grading and promotion away from the schools.

In order to progress, a student would have to go before a separate independent board that will evaluate the knowledge and skills acquired by the student during the that year or semester. The determination of the independent board would be based on a national standard that is blind to race and socio economic status.

The teachers and students are held accountable to excel and prepare for the yearly national board.

I guess in a way I'm suggesting a return to something similar to the original Scottish grammar schools, coupled by a semester or yearly full board review of each child. Including interviews and testing for evaluation.

[greekspeak]

58. Radical does not even BEGIN to describe the changes we need

With the current US policies designed to punish instead of help failing schools, the public school system is failing. Public schooling is being set up for a fall by several groups, many of whom back one or more of the following: creationism in science classes, stress only on the "basics," the voucher system, "nonrevisionist" history courses, coerced prayer in school. Education has become a political hot potato in America. And who is suffering? The young people of America, whose moms and dads cannot afford to send them to private school, choose not to send them to parochial schools to become programmed, or do not have the temporal resources at their disposal to home school.

[NewJeffCT]

59. good thread - my ideas

1) If we do year-round schooling, I think there should be several long breaks of at least 2 weeks.

2) More emphasis on math & science. Face it, we have a global economy now, and it will only get more integrated in the future. We still have time to regain our edge in technology and create new technologies for the future.

3) Better salaries for teachers so we can recruit & retain them. I live in Connecticut and we have some excellent public schools (and, yes plenty that need improvement). I don't think it is a coincidence that Conn. also has some of the highest teacher salaries.

4) More modern foreign languages & earlier exposure. I took French in high school. While it is good that I learned it, too many schools still teach French as a main foreign language option. I have nothing against France at all, but if people want us to succeed in the global economy, we should be teaching our children Mandarin, Japanese & German - especially Mandarin Chinese. I assume it is Hindi in India and that would be an option as well. I also did not get to even learn a foreign language until high school - yet most every study on the issue says it is best to start learning a foreign language as early as possible.

[bleedingedge]

62. My Ridiculous, Half-Assed Suggestions

Suggestion Numero Uno, The Suggestion Above All Others, The Dear Suggestion, The Great And Exalted Suggestion:
Create mandatory classes that encourage rational thought, discourse and debate. Every school in America should teach its students how to address, study and speak about issues. And I'm not talking about some ridiculous "Current Affairs" class, either. I'm talking hard discourse, study of logic, etc. By its nature, this would teach students effective research techniques, effective writing and speaking, not to mention how to think and reason effectively. I think this would lead to more students getting socially and politically interested at an early age and also create people who were more capable or rational thought.

2. Abolish non-academic, non-trade extracurricular activities. Don't care if they're self-funded or not. If the NFL wants to breed young players, it can funnel money into after school leagues, etc. Same for other sports. IMO, these enforce and engender the cliques that make school life an utter nightmare for kids and distract from the real focus and goal of educational institutions. I can't think of any non-sport activities that would be affected, but I'm sure they're out there.

3. Abolish any non-academic class time i.e. study halls, etc.

4. In each year of high school students should be required to perform X hours of community service. This could possibly be segmented each year into who/what was being served. In the freshman year, you do any service at all; as a sophomore, you have to do volunteer for the underpriveleged in some way; as a junior you do service within your own community; as a senior, you do service to the school somehow (tutoring, mentoring, etc). My school required volunteer/community service, but only for seniors.

5. Starting with 9th grade, students should be in school from 8am-5pm. I got lucky in that my mom made me get a job ASAP once I could, so I was well-prepared for the real world of 9 hours days once the time came. I don't think a lot of kids are in that boat and are completely unprepared for life after school.

6. Mandatory second language education should begin early, possibly at the same time as English.

7. Uniform dress codes. What you wear is such a low end form of self expression, and one that a lot of underpriveleged kids simply can't afford, that it is not worth protecting. Additionally, mode of dress can often be a polarizing factor among kids. This is probably residue from my own private school days.

8. There is NO suggestion number 8!

9. Teachers should be retained based on efficacy. I realize this would create a massive problem with staffing and potential "churn" at each school but I simply cannot abide by the idea that teachers should exist in an accountability vacuum simply because each kid is different. Every project I take on in my job is different, but I'm ultimately responsible for the success or failure of each one.

10. School funding cannot and should not be provided by property tax dollars as it is now because this makes it virtually impossible for underfunded districts to ever be adequately or overfunded. My idea is probably too close to socialism but it's the only one I've been able to come up with that makes any sense to me:
ALL money that is to go to schools is pooled at the national level. This then divided equally among all 50 states, which then equally divide it among their districts.
The big hurdle is in funding: do we enact a national property tax or something? I don't know. But I think it's absurd that a kid in Whiteyville gets an education that is twice as good as a kid who lives thiry miles up the road in Negrotown.
For those people who bitch and whine about their dollars funding some school 1000 miles away: tough. It's for the kids, who represent the future, and the future doesn't stop at your city limits.
This ensures that all kids, no matter their economic status, have access to the same resources.

11. Flowing from number 10, the establishement of a national office of school curriculum, which would establish national standards for textbooks and courses of study.

12. Abolishment of "achievement testing" as it is now. Personally, I think more credence should be given to teachers in saying whether each student is "proficient". However, testing methods that involved essays would be a decent alternative when it came to judging a student's true proficiency and understanding.

13. Starting somewhere about the 9th grade, mandatory enrollment in one "specialized" class per year. The one flaw in my high school education was that, once I got into college I was very well prepared (having gone to a "college prep" school) but had no idea what I wanted to do. My school hadn't done a very good job in helping me investigate the fields that interested me, so I had to really find out for myself, a quest that ensured my first two years of college would be a waste. I also had a lot of friends who did exactly the opposite: knew long before college what they wanted to do, got to college, found out somewhere along the way they were wrong and wound up in the same boat as me. Mandatory exposure to different occupations might show some people that they aren't cut out for college (like me) and others that college is something they should think about.

These specialized classes could be designed on a "per student" basis. Perhaps somebody interested in plumbing could spend a couple of hours per week with a plumber. Or somebody interested in being a lawyer could work as an unpaid clerk in a law office or something.

14. Abolish all forms of tax abatements that reduce school funding. If there is a "Second Grand Exalted Suggestion", this is it. Tax abatements for business just make my blood boil. If a city wants to give abatements, that's fine. But the business should still have to fund the schools, so you simply say "OK, you can have your abatement, but not 100%. A certain percentage of tax dollars goes to the school kitty, and that you'll still have to pay." This would be in effect even if school funding went to a national pool as I suggested earlier. If this was enacted on a nationwide level, cities couldn't use tax abatements as a way of bidding against each other for business while simultaneously screwing their kids.

Anyhow, that's my thoughts. Living in the State of Ohio, where the current funding system has been judged unconstitutional.

[DemBones DemBones]

72. I think abolishing study halls is one of the worst things ever done

in public schools. Lots of high school kids work, often they work full time, and they're not going to quit work to focus on school. Some are already married and/or parents, or their pay helps support their parents and/or siblings. (Maybe not in your district, but this is true in the Appalachian counties where I taught.) I used to hate having to wake the ones who had worked third shift and come straight to school with no sleep. If they'd had a study hall period, they could have napped there, or studied.

[One_Life_To_Give]

63. What about Culture?

IIRC Asian cultures have a very strong ethic about education. But in many parts of US culture this does not seem to be the case.

[WLKjr]

70. Read What I Have To Say About This

it has been edited to send to newspapers here in OH.

original work here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2172523&mesg_id=2172523

[toledoteamster]

71. I don't understand???

We are having quite a problem in OH. A bunch of school levies just went up in smoke. The right and their media are spinning the issue that the more money we spend on education per student the worse their test results get. They read statistics in 5 year increments over the last 20 years, Isn't there anything we can do to get the NEA fired up to improve the situation? If not, we're going to lose all of our education funding (not really - but it will be drastically reduced)