Did Jesus ever mention homosexuality?

[romantico]

Did he ever even mention it? Also, I'd like to know if a sin is a sin in God's eye, menaing no sin is greater than any other, howcome pre-maritial sex, masterbation,& lying seem to be considered small sins to those fundies who claim all Gays are going to hell where as the other sins are somehow overlooked? If fundies think the gay lifestyle is so bad & they're going to hell, how is it different than a heterosexual guy who gets laid every Saturday night w/ a different woman?

Oh & also, what in the bible does it say your not suppose to but we do anyway. Ya know, can't eat pork, sell your kids as slaves,public stonings,etc. In case your wondering I am debating a fundie & they keep telling me homosexuality is wrong because its in the bible. I'm not looking for links, just any short responses I'm not thinking of would help. By the way, I think I'm making my point because they keep changing the subject.

[freetobegay]

1. No he did not.

[terrya]

2. Nope. Not one single word.

[Connie_Corleone]

3. No.

n/t

[beyurslf]

4. Timothy tells us that women should not learn in public and should

not enter a church without covering their heads. It also tells us that a woman should never hold a position of authority over a man. It is in the New Testament and is one of my personal favorites. :)

[Cleita]

7. Why is this how you think?

Jesus always treated women as equals. I don't think he would have approved that passage.

[beyurslf]

60. Of course I don't think that!

It shows the hypocrisy of any Christian who uses the Bible to tell us how to live today. No one (or almost no one) believes that.

The passage comes from the New Testament. It has as much weight as any of Paul's letters--which is what Christians use to say homosexuality is evil.
I always point this out first to them and wathc them hem and haw about how it is not true. And whatever excuse they come up with is the one I use to say homosexuality is ok.

<sometimes I forget that sarcasm is not as easily seen in a post>

[supernova]

24. Well, it's my least favorite

I'm not gonna play second fiddle to anyone for any earthly reason.

Supernova
Female Church Elder

[DaveFL99]

42. Timothy ?

I didn't know Timothy was a biblical name.

I'm having a Southpark Moment

[lukasahero]

45. Is there a reason

for this post about Timothy speaking of the subservience of women in a thread that asked about Jesus speaking of homosexuality? Did I not get your joke or something?

[OneBlueSky]

5. nope . . . but he was always hangin' out with 12 guys . . .

he wore skirts, and was always talking about "loving your brother" . . . hmmmm . . .

[RodneyCK2]

35. HAHAHAHA..... Didn't he also wear ...

birkenstocks? I could be wrong.


:-)

[styersc]

57. Jesus never mentions Homosexuality

and he did spend all of his time with men and in sandals.

An odd bit of trivia- the only people who Jesus kiss in scripture are all men.

[fob]

6. The first person born was from a man.

Wasn't Eve created from one of Adam's ribs? The "father" of the human race was a homosexual, he was the only man until he gave "birth" to Eve.

[maxsolomon]

30. what about lilith?

wasn't she adam's first wife in many versions of genesis? but she was too uppity & god, umm... i dunno the story.

lilith help needed here...

[Behind the Aegis]

37. 1st wife

Lilith was Adam's first wife. She was created by G-d, much like Adam, from the Earth. She was an EQUAL to Adam. However, when Adam demanded that Lilith "lie beneath and submit to him" she refused. Basically, he tried to rape her! As he was on top of her, she called out G-d's secret name and grew wings and flew off to the West. She later becomes vilified as a vampire like creature that fed off of the blood of newborn males. There is more to the legend and "protections from" Lilith, but this all I can remember off the top of my head!

[Quahog]

72. WTF are you talking about?

Please cite any reference to anyone named Lilith anywhere in the Old or New Testaments.

I'll wait.

:eyes:

[Behind the Aegis]

81. I hope your wait wasn't long!

So, since you asked "WTF was I talking about", here you go: I don't recall saying that Lilith was in the Bible, but was a legend. It is from Hebrew texts that were created before or about the same times as the Old Testament. However, there is a line in Isaiah that makes reference to Lilith.

Isaiah 34:14
"The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there ..." New King James Version

It should be noted that the term "screech owl" is the word "lilith" in Hebrew. There is debate if this refers to the animal or to the legendary first wife of Adam, Lilith. However, Lilith's name does appear in the Talmud, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Zohar. The latter is a collection of books that serve as a commentary on the Talmud.

Also, there is an implication that Eve wasn't the first wife of Adam in Genesis 1:27 — "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them". This comes before the creation of Eve from the rib of Adam in Genesis 2:22.

That being said, the original topic was about Jesus who would have been familiar with the Talmud. I simply responded to someone who asked about Lilith and even stated that I wasn't sure about all of the legend surrounding her.

Now my question to you: Were you trying to be rude? If so, why? I was only trying to provide information to someone who asked. IF I misread your intentions, then all is well. I know that sometimes postings and emails don't always "communicate" their intentions well. I am hoping you were just being inquisitive.

Brightest Blessings!

[Dastard Stepchild]

51. found this...

but I lost the link.. sorry! can't vouch for reliability, but it's a starting point for further inquiry:

The many mistranslations in the King James Bible obscure much of the truth. For example Genesis 1:1-2, "In the beginning, Yahweh created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep." In the Hebrew it says, "Now the earth had become chaotic and empty." (See Rotherham's Emphasized Bible) Some early catastrophe had wrecked the earth, which was not without form and void before that. This was a judgment of Yahweh on earlier civilizations, for their wickedness. Jeremiah 4:23-27 gives a vision of it. "I beheld the earth and lo, it was without form and void; and the heavens and they had no light. I beheld the mountains and lo, they trembled and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld and lo, there was no man and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of Yahweh and by His fierce anger. For thus hath Yahweh said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end." Therefore we do find buried ruins of cities older than Adam and skeletons, which can be dated by the carbon 14 process as many as thousands of years older. The Bible itself tells us about this.

Next the Bible tells us about the creation of men, in the plural in Genesis 1:26-28 saying, "Male and female created He them and Yahweh told these people, Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth". Plenish is an obsolete English word meaning to fill. You cannot replenish what was never plenished, or filled, before. In Genesis chapter 2, we find the Adam (in the singular) created. The Hebrew word aw-dawm, rendered Adam in English, is from a root word meaning to show blood in the face or of a ruddy complexion, a word obviously not applicable to the dark races, which we also know from scientific evidence to be much older than the white race. Bible scholars know Genesis 3:20, "And Adam called his wife's name Eve because she was the mother of all living", is a later interpolation, which was not in the earlier manuscripts. (See Moffatt's translation.)

[TriMetFan]

8. Not one word about it.

If anything Jesus who is the light in my life said to Love One Another.

[TexasSissy]

9. I would cite The 10 Commandments, for one thing.

Regardless of religion, most who use the Bible agree that those are holy rules that all should abide by.

There is not a commandment against homosexuality. In fact, you could point out that one of the commandments is NOT to covet thy neighbors' wife, and that Christians should be comforted in knowing that with gay males, their wives are safe from coveting.

[AntiCoup2K4]

16. Well it does also say "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ass"

:evilgrin:

[TexasSissy]

66. Oops. I forgot about that one.

[noonwitch]

10. Nope-all that comes from either the old testament or Paul

Leviticus calls it an "abomination before the Lord". There is no passage in the Bible anywhere that condemns lesbianism specifically.

[kiahzero]

20. Not quite

Leviticus calls it "ritually unclean." "Abomination" is a really poor translation.

[Terran]

26. And Leviticus is narrow in scope

It only addresses the issue of same-sex male temple prostitution, not general behavior of all men and women. The tribe of Levi was the priestly order, and Leviticus is addressed to them only.

[atreides1]

23. Leviticus

Also says that you shall not eat anything from the sea that does not have fins or scales, it also says that a man cannot shave his beard and that no one can wear clothing woven from two different materials.

So everyone who likes shellfish raise your hands. ;D

[prodigal_green]

31. God Hates Shrimp

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com

[atreides1]

48. I Already Got the T-shirt

But thanks.

[Gore1FL]

73. God Nixed Leviticus in Acts

He told Peter not to call things unclean that he had made clean

[Behind the Aegis]

70. Lesbians are bad too!!

"For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature" (Romans 1:26).

That is the line most often used to forbid lesbian love! Again, like the rest of Paul's ramblings, it was more a comment on "pagan" rituals and not so much about persons of the same sex LOVING one another!

But, since the Bible is not the guide for my life, it is more of a historical side note for me!

Brightest Blessings!

[noonwitch]

80. Paul hated women so much he really didn't need to differentiate

My guess is that he was really ugly and/or deformed and couldn't even pay prostitutes to sleep with him. And as a pharisee convert to christianity, he was too afraid to seek out the sacred prostitutes of the pagan temples who would have had sex with him regardless of his looks.

[LittleApple81]

11. WHY DO THE FUNDIES pick and choose what to use from the Bible and

the New Testament? What is important about Jesus is his message of love. If we followed this precept we would not be in the mess we are in now.

[prodigal_green]

33. Lazy readers

They get halfway through then jump to the end (Revelations) to see how it turns out.

[beyurslf]

61. Please see my above posts too... this was my point with the Timothy

statement. Christians IGNORE the whole book.

[Cleita]

12. Well, some believe Jesus himself was homosexual, which

was acceptable in the Greco Roman world of his time, and sometimes even considered preferable. He speaks of his favorite apostle John as his beloved. One of the reasons I think that there is no mention of this in the gospels is because it was so acceptable.

[Lex]

13. I always like to refer people to this letter.

It was written to "Dr." Laura Schlessinger, who is a radio talkshow host and homophobe.

It points out how many modern Christians pick and choose what they are going to get bent out of shape about in the Bible and exposes the hypocrisy of it.

----------------------------

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1: 9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21 : 7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

--------------------------------

[Beausoleil]

17. Beat me to it, Lex

n/t

[Az_lefty]

14. adultery, but not homosexuality

[Beausoleil]

15. Jesus didn't say

but Leviticus clearly states that both homosexuality and eating shellfish are abominations; which is worse? Maybe Dr. Laura can help out with this and other moral issues of our time:

Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.


Still waiting for the good doctor's response.

[SemperEadem]

38. proving God's inconsistency

" Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging."

If one believes the bible, then God allowed incest in order to populate the earth. He had to--there is no record in their bible of him creating any more than 2 people to populate the earth. So, God was for incest, then he changed his mind--therefore God is not constant.

[DeadHead67]

18. Thou shalt NOT eat any cheeseburgers !!!!!

I am quite serious. It is a violation of Kosher dietary law to mix meat and dairy dishes. I have had Jewish friends who broke dishes after a dinner because a guest requested something that exposed their 'dairy' serving stuff to 'meat' dishes. Ergo: NO CHEESEBURGERS!! No Shrimp, Lobster,(or Owls for that matter)Either!!!These Shitheads are VERY selective about what they read and cite, and conversely DON'T read or cite.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. "Blessed are the cheesemakers?"

"What's so special about the cheesemakers?"

"It refers to any manufacturer of.. dairy products"

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

19. It's also in the bible

that "thou shalt not round the corners of thy head" (get a haircut).
You are wasting your time if you think you can change their minds....
but I appreciate what you are trying to do :)

[LeftHander]

21. Not while he was running around with a bunch of guys....

Who left thier wives...wore robes, long hair and washed each others feet...

[Hobarticus]

22. Never mentioned Hell, either, for that matter.

[greekspeak]

25. Not overtly, at least

Jesus talked in great generalities about morals/values/social issues. While Jesus never specifically mentioned homosexuality as a sin, the Judaism of his time did not exactly have a warm opinion of two men engaging each other sexually. It is, in fact, doubtful that any ancient culture would look approvingly on the way we modern homosexuals conduct our lives. Yes, a plethora of homosexual acts were permissible in most ancient Mediterranean cultures. But the boundaries were closely circumscribed. For instance, the Greeks, just like the Hebrews, did not look fondly on anal sex between two men. Two men could probably not have gotten away with living together as a couple.

"Homosexuality" is a modern concept. While there were people who felt no attraction for the opposite sex, the ancients would not have had little if any more sympathy for such people than the Victorians did.

[Terran]

34. Thanks for the information

I'm fascinated. Could you please provide some links indicating where you obtained these facts? Or are you are a paleoanthropologist specializing in ancient ME cultures, and know all this yourself?

Oh, and what was your point again?

The fact that Jesus is not on record, either "overtly" or covertly, as criticizing homosexuality, tends to indicate, to me, that people didn't have a huge moral issue with it, as it existed, in his time.

[greekspeak]

47. I am not a paleoanthropologist

I am, however, a PhD student specializing in ancient Religions, mainly Christianity and Judsism. I have only been studying and researching the ancient Mediterranean world now for about 10 years. I am hoping this is credential enough to suit you.

I do not have "links." I read these things called "books." I also attend talks called "lectures," in which professors discuss details that are not always readily available to me in print form. Sometimes they let me do these "lectures" myself. I do not do research on the Internet unless I have to. So I guess if you want me to go back and build you a bibliography and get out 10 years of lecture notes, I can do that. It will take a while. I have a lot of books and notes to look through.

[Terran]

50. Ok, sorry for the sarcasm, but

my point was, what you were saying didn't have much to do with the topic. What people in the ancient Middle East thought of homosexual behavior has little to do with how contemporary society interprets the recorded words of Jesus. Nobody was claiming that, because we have no words of Jesus recorded on the subject, the ancient world was a permissive paradise.

[SemperEadem]

41. Hmmm..

'It is, in fact, doubtful that any ancient culture would look approvingly on the way we modern homosexuals conduct our lives."

Read much on ancient Rome?

[greekspeak]

46. As a matter of fact, I have read a few things on ancient Rome

and I have listened carefully to my professors. Roman society could be quite socially conservative, compared to other ancient societies. Laws surviving from Ancient Rome suggest that there were penalties for failing to get married and act properly once done. One could forfeit inheritance. Note, again, I am not saying that Roman society looked down on all same sex sexual relations. But there were limits to what was tolerated. Of course, you get works like Petronius' Satyr icon, which was a handbook on debauchery. But the whole point of that work was sarcastic! Certainly, too, Roman society can be divided into eras, and each one had different tolerances for social propriety. Republican and Christian Rome were both more socially conservative than the Imperial era. The behavior of certain emperors, like Tiberius with his "tadpoles (children)" that nibbled his inner thighs as he swam, underscores this. But even Imperial Rome had limits on what people did sexually with one another.

[AntiCoup2K4]

27. Genesis Chapter 19 (the Sodom & Gommorrah story)

Popular fundie interpretation of this chapter is that God nuked Sodom because a couple of gay guys wanted to have sex with some (presumably male) angels who visited Lot (Abraham's nephew) Incidentally, it was never explained at all what the "Gommorahites" did.

Before the city is destroyed, Lot actually offers to let the troublemakers rape his own daughters. And after the renovation project, the girls decide to get dad drunk and fuck him.

So in other words, homosexuality was bad enough to nuke all of Sodom County, yet rape and incest are completely acceptable??

These are the "family values" according to fundie interpretation of Genesis 19.

However, Ezekiel 16:49 says this about Sodom....

Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

Not a word there about guys doing other guys that I can see.

[DaveFL99]

36. Blow jobs.

I'm betting the "Gommorahites" were into blowjobs or 69

[rockymountaindem]

65. I saw one of those "Mysteries of the Bible" shows on that one time.

The one on A&E, with real scholars (in case you had this confused with some fundie info-mercial).

Anyway, here's what they said. God sent angels to Lot, in order to warn him of the impending disaster. A crowd gathered outside Lot's house demanding that he basically give them the angels for an orgy. This was basically being a bad host on the part of the town residents (I guess it's not polite to demand sex from your guests). The scholars on the show seemed to say it boiled down to being rude rather than hedonistic.

[fa210]

28. Nope. JUst Bush...

[MadHound]

29. No, he didn't, but if I remember correctly, the early church did

I remember about ten years ago that apparently that had found out that either the Naghammadi or Dead Sea scrolls contained a set of marriage vows for homosexual couples to get married with. I read just a brief article on it, and have heard nothing, nada, zip about it since then(no suprise there). Has anyone else ever heard that? I'd be interested in some details if they did.

[Lerkfish]

32. to my knowledge, no....and....

no, jesus never mentions homosexuality, and although it IS mentioned in the new testament, its mentioned by Paul, in regards to temples that were focused on homosexuality as a cult.....which is a very different thing, IMHO.
There may have been one more passage, but again, its the Pauline letters. Paul issued a lot of directives and suggestions that were anachronistic for the present day, and were specific to the churches and the culture as it existed at the time....for example, that it was humiliating for a woman's hair to be cut.

so, if people fixate on these anachronistic cultural mores as teachings of god, they are showing they are Paulists rather than Christians.....nothing wrong with being a Paulist, except that care should be taken not to attempt to superimpose ancient mores over the actual inspired teachings of Paul.

Unfortunately, the fundamentalist christians have certain prejudices and bigotries that they use bits of selected scripture to justify, rather than reading the whole of scripture as a gestalt document. This leads to a warped interpretation of the bible's overall message -- that we are called to love one another and NOT judge one another. In Matthew it clearly states in the sermon on the mount "Judge not, that you be not judged", and many parables deal with the fact that we are not the ones who have been given the authority to judge each other, but rather to minister to each other....there's the parable of the man who owed a great debt to a powerful person. The leader calls the debtor to him and, since he had no way to pay the debt, simply forgave it. THEN that debtor goes and finds someone who only owes him pennies, and tries to force that person to pay or go to prison. The leader finds out about it and upbraids the debtor for not learning the lesson of forgiveness.
There are other examples in the life of Jesus...such as saying "he who is without sin should cast the first stone" when a group of overrighteous people wanted to stone a prostitute.

HOWEVER, what I've reported above should not be construed that I believe homosexuality is a sin. As I've grown older, and the more gay people I've come in contact with, the more I cannot believe it a sin to love another person. But, if the fundamentalists believe to be gay is a sin, EVEN SO, they have no right to sit in judgement of that person. They like to get around this by the flimsy loophole " oh, but I love the sinner and hate the sin"....but that really is not born out by their attitudes. Their opposition to gay marriage is not loving the "sinner".

The message of Jesus, if you could break it down to a nutshell is this: Love thy neighbor as thyself....essentially the golden rule. Watch the way fundamentalists regard homosexuals, and judge for yourself: is it out of love that they do these things, or hatred and bigotry? Examine the fruits of their piety...does it lead to salvation or does it allow prejudice to fester?

The world is a hard place, in my opinion, ANY person who is willing to commit themselves to another person out of love is a GOOD thing.

[hippywife]

55. Exactly

The message of Jesus, if you could break it down to a nutshell is this: Love thy neighbor as thyself....essentially the golden rule. Watch the way fundamentalists regard homosexuals, and judge for yourself: is it out of love that they do these things, or hatred and bigotry? Examine the fruits of their piety...does it lead to salvation or does it allow prejudice to fester?


This is what I keep pointing out to the religious right:

Matt, 22:36ff~

"Teacher, what is the great commandment in the Law?"

And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind."

"This is the great and foremost commandment."

"The second is like it, 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."



He also says in Matt. 5 that he came to fulfill the law. The Greek word for fulfill is pleroo: to make replete or to satisfy. Which he defines in Matt. 7:12:

"Therefore, however you want people to treat you, so treat them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

He called his followers to go throughout the world and spread the good news to people, not to cram it down their throats to make them accept it. That is for them to decide in their own hearts. He called for his followers to love the world, not conquer it with force, hate, and blood in his name.

He makes it very clear in Revelation 3:20:

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. Whoever hears me, I will come in to him, and dine with him, and he with me."

That's an invitation, not an edict. He doesn't say I bust down the door and make you entertain me or partake of what I have to offer. He calls on those who believe his teachings to show the world love, not enmity. His teachings were always about love and putting it into actions.

He reserved his harshest words for the religious leaders of the day who, rather than show them kindness and care for their woes, pushed the letter of the law on the people, but did as they wished in private:

Matt. 23:27ff~

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like white-washed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanliness."

"Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."

[Quahog]

75. Thank you, Lerkfish and Hippywife

Nice to read a post in a Jesus thread that's informed by some knowledge of what He actually said and did in His life, rather than the speculation and misinterpretation that seems so rampant on both sides of the Christian debate.

Jesus completed the Law, and by so doing rendered much of the OT irrelevant. There's a reason why Christians do not sacrifice spotless lambs on the altar of the Lord. No longer needed.

[Lerkfish]

79. you're more than welcome...

I have often told people that Jesus was the ultimate liberal.

:)

[hippywife]

83. You are welcome.

I enjoy setting the record straight about Jesus, especially to the religious right. Anyone who proclaims himself a Christian yet advocates hatred is not a follower of Christ's teachings.

There is religion and there are the words of Christ. Most often they do not agree. ;)

[kayell]

39. He may have - in this passage on eunuchs

the term "natural eunuchs" was apparently used at that time for gays and other groups of people who did not procreate for whatever reason.

KJV Matthew 19:12
12. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

http://www.mccchurch.org/Rstory2/marriage.htm

[malatesta1137]

40. Jesus didn't mention homosexuality at all.

he practiced it. Jesus was gay. Or why didn't he ever have intercourse with a woman, and why didn't he get married? and why oh why was he so soft and 'human'? I bet he was whistling show tunes when walking from gathering to gathering.

[Behind the Aegis]

43. I like you, you like me...HOMO-SEX-U-AL-ITY!

Whereas Jesus never mentioned homosexuality (or men with men and women with men...as the term 'homosexual' did not enter our language until 1889), it always has fascinated me that Christians continue to bash gays. Consider that most Christians will say the New Testament "invalidates" the Old Testament which is why they do not follow the Levitican Codes, yet they continue to use the "mankind shall not lieth with mankind as it is unclean and a sin and the blood of both shall wash over them." Also, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is in the Old Testament and, if read clearly, it is about the cities lack of hospitality to the "angels." To be inhospitable to strangers is still a big 'no-no' in the Middle East (oddly enough). It WASN'T about the townspeople wanting some fresh tail!!!

As for the New Testament, the admonitions of Paul in his letters to Rome dealt more with his seeing homosexuality as being tied closely to pagan rituals, therefore, those engaged in this activity were obviously breaking the "one G-d only" commandment!!

I am sure Jesus, G-d, and other deities cry at what is done in their names!!

[genius]

44. No.

[amazona]

49. I thought he said James was his beloved

It has been awhile since Sunday School days but I was under the impression that God was pretty open on the topic -- David and Jonathan, Jesus and James. The Presbyterian Church supposedly went over the Gospels a few years back and couldn't find anything in the New Testament that made homosexuality a sin.

[AntiCoup2K4]

58. James was Jesus' half brother. I doubt anything was going on there.

I believe you are thinking of the apostle John, who writes of himself in the third person as "the disciple Jesus loved". I'm not sure about that one in any case, but you're definitely correct about David and Jonathan whose love was "greater than the love of women". There's a reason Saul was trying to kill David and it wasn't because Samuel had already decreed him the future King.

[bobbieinok]

52. check out "Letter to Louise"

....

decided to give serious study to homosexuality and what the Bible says about it. Thank God! There was so much to learn about gays and lesbians--and the Bible--that I am so glad to have come to know. It distresses me, though, to realize that most others of our church people do not know these facts about homosexuality and what the Bible really says, and that their thinking, like my previous concept, is based on suppositions, not facts, and on feelings, which, of course, have no place in a thoughtful consideration of facts.



I am now convinced that the presumption that you and your brother have about his condemnation is unjustified. I have written out what I believe is clearly a correct interpretation of pertinent Biblical passages; it is Appendix B to this letter. A correct interpretation is dependent on following dependable principles of interpretation, so I discuss these principles in Appendix A. In the body of the letter I have put the convictions I have come to into ten statements that I believe you and I and your brother and our church families must come to understand about homosexuality and about gays and lesbians. But I know some will never accept them, so I have something I want to say to those people; I have made it Appendix C.

much more.....


http://www.godmademegay.com/Letter.htm

[TrogL]

53. Just go to my website

http://members.shaw.ca/trogl

[lottie244]

54. The problem is that man wrote the Bible...not God.

the writings may have been God-inspired but man wrote what was convenient for him at the time like suggesting that God selected one group of people over another. The Talmud rabbis wrote most of what we interpret as old-testament laws, many of which were adapted from anciet Egyptian, Akkaidian, and Sumarian writings which preceded the Torah and Holy Bible by some 400-600 years. There is no doubt in my mind that God, the Creator is real, as real as your spirit will accept. Everyone has within a spirit that discerns good and evil, fair and unfair, justice, mercy, kindness etc. It's what we do with our understanding that makes us godly or ungodly (not religious). There are as many ungodly people among the so-called chosen people, or Christians, or Muslims, as in any other group. There are also "godly" people within all these groups. GOD IS. But GOD ISN't what many people make GOD out to be.

[Elginoid]

56. as far as disciples were concerned, it was "don't ask, don't tell"...

from what i understand of the bibble...

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SuffragetteSal]

63. Easy to find - look it up

David loved Jonathan more than his 1000 wives...

It's there...you can find it yourself. Nope but it wasn't said by Jesus.

[CaTeacher]

67. hmmm

sounds gay to me!

[VoteDemocratic2004]

64. I thought that Jesus was gay

:shrug:

[Bucky]

69. Only gay in the colloquial sense of loving humanity and caring about us

that's just so gay

[Djinn]

68. what the bible says

is actually kind of irrelevant, there is NO way to "follow the Bible" there are that many contradictions within it it'd be impossible.

People act like the Bible was written in a vacuum - being written by men NOT God (if there's one) who held the values, knowledge and social mores at the time - it reflects those things.

[TeacherCreature]

71. no

[southernleftylady]

74. Doesn't the bible say something about not lying down with another man?

or something like that?
sorry i am NOT a religious person.. i just know i have had discussions with fundies and i know that they say that all the time

[Zynx]

77. That had nothing to do with Jesus. I believe that was in the OT.

[southernleftylady]

78. oh ok sorrybut isnt the bible supose to be all of what jesus said?

lol ok how ignorant do i look on this subject? lol (dont answer that )

[Uzybone]

84. LOL...its ok

Actually Jesus words in the Bible probably make up less than 1% of the entire book. Most of the Bible is written, said and composed by man.

[auburngrad82]

76. Homosexuality in the Bible

1 Samuel 18:1-4

"And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house. Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle."

1 Samuel 20:41-42

"And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded. And Jonathan said to David, go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the LORD, saying, the LORD be between me and thee, and between my seed and thy seed for ever. And he arose and departed: and Jonathan went into the city.

These two verses sure make it look as if David and Jonathan had a thing for each other.

[hippywife]

82. Jonathan was the son of Saul

David ministered to Saul in his affliction and became his armor-bearer. Jonathan had fought the Philistines and David killed Goliath, their champion. Jonathan and David were as brothers and as brothers in arms just as many veterans consider one another.

The Hebrew for "love" in these verses is ahab or aheb: to have affection for (sexuallly or otherwise), love, like, or friend.