Ever wonder what the Freepers & Right-wing conservatives want for the US?

[Pachamama]

Well here's a sampling and you can also provide me with the help needed with a persistent Freeper that spews it faster than I can respond to his rantings....This person is a college mate that is part of a group of friends on an email discussion thread. I normally wouldn't even pay any attention to a person like this and there is little "reasoning" with him, however there are several other people on the thread that have declared that they are undecided on the election and whom to vote for....their primary reason for being "undecided" is their fear of terrorism. I would appreciate assistance and suggestions for how to best respond. This Freeper friend can't stop his rantings and in one email to me wrote the following:

"First of all, I have repeatedly said that this admin is not far enough right for me"

I responded with the following question:

What would be considered "right" enough for you? Reproductive rights for women be controlled by the state, that women are forced breeders and handmaids, we are all forced to be attending "your" church and buying into the "vision" that you and the rest of the hate-filled and fear mongering nutwings think we should? All while invading "pre-emptively" any Nation that disagrees with us or we deem to be a threat (on evidence that we tell people to trust us is there?). That American citizens without due process can be arrested without charges and declared "enemy combatants" and held without the right to meeting with an attorney? That torture is acceptable if its a means to getting information, human rights be damned? That instead of conservation and alternative energy sources, we just drill and harm the environment till its all sucked out and global climate change has destroyed our planet, making it impossible for humans to survive? That pesticides and chemicals continue to be dumped into our environment and are killing our ecology and causing cancer and disease in our children, but that its okay because it makes American Industry rich?

Care to elaborate there for all of us on what you think? I'm sure it will be very interesting to hear what you mean as being "right" enough....Scary, scary, scary...your rhetoric is starting to get so delusional and frightening....your vision of a better world is hell...

His Answer:
I believe, like your man Kerry, that life begins at conception. The choice being made by women to abort their babies is something that I do not believe should be legal. So you agree w/Kerry, and will wait to be attacked before you respond? We call this the Neville Chamberlain approach. The evidence was there for Clinton, Kerry and many other Dems to see before they voted to give Bush the right to use force when he saw fit. As a matter of fact your man Kerry just agreed that he would have given Bush the right to preemptive force, even if he knew there were no WMD's. Are you paying attention, or do you think and believe this was purely "posturing" by your man Kerry. Yes, I believe that American citizens without due process can be arrested without charges and declared "enemy combatants" and held without the right to meeting with an attorney if they are suspected of collaborating w/terrorists. It's not like we're FDR and rounding up all the Japs to put into concentration camps. Torture is most definitely acceptable as a means to getting information, human rights be damned, especially if it saves American lives - Even liberals.

Is Alaska ruined? Is the coast of CA ruined? There are many places where oil is being extracted, and you probably don't even notice it. They can take can take 1-2m bbl per day from ANWR, w/a drilling footprint no bigger than Dulles airport. That's in an area the size of Georgia. making it impossible for humans to survive? Please. Did you just get back from the Day After Tomorrow, or a GOOOOORE speech? That pesticides and chemicals continue to be dumped into our environment and are killing our ecology and causing cancer and disease in our children- (prove it) You really are a caricature of everything that is goofy about liberals.

My vision is of a US w/out a massive Federal Govt. The tax rate is a flat 15% (4 pts higher than in Russia), no teacher union monopoly on education, a missile defense system to protect us from rogue nukes, air tight security on our borders, open and tariff free trading w/everyone that will lower their tariffs for our goods, no more UN, rather we start a new intl org w/only countries that have democratically elected govts w/capitalist economies, a color blind society w/no racial preferences, in which people are judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin, all welfare privatized, almost all federal land sold, or just a small portion left in private trusts, a balanced budget amendment to the constitution, line item vetoes for the pres, defund the NEA and NPR, get rid of the Energy Dept, privatize the TSA like Israel has done, stop funding for Egypt, remove US troops from most of Europe, except those nations that support us w/their own troops, no abortion, death penalty for all murderers and rapists, an amendment outlawing same sex marriage, courts that stick to the what the Constitution says, and I can't think of anything else right now.

The anger, as I explained in a previous e-mail, is from the frustration w/the liberal's inability to come to terms w/the real and present danger of terrorism. My belief is that you are falling into the same mindset that prevailed pre-9/11, because to admit the real danger would also lead to your loss of support for Kerry. I believe this because many liberals are now figuring out that Kerry is a wuss. I empathize w/Churchill's contempt for the Labor Party, and his own Conservatives, pre WWII.

____________

Suggestions DUers?

[amazona]

1. i wouldn't worry about responding to obviously insane people

Anyone who thinks Kerry, who rescued a soldier under fire in Vietnam, is a "wuss" and plans to vote for the man whose toughest wartime duty was getting a dental exam is a lost cause. I think I would leave one post pointing out Kerry's strength and documented heroism and judgment, and then it would be time to put my time to more productive matters. So my suggestion is: Block the email addresses from these losers and get involved in a voter registration drive. Or even if you're shy -- I am -- make a pledge to get just one new Democratic voter registered. I have and it's far more gratifying than arguing with hopeless ninnies. It just tears you down to be around negative influences all the time. We have to be willing to give up spending our energy on losers and time wasters.

[Selwynn]

2. Yes I have one - don't talk down to him.

The guy can obviously articulate a coherant thought and knows why he believes what he believes.

We disagree with him sure, but if you go in there and start name calling him or acting irrational or making illogical agruments, you are going to look stupid and he is going to look right.

So I would suggest responding, only when you have a real opportunity to do it with a lot of thought...

[kiahzero]

13. He deserves talking down to

Selwynn: don't get sucked in by the relatively civil delivery - this guy is a crackpot.

Here's what I would say:

So you agree w/Kerry, and will wait to be attacked before you respond? We call this the Neville Chamberlain approach. The evidence was there for Clinton, Kerry and many other Dems to see before they voted to give Bush the right to use force when he saw fit. As a matter of fact your man Kerry just agreed that he would have given Bush the right to preemptive force, even if he knew there were no WMD's.

Not quite. First, al Qaeda, then Iraq.

The Clinton Administration did not "wait to be attacked" to respond - it pushed and pushed Congress to approve more money for fighting terrorism, but the Republicans blocked these moves.

On Iraq, the problem was NOT the IWR, the problem was Bush's use of it. Bush was only supposed to go to war as a last resort. He exaggerated the evidence after the IWR was passed to justify that decision, pulling the inspectors out before they could ascertain that there were no weapons. Kerry's only mistake was trusting Bush.

Yes, I believe that American citizens without due process can be arrested without charges and declared "enemy combatants" and held without the right to meeting with an attorney if they are suspected of collaborating w/terrorists. It's not like we're FDR and rounding up all the Japs to put into concentration camps. Torture is most definitely acceptable as a means to getting information, human rights be damned, especially if it saves American lives - Even liberals.

What evidentiary standard does this "suspicion" require? How are these people to be treated? How are they to defend themselves against the charges if they are not allowed to consult with an attorney? How does that synch with the Sixth Amendment?

You seem to hate our freedoms, since you're so gung-ho on eroding them - maybe you're a terrorist! I guess since I suspect you, that's good enough, right?

About torture: clearly you don't know what you're talking about, because if you did, you would know that research on torture demonstrates that those subjected to it generally will just say whatever they think their torturers want to hear. Torture does not provide meaningful information, and certainly not to the level necessary to justify the negative repercussions.

Additionally: why are liberals somehow less deserving of being saved than other Americans? Do you really think that liberals are somehow less deserving of live than others?

Is Alaska ruined? Is the coast of CA ruined? There are many places where oil is being extracted, and you probably don't even notice it. They can take can take 1-2m bbl per day from ANWR, w/a drilling footprint no bigger than Dulles airport. That's in an area the size of Georgia. making it impossible for humans to survive? Please. Did you just get back from the Day After Tomorrow, or a GOOOOORE speech? That pesticides and chemicals continue to be dumped into our environment and are killing our ecology and causing cancer and disease in our children- (prove it) You really are a caricature of everything that is goofy about liberals.

Nice straw man. The point was not that drilling in ANWR alone would make the planet uninhabitable. The point was this attitude - "We need more energy? OK, let's just drill some more oil!" would eventually result in drastic consequences if left unchecked. Of course, there is a natural check in place - the finite amount of oil. Small reassurance, since we don't have anything to replace oil at this point.

As for your laughing off the idea of pesticides causing cancer:
http://seer.cancer.gov/publications/raterisk/risks99.html

----

Just because he's more articulate than your average freeper doesn't mean he's not a fucktard.

[Selwynn]

18. You attitude is more than predictable.

Don't even bother responding at all to him. What is the point?

[kiahzero]

19. I did respond

Giving his opinions more respect than they deserve isn't going to sway him, because he won't be swayed. The rebuttal would be more for the others on the group who are undecided.

His vision for America is either ignorant or deliberately mean-spirited; perhaps I'm being overly judgemental, but I doubt that he's open-minded enough to change his mind when challenged.

[Ducks In A Row]

3. ask them how they can vote for a man...

who outs an undercover al-qeada agent just to justify phony terror alerts.

who outs cia agents to get revenge on their family

who punishes DAs who complain when Asscrofts goons scew up case against terror suspects, and said suspects have to be let go.

ask them how Bush is making us safer?

[patdem]

4. I cannot understand people who hate the 50's and 60's and love the 30's

and 20's?? The middle class was created because of social liberalism..if it was up the the republicans we would be more like Haiti, the poor would be in abject poverty, and the rest would be rich without taxes on their capital.

Why do republicans HATE America????

[NC_Nurse]

5. What a wack job!

He has LOST CAUSE and DELETE written all over him.

Don't waste time and energy on him, let what goes around comes around take care of him!

:crazy:

[Ducks In A Row]

6. he's drunk on the kool-aid

there not much to be done now

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. Here's some suggestions:

I understand your opinions on woman's right to control their own bodies is simply that-your opinion. I'm curious, however-do you walk your talk? How many unwanted babies have you adopted? If you cannot adopt, how many orphanages do you support monetarily?

I do not understand why you endorse the Bush Doctrine of pre-emption. Could you please cite other times in American history when this doctrine has been used?

Have you read the Constitution of the United States? If so, how in the world can you say that it is ok to ignore due process and the right to a fair and speedy trial? Please remember that this isn't the first time our nation has been threatened. If the Constitution could be followed during the Civil War, I think it should be followed now.

I take it you don't agree with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. How far do you think we should go with torture and holding people? Who should decide who should be held, who should be tortured? Would you still think these were good things to do if a Democrat (say Bill Clinton) were in office?



Sorry, this person is very lost and deluded. To want to protect fetuses and show such distain for viable human beings is something I've never understood. One thing-don't get into a discussion about religion with this creature. I've made that mistake with "Christians" who informed me that Jesus was God and wanted everyone who didn't fall down and worship him to be killed.

Basically, keep your cool, and ask him questions. Show politeness and respect as far as you can, because his crassness will show even more in contrast, which has got to influence your undecided voter friends.

[Pachamama]

12. Good ideas! I'll ask these questions...and yes, he is lost and deluded

...but the scary thing is there are lots like him out there....they are called Bu$h's base....

[tech3149]

8. regarding his response to reproductive rights

He bases his argument on belief. It's easy for people to believe a lot of things that have no basis in fact. I've had arguments with people citing convoluted "evidence" to support their beliefs, but it still comes down to nothing more than belief. One of the founding principles of our country was to provide for religious freedom. That requires the laws of our country not impose the beliefs of one faith on those that follow another.

[Pachamama]

11. His Beliefs are what he think all of us should believe...

and if we do as he believes, then we can all live happily ever after...

I always thought that people with these beliefs were living in a gated barbed-wired ranch with guns and dogs and only leaving to go to church. Sadly, here is a college educated individual who was surrounded by roommates and friends who were all liberal, multi-cultural and racial and including one friend whose mother was a well-known congressperson. How someone like this came to "believing" such things is beyond me....His favorite people to quote are Man Coulter, Rush and O'Lielly...

:scared:

[tech3149]

27. That say's it all

He's been taken in by the ultimate propagandists. There may be some psychological issues that explain the vulnerability, but I'm not prepared to address that.

[fob]

9. Good job. So far you got him to agree at least one thing in common with

Kerry and to lay out his "vision" of how things should be set up. Now you need to go through each item point by point and ask him to follow it all the way through. Not only how he wuold set up the geovernment but what society would it generate.

Like this:

Yes, I believe that American citizens without due process can be arrested without charges and declared "enemy combatants" and held without the right to meeting with an attorney if they are suspected of collaborating w/terrorists

Ok, then WHO gets to suspect persons of "collaborating"? WHO gets to declare "enemy combatant" status? WHO defines "Terrorist"? (One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter) How does society function under this state of affairs? How is this different than a dictatorship? How do you provide for oversight of these powers?


I agree with the other poster that with this guy it's best to keep it civil and use solid questions, no rhetoric. Let him explain his stance to YOU and make sure it's a reply all situation. You can win over the undecideds by taking this guy apart, IMO.


I wish you success.

[Pachamama]

10. Excellent suggestion of how to handle this-Let him dig his own hole

- Ask Questions & make him reply...thanks...I agree that this is the best way to handle him and get him to explain his stance and then let the undecided (two of which are women) decide which candidate has a better "vision" for the world...

[fob]

16. And be sure to connect him to Kerry when he is in agreement

Subtly at first, such as; Well that's a lot to go over but I was surprised that you agree with Kerry on the conception issue, anyway...

[keyzersoze13]

14. Some Ideas

I have a friend who is very similar to this guy. Whenever politics comes up, even incidentally, we always come close to killing each other. Here's some places where I might be able to help you:

On abortion/death penalty:
How can they be anti-choice, and yet support the death penalty? They are all for protecting fetuses, but not people? This is a hypocritical view. No, it is not on our side, because we don't think a fetus and a person are the same thing. However, conservatives do. So basically, your friend is okay with murder in some cases, but not others.

Preemptive attacks:
Does he really think Churchill would approve of the War in Iraq? Explain to your friends that the Iraq was not even preemptive, they didn't have the ability to attack us! We might as well attack Pulau, they posed the same threat. The world is not safer now that we invaded Iraq, we only gave motivation to a new generation of terrorists.

Due Process:
Due process is in the Constitution, regardless of what he would like it to be, and we must follow it, or we cheapen the entire document. It would be easier for white guys without the 13th Amendment, forbidding slavery. I'd like things much better without Amendment 2. We can't undermine one part of the Constitution without undermining the whole thing. Additionally, how would you like to be arrested w/o any idea of what you did wrong and detained and tortured? Perhaps you'd want your country to invade America to premptively stop this practice?

Environment:
Fortunately, my friend is a real science guy, so I don't have to argue with him on this point. I'd check on bushgreenwatch.org for the scientific background for such things, because, while I know what Bush does to the environment, I can't cite specific scientific data, and I don't really think anyone can. However, it has been proven that carbon dioxide emissions have caused the temperature of the Earth to increase, and we are getting closer and closer to Ice Age II. And there is no need to rip up our natural wonders for corporate greed, when we can make up better ways of running cars. Finally, say that the best way to decrease dependence on foreign oil is to decrease our dependence on ALL oil. Make it a security thing.

Gay marriage:
Let's see, this guy wants LESS goverment, yet supports an Amendment allowing the government to regulate marriage? Something's not quite right there. My favorite argument is that it violates separation of church and state for the government to involve itself in marriage, a religious practice, but we know how the right wing gets when we bring that up.

As for things like welfare and the Dems inability to deal with terror, just respond with the truth. Welfare as it is right now isn't working, the government must help the people for the people to be helped, and that the Dems support security. We just like to keep people's jobs (i.e. not the stupid-ass Homeland Security bill Bush pushed through in 2002, then used against Democrats in the midterms) and ways to pay for it (Kerry's vote on the 87 billion dollars).

Hang this Hatriot on his own words, things like "courts that stick to the what the Constitution says" and remember, the facts are on your side, and they know it.

[newyawker99]

15. Hi keyzersoze13!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[keyzersoze13]

17. Thanks

Thanks man, I've been reading the forum for a couple weeks, and its good to finally join it.

[dorktv]

20. You know, he said something interesting:

a color blind society w/no racial preferences, in which people are judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin


Start with agreeing with him on this and then saying I totally agree that terrorist should be stop AND here is my plan...

[Swamp Rat]

21. Good for you Pachamama!

I'm glad you are concerned about the undecided folks that are vulnerable to his rhetoric. When you get tired of dealing with this nut, just leave a few evenly spaced emails for all to see that say, "so and so is insane and don't listen to him any more." Well, you don't have to call him insane but he IS delusional. Give them a link to Democratic Underground and explain to them the significance of this board. Challenge them to come here and learn more, only to return armed with new facts/knowledge. Then see how the political debates take shape. Once they are better informed, they will see how this freepazoid has been totally brainwashed.

[Pachamama]

23. I've thought of inviting the "group" to move the conversations to the DU

This guy wouldn't last too long on the DU...the alerts would be going so quicly and he'd be tombstoned in a moment....

Hey - here's a thought! I can see if the DU will open up a thread for "Freepers" to challenge and have debates on the DU...Wouldn't that be fun? We could have a field day there...the Freepers would be welcome to join in and imagine the answers and debates going on...wow! I'd volunteer this guy to be the first "guest" and I'd probably be laughing so hard with the wit on this forum and board that I'd be snorting....

Yeah, he is delusional and its scary to think that at one time he was a nice college guy that hung out with the whole group...Now he's a middle-aged guy in Michigan who hates liberals and fears the terrorists and thinks that the liberals are pro-terrorism....the undecided friends in our group are slowly seeing how nuts this freepazoid is, but they really do buy into the "Fear" and "Terrorism" bit....and the Bush administration knows that....

[Swamp Rat]

24. Please invite your undecided friends to DU

This freepy guy will probably show up, get tombstoned, and then return to your group to report about those nasty libruls. Maybe if your other friends see how DUers handle him, that will reinforce their growing belief that he is indeed a nutcase and part of the whole problem. Does he belong to one of those RW militia groups?

[Pachamama]

25. He's in Michigan...wouldn't surprise me if he was in a Militia....

But I should invite the undecided ones to join the DU...they might really like it and learn a lot....

[drdtroit]

22. There's no rational response to

an irrational person. He obviously has a very tiny penis.

[Zorra]

26. This poor fellow is obviously ignorant and poorly educated.

Another glaring result of Reagan era cuts in education funding.

Suggestion?

Teaching this person to walk on two legs would be a great first step in teaching him how to be human.

This may sound harsh but eventually this loser may actually get laid once he learns to walk upright.

[Yavin4]

28. He's A Snot-Nosed College Kid With No Life Experiences of His Own

When he is freezing his ass off in the mountains of Iran while being shot at from all directions, then he'll reconsider his positions.

[leesa]

29. Ask him about the biblical passages that clearly state a fetus

is of lesser value than the mother.
Also, ask him how many of the unwanted children that will be born when he and his foolish beliefs do away with abortion and birth control he is willing to take into his home to raise? This is not the year zero and there are waaaaay too many people on the planet now. It's time for him to enter THIS milleniae.

[Pachamama]

32. I'd love those quotes if you had them...

Always fun to use quotes from the bible to rebutt bible thumpers...

[young_at_heart]

30. You said the "magic" word.....Terrorism

Be prepared for lots and lots of terrorism between now and the election, since that is the only thing Bush has going for him. Rove, Cheney and the Heritage Foundation are working overtime to convince those undecideds that they NEED Bush because his terrorism experience is so great!

[LeftHander]

31. Ask him what he thought prior to 911....

Then ask him what if 911 was staged by a conspiracy of military industrial capitalists using a manufactured villian with the intent to throw the U.S. public into a panic and allow a handful to strip the treasury of billions.

Ask him to remove his idelogical googles he sees the world through and to look objectivly at the situation.

Point out that we have:

A unelected President who was granted the Presidency because of a halted recount of the votes in a state who his Brother was governor and State campaign chairman.

A President who's father was head of the CIA, Vice President and President and Executive for Dresser and advisor and major investor in the Carlyle Group, an organization that has profited greatly from war in Iraq.

A president who is pushing to remove the estate tax permanently so he personally stands to gain millions from his father. Money made on the deaths of thousands in Iraq.

A Vice President who was CEO of the largest service provider to the military. Halliburton and Kellog, Brown and Root. Who was fined 1.2 million dollars for selling nuclear technology to Syria in 1998 while under Cheney leadership. Cheney who himself has stated that trade barriers to banned countries was bad for business. Now while Vice President Cheney's former company suddenly is awarded no-bid contracts that meant billions in revenue from a long protracted dirty war.

Halliburton a company whose stock has tripled since July of 2002. About the time Dick Cheney began claiming Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and was going to use these against the region and sell to terrorists.

Ask him to comment on these items and ask himself if America is the right track, is Bush really working for him now...? Ask him if he realizes he is in the far right minority who have enabled corporate weasels like Bush and Cheney to rape this great country leaving it a low-class world bully that garners revulsion more than reverance while skipping away with the spoils of war in the form of a family fortune. A fortune big enough to ensure the Bush family stays in power for years to come.

Ask him to seek out the details himself. It is easy enough he just has to look and he will see that even though he is narrow conervative even his awful political choices are not being served by the crooks in office now. If he refuses then call him a coward. he is afraid of the truth and to crawl away and stop wasting thinking people's time on his idiotic tripe.

[sadiesworld]

33. A few thoughts:

Should there be paper trails for voting machines in the democratic countries he wants to invite to his "new" UN?

Doesn't it seem that the more we privatize, the more we pay? He may want to take a look at some of the figures from the Iraq War.

The rethugs have had complete contol of the government since 9/11, if they were interested in protecting our borders why haven't they done so?

Who was the last prez to balance budgets?

Does it make any difference whether or not the missile defense system works?

Does it bother him that * (lying about the cost) pushed through a massive drug benefit that primarily benefits drug-makers? Does he have any thoughts on corporate welfare in general?

If * is so interested in catching terrorists why does he leak agents' names thereby destroying ongoing investigations? Why does he continue to allow suspects to leave the country? Why is his administration withholding evidence and throwing up roadblocks making prosecution of these cases so difficult?

I wouldn't bother so much w/ the social issues, he doesn't strike me as a fundie. He wants to hear about $ and war/terror.