Aug. 29, what if 300,000 people just decided to go to Central Park?

[vincenzo]

Just asking.

[htuttle]

1. Q: Where do 300,000 people assemble in a group?

A: Anywhere they want to.

:)

[ContraBass Black]

2. And then the riot police assemble right beside them.

Be ready for strong-arm tactics.

[prodigal_green]

3. Police & Fire Dept's threatening to go on strike

so I doubt they'd really be into harrassing protestors.

[Habibi]

5. Are they really?

Ooooh. So what, then: the National Guard?

My husband (well, he will be by then!) and I will be in NYC on the 29th. However, after all the bad news about the West Side hwy location, I don't think we'll make it to the rally. The march, you betcha.

I'm glad UFPJ has rejected that site.

[prodigal_green]

9. Yes, they are considering it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x741235

National Guard? They're all in Baghdad. Come to think of it, they'd probably get a better reception there. Maybe they should consider relocating the RNC.

[Habibi]

20. Someone in the thread you reference

suggests that the Republicans will therefore hire their own security force.

That's fricking scary. No accountability whatsoevery.

Ah, what the hell. I'm going.

[SoDesuKa]

12. Harassing Protesters

Cops will come in on their day off to crack hippie skulls.

[Habibi]

22. My impression of NYC cops

is that they're pretty reasonable, think for themselves, and aren't going to let things get out of hand, on any side.

I could be mistaken.

[rlev1223]

24. Unfortunately

Republicans are quietly hoping for a big confrontation, the more violent the better. Their whole theme is that they represent the "heart" of America, and all of these looney out-of-the-mainstream protesters -- you know, Kerry supporters --- could use a little ass-kicking anyway. Nixon
taught his party well.

The satisfaction of taking over the park or venting a million reasonable frustrations would be seriously outweighed by the ensuing TV pictures...America's Choice: Calm, in-control Monkey Man or 500,000 lawbreaking Lords of the Flies....many probably Gay, too!

And the media will only cover the pictures. Better to chill.

[Habibi]

25. I'm not advocating a hostile takeover

of Central Park. I'm just replying to someone who thinks the NYC cops would let themselves get out of control. I don't think they would.

I don't think we would, either. I think the disruptors would be dealt with handily. It could work out all right.

I think I am going to wander in the direction of Central Park that day. As an American, and as a tourist, I would really like to see one of the most famous parks in the country. Where I live, we also have a Frederick Law Olmsted-designed city park. It would be so cool to check out some of his other works.

[Hutzpa]

38. I saw once where the police disguise themselves as protesters and

start a riot just so they can have their way. I think it happened in Miami. Not sure when though, so folks watch out for over excited souls out there. They are very cunning.

[Hekate]

44. You're thinking of COINTELPRO in the 1960s and '70s

Google for "history of COINTELPRO" and be prepared for an eye-opener. In the name of national security (sound familiar?) the FBI under Hoover sent agents to infiltrate civil rights and anti-war groups. Since it was not enough to simply spy on their fellow Americans, some of the agents actively suggested or provoked violence and/or other illegal activities. I don't include civil disobedience in this -- that was Martin Luther King's honorable nonviolent tactic.

This wretched piece of history is the reason that from the outset of our current protest movement I have been preaching "Be clear on your goals, know the probable consequences of your actions, know your companions, and be very wary of ANYone who talks up breaking the law during your meetings or tries to whip up violence out of the anger of marches and rallies."

MLK and his followers practiced civil disobedience in the full knowledge of the consequences of their actions. They literally practiced and role-played for months before beginning. They were physically attacked, jailed, some of them were killed -- they never retaliated -- and ultimately, they won against Jim Crow laws and up-front racism. They really did make a difference.

But there were some people -- black and white, civil rights activists and peaceniks -- who were finally driven to a kind of madness by the pain of the times. And to think there were FBI and undercover cops on hand at times to make it even worse... >sigh<

The 1968 Democratic National Convention that was held in Chicago was an utter disaster. Many thousands of protestors showed up, but Mayor Daley (that would be the now-deceased father of the later Mayor Dayley) had his cops come on like gangbusters before anyone did anything, and it was a police riot. They stormed through the parks and streets breaking heads and ribs, broke into the local Gene McCarthy office and slammed people up against the file cabinets, and generally behaved with brutality.

Come to think of it, Dubya's got a much more sophisticated system in place. His administration is becoming very well-versed in helping local police departments put big cities into lock-down mode. What's more, our people have tried to be so co-operative that they've allowed themselves to be herded into these cages called "free speech zones." I really am happy that UFPJ has decided to give the cage a pass and assemble in Central Park after all.

Whatever happens in New York, I'll be thinking of you and my friend who's already there, wishing you all the best and cheering you on. I'll be here in my town taking part in our own smaller version of the UFPJ event.

Hekate

[Hutzpa]

37. Please, Please Please let them for once do something right n/t

[blondeatlast]

34. It will take the riot police as long to get there as it will for the media

[RebelYell]

4. Without a permit?

That's not allowed

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. NYC doesn't have enough police

to stop 300,000 people from congregating in Central Park. Most of them will be down at Madison Square Garden protecting repugs from terrorists.

[mom cat]

15. It's not a rally...It's a picnic. Don't forget the Heinz ketchup, mustard

pickles....etc.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

32. A group of 300,000 needs a permit. 300,000 individuals don't.

[blondeatlast]

35. Who's to say they aren't there for a nice picnic?

It's a PUBLIC park, fucheneysake.

[Gman]

6. If 300K individuals each unilaterally decided to go visit Central Park

gee, that would just be a really crowded day at Central Park now, wouldn't it?

[prodigal_green]

10. Nah, it's called a Sunday. n/t

[Junkdrawer]

7. Answer: They'd walk right into the Republicans trap...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2185942&mesg_id=2185942

[against all enemies]

11. The Cops will bust heads. This is not America.

[SoDesuKa]

13. Cops Love Doing That

New York has some nasty cops who would love to break heads open. They don't need any encouragement. If there's any hint that the authorities will look the other way, watch out.

[Habibi]

23. Really?

Do you speak from experience?

[SoDesuKa]

39. Francis X. Livoti

Francis X. Livoti had been a bad cop for his entire career, and the other cops protected him as one of their own. When he finally killed somebody the cops perjured themselves to keep him out of prison. NYPD is full of bad cops like Livoti, some of whom are spoiling for a chance to break somebody's head open.

I personally saw the provocative way the cops acted during the pre-war protest in February. The only reason they got away with it is that the crowd was peaceful. If they do it again in late August, there will be a riot.

For the story on bad cop Livoti, see http://rwor.org/a/v20/970-79/978/baez.htm

The cops like to park on this street, sometimes to drink coffee, sometimes to sleep. Another cop car pulls up. Francis Livoti is the driver, a cop who's had 14 official complaints filed against him. Many of them involved choking. He's with a sergeant who's supposed to be monitoring him to prevent improper conduct.

Thud. The ball hits Livoti's car. He gets out and orders the Baez brothers to go home. But they are home. The brothers try to continue their game. Livoti gets out. He's in a rage. "That's it! Who wants to fight?" he yells. He goes for one of the brothers, David, and arrests him. When Anthony protests, Livoti turns on him and gets him in a chokehold. Anthony's a big guy. He used to wrestle. If he wanted to, he probably could have inflicted some pain on Livoti, but he doesn't resist. Livoti doesn't care. He's crazy with anger. He holds Anthony around the neck 10 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds, 40 seconds, 50 seconds--a long killing minute. The life spills out of Anthony Baez.

[starroute]

14. Can't stop people from going to the park

As long as it doesn't look like a demonstration -- no speakers, no formal agenda -- it would just be you and 300,000 of your closest friends. What's to object?

[Ducks In A Row]

16. if everyone just showed up at the same time

it's not like it would be planned or anything. they were all out for a walk and well it just happened.

:D

[genius]

17. Nah. My crystal ball says it'll be more like 750,000

[TrogL]

18. Remember Kent State

What more can I say?

[TreasonousBastard]

19. They just might close the park.

Don't for a minute kid yourself. I've seen the NYPD vastly outnumbered by peaceful protestors herd them around like zombie cattle.

So, 300,000 people decide to visit the park.... well, 298,000 of them want no trouble and do exactly what they are told.

The cops set up barricades and direct people away from the park. The barricades are constantly shifting, keeping everyone off balance. Everyone is kept on the sidewalks, allegedly so traffic can move (jaywalking is illegal, of course) and the sidewalks are so crowded no one can move at all.

Some people will make it to the park, but most will be milling around ainlessly trying to figure out where the barricades will be next.

That's exactly what happened last year. And they had the permits.

One fundamental problem UFPJ has is where to set up the speaker's platform and hold the actual rally. That's the whole point of the permit. Without it, if they set up the microphones, they are immediately subject to arrest and being closed down.

The parade permit was easy-- it's the rally permit that's holding things up.

[Habibi]

27. Well, can we beat them at their own game?

They turn us away from the park, we flash our signs to all the tourists in taxis passing by. They want us to move? We'll move, with great politeness. Yes, sir. Of course, sir. We still flash our signs. Even if we're moved to disparate street corners spanning from the Village to the upper West Side, we'll have our signs. We can still make our presence felt.

Do we really need a rally? Speakers? Don't we pretty much know what the speakers will say? Can we, as polite dissidents, say it just as well with our presence? Will our passion be misspent if we only gather into small groups up and down Manhattan, holding our signs, quietly, politely?

[Stephanie]

29. I don't think you're envisioning how big this crowd will be

The February protest in NYC before the Iraq invasion was the most intense, dense crowd I have ever seen in my life. It was shoulder to shoulder for miles. I arrived with 8 friends and left with 5 as one by one they got swallowed up by the crowd never to be seen again. We filled the blocks from 57th to 72nd all along Lexington, Third and 2nd Avenues. You have never seen so many people in your life. You were swept along in that crowd like you can't believe. I think the RNC protests will be that, plus out-of-towners. Remember, on the day we had the Feb. protest there were protests going on in every city around the world. This time, it will be just NYC. Everyone will gather here. It's not going to be a few folks standing around with signs.

[Habibi]

30. I understand that

I'm saying that if we refuse the West Side Hwy site, and don't have an alternative--as the OP says, what if we just show up at CP? And if we do, and the cops/NG/private security detail/whatever manage to turn us away, what's to stop us from splitting up into smaller groups, and protesting at myriad points around Manhattan?

Or are you saying that you think the crowd will be so huge the cops won't be able to turn us back without violence?

Since you are a NYCer, what would you like to see happen that day, assuming we can't get the permit for a rally in NYC?

[Stephanie]

36. If we don't get a permit we are fucked

You can't believe how efficiently they can shut down this city. They did a trial run at the Halloween Parade this year. A lovely, fun parade that has been a neighborhood thing for 20 years. This year? I live one block away from the parade route (6th Avenue) and I was not allowed to CROSS THE STREET to get to the parade. Cops were belligerant, barricades were everywhere. All this for a NOTHING event. Don't kid yourself that tens of thousands of people are going to be able to pull anything off. We need the permit and the location. Bloomberg can bite me, by the way. His ass is grass. What a freaking prick. What do the pugs have on these people? Everybody goosesteps for them.

[Habibi]

40. Okay. Whew.

It's sounding like coming to NYC on the 29th isn't such a smart idea.

[TreasonousBastard]

31. I was there, too...

and couldn't get to the meetup areas of several groups I was looking for. People I found by accident disappeared in to gaping maw of the crowd as soon as I saw them. That worked right into their plan-- keeping us off balance and disorganized.

The moving barricades and street patrols keeping everyone on the sidewalk worked wonders for them. We were not amused by the snipers on the rooftops. Rest assured there will be much more of that this month.

What was it, 150,000 showed up, and were herded like sheep.

The city's a big place, though, and when you got over to 5th, you wouldn't know there was a demonstration at all.

fwiw, I have seen lunch hours years ago when the sidewalks seemed almost as crowded. And, there was a 4th of July with the tall ships and fireworks in the Battery which was the scariest crowd I've ever been in. There were so many people leaving at the end of it that you were literally pushed by the mob. If you tripped and fell, there would have been no way for anyone to get around you-- you would have most certainly been trampled.

I suppose everyone's worst nighmare is if a crowd like that turned ugly, or panicked.

[goclark]

21. Can they have a Red White and Blue Concert?

I'm not sure that we want to picket in New York and have the Rethugs throw us in jail. That worked in the 60's but with all this homeland unsecurity that is so risky IMO.

Just one Alternate Idea:


Our America The Beautiful Concert

In order to get in, you must be nicely dressed in Red/ White and or Blue. In other words beat them to the punch with our patriotism

Tickets would be at least $100 - 400, maybe more. Could be sponsored by Move On(or some other appropriate group) NOT the Democratic Party of course.

No signs, no dressing up in mask,just looking like beautiful people.

Have lots of high profile names on the show... all entertainers MUST agree to make no political statements because it would ruin the mood.But of course ALL entertainers would have been our loyal supporters.

I would love to see people there that would get the attention of the Media just because they are appearing.... Patti LaBelle, Luther Vandross(surprise appearance no singing), Carly Simon, The Dixie Chicks!, Bruce Springsteen etc.

Someone like Ben Affleck could be the MC

Everyone would sing peace songs from the 60's.

No mention of Bush. No mention of War.

There could be someone like Wynton Marsalis playing a classical piece. End with Ray Charles' recording of America the Beautiful with little white twinkle lights on batteries in each person's hand.

Make It Super Classy

[Stephanie]

26. "Bringing Down a Dictator"

This was a great documentary on PBS:

The moment of truth arrived on October 4, when a quarter-million Serbs rallied to support striking miners at the pit at Tamnava, and on October 5 when the police pulled out of the Kolubara mine complex where workers had been striking. And it happened when Velimir Ilic led a convoy of bulldozers, along with thousands of cars, trucks, and buses from all over Serbia carrying 200,000 people into Belgrade — as the police and army largely stood aside. It was a provincial uprising and when protestors arrived at the seat of official power, the people's refusal to stand down until Milosevic was gone became obvious to the world. But no one fired a shot: "We had the nation trained not to attack the police, nor to use violence, to be organized," said Srdja Popovic. "As Gandhi said... you must train the nonviolent army for so long that the battle becomes unnecessary."





http://www.pbs.org/weta/dictator/finished/turningpoint.html

[tuvor]

28. If anything went wrong, WWBB?

Who Would Bush Blame?

Well, since NY is supposed to be Dem territory...

[blondeatlast]

33. How, exactly, can they stop them? nt

[rman]

41. they will send agent provocateurs

-

[loudsue]

42. The police and fire fighters have been threatening a strike....

we should ACTIVELY....starting immediately....try to win them all over to our side. Ask them to participate. Send in professional negotiators, ...whatever! Just get them on our side.

:kick::kick:

[bklyncowgirl]

43. Add "The cops deserve a raise" to the list of organized chants

Seriously, NYC cops deal with demonstrations all the time. Unless someone gets ugly with them, they'll handle this professionally. There will be people out there aiming to sabatoge this thing, no doubt paid by Karl Roves slush fund. Rally organizers have to be ready to deal with disruptions themselves.