Why is Chappelle's racism funny?

[Ohio Dem]

This is a serious question. Dave Chappelle's brand of humor is often racist in nature. (Not always, that's true.) And it's damn funny. Why? If a white guy made those jokes, it wouldn't be funny.

Jeff Foxworthy's humor is the same way. Rednecks love it. If a Black comedian made those same jokes, rednecks would hate it. But Foxworthy is white and southern. Hell, there is a whole network of southern white men making fun of southern white men these days, and southern white men love it. (I know, I'm generalizing here.)

If Chappelle told Foxworthy's jokes, or if Foxworthy told Chappelle's jokes, there would be hell to pay.

Is it okay to make fun of your own? Is that what it is?

[Placebo]

1. Comedians have ALWAYS used race...

the difference between him is that he's not REALLY racist he just uses race in his humour, i don't see a problem with that. its not like he's saying KILL WHITEY or KILL NIGGERS and actually means it :)

[Ohio Dem]

7. I don't see a problem, either.

Just an observation, that's all.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

2. Yes. That's exactly what it is.

It is okay to make fun of your own.

When I was little we had a book around called "The Big Book of Jewish Humor." A lot of it poked fun at Jews, but I dare say nobody would call that book anti-semitic...

[aldian159]

3. Reminds me of a Seinfeld episode

where this guy converts to Judaism simply for the jokes. Jerry is so perturbed he tells a priest "If he ever gets Polish citizenship there will be no stopping him!"

[Ohio Dem]

9. "This concerns you as a Jew?"

"No, this concerns me as a COMEDIAN!"

You're right, of course. My question is: Why is that?

[rockymountaindem]

20. I think you're an anti-Dentite.

Thank goodness for the comraderie of Seinfeld fans.

[Ohio Dem]

24. "If it wasn't my son's wedding . . ."

You anti-Dentite bastard! LOL

Yep, the world would be a bleaker place without Seinfeld.

[minkyboodle]

82. LOL

all you raging anti-Dendites....

[noahmijo]

4. Listen if you don't like it just sanction him okay?

Just sancation him oh what's that you got no army? then I suggest you shudafugup biach!

sorry couldn't resist :)

[Ohio Dem]

11. "Gotta get that oil . . . hah!"

I love Black Bush!

[CatWoman]

164. oil??? who said something about oil?

you cooking bitch??? :D

[WMliberal]

5. b/c of rule #1 in becoming a great entertainer

delivery. he's good at convincing us immediately that he is poking fun. he makes us feel that it's okay to laugh at what would ordinarily be awkward.

[Ohio Dem]

14. Good point.

If he wasn't good at it, people would have a problem with it. Okay, I'll buy that. People like their foibles pointed out, as long as it's done correctly. And by the right person.

And when I say "he," I mean either Chappelle or Foxworthy.

[Dastard Stepchild]

157. yes.. good definition

I was going to sit here and think of a reply, but yours suits my thoughts quite nicely :)

[buycitgo]

6. hahahaha

I/m watching the Beastie boys on Letterman as I type this

what a joke

[buycitgo]

10. BTW. chappelle, richard pryor, and many other comedians

of color have made VERY racist fun of whitey, and, depending on how cleverly, masterfully it's written/performed, it's still FUNNY.

I have to say, OTOH, that I've heard some white racialist humor at which I've laughed, while feeling very guilty at the same time

so lynch me

[Ohio Dem]

41. Yep. See this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2193971&mesg_id=2193999&page=

I think that's what you're saying, and that must be the answer. Hell, I don't know.

[delhurgo]

8. Wrong.

There's a double standard. Chapelle could tell Foxworthy's jokes, but Foxworthy couldn't tell Chapelle's jokes. Its called political correctness.

You can get away with saying just about anything if you're black, but if you're white...forget it.

[buycitgo]

12. that's quite the racist spewage there, bud

bet you just LOVE Jesus whistling through the holes in his hand jokes, now, doncha?

would those be a tad PI for YOU, Jethro?

tell me what your sacred cows are, and I'll guarantee I'll find something to offend you

mmmmKay?

[ParisFrance]

15. Blacks use racist jokes towards whites

I am beginning not to care whether I make a black directed joke to other whites.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

21. Not possible since Blacks only react to the racism coming their way

Racism is a belief that one's race is superior. It is possible that black people make stereotypical jokes towards white people but not racist jokes.

I also find your justification a bit curious.

[Ohio Dem]

23. Yep.

The oppressed cannot be racist. That's a fact. They can hate the other group until they turn blue, and while that's objectional and counterproductive, it can't be "racist."

Hi, NSMA! :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

42. I disagree with your definition of the word "racist."

A racist is someone who believes that one race is superior to another or all others. It doesn't matter if they are oppressed or the oppressors.

That said, I REALLY like Dave Chappelle. From the 'white face' to the "Nigger Family" to the blind KKK author, he's one of the best things happening in comedy - hard hittin' on the issues! My favorite scene is in one of his commercials where he's reading hate mail and says, "who's this, Bill O'Reilly?"

I just watched the re-run with Charlie Murphy and the story about how Prince beat him in basketball while wearing a "blouse" or a "matador suit." ... damn funny!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. That is because he is underscoring the absurdity through satire

which is the job of a comedian.

[Swamp Rat]

52. Well, he is damn good at it.

I truly LOVE the absurd and all its manifestations in art.

[Egnever]

89. 1...2...3...4........

5TH !!!!!!


:7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7

Love it!

[petronius]

50. I totally disagree

Racism can be not only a belief in the superiority of your race, but it can also be a hatred or fear of other races. Actions based on that hatred or fear would be racist, and all people are capable of that. If you can call a name, graffiti a house, throw a punch, key a car, break a window, or pull a trigger, you can be a racist.

Another problem with the idea that the oppressed can't be racist is that it treats the oppressed/oppressors as monolithic groups, exercising (or not) power as a single entity. Would you suggest that poor, powerless white people can't be racist, since thy don't have access to the tools of oppression? Consider me as a example: I'm white, but I can't refuse a loan, hire or fire anyone, arrest anyone, etc. If I want to mistreat the black guy in the next apartment, about all I personally have the power to do is make faces at him. Which is about all he can do to me. Would you say that I can be a racist, but he can't? (Please note, this is purely hypothetical; the first person just makes it easier to word the example.)

[Ohio Dem]

53. Well, that's something worth thinking about.

It's true that most White people are basically in the same class, economically, as most Black people.

Well, when Whites start getting born in ghettos (and I know that some do, but they're not the majority), then you'll have a point. When there are as many Blacks in the ruling class as Whites, same thing.

I still say the oppressed can't be "racist." They might hate, but racism is bigger than that.

[petronius]

57. It sounds as though you are using "racism" to mean

what I have always thought was referred to as "institutional racism" - i.e. the inequality embedded in our political and economic systems. Clearly, racism at that level has dire consequences and requires attention; my point was that racism also is found at many other levels and in other forms. Personally, I think it is a mistake to limit the definition of racism so that these 'lower-level' manifestations are excluded from the term...

[Ohio Dem]

60. You might be right.

I never said I had all the answers. I just think there is another term for what you describe. Bigot, for example, might work.

[petronius]

64. Fair enough...

...and "bigot" works fine - unfortunately we have far to many of these words to choose from (and far to much need for them).

[noiretextatique]

158. the problem is: some only focus on the "lower levels"

one could say, for exmaple, this is a tactic of the rw, which tends to dismiss the prevalence and problems of institutional racism. that's what the rw has been doing (successfully) for a few decades now.
and it is a problem, the quagmire of definitions, even on the other side of the political spectrum. in fact, i think the definition confusion is a huge problem.

[ParisFrance]

28. I sense you're telling there is nothing blacks are better at than whites

Yes, they actually do make racist jokes about whites' athleticism and their athletic superiority.

[Ohio Dem]

33. HUH?

NT

[ParisFrance]

39. I'll explain

"Racism is a belief that one's race is superior. It is possible that black people make stereotypical jokes towards white people but not racist jokes."-you


When you told me racism if the belief that one's race is superior to another's and that blacks make sterotypical jokes torwards whites , but not racist jokes. That sounds like they cannot make racist jokes because there is nothing superior about them.

[Ohio Dem]

43. Um, that wasn't me, but since I agree with NSMA, I'll respond.

"That sounds like they cannot make racist jokes because there is nothing superior about them." - you.

If I implied that, I regret it, because it ain't true. But I don't think I or NSMA did. The point is that one cannot be "racist" if they are the oppressed group. Period.

Jews probably told Nazi jokes in their holding pens. That's not racist. Nazis telling Jewish jokes while they were holding Jews in those pens (awaiting execution) was racist.

[ParisFrance]

46. Is this your opinion or is this stated that the oppressed can't be racist

[Ohio Dem]

51. That's correct.

[Behind the Aegis]

63. the racism card

I am very happy that I see fellow DU'ers who see past the old rhetoric that racism is as simple as "making negative racial comments about someone who does not share their race." The aforementioned definitions are correct. However, the "oppressed" can be racist! They just can't be racist toward the "oppressor."

This means...whites can be racist toward blacks, but not the other way around. BUT, blacks can be racist toward Native Americans, and not the other way around. Whereas, blacks may not be in the oppressor position often, in this country (the US), they still wield more political and economic power than Native Americans. And, power is what also defines racism (according to newer definitions of the word). Power + feeling of racial superiority = racism. That being said, not everyone can be a racist, but everyone can be a bigot!!

As for Dave Chapelle, I love his humor! Why can he make black jokes? Because he is black. Why can he make white jokes? Because, with all his money, he still doesn't have the power a white does in this country. Why can't a white person make jokes about blacks? Until we are a more equal society, there will always be suspicion that a white person making a racial joke is hiding a deeper pathology of racism. Clearly, there are whites that do not harbor racist feelings, but that would have to be well known for that white person to make black jokes and not cause a riot!

I am sure there are some of you white DU'ers here that can make black jokes with their close black friends, but would never make those type of jokes in a crowd where people did not know ypu well! I would also guess there are some black folks here that would laugh at their white friend making a black joke, because they would know it was coming from a place of humor and not one of hate or superiority! This type of question could also be posed by changing "race" to "gender."

Things will change when race is defined as HUMAN, not a color!

Brightest Blessings!

[Ohio Dem]

79. I wish I had your ability to say what I'm thinking.

That was a very good post.

[Behind the Aegis]

119. Thank you!

I appreciate your compliment. I have enjoyed reading your comments about this topic. It is a difficult one to navigate. ALL people are touchy about it and it evokes strong reactions in people.

I happen to be gay. If someone calls me a fag, I will usually shrug it off, unless I am in a confrontational mood. BUT, if someone calls me a racist (I am white) or a bigot, then "them's fightin' words!" Therefore, any issue revolving around race is sensitive. Case in point, I was VERY offended by Keyes comments about Obama. He (Keyes) implied Obama was nothing but a "house nigger." That, however, is between Keyes and Obama (my money is on Obama!!!). What really offended me was that Keyes implied whites in the Democratic part are "slaveholders!!" THAT PISSED ME OFF!! How dare he!

When race is involved, everyone will be on eggshells! I am glad to see, though, that people here are willing to think through some of their emotions! :)

Brightest Blessings!

[kiahzero]

98. I think I have to disagree

I think that thinking negatively about another person simply by virtue of their race is rephrehensible, no matter what race the people in question are.

Since this is a thread about the Chapelle Show, let's use his skit about the black white supremacist. Imagine he were real; would his views be less distasteful simply because he was black?

If you answer yes, you have an issue with moral luck: a person's actions are seen as morally superior or inferior because of what amounts to chance (an accident of birth). The same happens in a more realistic scenario.

Person X is strongly ethnocentric: he believes that everyone that is of a different ethnic group is inferior. Under your doctrine, if X is black, he is not racist towards whites. But if X is white, he is racist towards blacks. That is a clear instance of moral luck, since the moral judgement on X is determined by the result of chance.

[Behind the Aegis]

110. additional thoughts

I agree with you that "thinking negatively about another person simply by virtue of their race is reprehensible, no matter what race the people in question are."

As for your question, would I find a blind black man spouting the KKK message less distasteful because he was black? NO! I would find it sad! The fact is their is much self-hatred in the black community (and other minority communities).

As for the "moral luck" issue, I was a little confused by what you were saying. I have re-read it a few times. So, I am going to try to answer what I think you are asking (if I am wrong, let me know). It does not matter what race X is. However, based on definition, racism is based on power and ethnocentrism! BUT...bigotry does not include power, only the concept of being better because of whatever group you belong to (gays are better than straights, whites are better than blacks, men are better than women...etc.). Therefore, in my opinion, a racist is just as bad as a bigot! NO ONE gets a free pass in my book! If you hate someone because of their race, you are not welcome in my little world and I don't care WHAT color you are! So, I don't use the term "racist" (except in presentations and some other venues), I use the term "bigot." Did that clear up my position or make it worse?! :)

Brightest Blessings!

[kiahzero]

116. OK, I think I understand you now

The way I was reading your claims, it seemed like the same act was judged more harshly depending on whether or not the person was in a group with or without power. If I am reading your post correctly, it would seem that this is not the case - you are simply arguing that there should be different terms.

As for the "moral luck" issue, you've pretty much got it. An instance of moral luck is whenever chance makes a moral difference. Philosophers debate whether or not this is a problem in a moral framework, but it's pretty clear to me: an accident of chance, something an individual has no control over, should not change the morality of their actions.

Edit: Major typo in the subject line... wow, I must be tired.

[Behind the Aegis]

122. it is late!! :)

You have read me right! To me, the act is the same, the words, however, are subject to different rules. This is why I am more likely to say a white person is a "bigot" than a "racist." When I say that, there is less confusion when I make the same comment about someone who is black. Racism knows color boundaries, bigotry does not!

I am so glad I got your "moral luck" issue!! I was so worried I would sound like a goober! I am fairly well-read, and I have a master's degree in higher education, so when I am not certain I understand a question, I get a little worried! Therefore, I ask you...what philosophers say this? Where I can read up on this topic?! Anything that makes me more democratic, er....educated (;)), I would appreciate!

Brightest Blessings!

[kiahzero]

123. It helps that my girlfriend is a philosophy major

She took ethics last semester, so I got to be her sounding board for papers.

This seems to be a good resource on it:
http://www.iep.utm.edu/m/moralluc.htm

Also, just google "moral luck" and you'll probably find some good stuff.

[noiretextatique]

160. i agree with what you're saying

but please show me that black, yellow, or red supremacist movement, organization, etc., that has had any where near the impact of the white supremacist movement, either historically or currently. answer: none.
this is my problem with defining racism as an individual phenomenon. and i do believe hatred is a character flaw also.
i suppose the bottomg line is: both/and...it's both and individual phenomenon, and a cultural/social/political/economic tradtion.

[Dorian Gray]

168. Chappelle....

I think with his millions in pay, Chappelle might have a little more "power" in this country than somebody like me. Just saying....

But, I love him, I love his show, and I think he deserves his "slave reparations." His words, not mine!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. Canasta!

It's great posting with you on this subject....I can dump the heavy lifting on you :hi:

[Ohio Dem]

58. I should do the heavy lifting.

I'm the guy, after all.

(I don't recommend this joke to new DU'ers)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Are you actually posting from France?

The reason I am asking is the sentence structure of your last post was a bit confusing. Yes Blacks may STEREOTYPE whites. They do so as a reaction TO RACISM. Racism by definition is the belief and PRACTICE of racial superiority. Around the world this is PRACTICED by whites to the economic disadvantage of BLACKS.

[Ohio Dem]

55. And in that sense, I shouldn't have used that word in my original

post.

[LanternWaste]

167. Both definitions are valid in this context...

It seems both definitions are valid in this context and that may be where some of the misunderstandings are hatched. Racism and prejudice may at times originate from the oppressors, but according to the definitions, this is not necessarily the case...

In both words, the first definitions support your case, but I think the second definitions show that there is much more room for racism than you allow.


From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination


Main Entry: 1prej·u·dice
Pronunciation: 'pre-j&-d&s
Function: noun
1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

[w13rd0]

13. Really?

Hell, you might want to inform Whoppi of that. Double standard my f*ckin ass.

[buycitgo]

16. good one.........you know how that always works:

it's OK if you're a republican

Whoopi is a dirty filthy commie, who loses one of her gigs

Margaret Cho gets fired in ADVANCE!

Bush gives some kids the finger, and they won't even report it.

[Ohio Dem]

17. I don't think that's true.

I'm not gonna call you names or anything. But you're wrong about that. Nobody complains about Foxworthy. They would if Chappelle told the same jokes.

Granted, Chris Rock does some of this, so I see your point in a way. But what Rock does is fundamentally different than what Foxworthy does, so it's apples and oranges, IMO. It's not a double standard in any way.

I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into this kind of conversation.

[Tom Kitten]

18. Wrong.

Political correctness nowadays is all about toeing the Republican line or else find yourself out in the streets (ala Linda Ronstandt)...

Try to get a grip on this, besides most of what passes as contemporary American culture sucks ass Bigtime so I don't see the big reason for debate...To me it's like a piece of crap calling another piece of crap a turd and then "elevating" to the point where they start flinging shit at each other....

The liberal definition of "pc" is long dead...deal with it...

[jeffrey_X]

25. Yes....good old reverse racism.

A look at the Myth of Reverse Racism

<snip>
In the skit, Chase and Pryor face one another and trade off racial epithets during a segment of Weekend Update. Chase calls Pryor a “porch monkey.” Pryor responds with “honky.” Chase ups the ante with “jungle bunny.” Pryor, unable to counter with a more vicious slur against whites, responds with “honky, honky.” Chase then trumps all previous slurs with “ni**er,” to which Pryor responds: “dead honky.”

The line elicits laughs all around, but also makes clear, at least implicitly that when it comes to racial antilocution, people of color are limited in the repertoire of slurs they can use against whites, and even the ones of which they can avail themselves sound more comic than hateful. The impact of hearing the antiblack slurs in the skit was of a magnitude unparalleled by hearing Pryor say “honky” over and over again.

<snip>

When a group of people has little or no power over you institutionally, they don’t get to define the terms of your existence, they can’t limit your opportunities, and you needn’t worry much about the use of a slur to describe you and yours, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it’s going to go. What are they going to do next: deny you a bank loan? Yeah, right.

So whereas “ni**er” was and is a term used by whites to dehumanize blacks, to imply their inferiority, to “put them in their place” if you will, the same cannot be said of honky: after all, you can’t put white people in their place when they own the place to begin with.

<snip>

[Ohio Dem]

27. Wow.

Nice post. I've always thought that, but didn't have the words to put my thoughts into my conversations. Again, nice post.

[jeffrey_X]

30. Tim Wise writes some great stuff...

Lot's of good race(anti-racist) related articles here:

http://www.zmag.org/bios/homepage.cfm?authorID=96

[Ohio Dem]

38. Thanks. nt

nt

[Momgonepostal]

36. I don't buy it.

[Terran]

156. What utter bullshit

Back to your bridge please.

[TlalocW]

19. There was a great segment on In Living Color

Where it was three black guys and one white in a diner where everyone else was black, and they were talking basketball.

First black guy: Michael Jordan... He's my nigga!
Second black guy: Oh, yeah? Well, Scotty Pippen - he's my nigga!
Third black guy: Shaq! He's my nigga!
White guy: Well, Charles Barkley? He's my nigga!

The whole diner goes deadly quiet, and all the black people look at him either in shock or with anger in their eyes - especially the cook who has a large knife.

White guy: Uh, what I meant is Charles Barkley is quite the basketball player. I admire him greatly.

Diner returns to normal.

Race humor - it's just one of those things.

TlalocW

[Ohio Dem]

32. Yeah, I guess it is "one of those things."

"One of those things" must be the reason. I know it is. But why is that? Why is it okay for Chappelle to say what he does (and Foxworthy to say what he does, BTW), and it's okay? Why is it, exactly, "one of those things?"

[Must_B_Free]

22. I love when someone does "the robot" dance

happened twice on tonights episode. Hilarious jab at the 80s.

[thebigidea]

26. What nonsense. If Foxworthy told Chappelle's jokes, he'd be... UNFUNNY.

Chappelle = funny.
Foxworthy = no.

[Ohio Dem]

29. I agree.

Why is that? They're the same jokes.

BTW, if Foxworthy did Chappelle's stuff, it would be just as unfunny. For the same reason, whatever that is.

[thebigidea]

31. Foxworthy couldn't pull off sketch comedy 1/20th as good as Chappelle

Jeff Foxworthy was never funny, despite what he'd like us all to believe.

If you can watch something like that fantastic Black Klansman skit and walk away only obsessing over how racist it is, perhaps you should put the remote down or walk slowly away from the television.

Foxworthy just belches out stereotypes as is. Chappelle USES stereotypes and distorts them to make a point sometimes.

For that "Black Bush" piece alone, all comedy transgressions are forgiven.

Brace yourself, there's talk of him starring in a Rick James biopic.

[Ohio Dem]

37. I think you're missing the point.

I love Chappelle's Show. The Black Klansman skit is what sold me. Not only am I not offended, but I crave for more.

My question is deeper than that, or I hoped it was. Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly. Why is what Chappelle, and Foxworthy for that matter (and he is a funny guy), okay?

And as for skit comedy, you're probably right about Foxworthy. We'll see, however, as he now has a skit comedy show on Comedy Central.

[thebigidea]

40. Save yourself the trouble, its a fuckin' atrocity.

The point is that Jeff Foxworthy is a notalent pile of shit and Chappelle is a creative comedian at the top of his game.

Setting up some weird Horizontal Axis of Comedy with the two of them at either ends strikes me as baffling.

What's next... Chris Rock vs. Bob Hope? Richard Pryor vs. Funnyman Bobby Bittman?

Dolemite vs. Junior Samples?

[Ohio Dem]

47. It doesn't matter.

I don't care if you love or hate Foxworthy. That's not the point. I don't care if you love Chappelle. Also not the point.

The point is that they make fun of their own. And it's okay, according to their own. I want to know why it's okay to do that, but it's not okay to make fun of "them."

It's not a popularity contest.

[thebigidea]

59. The person doing the joking most certainly matters.

Its not a popularity contest, its a skill contest. Its like trying to contrast Jon Stewart and Colin Quinn.

One does smart satire and pushes beyond mere "jokes," the other is just a walking joke. Two different beings operating on two different levels entirely.

To equate what Chappelle does with Jeff Foxworthy is just hilarious.

[Ohio Dem]

62. I'M NOT!

Sorry to yell. I agree with you that Chappelle is funnier, on several levels, than Foxworthy. (I also agree with you about Stewart and that idiot Quinn.) That's not the point!

Why is what Chappelle does okay, but a similarly (hypothetical) White comic can't pull it off?

I only brought up Foxworthy because a Black comic, even a gifted one like Chappelle, would at the least be ridiculed, and maybe even lynched.

I'm not comparing the two's talents.

[thebigidea]

65. What he does is "ok" because he's funny, sporadically brilliant, and SELLS

I don't understand your hypothetical comedian and his even more hypothetical restrictions. What restrictions? Why can't he pull WHAT off?

What do you want to see, what boundary needs breaking?

I don't consider Chappelle racist but I could name dozens of idiots who have appeared on "Tough Crowd" who are, and happen to be various shades of pinkish white. I could name them if I could care less, but apparently some people do because the show hasn't been cancelled yet.

[Ohio Dem]

71. We agree on Quinn's show.

You don't think Chappelle would have been canceled by now if he lampooned white people? Never mind how talented he is.

You're right, IMO, about Quinn's show, BTW.

[thebigidea]

73. are you saying Chappelle DOESN'T lampoon white people? The hell?

He lampoons the hell out of white people, black people, green people, aquamarine people, and purple fucking people eaters.


exhibit A, if it may please the court... "The Niggar Family":

http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php?reposid=/multimedia/chappelle/showclips_s2/202_niggar.html&setplayer=real_media

[Ohio Dem]

76. Dude, calm down.

I think we're on the same side here. My question is "why is it okay" for a black man to lampoon other blacks.

And, for reference, I noted that Foxworthy does the same thing to rednecks. I'm not badmouthing either, but I wonder why it's okay for Chappelle to say things Foxworthy can't.

And similarly, why can rednecks make fun of rednecks without rednecks getting pissed off?

[thebigidea]

78. Calm down? I'm cracking up.

And why WOULDN'T you want to badmouth Foxworthy? He's an atrocious hack.

What exactly are you saying Foxworthy can't say? Give me an example.

[Ohio Dem]

83. For example:

I would be offended if he made "The Niggar Family." He couldn't, and shouldn't, get away with it.

He's a hack, in your opinion. That's fine.

I don't know what your problem with my question is.

[thebigidea]

87. huh? If he wrote and produced something so witty, it'd get laughs

If he played the white guy in there, with Chappelle playing the friend - the skit would still work and not offend. Because it'd still be a great takeoff on 50s tv and race, though marred by Foxworthy's bad acting.

What do you mean? If Foxworthy donned blackface or something and played the Chappelle role?

[Ohio Dem]

91. If it was something as funny as Blazing Saddles, you're probably

right. But what are the chances of that?

No, no, you're right. Foxworthy couldn't do it, ever. For the reasons you've stated, it's impossible.

That doesn't, however, answer my original question. Why is it okay for hacks like Foxworthy to make fun of rednecks with impunity? You know as well as I do that rednecks wouldn't let a comedian that wasn't one of their own do it without FR posting about what an outrage it was.

[thebigidea]

92. and as we all know, comedians tremble at the thought of posts on FR

In case you haven't noticed, lotsa comedians like making fun of rednecks.

Uh, Bill Maher? Even Ari Fleischer couldn't shut him up, so I doubt FR will have much effect.

[Ohio Dem]

94. You knew what I meant. nt

nt

[thebigidea]

96. no, I don't. The original argument was wrongheaded...

and continues to unravel.

[Ohio Dem]

97. How?

I was wondering why it's okay to make fun of your own, but people get pissed when you make fun of others.

Other posters have answered this question. You have not.

edited for poor typing skills

further edited because this was in response to #96.

[thebigidea]

103. I don't accept the premise that what Chappelle does is racist.

I don't have the faintest idea what you mean by "ok," either. Insulting things that are different from you is the basis of quite a bit of comedy... some funny, some not.

As a poster mentioned above, you don't hear Don Rickles complaining about not being able to work.

As an amateurish, awful comedian myself, I never wonder if something is "ok" or not - is it FUNNY? That's the only arbiter.

[kiahzero]

99. Way to miss the point

The point was that the rednecks don't mind when Foxworthy (another redneck) does it, but do when others outside their group do. The clout of their group, one way or another, has nothing to do with it.

[Ohio Dem]

100. Exactly.

That's the question.

[thebigidea]

101. Is there some sort of National Assocation for the Advancement of Rednecks?

Who the hell complains? I complain whenever Foxworthy opens his stupid mouth.

Making fun of slackjawed yokels have been a staple of comedy since the first hick put hay in his mouth and drawled. Its an ugly stereotype to some, but you can't say that there's much of an uproar when "rednecks" are mocked.

Garofalo does it, Maher does it, Hollywood has churned out decades worth of movies mocking rednecks.

Maybe the NAACR should work on their righteous indignation some more, perhaps work up a persecution complex. Well, wake me when rednecks start getting lynched or denied loans at the bank by rich black men.

[Ohio Dem]

104. Well, there's the Republican Party.

They've been pretending to stand up for rednecks for several years.

But that doesn't have much to do with my original question.

On edit: Why won't my posts post to the post to which I'm replying?

[kiahzero]

106. Again, missing the point

The question was, "Why do many members of <insert group> generally not get offended when a member of that group makes fun of them, but generally do when those outside the group do the same thing?"

You're focusing too much on the examples (the fact that Foxworthy sucks has NOTHING to do with the real question, for instance) to dodge the actual question the poster was looking to discuss.

[thebigidea]

107. That wasn't the question in the original post at all.

It didn't mention anything about selective groups being offended, it was much more general.

The original question would imply that white people found David Chappelle offensive. Judging by his popularity, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Nobody cares when Foxworthy makes fun of rednecks, because nobody cares about either Jeff Foxworthy OR rednecks being mocked except 4 guys on the internet who have absolutely nothing to do with programming on Comedy Central or elsewhere.

[Ohio Dem]

109. No, that WAS my question.

I should know, I posted it.

"Is it okay to make fun of your own?"

[thebigidea]

111. It is okay to make fun of your own, their own, and anything anyone owns.

there are no limits to comedy except being funny. if the audience finds you funny, what you do is ok.

Is that a simple enough answer?

By the way, that was NOT your question. You didn't say anything about only SPECIFIC groups being offended, you implied it wasn't acceptable to ANY group... you went on to say something about people being offended if Chappelle lampooned white people, regardless of the fact that he does.

[Ohio Dem]

113. Alright then!

Thank you for you opinion.

For what's it's worth, I think you have the wrong idea about me, but thanks for answering my question.

edited for clarity.

[kiahzero]

112. If you read my other replies to you

I already pointed out that I didn't like the way that the original poster originally stated his point, and only refrained from commenting on it because he had already clarified what his post was about.

Had you more clearly read the posts you've been replying to, you would have known before now that you were attacking a straw man. The poster stated 20 minutes ago that my assessment was exactly what he was going for in his thread.

[thebigidea]

114. I'll be sure to study your future posts like the Dead Sea Scrolls

[kiahzero]

117. You don't have to go that far

Actually reading them for comprehension them would be a start, though.

[thebigidea]

118. nah, I'd rather just use 'em as straight lines

With a premise as ridiculous as "Chappelle's Racism," you can't expect me to treat anything on this thread seriously, including myself.

[kiahzero]

120. Again with this?

Never mind that the poster corrected himself. That doesn't matter. Use the wrong word just once, and that's what the conversation will focus on - not the point the poster was trying to make, but how foolish the poster was for using the wrong word.

:eyes:

[thebigidea]

126. yeah, bizzare that people would continue arguing about the subject line

How completely outlandish, to continue discussing the original post on this thread.

What corrections? "In that sense" and "I think you're right"?

Finally I get a direct correction towards the end, dripping with condescension and attempts to make me the awful, terrible bully for daring to be annoyed that Chappelle was being labeled racist. But it took dozens of posts.

[kiahzero]

131. It didn't take dozens of posts

He corrected himself in post 54 and 55. Where are we now, 130?

I'm sorry, I forgot - you can't be expected to read and comprehend a thread before being annoyed about it. To do so would be the same as expecting you to study the thread as if it were the Dead Sea Scrolls.

:eyes:

[thebigidea]

134. Forgive me for replying to my posts using, uh - "My Posts"

I should've caught the stunning implications of "in that sense" and "I think you're right" - why, those were such strong corrections, weren't they.

So you can forgive someone saying David Chappelle is racist, but missing extremely weak "corrections" in the midst of a gigantic thread is worthy of repeated dumb emoticons and weak riffs on reading comprehension.

Well, thanks for caring, I guess. I'll let you know if I need help moving the sofa or something.

[kiahzero]

137. See, I actually read all of the thread I'm posting on

Maybe that's "studying it like it's the Dead Sea Scrolls."

Then again, since I replied directly to you pointing out that the poster had already said he had mispoken 2 hours ago, you probably still should have known that you were arguing against a straw man.

[thebigidea]

138. Well, I'll be sure to nominate you for a Nobel or something.

I've got insomnia. What's your excuse?

[kiahzero]

139. Cool!

When do I find out if I won? I mean, I did put in so much effort. Imagine... reading a thread that I wanted to post on! It's like I'm Einstein or something.

[thebigidea]

140. or pedantic, anyway.

[Ohio Dem]

141. So he's the bad guy now?

For actually reading my posts?

[thebigidea]

142. no, he's the good guy... I've got the evil moustache in this little epic.

At some point, I intend on tying people to train tracks or something and twirling my moustache, accompanied by bad organ music.

When will someone put a stop to my diabolical schemes! When will this living nightmare ever end?

I'm the villain because I replied to your post and only read your replies to mine... this qualifies me for "Most Evil DU Poster in the Tristate Region Who Regularly Uses the My Posts Feature."

If I perform well, I hope to make the All-America All-Evil Playoffs.

I don't know if I'll be evil enough to make it, as I'm spending a lot of time working on a book entitled "The Negative Dialectics of Shemp Howard"

[kiahzero]

143. You did a pretty good job, Snidely Whiplash

Seeing as you clearly didn't read all your replies, because, as I just said, I pointed out to you that you were arguing against a straw man about two hours ago, and yet you persisted for some unknown reason.

The irony is that somehow I'm the pedantic one - I got over the misuse of the word once he corrected himself, while you continued to harp on it for quite some time.

[thebigidea]

144. As opposed to your harping on and um, on?

Surely you can see the irony of that as well, hmm?

Or will it take a few more posts of the same phrases permutated slightly?

[kiahzero]

149. Not really

Your harping was ongoing over a settled issue... the closest you've come to admitting your mistake was a sarcastic half-apology.

In other words - my complaint with you has been, from the beginning, that you were beating a dead horse. Well (to continue the analogy), this horse isn't dead yet, so there's no hypocrisy in continue to "beat it."

[thebigidea]

150. Guess not.

Well, we've strayed quite a bit from the whole "comedy/race" discussion, which had me interested.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you're not going to get much out of me at 4:14AM but sarcasm and snide asides, especially when you don't want to talk about Dave Chappelle, Comedy, or race.

If you want to officially register your complaints with me, please send them to:

The Ari Fleischer Appreciation Society
DEPT. SMUG
PO BOX 2323
Wrestlemania, Minnesota

One of our customer service representatives will get back to you. Until then, I advise you to walk quickly and say nothing about this if questioned. Pleasant dreams.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ohio Dem]

145. When we elect Kerry.

Claiming I'm a racist is helping them, not us.

I regret the wording of my question. I've admitted it.

[thebigidea]

146. The wording of your question cost us the election!

Oh, I didn't claim you were a racist. I never said that and said I didn't think you were many posts ago.

But what "them" are you talking about this time?

[Ohio Dem]

147. LOL!

Dave Chappelle couldn't have said it any better!

I'm off to bed. Peace, my friend!

[thebigidea]

148. Likewise! A highly enjoyable thread. I love talkin' comedy.

[Ohio Dem]

121. If you're accusing me of something, just spit it out.

Enough with the subtlety.

[thebigidea]

124. what subtlety? I just think you're wrong. Chappelle isn't racist.

And I think its ok for ANYONE to make fun of rednecks, not just Jeff Foxworthy.

Is that unsubtle enough?

[Ohio Dem]

127. I was wrong for saying it.

I recanted my poor choice of words in that matter. I really should have said "racial." My bad. I admitted that early in the thread.

You can think whatever you want, but your refusal to read everything in a thread speaks volumes. Your lack of understanding that a person can make an honest mistake speaks, too.

[thebigidea]

128. your lack of understanding of my lack of understanding speaks even more!

It speaks volumes! Really heavy volumes.

I don't think you're racist, I just don't think you understand comedy and were barking up the wrong tree with this thread.

[Ohio Dem]

129. Your beef with me is that I don't understand comedy?

Whatever. :eyes:

[thebigidea]

130. your ferociously witty reply kinda proves my point.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.

Night! Maybe next time we can argue about the sociological implications of the Jeffersons.

[Ohio Dem]

132. Start a thread, big.

I loved the Jeffersons.

[thebigidea]

135. I'm too busy with my Symposium on "Full House"

[Ohio Dem]

136. Fair enough.

[theboss]

174. I doubt you could make "Blazing Saddles" today

You absolutely could not do the "The Sheriff is a Ni. . . <Dong> . . . What did he say?. . . . He said, the Sheriff is near. . .No dagnabit . . .The Sherrif is a Nig <Dong>" scene.

My favorite fact of "Blazing Saddles," Richard Pryor wrote most of the slapstick scenes (Mongo, the beans, etc) while Mel Brooks wrote most of the racial aspects.

There is a new sensitivity to these things today, which I think has more to do with empowerment than anything. A black comedian can make fun of any culture, though they still need to be sensitive with their own (as the Jesse Jackson controversy over "Barbershop" showed). White people can make fun of themselves but they need to tread extremely carefully when they get involved in racial humor. I don't think Saturday Night Live could do that above mentioned skit with Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor now. They would get cancelled.

[DrWeird]

88. Wait, you're saying Chapelle is racist because of the word...

"nigger."

I'd think it's rather obvious that black people can and should "get away with" using the word "nigger." The word nigger is a racist word, people who use it are racist. With a few exceptions. For example, the context of this post where I'm actually discussing the word. Another example, black people using it. Obviously a black person who uses the word "nigger", especially in a comedic context, obviously aren't racist. You can't be racist to your own race (with a few rare exceptions), that just doesn't make sense.

[thebigidea]

90. maybe we should label Jackie Mason a vicious anti-Semite

in ADDITION to being a painfully unfunny right wing dullard.

[Ohio Dem]

93. No. That post was about Foxworthy. nt

nt

[ButterflyBlood]

115. um, Chapelle DOES lampoon white people

He lampoons EVERYONE.

[gatorboy]

81. What about Don Rickles?

He seems to get a free ride on any racial topic. No one seems to mind, plus he's funny!

[Ohio Dem]

84. I never thought he was funny.

JMO!

[theboss]

175. Rickles is like a historical artifact now

I don't think anyone starting out in comedy could do his act and last more than a few months before he was picketed.

By the way, if you want to hear what you could get away with just forty years ago, pick up "The Rat Pack: Live at the Sands."

"I'd like to thank the NAACP for this trophy."
"Smile, Sammy, so the audience can see you."
"How come we have to wear tuxes while he gets to wear leotards?"
"You know, it's been a long time since I cut a white man."

[RandomKoolzip]

68. Holy shit!

I am actually laughing my ass off reading this post.


Foxworthy, to quote one of thebigidea's earlier posts, is about as funny as "a baby with cancer."

thebigidea, you are a credit to DU. Never stop posting.

[RandomKoolzip]

72. "If you've based an entire career on a flimsy paradigmatical framework

cultural tunnelvision, and idiotic generalization, funnelled through the weakest joke delivery style since Richard Nixon.....you might be Jeff Foxworthy."

[fob]

34. Because you have to know a subject very well to be able to lampoon

it.

[Ohio Dem]

56. That's probably true. nt

nt

[FredScuttle]

35. Racial, not racist, humor

I take issue with your main premise...you set this up as if you've got only blacks on one side enjoying Chappelle and white rednecks on the other side in the Foxworthy camp

I would assert that Chappelle appeals to a much broader and multiracial audience than you give him credit for. Chappelle finds humor to mine in all sorts of racial situations...he's inventive and damn funny.

Conversely, I don't know how much Foxworthy's appeal extends beyond the "Blue Collar Comedy" crowd.

[Ohio Dem]

54. I can't argue that.

I think you're right.

Chappelle's appeal is proof that this country is at least taking some steps toward what it should be. As for Foxworthy's comedy, I have no idea how it plays outside the obvious audience. I suspect what you said is true, though.

[DrWeird]

49. What's racist about Chapelle?

I don't get it.

[thebigidea]

61. maybe he uses "them" in quotes or something.

[kiahzero]

66. Are you trying to say that post 47 is racist? (n/t)

[thebigidea]

67. no, I'm referring to the giant ant movie.

the interpretation of the post you cite will be left to the appropriate clerical authorities... maybe we should consult a few rabbis, too.

[kiahzero]

69. Right

So, let's look at the post in question:

The point is that they make fun of their own. And it's okay, according to their own. I want to know why it's okay to do that, but it's not okay to make fun of "them."

In other words:

People of Group A feel it's OK for someone, also a member of Group A, to make fun of Group A. But they don't feel it's OK for a member of Group A to make fun of Group B.

Yeah, that sure sounds racist to me.

:eyes:

[thebigidea]

70. so is Chappelle racist, then?

because I don't see you leaping to that charge in the very subject line.

[kiahzero]

75. Because the poster admitted it was a poor turn of phrase

No need to beat a dead horse. He/she's already admitted the mistake (posts 54 and 55). If you had admitted that inferring he was a racist was also inappropriate, then I wouldn't have posted to you, either.

So, do you have an explaination of how the post was racist, or are you content to smear without any justification whatsoever?

Edit: Typo

[thebigidea]

77. Speaking of dead horses...

[kiahzero]

85. Silly me

Thinking that I could defend a fellow DUer against a spurious charge.

[Swamp Rat]

74. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Ow! My stomach!

[RandomKoolzip]

80. Here's another 2 cent deposit:

Social issue comedy only works when it's used by the powerless and directed towards the powerful. This is why you've never heard of a guy named Tom Anderson (bigoted, right wing comedian from the fifties who released dozens of albums that were passed around the south like Grateful Dead bootlegs back then) while Richard Pryor's comedy is some of the richest available.

[Ohio Dem]

86. That's probably right.

You can make fun of your own, and you can make fun of "The Man."

That makes sense.

[jpgray]

95. Both Dick Gregory and Lenny Bruce had funny racist bits

Lenny Bruce with his 'how to relax your colored friends at parties' bit ('Joe Louis was a hell of a fighter... er... that Bojangles sure could tapdance! All you people have great rhythm, don't you! I think the host is a Heeb--you're not Jewish are you? No offense--some of my best friends are sheenies') made racism funny.

Dick Gregory had the ultimate shoplifiting team involving six white guys and six black guys. The black guys would draw all the store security and the white guys would wipe 'em out. :D

[Outward Bound]

102. Racism is racism n/t

[praxiz]

105. Good humour makes you think.

Humor is the only test of gravity, and gravity of humor; for a subject which will not bear raillery is suspicious, and a jest which will not bear serious examination is false wit.

Aristotle (384 BC - 322 BC)

[jpgray]

108. Yes--I doubt anyone would call Gregory or Bruce a racist.

Odd that their last names are both first names too. :D

[Placebo]

125. IT SCARES ME...

that this thread has gotten 124 responses lol

[sangh0]

153. Me too

I can't believe some people don't understand why this is so. It's so childish in a "It's not fair! He said it first" kind of way.

[deacon]

133. When you do stand-up, YOU are always the joke-it's the formula n/t

[FredScuttle]

152. One last nitpick...

Just wanted to make sure you knew that Chappelle's co-writer on the show (and someone who is undoubtedly involved in sketch concept development) is Neal Brennan....a white guy

http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0107366/

[sangh0]

154. Neal Brennan, a white guy, writes joke for Chappelle

a BLACK guy

[ScreamingMeemie]

155. It's not funny. I've never found it funny. And I never will. Just like

I don't find Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy funny. Erma Bombeck? To quote Larry the Cable Guy...I don't care who you are, that's funny. :hi:

[wicket]

159. Mel Brooks has been doing it since before Chapelle was born

And Brooks is a white guy. Check out "Blazing Saddles" sometimes, Mel Brooks wrote it with Richard Pryor, no racial background or ethnicity is spared. :shrugs:

[West Coast Democrat]

161. Chappelle's humor is just over the top in general.......

it's not only when he focuses on race.

[TheDonkey]

162. I'm black and I'm offended by Chappelle

mostly because white people do watch it and imitate it.
Using the n-word deragatory language like the popular "I'm Rick James, Bitch!".

It's ridiculous that comedy central would stoop so low.

[FredScuttle]

163. Yes, because Dave Chappelle is the first black comedian

that white people have quoted liberally :eyes:
So the work of Cosby, Pryor and Murphy passed you by eh?

So explain how the catchphrase "I'm Rick James, bitch" equates to "n-word deragatory (or derogatory) language", whatever that means

[sangh0]

166. Ummm, what do you think you read?

That poster never said that Chapelle was *THE FIRST* black comedian to be quoted by white people.

and wrt your question, referring to black women as "bitches" and "ho's" began in the black community and was popularized through rap music.

[FredScuttle]

169. The Donkey should be able to reply for himself/herself

the point I was trying to make is that The Donkey's problem with Chappelle is that white people find him funny and readily quote his bits, as if Chapelle is the only black comic on earth to inspire this phenomenon.

[sangh0]

173. Ahh, I get it now

Sorry for the confusion.

[Cleita]

165. It is.

Paul Rodriguez said that he would make fun of Hispanics to make white people laugh when he first got started in comedy. Margaret Cho had a go at Koreans. If you make fun of yourself, it can be cool, to the audience you are targetting. Remember the Russian comedian Smirnoff who made so much fun of the Soviet Union? If you really read his jokes, they could apply to America as well, especially in this day and age.

[election_2004]

170. I've been reading all the posts here...

And a lot of what I'm hearing makes me truly sick. Some of you are just as bad as the wingnuts.

People of all colors can be racist, regardless of their socioeconomic status.

If you're addressing the subject of institutionalized racism, then specifically refer to it as "institutional racism" during the discussion, so people will know what types of situations you're referring to.

By the way, I've never seen Dave Chapelle's stand-up routine or his TV show, so I can't comment on his humor.

[0007]

171. I sure don't look at it that way, I think Chappelle is making

fun of us all for falling into the stereo type. There may be a small parallel between Jeff Foxworthy & Chappelle. But Jeff just doesn't have the talent that Dave Chappelle has. BTW I'm a white dude!

I love watching the Chappelle show.

[CreekDog]

172. Chapelle Mocks Racial Stereotypes

That's really different than getting laughs based on racism, which Chappelle doesn't do. In fact, his show mocks stereotypes of all races and backgrounds, which would make it hard for a true racist to enjoy or watch the show (since they have a prejudice towards one race) while the show is mocking everybody.

He mocks stereotypes by displaying them and having his characters always say what they think (the stereotype) and by bringing this out, it shows how absurd the stereotype is. In that way, it undermines and mocks the stereotype. And it's damn funny.

Look at the sketch about the "Black reparations" being paid out one day across the country. Everybody acts according to a simplistic racial stereotype, everybody and it's hilarious because it's so ridiculous.

This is what makes it such a good show. Also, Chapelle's co-writer, Neal Brennan, is white. We don't really know who is writing the joke that we are laughing at. It could be the white guy or the black guy or both.

[0007]

176. " It could be the white guy or the black guy or both."

.....and who indeed cares.

This is one show I always look forward too! Thank you CreekDog for a fine post.