Teresa Heinz Kerry and My Thoughts on Sexist Adjectives

[Zomby Woof]

"My only hope is that, one day soon, women — who have all earned the right to their opinions — instead of being labeled opinionated, will be called smart or well-informed, just as men are." -- Teresa Heinz Kerry, at the 2004 Democratic Convention

Once in a while, I get serious on these boards. This is one of those times.


I want some of the men on DU to pay attention here. If you are thinking you are the least likely person I am addressing, the chances are pretty damn good you ARE the person I am addressing, inversely proportional to your denial.

This is not about censorship, PC speech policing, or any attempt whatsoever to duct tape your pieholes when you aren't busy ramming one of your feet into it.

This is quite simply, a request to live up to at least part of your responsibility of being a fully-formed, enlightened human being and THINK about what you say, why you say it, and just how subtle and powerful simple words are when deployed from our tongues.

Teresa Heinz Kerry gave the speech I referenced above nearly 2 weeks ago now, and for reasons I have been exploring lately, that quote above has stuck with me. Partially because I have a fondness for a well-turned jab, and partially because of my lifelong fascination with langauge and its myriad layers of usage and meaning.

But the main reason it stays with me is because it painfully reminds me that even the most seemingly harmless adjectives, such as describing a woman as "opinionated", can mask or obscure undercurrents of latent hostility towards a woman defying her "place". Or just as bad, a woman defying her expected "role" as subservient, meek, and deferential to her male bettors.

Now, I will admit, since this thread's message is directed at me just as much as it is at you, that calling a woman "opinionated" is hardly a high crime or misdemeanor. Generally, I think most of us would agree, man or woman.

But instead of pleading with you not to take my words out of context, I ask you to put them in to context.

To me, calling anyone opinionated is high praise. If I were to call a woman that, I would like to think the woman, too, is complimented by the Zomby Seal of Opinionated Approval.

That is because I trust that she knows me, knows my foibles, my quirks, and my flaws. She knows nothing but the very best was intended by my off-the-cuff praise.

But men, I am telling you, just how often is "opinionated" offered in some kind of glowing context?

I can tell you: Not often at all.

In fact, it conjures up all kinds of damaging stereotypes. "Opinionated" women are disagreeable harpies and endless complainers. They just crave attention and whine too much. They are know-it-all bitches on their period.

Hope those made you wince just a little. You probably don't think you are capable of such twisted nastiness, don't you?

Maybe you're not. And even if this doesn't remotely describe you... ask yourself:

When you compliment a man for his forthrightness and intellect, and you compliment a woman for the same qualities, do you use the same words? Or at least equally unloaded ones? Because the use of "opinionated" Teresa had in her sights was the very loaded use of it.

Loaded words. That is what Teresa nailed in her always dignified and elegant manner.

And going to the next step, the level she was really pounding home, is that often, very often, a woman is NOT complimented when possessing and exhibiting the same qualities as a man. Sometimes you may mean it as a compliment, and sometimes you do not. You should be able to figure out which category the following statements belong:

A man is "assertive".

A woman is a "bitch".

A man is "honest".

A woman is "too blunt".

A man is "decisive".

A woman is "demanding".

And so on, I am sure you get this point.


I bet you don't like being preached to, and I am not too keen on it myself. But once in a while, we need a kick in the ass, for we are human, and we still have much to learn about how to treat one another (yes, this applies to me in multitudes), and just how awesome is our responsibility in mastering the powerful subtleties of language. A person's humanity hinges on it - hers, his, and yours.

Teresa Heinz Kerry said in 32 words what women have known all too painfully for their entire lives. But I bet not one man in a dozen even faintly understood. The double-standard is alive and well, and lives inside your mouths and heads. It really isn't as hard as it sounds to evict it, or make it pay some seriously prohibitive rent.

Don't use your right of free speech unwisely. Otherwise, you make a mockery of that right when you debase other human beings, no matter how well-intentioned, or at worst, harmfully so, your words are sent flying through your teeth.

May you all enjoy the gift of DU's smart, well-informed, and wise women as much as I do.

Peace.

[slinkerwink]

1. bravo!

:toast:

[Kanary]

2. At this point, I'd be happy if "men" on DU would just

quit with the "c" word, already.

I mean, really, it's not like what Teresa said wasn't said OVER THIRTY-FIVE FUCKING YEARS AGO!!

Kanary

[slinkerwink]

4. geez.....we still haven't made a lot of progress

[Kanary]

7. Nope, I keep feeling like I'm at the point in the movie where I walked in.

*THIS* was the struggle during the Vietnam days.....

WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ALL ABOUT???

Me and the other women on DU can't be taken seriously when we say "Knock off the sexist language, guys", but along comes Teresa, and suddenly men can HEAR????

Yeah, I know, I should be grateful.

I'm just pissed.

I really shouldn't have to have some rich, famous woman get a man to hear me.

Kanary

[Zomby Woof]

21. I didn't suddenly "hear"

I am no newcomer to this battle. I say this because you seem to be implying Teresa "converted" me.

Sorry, it's not that simple. I may have a ways to go, but I have been travellin' many a mile on this path.

[Kanary]

24. I wouldn't assume you were a "newcomer"

It just sounds like *her* words got through, where ours didn't, here on DU.

Surely you can understand how that rankles.

Yeah, glad it made some difference to you.

Still wish *I* could make a difference.

Yes, it's that important to me.

We all like, and *need*, to be heard. Especially when our own selfhood is involved.

Kanary

[XanaDUer]

64. (Heart)

:loveya:

[Cybergata]

42. The C word is an interesting word!

It is the one word that makes women really pissed off to hear. It is sad when one looks at the evolution of this word. I quote a passage written by a English Prof from a Usenet group I frequented a long time ago about the meaning of this word:

>The word you find so offensive is derived from the name of the
>Great Goddess Cunti, or Kunda, in her persona as the yoni or
> womb of the universe. According to researcher and linguist
>Barbara G. Walker, other cognates are "cunabula," a cradle or
>earliest abode; "Cunina," a Roman goddess who protected
>children in the cradle; "cunctipotent," all-powerful (i.e., having
>"c*nt-magic"); as well as the words cunning and ken: knowledge,
>learning, insight, remembrance and wisdom. C*nt is "not slang,
> dialect or any marginal form, but a true language word, and of
>the oldest stock."
>
>"Kin" originally meant not only matrilineal blood relations, but
>also a cleft or crevice, the Goddess's genital opening. A
>Saharan tribe called Kuntahs traced their descent from this holy
>place. In ancient writings, the word for "c*nt" was synonymous
>with "woman," though not in the insulting modern sense, the
>way one of the words for "man" in Hebrew derives from its
>word for "p*nis." The vulgarity is purely a modern construction;
>it was merely descriptive to those in the
>ancient world.
>
>So on the one hand, this retrieves "c*nt" from its negative
>connotations and restores it to its rightful position as a name
>or attribute of the Great Goddess.

I think it is sad that a goddess that was worshiped at one time was turned into a derogatory word for women. It was all a process of denigrating women. This process followed the process of trying to turn people toward the worship of a male god figure from the female god figure of earlier people.

The word that makes me cringe is when guys call each other a "p*ssy." (I'm using *s in hopes that I don't get this removed, since I'm talking about something serious.) As a cat lover, I know that p*ssy cats can stop large dogs in their tracts, and when angry, they are hardly wimps. As a woman, I know the connotation is basically saying "don't be such a girl," and this really angers me. It indirectly says that to be a girl is to be inferior. I hate this reference with a passion. :hippie:

[Nevernose]

54. It didn't become a derrogatory word until the 20th century

I'm looking at the OEDs website for it, and it appears in written English in 1230. In fact, it was apparently a medical term, as in (modern spelling, as DU won't reproduce Old/Middle English spellings): "In women the neck of the bladder is short, & is made fast to the c---." When in reference to female genitalia, it didn't get to be a "dirty" word until the Victoriam Age. As late as 1745, doctors were prescribing medical treatments such as "Distended c---- with alum shall be braced." The vulgarity is not just modern, it is VERY modern.

It doesn't appear in writing as an insult until the 1930s, and then is used against men, by implying that they are feminine. Manning 1929, Orwell 1932, Henry Miller 1935. Simialr to what you were saying about P*sy.

Similar words appear in Swedish, German, Old Frisian, Danish, et ct., and come from an Old German word. This could imply a link to Farsi, back to Sanskrit, back to Proto-Indo-European, and would explain similar words/concepts in languages such as Latin. I'm not a linguist or a professor, just a hobbyist, but I sincerely doubt a direct relationship with a Saharan tribe, as they would come from completely different language families, but I'll quite likely spend my free time the rest of the week tracking down any articles by Barbara G. Walker. :)

http://dictionary.oed.com.ezproxy.library.unlv.edu:810/cgi/entry/00055821?query_type=word&queryword=Cunt&edition=2e&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&result_place=1&search_id=9B5s-BGVIey-5986&hilite=00055821

[Cybergata]

73. Thanks for pointing that out!

I actually remember all this now. It has been years since the discussion I quoted from took place. I love word origins. :hippie:

[bobbieinok]

48. yeah.... what she said and what Zomby Woof said was said in the 60s

and it STILL NEEDS TO BE SAID TODAY!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

All of us who were young adults in the 60s are SICK AND TIRED OF FIGHTING AGAIN THE BATTLES WE WON........

....CIVIL RIGHTS

....WOMEN'S RIGHTS

....STUPIDITY OF WARS BASED ON GOVT LIES

We are sickened and feeling too old and tired to have to fight for these things AGAIN.

:argh: :argh: :argh:

[Kanary]

59. Amen, sister! Waaaay too tired!

All this stuff of being told to be "patient"........ I'd really hate to have to start going after people with my cane, y'know?

:toast:

Kanary

[greatauntoftriplets]

72. Bravo!! Well said.

:toast: to bobbieinok.

[Placebo]

3. ACTUALLY she said...

"My only hope, is that one day soon, women — who have all earned the right to their opinions — instead of being called "opinionated", will be called smart and well-informed, just like men."
—Teresa Heinz Kerry, my goddess, my idol, at the 2004 DNC :)

[Zomby Woof]

5. You have to blame my source here

I got it from the Demo Convention's official website, and they use the original texts, before the live speech takes on its own form. But the essential message is unscathed. :-)

[Placebo]

10. I hear ya, damn prepared text, but PREACH ON!

I agree with you 100%. :)

[mark414]

6. i get called opinionated a lot

but it's always in a neutral or positive way

i admit, i've done and still do sexist things. mostly it's just turning my head after a woman walks by or whatever. i could say my awareness of my sexist actions makes me better or "more enlightened" then other men, but truth be told, it really doesn't.

but i will also say that agree with what you said 100%.

i think what we need is a woman president, and if not that then definitely more women Senators and Representatives, if only because i've yet to meet a woman who felt like she had to convey some sort of macho tough-girl bullshit attitude in order to appear impressive. men, on the other hand, that's all we do, much like our "tough on terror" boy georgie.

as the saying goes, we've got a dick and a brain, and only enough blood to use one at a time.

[Kanary]

11. Can you please tell me why you would hear a woman president

but not the women in your life?

I don't get it.....

Kanary

[mark414]

14. i don't get what you don't get

what i was saying was, we've got all these men in government who always put up these macho tough guy bullshit fronts because they're afraid of being called weak, or "girlie men." that results in a lot of stupid decisions and policies, too many for me to get into.

i don't think a woman president would put up those fronts, thus no stupid decisions and policies made solely to look tough or "manly"

[Kanary]

22. what I didn't get

You said you still say and do sexist things.....

Then, somehow, having a woman president would change the attitude.

While I agree with you about *most* women not doing the macho thing (just as there are women who act dumb when they're not, there are also women who do the "tough" bit), unless and until men are ready to actually listen to and respect the women they *know* personally, and care when they say "PLease don't say those things", then they sure as heck aren't going to be ready to have a woman in authority.

If we can't get respect in the small things, we sure won't get the respect we need to be able to be leaders.

Unless, of course, we become the macho figures you decry.

Kanary

[Placebo]

20. So do I...

and I'm a guy. So I guess me and Teresa are in the same boat, heh. :)

PLUS, the fact that I am 18 and very opinionated is almost as bad as being a woman and "opinionated".

I can't tell you how often (especially by repubs) when I try and debate them the second they find out I am 18 they dismiss absolutely all of my opinions as coming from a "thinks he knows everything opinionted kid", when in fact I am probably more politically aware and informed than they are.

[jpgray]

8. To me, 'demanding' and 'opinionated' mean the same for either gender

But I suppose if one is resolved to suffer no slights, both the real and the imagined will get similar treatment. But I'm weird, perhaps--there just isn't any particular word that I find offensive. Intent and context matter to me, but words themselves? I just don't see it.

[Zomby Woof]

12. like I said, myriad complexities

I believe most of us do use these words with no perjorative meaning in sight, and I did pick some extreme examples in the most negative light because unfortunately, some men - and I am talking in this community in particular - are still prone to fall in that direction.

Most definitely a mileage-may-vary element here, but some of these things needed to be said. Others I just wanted to say.

[jpgray]

15. Well, better to attack some innocent comments than let malicious ones by

There is no question that those words are used in the way you describe today, and the recent coverage of Heinz Kerry is a good example (as compared to Cheney's recent outburst).

[athena]

16. She probably meant the b-word

But didn't want to use foul language.

[sandnsea]

37. When people call me "opinionated"

They mean bitch. When my husband says what he thinks, people say he has strong beliefs. I've never heard anybody say my husband is "opinionated". I know exactly what Teresa means, alot of women do.

[senseandsensibility]

9. I've never seen you serious before

I like it! Thanks for understanding. Putting yourself in another's place is getting to be a lost art. It takes real effort, and I, for one, appreciate it.:toast:

[Zomby Woof]

13. thanks!

Actually, I am serious quite often, but don't want to say much beyond that or it's just too grossly self-serving. ;-)

[WindRavenX]

17. Here's another thing...

There are many extremely intelligent women I know in my life; most of them are my friends at college. However, I've noticed a very disturbing thing:
Women act dumb to get male attention. God, how that pisses me off!
Women: NEVER act do this. NEVER be afraid to show that you ARE smart!
Women who are intellectuals are still looked upon as odd beings.
Great post Zomby.

[Zomby Woof]

18. thanks!

And you are damn right!! Your brain is the greatest sex organ of all, and you'll attract a higher quality person with it. :-)

[WindRavenX]

19. That's for damn sure

I have a feeling my ex didn't like the fact that I was intelligent and challanged him...
Oh well. There are tons of liberal men out in Boston for me :D

[NewJeffCT]

41. Disagree somewhat

I disagree that women have to act dumb to get male attention... while it may be true some of the time, certainly.

Maybe it's a cultural thing, but many Asian & Asian-American women (including my wife) certainly never seem to lack from male attention, and I don't see many Asian women out there acting dumb. My wife has two master's degrees (I just have a BS and did some MBA work), and we both have Chinese female friends with similar backgrounds (at least 1 master's each and one woman that is working on a second PhD) that never lacked for male attention and also never pretended to be dumb.

And, I have seen studies that a good way for men to 'pick up' women is to also 'act dumb'... so, it works both ways.

Again, I am not saying that a woman playing dumb doesn't work - just that it is not always true that a woman has to play dumb. Why do Asian women not have to play dumb?

[Behind the Aegis]

23. from all sides

I think this was a great post. I also like several of the posts that followed. But, I wanted to add my opinion and that is: we need to re-evaluate how we view ALL people! This situation does not only affect women, but also men and all others groups. What the hell am I talking about? Let me use the examples in the main post and make my additions...

A man is "assertive". (If he is white! If he is black, he is "aggressive.")

A woman is a "bitch". (If she is white! If she is black, she is a "troublemaker.")

A man is "honest". (If he is white! If he is black, he is a "aggressive.")

A woman is "too blunt". (If she is white! If she is black, she is "pushy.")

A man is "decisive". (If he is white! If he is black, he is "uninformed about options.")

A woman is "demanding". (If she is white! If she is black, she is "unfair.")

Now, this doesn't even include sexual orientation in the mix, or those of different religions! I am a white man, but because I am gay, I lose much of the "power" I have as a white man. Often, when I am assertive I am accused of being a bitch (like a woman). I can say the EXACT same thing as another white male co-worker, but when it comes from me, the dynamics supposedly change!!

The fact is our language can be used to bash people. I do presentations on diversity, one of them is about the use of language and the power words carry. When we speak, we need to think what we are saying and what image it will portray. Think before you speak and everyone will be happier. (The evil side of me says that is if you THINK before you speak, you must be a democrat, therefore people, generally, are happier, but that would be a slam toward good Republicans!)

Brightest Blessings!

[Zomby Woof]

25. Welcome to DU

And thanks for your input!

[Kanary]

26. In other words, we need to let other human being affect us.....?

The pain of others must affect us, or we are lost.....

ALL others.......

Kanary, who appreciates your post...... :hi:

[Behind the Aegis]

27. YES!!!

You nailed it!! When we can "walk in another person's footsteps," then we will understand that we are all the same in our differences! As an educator and counselor, I try to be as empathic as possible! When I can't be empathic, then I at least try to be sympathetic. I even try to do this when the person is an "enemy" or "without feeling."

Brightest Blessings!

(love the "sounds" of the Kanary! have read MANY of your posts!)

[Kanary]

29. Hi, Behind the Ageis!

Welcome to DU!

:hi: :hi: :hi:

:toast: :toast:

Beautiful post! Balm for a very injured soul......

Unfortunately, our society, and our Party, aren't ready for this level of maturity...

:cry:

Thanks for your very kind words....... very deeply felt.....

Kanary, who bets you even know "active listening" :hi: :thumbsup:

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Thank you Kanary!

I agree with you that many are not ready to be open to others. As long as there are those of us out there, then we can make a difference. As long as we have women like Teresa, then there are role-models for women AND men! WE will make our own way in the world!

Brightest Blessings!

[Karenina]

31. WOW!

YOURS is a super post adding weight to Zomby's insightful OP! Thank you and Welcome to DU!!! :party: :toast: :party:

[Behind the Aegis]

57. Thanks!!

I have had a few pretty rough weeks, so I really appreciate the warm welcome and kind words. I have lots of thoughts on issues concerning women. What is sad though is people do not realize that "slams" on women don't degrade just women, they degrade and disgrace men! WE as a race, may not agree on everything or even want the same thing, but when it is all boiled down, we are more alike than different. We should seek out what makes alike and celebrate that which makes us different! :)

Brightest Blessings.

[antigone382]

46. I hate when people use the word "gay" as an epithet.

I work in a bar, and two of my bosses are gay. They're both good guys who are knowledgeable and hard-working. To these two guys' faces, people are nice, but a lot of the other employees, both the men and the women, can't have a conversation with them without bringing up some stupid gay stereotype; and are all too quick to snicker behind their backs. It really pisses me off the way that some guys seem afraid that if they get too friendly, people will think that they're gay too. What's more I know if there was a lesbian woman working there a lot of women would feel the same way.

I'm a straight white woman, but I would never avoid a lesbian out of concern that people might mistake me for "one of them." If others assume that I'm a lesbian, so be it. I personally don't view it as an insult, and I'm not going to get all hot and bothered about it.


You can't claim to be tolerant and accepting, and look down on people at the same time. You can't treat people like one aspect of who they are, whether it be race, gender, religion, or sexual orientation, is the sole determining factor of his or her personality. It's high time we started judging people on the content of their character; or better yet, not judge them at all.

Edited for insane run-on sentences and other grammar goofs.

[noiretextatique]

55. thanks so much for adding those components to ZW's discussion

i'm a black woman, and it's really uncanny how other black women i know experience the same shit in the workplace that i do...it just can't be coincidence. funny how certain patterns and expectations are transmitted culturally, and therefore tend to be acted out by all those affected by the culture. in my case, my "attitude" is my defense against certain other attitudes and expectations.
btw, when it comes to behaviorial expectations based on race, white women are players of that game too.

[Behind the Aegis]

62. Random thoughts

I am glad you appreciated my additions. Some of it comes from my 'study' of diversity and some it comes from watching my best friend, whom happens to be a black woman. She is not shy about pointing out things to me, that sometimes I would miss because I am not looking through the eyes of a black woman.

I always find it strange how people liked her because she was funny (and she is a hoot), but when she was serious, they actually feared her?! It always left me scratching my head in disbelief.

Her rule is: "as a black woman, I must always be one step ahead and know what is happening behind my back!" She is a wise woman!! I love her as a sister and she has tough me much about issues I wouldn't normally have access to.

Brightest Blessings!

[Kanary]

67. Yes! That "fear" thing is *very* real.

"as a black woman, I must always be one step ahead and know what is happening behind my back!"

So very true, and think about the extra energy and stress that entails. *Always* being "on your toes" takes its toll.

Small wonder so many of us are very tired, and close to the edge so much.

You're very fortunate to have someone who is able to not only be so aware of it, but to be able to verbalize it to you!

:toast: to your friend!

Kanary

[wickerwoman]

28. Thank for this ZW.

The other code word that gets my goat is men are "stoic", women are "passive aggressive." If something happens to upset you and you don't want to talk about it (or talk to the person that upset you) if you're a man, that's something worth praising, but if you're a women you're "doing the girl thing" "acting childish" and "being passive aggressive."

:Grrr:

One step at a time though.

[vetwife]

33. Love this powerful and insightful thread !

I have been called everything THK has been called except foreign born. It is not easy being a women, especially an outspoken woman. I am sure it is not easy being a man, but somehow labels are so easily attached to women. The little woman. Know it all Bitch. Bitch period irks me. That is saying I am a dog. Comments like, "You should listen to your husband more". And the hormonal attributes for a woman's opinion. OMG. Men have been brought up and women too, to believe that a woman's place is in the home. Many have been brought up to think a woman's job is only in the bedroom and kitchen and she should concentrate on tending to the home, whether she worked or not. This is in many ways saying a man can't tend to a child or keep a house or cook and the truth is, many can do that job better than some women. Brains and expression of thought should absolutely be equal. Women are to blame for a lot of this. They need to quit this manipulation game playing and acting dumb and speak up and have some self worth.

I was taught at a very young age, to not depend on a man for a living. To be independent. And if I was lucky enough, I would find love to share and someone to appreciate my mind and contribution to the world. After two strikeouts, I did find such a person. My husband who is a combat vet, a man in every sense of the word, and confident enough to not only want my opinion me but encourages my opinions and the right to use them publicly. I think I nailed it. A man who calls women names for opinions is not confident in his own opinions and ego and therefore bashes someone he has been taught is a lesser person.

Interesting thread. Thanks

[Stockholm]

32. Well said!!! n/t nominates for frontpage

[frank frankly]

34. well done. good food for thought.

i only wish for some zomby coffee to go along with it...

:donut:

[Zomby Woof]

36. That can easily be arranged

:donut: :-)

[DemonFighterLives]

35. I try hard to be PC

And respect many other points of view. Theresa is a great person( I was going to say woman). :)
I really appreciate the DU Women! They are the greatest and can help form a sensible Democratic Party.
Not looking for flames here, but there are stupid people of all races, sexes, or whatever. Everyone gets slighted at one time or another even if they hold a high degree of intelligence.
Go Theresa Heinz and John Kerry!
Make this a better world.

[Lerkfish]

38. I agree with you, except the part...

..where you assume all men are guilty of it, and go even further to imply that if someone doesn 't think they are guilty of it, they are even more guilty of it.

"all men are scum" is just as bad as labeling an intelligent woman "opinionated".

So, I agree with your points, but I think your targeting is too indiscriminate.

[knitter4democracy]

39. Oh, I was going to post something today too

I am so tired of the woman-bashing on these boards too. If I see any woman (freeper or not) called a bitch or a ho, I'm going to have to leave for a few days to calm down.

[LWolf]

40. As a woman

with a lifelong rep as being too blunt and too demanding, I appreciate this.

In my professional life of endless staff meetings, this reputation has played out in some interesting ways. Often, I don't offer any input at all, because others are intimidated by it. When I do, I get the following responses:

If it is a hot-button topic, the boss will "ignore" me as he asks for "feedback" or "input." If I give feedback or input, he drawls sarcastically, "Tell us how you REALLY feel, LWolf." The rest of the room is divided into those intimidated, those offended, and those ducking their heads and smirking, because I said what they wanted to, but didn't.

[Kanary]

51. "I said what they wanted to, but didn't"

I found myself thinking about this when I woke up.

I remember a time when feminists used to support each other. I didn't realize at the time we were courageous... it was just the right thing to do.

Now I commonly see what you are illustrating here, and I wonder if the smirking ones will ever give us acknowledgement and credit for speaking up for them?

Doubtful.

Here's to calcium.

:toast:

I thank you for your open words.

Kanary

[LWolf]

56. Some do now...later, privately.

Will it ever be done publicly, or will they ever feel comfortable speaking up for themselves?

When they can do so without the comparison Zomby drew here. When they feel accepted and "safe" being assertive, honest, and decisive.

It takes time, and more of us to be willing to be assertive, honest, and decisive no matter what they call it.

:hi:

[Kanary]

60. Understood. However, the irony is we are never "given" safety.

We create it by supporting each other, and learning from each other.

If they're waiting for you to create that safety for them, or for the men to "grant" it to them...... well, it's gonna be a L-O-N-G wait.

I'd like to say that *maybe* men will start speaking up and helping to create that safety. But, given that we can't even accomplish that on DU, it's one more thing I'm not holding my breath for. :(

Maybe, one day, we'll all realize that we're all in this together, and stop with all the fractionalizing.

Heh... I'm remembering some fine images (memories aren't something that work for me a lot anymore... ~~chortle~~, so please bear with me.....)

I remember being at a huge women's rally in Berkeley, and dropping my son off at the child care corner, which was completely staffed by....... men. :)

I remember walking down the Ave in Berkeley, and passing a bake sale, all good baked and being sold by men, in support of a women's project.

Once upon a time, we were actually working together, for the benefit of all.

Now, 30 years later, we're still struggling over damaging words.

I think I need one of those male-baked brownies......

Kanary, wondering if men will ever really consider women to be their sisters.........
edited to say....... where's my manners...... thank you for all you are doing to speak up AND create as much of that safe atmosphere as you can. I appreciate what you are doing! :hug:

[noiretextatique]

58. lwolf...this is the story of my life too

:toast:

[LWolf]

75. The more of us out there

willing to be honest when we're called blunt, etc., the sooner we all evolve!

:toast:

[NewJeffCT]

43. good post, good points, but

While I agree that a lot of men (and some women) think of an "opinionated" woman as an aggressive, demanding bitch, I do not think it applies to all men and probably it applies to more than 1 in 12.

However, we're also a quiet minority of men.

I do think that it is slowly changing and will continue to slowly change over the next 10-15 years. While I know some would prefer it to change faster, it is changing. It is an evolutionary change, though...If you look back to the 1980s, how many women were in Congress & the Senate & held governorsips? A lot fewer than today. Are there enough women in Congress? Not by a long shot, but it is more than 15-20 years ago, and I expect there will be still more women in Congress in another 15-20 years.

I think once we regularly see women in Congress & the Senate, as governors, in high positions in the business world, etc, the attitudes will also change in more and more men. Now, if you see a woman Senator on TV, it is still somewhat rare. Maybe in 15 years, a woman senator will be taken for granted? I think the younger generations are generally much more open-minded about this, just as they are about gay rights & interracial marriage/dating.

It will take time, but times are changing.

[Cybergata]

44. Thanks for starting this thread.

I've enjoyed all the input I've read so far.

When I was 18, my mother warned me that shouldn't always beat my boyfriend in card games or other games. At the time I couldn't fathom why anyone would want to have the other person "let them win." I honestly felt bewildered by what my mother said to me.

That was in 1971. I see girls doing this same thing today. It is very sad. The answer some of my 13year old, young women give to me when I confront them about this is that they don't care if they win or lose, but the guys care... so it isn't a big deal. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! :hippie:

[Tsiyu]

45. I Love You ZombyWoof

Been struggling with this at work. As a female musician, it is almost as hard to be respected as it was when I was in talk radio ( a TOTALLY paternalistic haven for guys). I remember a phone convo with Sean Hannity about an important legal issue, and all he could ask me was "Are you a Babe? I heard you're a real Babe." Screw the issue, as long as I was eye candy.

With the music, I so cherish the men who respect my experience and who don't immediately say I'm a disagreeable bitch if i disagree or know more than they do. As I told one punk this week, "I was playing guitar five years before you popped out and started sucking your mama's titty." If he can't understand why I would have the AUDACITY to have some knowledge about music that HE doesn't have, I don't take it personally. It's his loss.

But it really irks me that you can be nice and agreeable all day, and then you give them ten seconds of "No, Dude. That's not right. In my experience doing this will produce a better result." Instead of listening to you, they claim to have "known that all along" or they go behind your back and call you a bitch for having a ten second long opposing viewpoint. Men sometimes seem to be so weak and self-absorbed and convinced that NO woman could possibly know as much as they do. It is the saddest fact of life I know. A waste by all standards.

[Zomby Woof]

76. wonderful post!

And back atcha on the subject line. :loveya:

[Cleita]

47. I agree about the perjorative adjectives changing the meaning

of a noun. Look what Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter have done to make the word liberal almost equal to being a skank. Sexists and racists do the same. Remember Ann Coulter referring to swarthy men as potential terrorists?

[chiburb]

49. Well, Zomby... You'll REALLY enjoy this thread:

I was watching CNN earlier, and they cut to Kerry on the campaign trail just as he was about to take questions from the audience. Suddenly he stopped and looked over at Theresa, who appeared to be moping on the sidelines. Then Kerry apologized and introduced her to make some statement on Health Care. She then commenced to ramble and mumble, and Kerry behind her looked mortified. Just as she seemed to have found her way back to the point, CNN tired of it and cut back to the studio, and on to other stories.

Is this much Theresa really necessary?

It looks to me like she is fatigued and put upon, so send her back to PA for a rest - please!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x610625

(Btw, Your OP was right on!)

[antigone382]

50. Kick

Kick Kick:kick:

[antigone382]

52. Zombywoof I want to have your fetus

:yourock:

[nini]

53. I lay a big kiss on you if you were here!

Very well said and thanks from all of the 'opinionated' women out there!!

oxoxo

:loveya:


Gina

[ScreamingMeemie]

61. Thanks Zomby. She said what the rest of us have been screaming to

to a community of the selectively deaf ever since we were old enough to form those opinions. :hi:

[bushwakker]

63. This campaign is not about Teresa Heinz-Kerry

Your points are well taken and your position is well presented. However is this the time to be going back and forth about this subject? My problem with Ms Heinz-Kerry is that she comes off to most people (not me however) as weird and she is a flat out liability to this campaign. This campaign is not about her and I've had enough of having to spend a few days putting out her brushfires. She needs to be seen and not heard from now until Nov 3rd. Then we can all celebrate the unique presence and spirit she will bring to the first ladyship - but until then she needs to tone it wayyyy down.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

65. "She comes off to most people as weird"?

Is there some all important earth-shattering (coughcoughbullshitcoughcough)poll I've missed somewhere?

She doesn't sound weird to me. She sounds like she's as pissed as I am about the shambles that this country is in.

I'm sick and tired of the "Women: Know your place" attitude that kept Congress from even listening to Hillary Clinton's health care proposal. I want to puke every time I see a "Laura is a Lady" bumper sticker.

We've just endured four years of being told (and occasionally forced), to just shut up and let the repunklicans have their way with America, and look where it's gotten us. What's so threatening about a woman standing up for the rights of citizens? Is it embarrassing because so few men have dared?

[Beaverhausen]

66. You beat me to it!

Just what has she done that is so weird? What has she said?

:eyes:

[bushwakker]

68. We'll have another four years of it

if we have to endure a weekly T H-K "incident". The focus should be on Kerry - not Teresa. She needs to figure this out and soon. Given what I've seen so far I'm quite certain she's a campaign train wreck in the making.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

74. But you haven't answered my question...

or Beaverhausen's.

What's so "weird" about what she said?

She's made it quite clear that she's campaigning for her husband. She's outspoken about issues that are important to democrats...issues that many have been reluctant to discuss, making them look like wimps.

I guess it was pretty "weird" when Frederick Douglass spoke out against slavery. And Susan Anthony certainly was "weird".
I suspect there are a substantial number of men and women who'd prefer to have an outspoken First Lady in the White House over a Stepford wife any day of the week.

I know I would.

[LWolf]

71. I've gone back and reread

Zomby's post 3 or 4 times now; as far as I can tell, his post is NOT ABOUT THE CAMPAIGN. If it were, it probably would have been posted in GD'04. It's not really even about THK. He used what she said at the convention to make his point, which is about sexist adjectives and damaging stereotypes, and whether or not we are, intentionally or not, supporting those stereotypes. The fact that THK said it doesn't make it any less valid a point.

If I understood Zomby's post, this was the point of the thread:

we still have much to learn about how to treat one another (yes, this applies to me in multitudes), and just how awesome is our responsibility in mastering the powerful subtleties of language. A person's humanity hinges on it - hers, his, and yours.

Teresa Heinz Kerry said in 32 words what women have known all too painfully for their entire lives. But I bet not one man in a dozen even faintly understood. The double-standard is alive and well, and lives inside your mouths and heads. It really isn't as hard as it sounds to evict it, or make it pay some seriously prohibitive rent.

And I believe you just made his point for him, more than once; you didn't even faintly understand:

"This campaign is not about Teresa Heinz-Kerry"

and you just demonstrated an example of "latent hostility towards a woman defying her "place". Or just as bad, a woman defying her expected "role" as subservient, meek, and deferential to her male bettors:"

I've had enough of having to spend a few days putting out her brushfires. She needs to be seen and not heard from now until Nov 3rd.

No woman needs to be seen and not heard.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

69. Zomby...right on!!!

I get tired of the double standards.
The women in my household love Theresa because she is outspoken and the current crop of naysayers are pissing us off.
Thank you!

[Jade Fox]

70. Why do so many insulting terms used about women imply they sleep around?

Posters on this board routinely use the terms "tramp" "slut" and "whore" when
discussing women they don't like.

My, how the double standard prevails, even among those who don't consider
themselves to be conservative/reactionary.