is Cuba really that bad?

[mark414]

minus castro's zero tolerance towards free speech, and his treatment of those who violate it, is cuba really that bad?

they've got great health care, a 100% literacy rate, and killer cigars!

though i will say i'm very unknowledgable about what goes on there...perhaps someone who is could educate?

[terrya]

1. Piss poor record on human rights. Castro's treatment of gays is a disgrace

Deplorable.

[TahitiNut]

11. Regarding "human rights" ...

Which country has a higher rate of imprisonment, Cuba or the US?
Which country has a higher rate of capital punishment, Cuba or the US?

:shrug: Pot. Kettle.

[Ducks In A Row]

83. what! you want honesty and fairplay in regards to Cuba

ha ha ha ha ha

... <sigh>

[NewJeffCT]

2. Know some folks who went

Said they never felt safer... granted, they go to out of the way places in the Caribbean & central America.

[K-W]

3. this is an easy question to answer, of course not,

because the demonization has been so extreme.

[CaTeacher]

4. When I was in Europe--I met

many people from Cuba (it is very common for Cuban scientists to come to Europe to exchange scientific ideas and to do research). These were great people--and invariably I felt bad that our government has caused so much trouble in Cuba.

Are we right to hate them and try to bring them down just because they have a communist government? I say no. I would love to go and visit Cuba someday--so I hope we normalize our relations with them soon.

[mark414]

5. i have a hard time hating castro

even though, as noted above, his human rights record is abysmal. but i have such an admiration for che guevara, it sort of extends to castro too...

if he was gone, or stopped being a human rights asshole, cuba would be awesome.

i'm going to try to go there to study abroad for school (believe it or not, my school offers such a program...)

[Ducks In A Row]

6. his record isn't any worse than the saudis are

[noiretextatique]

54. or our own n/t

[K-W]

7. He also has a good argument, not totally correct, but worth noting

that the US constantly trying to overthrow him and destablize his country has forced him to be harsher and more violent that he wants to be

[Jack_DeLeon]

105. I dont really know why so many people like Che...

IMO I think the reason Che is popular is all marketing. If someone didnt slap his face on a red t-shirt no one would have cared about Che.

I do sort of like Castro on the other hand, he was actually sucessful while Che never was.

I think its pretty sad that our government snubbed Castro back in the day, I think he could have been a good ally to us.

[allemand]

142. Che was an idealist, Castro is a politician n/t

[Judi Lynn]

9. Great to see your post.

The chance to see Cuba could be sooner than you'd think. The Senate and House of Representatives work yearly on getting the votes they need to blow past _Bush's veto to their moves to drop both the travel ban and the embargo.

They will be working on it again this fall. It's a subject which won't be dropped, no matter how many right-wing looney toon pResidents appropriate the White House.

Each time the votes come up, there's a larger number of votes favoring normalizing relations with Cuba. Although the vote to do this was there the last few times, it hasn't been the number needed to void a veto, and _Bush had the amendments killed in committee and most of the American public knew absolutely nothing about it.

[TahitiNut]

8. Let's use Busholini "Logic" ...

Isn't Cuba and the world better off without Batista? :evilgrin:


After all, Batista was very bit as guilty of crimes against his own people as Saddam - and he exported his predation, too. He also "sponsored" and provided a haven for international criminals and organized crime. :shrug:

Funny how the GOP only subscribes to such "principles" when convenient.

[oasis]

88. But...but..commies are bad and they hate religion. Bautista attended mass.

:spank:

[Dangerman]

138. Who the hell is Bastista?

[Vladimir]

10. Given the context, of course not

Three quick points, because there are people here a lot more knowledgable on the subject than me:

1) When discussing Cuba, the only really valid comparison is with the rest of South America - its simply unfair to discuss it in the context of developed European social democracies or the US for example. Although on health care provision and primary education Cuba beats the US hands down. By comparison to South American countries, and taking into account 40 years of crippling sanctions, life in Cuba is by no means as bad as people make it out to be.

2) When discussing human rights, one is compelled to point out that being under the constant threat of attack by the US can tend to make countries a little less liberal in their laws. As the US and UK have amply demonstrated since 9/11, habeas corpus and free speech fly out of the window once the country is under threat. And Cuba is under a whole lot more threat than either the UK or the US. Besides, once again when compared to a lot of South America, Cuba is no worse and in many cases much better in its human rights record.

3) Cuba's aid work to the third world, in terms of provision of doctors and vaccines for next to nothing is unparalleled. Unlike the UK,US or EU, Cuba does not tie aid to privatisation and reconstruction.

[Bridget Burke]

12. Some bad things, some good.

From Cubans I've met, and Americans who'd been there. (Artistic types used to be able to visit more easily--both ways; it wasn't Castro's government who stopped the visits.) And there is some freedom of artistic expression. No paintings saying "Death to Castro"--but works critical of, say, excessive bureaucracy. And lots of non-political art full of beauty and humor.

I got the impression that many Cubans would like things to get better. (Wouldn't everybody.) But they don't want to go back to the old days.

Here's the official Cuban website (English version): www.granma.cu/ingles/

Take it with a grain of salt. But everything goes better with a bit of salt!

[UdoKier]

17. DELETE ME - DUPE

Sorry.

[K-W]

19. Yay, communist bashing.

Always fun on DU.

[UdoKier]

20. I'm not bashing communism or communists.

I'm neither a proponent or a detractor of it. I think Cuba is a mixed bag, and Granma is propagandistic. That is not bashing. I lived almost 4 years in Miami. I know about Castro-bashing. I had WAY more than my fill of it.

I think that anti-communism and anti-socialism is just plain wrong. If there are facets of that system that have worked in other nations, we should emulate them.

In the same way, our worship of the unfettered free market is insanity. It clearly needs to be reined in. The best, freest, most prosperous countries in the world have invariably used a mix of free-market and socialist policies. I'm so sick of the idea that you must be either a capitalist or a communist with no in-between.

[K-W]

21. This post sounds reasonable, your other didnt.

"official propaganda outlet of a COMMUNIST government"

You even emphesized the word communist. The government having communist ideals has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of its information.

[UdoKier]

23. The emphasis is about US attitudes

and the danger of being perceived as a sympathizer.

Granma *IS* a propaganda outlet, every bit as much as Fox news is one.

I have a wife and kids to think of. I don't want to get in trouble with AssKKKroft for visiting sites out of curiosity when I don't have any allegiance to their ideals.

Many people still equate "communist" with "traitor" and "anti-American". That's not my fault. 50 years of propaganda has a pretty strong effect on a populace.

I don't know to what degree AssKKKroft & co. monitor those who visit such sites, or how many visits it takes to trigger an investigation, but I don't want to take chances.

Sorry if you took it as a slam.

[K-W]

29. Thanks for the clarification.

I misunderstood.

[Mika]

34. If you're worried about arrest here, in the US, for browsing Granma..

.. Then you should start a thread..

"Is America really that bad?"


-

FYI, I check Granma every day, and have since I got a PC (mid/late 90's).

[noiretextatique]

55. HELLO...i think that thread is long overdue

pot, meet kettle :D

[UdoKier]

18. I visited Granma once.

Reading it, I found it to be very propagandistic. It's not subtle like the corporate propaganda in our media. Of course there was also a grain of truth. But realizing that this was the official propaganda outlet of a COMMUNIST government, I thought better of surfing there again, lest AssKKKroft's goons come and get me...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. Compared to what?

Compared to Sweden. Yeah, pretty bad. Compared to Haiti, Guatamala, Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Columbia, Peru, or a whole flock of "free" capitalist 3rd world countries, including our latest infliction of "liberation", Iraq, no. In fact, the literacy rate and health care in Cuba is better than in many American states.

[Mika]

22. Wrong! Cuba's stats are better than or = to most of the west

Learn from Cuba
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

Of course, we all know that it takes a real evildoer to force high quality health care on poor families and world class education on a populace that doesn't want high quality health care or education for their kids. :crazy:




Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Well, we mustn't forget that Fidel has a beard!

When I stupidly joined the marines in 1961 and was in boot camp and Fidel was the enemy flavor of the week, we were told by a Captain in one of those "Why We Fight" propaganda sessions, that we should be prepared to shoot Cubans because they were all commies and Fidel had a beard.

It was about then that I began to think that the mistake I had made was even bigger than I first thought.

[JanMichael]

92. Bingo. Same as when we compared the USSR to the US.

A comparable country to Imperial Russia in the first quarter of the 20th century was Brazil.

Who fared better?

And to compare Cuba to the US is ludicris, Haiti? Sure. The Dominican republic? Ok. The US? BS.

[UdoKier]

14. It's very poverty-stricken.

Most of the cars on the road are over 40 years old, and the beautiful old city of Havana is crumbling.

It's not the nazi nightmare the Miami Cubans would have you believe, but it is not a place most of us would want to live in...

[Mika]

27. Wrong. There are no new AMERICAN cars. Plenty of others

GAWD. The brainwashing runs deep.

There are plenty of new roads and new cars in Cuba. Just none of it American made.

Millions of tourists from all over the world visit Cuba every year (except Americans, who are banned by their own govt). These tourists rent new cars (Fiats, Peugeots, Diawa, and others not sold in the US) and can drive wherever they want to. I have done so myself.

The US media like to show Americans all of the old US cars, but the majority of cars in Cuba are not American made.



Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance!

[ilovenicepeople]

50. I've laundered your brain for you that will be $5 bucks thank you

Has anyone ever heard an honest statement about Cuba from someone that hates(HATES!!!) Cuba?

[JDPriestly]

150. I have.

I met some Cubans in Mexico a few years ago -- artists, some of them very young. They hated Castro, his regime, everything about it.

[Kanary]

51. It occurs to me the US would do well to keep running older cars

Our disposable society isn't exactly a great selling point.

Kanary, who owns an old heap......

[UdoKier]

68. Newer cars are much safer, more fuel-efficient and pollute less.

Older cars are already recycled to a degree, they could be recycled to an even greater degree.

And in spite of the prior poster's comment, car ownership is much less widespread in Cuba than here. Good for the environment, though...

[Mika]

71. In spite of??

"And in spite of the prior poster's comment, car ownership is much less widespread in Cuba than here."


Nowhere did I ever say that level of car ownership in Cuba approaches that of the USA. Please try to actually read my posts, and please, don't attribute comments I never said to me. Thanks.

[gpandas]

74. funny how the truth...

stops them cold, eh?

[Mika]

76. No other country comes close to the US's car per capita ratio

It would be simply ridiculous for anyone to suggest that Cuba, or any other Caribbean country, comes close to equaling the US car per capita ratio.

No country does.

[UdoKier]

77. And yet your post implies that.

Wrong. There are no new AMERICAN cars. Plenty of others

GAWD. The brainwashing runs deep.

There are plenty of new roads and new cars in Cuba. Just none of it American made.

Millions of tourists from all over the world visit Cuba every year (except Americans, who are banned by their own govt). These tourists rent new cars (Fiats, Peugeots, Diawa, and others not sold in the US) and can drive wherever they want to. I have done so myself.

The US media like to show Americans all of the old US cars, but the majority of cars in Cuba are not American made.

Your post implies a chicken in every Cuban pot, and a new Fiat in every garage. I have no stats on car ownership throughout the Caribbean, but I would imagine that in Cuba it is lower than in Puerto Rico or the Dominican.

There is a reason an estimated $1 bil per year is sent to Cuba by family and friends here in the states. The Fidelista system is not adequately providing for their material needs.

I've tried to be evenhanded on this, and yet there are some here who are hell-bent on being apologists for Fidel and I'n not gonna go there.

Describing Cuba as some sort of egalitarian utopia is just as dishonest as those Miami Cubans who compare Fidel to Hitler and who think Cubans are deserving of their special immigration status, but Haitians (who suffer from truly dire poverty) are not.

Back in Miami I had a Fidelista co-worker who liked to brag that thousands of kids go to bed hungry without a home, but that NONE of them are in Cuba. That's lovely. And the Cubans are the best-educated in the hemisphere and everybody's got health care. Great. But where is your reward for all that study and work? A decrepit apartment? A ration of rice and beans?

But if you go carrrying pictures of Chairman Mao

You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow

[Vladimir]

81. "There is a reason an estimated $1 bil per year is sent to Cuba"

could that reason be... umm... sanctions? I don't care what system Cuba had, as long as the US trade embargo is there they are going to face problems.

I would be very shocked if Cuba came out worse than the Dominican republic in just about any stat you care to name.

[Mika]

84. As if immigrants from all over the Carib & Latin Ams don't send money..

.. back to their families.



UdoKier, post #77 -->"There is a reason an estimated $1 bil per year is sent to Cuba by family and friends here in the states. The Fidelista system is not adequately providing for their material needs."


Get real.

So then, just what does this remitted money buy in Cuba? Air? Or products available in Cuban stores and markets?




Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[Vladimir]

100. In my experience with the former Yugoslavia

the emmmigrants send more money back when the country is under sanctions. But this may not in fact be the same situation as in Cuba, I don't know.

[Mika]

107. Obviously UdoKier has never been to Miami-Dade..

.. where immigrants from all over the Caribbean and Latin Americas struggle every day at their jobs to scratch together enough money to send some back to their parents and families.

To accuse Castro of falling short of creating a utopia because Cuban families maintain connections, in travel, communication and remittances is pure nonsense.





Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[Mika]

82. Defending Fidel? Egalitarian utopia?

Typical attack..


"I've tried to be evenhanded on this, and yet there are some here who are hell-bent on being apologists for Fidel and I'n not gonna go there."



Where?

Please show me a link where I am "defending Fidel".




You did post that car ownership in Cuba isn't as widespread as the USA. So what? No country is. Is that supposed to be a stike against Cuba?




"Describing Cuba as some sort of egalitarian utopia is just as dishonest as those Miami Cubans who compare Fidel to Hitler and who think Cubans are deserving of their special immigration status, but Haitians (who suffer from truly dire poverty) are not."




Where?


Please show me a link where some I claim that Cuba is an egalitarian utopia.


You can't. Because I haven't.




Your accusations are dishonest.




Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[Kanary]

79. Well, I guess that's one more thing you affluent, new-car owners

can feel superior about, eh?

Gawddess, I want out of this society!

[lanparty]

85. The SAFEST transportation is ...

... BICYCLE!!! And that's the primary form of transportation there.

I bet a lot of classic car buffs would LOVE to visit Cuba just to see all those well maintained 50s classics that have never been subjected to road salts.

[Mika]

90. A lot of classic car buffs do visit Cuba. Just not a lot of Americans.....

Americans don't have the type of democracy that allows them the freedom to go to Cuba. Freedom like the citizens of most of the developed world have.




Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[sangh0]

15. Wedge issue

Thanks, but I'm not playing.

[onethatcares]

16. in my talks with an ex patriate Cubano

he describes a country that is poor in food, and poor in housing. He does say everyone gets an education and it's steeped in history, more the communist side than the democracy side(geez, they're meeting), the hospital/medical care is more or less to keep everyone working. The Cubans don't have many exports and sugar cane is a mainstay. We've been starving the country since what, 1960?, what good has it done? Sorry, just my take.

[Mika]

28. Your "take" isn't accurate

Sugar is not the mainstay of Cuba's economy. Tourism is. Like most of the Caribbean economies (the non bank sheltered segments).

Medical exports are at the top of their export list.

Cubans are not starving.

Cuba is a socialist democracy.


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall!

[lanparty]

86. I don't think Cuba is so bad ...

But it is NOT a democracy!!!! Castro runs things and Castro doesn't go up for election.

I have a lot of respect for Fidel Castro. He saw right through the US corporate imperial game. He saw it before we in America did. As a result, the corporations have conquered America (once again). Cuba is still free from their influence.

I would really like to see Cuba become a real Socialist Democracy with extensive free enterprise. I think they could be a real model for the world.

[Mika]

98. Nonsense. You don't know about Cuba's parliamentary system

Just because brainwashed Americans don't know doesn't mean it isn't so.

Maybe some should do a little non US gov research before spouting rightwing anti Cuba propaganda.



Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books




Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[Judi Lynn]

141. Sugar, probably NOT a mainstay this century, is it?

I read at least two years ago they are starting to phase out a lot of sugar production as they have found it's not as profitable as they would like now.

They closed a large sugar refinary, and started training the former workers there for new jobs in other areas.

As many of us learned a long time ago, it was cruel when large countries grabbed smaller ones and used them to produce whimsical, non-essential products for consumption back in their own countries, as it tied up enormous areas of land in the seized countries which should have been used to produce food for the citizens living there.

Also, the need to plunge ahead into developement of a sustainable drug industry was for survival,as the embargo has made it impossible for Cuba to acquire over half the important life-saving drugs used world-wide. They had to start trying to figure out how to develope their own drugs, and as you've mentioned elsewhere, have had enough success to be able to give these products to other poorer countries at affordable prices.

[dumpster_baby]

24. Cuba presents the "threat of a good example"

Obviously Cuba is no military threat to the USA. Anyone who would suggest that, now that the USSR is no longer an entity, is simply lying, just Bill Clinton lied about Cuba when he suggested it might be a threat, as has Bush, and virtually all other prominent Democratic politicians.

These politicians work for the corporate machine. Their primary allegiance is to it. It is no conspiracy--that is simply where their hearts and minds are. And they know that if they allow Cuba to be portrayed as what it really is, then that might help Cuba, might help them be stronger, more self sufficient.

But Cuba is a political threat. And if Cuba does make Socialism work, just 90 miles from America, and if Americans are allowed to travel there and see that it does work, then that is a threat to the corporate machine.

[lanparty]

89. Cuba is defying the WTO ...

... that is their REAL threat. And they have fought against Corporate Imperialism since Castro kicked them out.

[Mika]

99. Castro didn't kick them out. The Cuban people did!!

Jeez. Give credit where credit is due.


Y'all have Castro on the brain. Just like the reichwing wants you. That way its easier to ignore and demonize the accomplishments of an entire nation and its people.


Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that



Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[Screaming Lord Byron]

25. No, but it's no shining example either. Just like Mexico or anywhere else.

Live and let live, as they say.

[medeak]

26. killer music

musician family is dying to go.

Ever see Buena Vista Social Club?

[TaleWgnDg]

60. yup, I did . . .

F A N T A S T I C !! what great music . . . Ry Cooder did Cuban musicians and us, here, in the States, a great favor by getting those oldsters together for such a great album and short documentary.

Well worth the find!

[medeak]

66. ironically

same director is filming movie in my tiny remote town this week...with Jessica Lange.

[Joe Chi Minh]

30. Viva Fidel!

Castro - a kind of anti-Murdoch - protects the poor from the rich by force - just as hyper capitalism oppresses the poorest people by force. What price a modicum of human dignity for all?

Cuba may not as totally communist as Christ's early disciples, but is so much better than anything else, outside of Scandinavia - at least now that China's in bed with the Dirty Digger. Pardon me if I don't expatiate, but capitalism operates its own Tianamen Squares, if you get too outspoken - or the multinationals want a regime-change.

[newyawker99]

49. Hi KCabotDullesMarxIII!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[allemand]

31. Cubans are very well educated

It's a shame they have no democracy.

[Mika]

39. Uninformed & Wrong

Cuba has a more representative democracy than the US.

I guess that you think that Castro singlehandedly created a world class education and universal health care system in Cuba, and that the Cubans were somehow sitting around doing nothing while having these things forced on them. :crazy:


Why not do a little non us gov research?




Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[allemand]

45. BTW it's Turkmenistan that has the "most perfect democratic organization"

That's what they say. So it must be true...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x742794#743117

Democracy is not when people "vote", but when they have a real choice. When they have freedom of speech without the fear of being put into prison if they criticize the government. And when they are free to organize themselves in independent parties and unions.

[Vladimir]

47. As Moammar Gadaffi noted however

All democracy is a sham. And political parties doubly so.

[lanparty]

93. I'm sympathetic but I don't think Cuba is a Democracy ...

... I actually took a class from Harry Targ at Purdue and talked extensively with the man. I'm sympathetic towards Cuba, but I still don't think they're a "real" Democracy that could legitamitly "unelect" Castro.

I tell you what. If you can find Jimmy Carter on record praising Cuban Democracy, I'll buy in. Carter is pretty independent and has dedicated himself to Democracy and human rights worldwide. If Jimmy says it so ... it's so. ;-)

[seabeyond]

32. was saddam so bad, besides the rape rooms and torture rooms

all had health care, before the embargo and school was absolutely pushed on everyone

[K-W]

33. No, he wasnt.

Saddam wasnt as bad as the US made him out to be, neither is Castro.

[seabeyond]

36. the thousands and thousands and thousands that died

adn their families may not agree with you. yes these are bad men. does tht mean we conquer them, no

but i dont have to make a nontruth to be opposed to going into battle. these men are controlling their country thru fear and no individual rights and no freedoms. in an utopia...........but that isnt what this world is

[Vladimir]

38. Except that Cubans

would overthrow Castro, as they did Batista, were it not for the fact that the majority of them do not in fact feel opressed.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

40. What up? We hadn't heard from you in a while. n/t

[Vladimir]

41. Work got me down mate

I had some pretty tight deadlines and had to go into lurking mode. But I am now on a holiday for the next few weeks... :) I have even started posting in the gungeon. Sure sign of going mad, no?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

42. It certainly is. n/i

[Vladimir]

43. Btw. I love the new sig n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

44. Haha. Yeah I couldn't resist. Plus the other one was getting old. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

48. I'd sure like to see some articles about the thousands and thousands

of people who were killed by the revolutionaries during and after the Cuban revolution. Do you have any links, or should we just take your word for it?

Do you believe the CIA people who were mentioned in the following article had any idea what they were saying, or were they just blowing hot air? You may remember the CIA has always had a very agressive position toward Cuba after Batista was encouraged to leave.

CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER

NEW YORK, April 12 <2000> —

(snip)
THE CIA has long believed that while 1 million to 3 million Cubans would leave the island if they had the opportunity, the rest of the nation’s 11 million people would stay behind. While an extraordinarily high number, there are still 8 million to 10 million Cubans happy to remain on the island.

The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.

U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope.More important, Cuban media and Cuban culture long ago raised the banner of nationalism above that of Marxism. The intelligence community says the battle over Elian has presented Castro with a “unique opportunity” to enhance that nationalism.

There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials.
(snip/...)

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.html

[Cybergata]

62. Oh have easily we forgot, so easily lied to by our own government

Go back to the Spanish-American War. The U.S. went into the fight "supposedly" to help Cuba gain their independence from Spain. When the fight was over, the treaty between Spain and the U.S. pretty much gave the U.S. control over Cuba. The U.S. could veto anything that the Cuban government came up with. Cuba was the play ground of the rich and famous. It also was a big money maker for United Fruit and Sugar.

As revolutions go, the death count after the change in regime in Cuba was small. Castro came to the U.S. for help, but the government turned him down because he wanted to take all the land that was controlled by American interest and give it back to the Cubans. Fruit and sugar companies had taken control of most of Cuba's land as well as much of the arable land in Central America. They made lots of money, and the U.S. just wouldn't let big corporations loose so much land. Exploiting the poor in 3rd world countries isn't just the realm of European countries that had colonies all over the world. The U.S. has a shameful history of exploitation in Latin America.

Central America has much the same story, and CIA trained Guatemalans overthrew a president that was democratically elected by the people of Guatemala. He planned to nationalize all the U.S. corporate land so the people of Guatemala could have land to farm. The mistake the U.S. made is that the planes that flew through Guatemala City at the time of the coop were obviously U.S. planes. Also there were CIA agents who were disgusted with what was going on that they quit the CIA and wrote about the U.S. backed coop. We showed our true colors, as we did with the Bay of Pigs.

Castro originally did not embrace Marxism as Che did, but he turned to it after the U.S. turned him down. We could have been friends with Cuba from the start, but at the time of the Cuban Revolution no country was allowed to kick out the American Corporations that made lots of bucks by controlling all the good land & taking advantage of cheap labor source in the 3rd world countries of Latin America.

Many of the people who left Cuba after the revolution were people who were financially well off. Socialism has never appealed to the "haves" when it means equalizing the playing field.

Latin American history is fascinating. Most of what we hear about their history is very slanted, and very pro-American interest.

[Judi Lynn]

135. Excellent post, Cybergata! Latin American history has been avoided

in our country, and I'm just starting to find out why. It's simply horrendous reading what has been happening while we've blithely gone on our ways completely ignorant of what has been done in our names in this very hemisphere.

I'll bet you've already read it, but it bears repeating to point out the words written on Christmas Eve, 1897 by the Undersecretary of War, John C. Breckenridge:

.......The inhabitants are generally indolent and apathetic. As for their learning, they range from the most refined to the most vulgar and abject. Its people are indifferent to religion, and the majority are therefore immoral and simultaneously they have strong passions and are very sensual. Since they only possess a vague notion of what is right and wrong, the people tend to seek pleasure not through work, but through violence. As a logical consequence of this lack of morality, there is a great disregard for life.

It is obvious that the immediate annexation of these disturbing elements into our own federation in such large numbers would be sheer madness, so before we do that we must clean up the country, even if this means using the methods Divine Providence used on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

We must destroy everything within our cannons’ range of fire. We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army.
(snip/...)

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/bmemo.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A wry image we have to consider right here in our country is the strange pretense the first wave Cuban "exiles" who ran off during and immediately after the revolution keep in place pretending great respect for the Cuban national hero and patriot, José Martí. (You recall that the Cuban Miami hostage Elián Gonzalez was sent to the Lincoln Martí private school in Miami, owned, of course by an "exile," who also is a U.S. felon now.) They obscure the fact that José Martí was outspoken by his belief the U.S. was a beast, interfering in the internal affairs of Latin American countries.

If it was dead wrong over 100 years ago, it's safe to assume it's still wrong. In the meantime, Florida extremists try to affect respect and kindred feeling for a man who would have loathed what they did to his country before the revolution showed them the door.

[Bridget Burke]

53. "thousands and thousands and thousands"?

Exactly how many & please supply evidence.

[noiretextatique]

56. sounds like US, does it not?

until we get our own "bad men" under control, we are hardly in a postion to talk about "those men controlling their country thru fear and no individual rights and no freedoms" elsewhere.

[Cybergata]

63. Great Statement!

Indeed we do! :hippie:

[0007]

117. Do you have any idea who Fulgencio Batista and who Meyer Lansky

was, and what his role in Cuba was?

[Judi Lynn]

136. That post you addressed reminds me of a hilarious time many posters had

at another message board, at the old CNN US-Cuba Relations/Elián Gonzalez thread which ran for a coupla years.

A Miami "exile"-connected poster (obviously either an "exile" or one of their spawn) told us that Fidel Castro herded thousands of people into the national stadium where they were tortured and then murdered.

It took one very irate Chilean poster to set her @$$ straight on the idea she didn't appreciate one bit the Cuban-American stealing that event in history in CHILE and pretending it had happened in Cuba. The Chilean gave her enough time to go way, way out on a limb first, as she detailed all of the circumstances which actually referred to a tragic, infamous event in Santiago. Needless to say, that poster dropped out of sight, disappeared without a trace.


Ugly, isn't he?

Published May/June 2001


The Batista-Lansky Alliance
How the mafia and a Cuban dictator built Havana's casinos
By Matthew Reiss

.......Havana became the destination of choice for thousands of Americans, the famous and tourists alike. Tony Bennet sang at the San Souci; Ginger Rogers opened the Copa; Nat King Cole played the Tropicana. Frank Sinatra and John Wayne were regulars at the Hotel Nacional.

During the same period, however, the people of Cuba suffered. Government corruption was endemic, while in Havana's streets prostitution and poverty were rampant. In the countryside, the peasants were suffering as well; Batista poured the nation's wealth into the capital. He gave the gangsters millions in government funds for hotel construction and spent millions more reclaiming valuable waterfront real estate from the sea. Construction of Lansky's Riviera went for about $18 million, while the Hotel Continental cost $20 million. The $14 million Capri, which housed Trafficante's Red Room nightclub, was the only hotel that did not receive any money from the government.
(snip)

"When Castro came to power," says Wayne Smith, the former chief of the U.S. interests section in Havana, "the image of Havana was as the center of graft, corruption, vice and the Mafia. All the money in the country was siphoned off by Havana." After he took control, Castro announced that resources would be shifted to benefit those who had produced the wealth. Since that time, says Smith, "Havana has become quite run-down." Since 1959, the Castro government has concentrated its efforts on building rural schools and clinics.
(snip/...)

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,217,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you know, there's a ton of info. available on the crime life Lansky and his fellow slime balls had going in Havana through the generosity of U.S.-approved murderous, torture-fan Fulgencio Batista.

[0007]

144. .....and plays like "Gus & Dolls" even glamorized the underworld

to the delight of American entertainment while the average Cuban looked silly and Cubans like "Superman" performed nightly to the International crowd that loved live sex shows. I remembering seeing Debbie Reynolds at one of "Superman's" shows.

[Judi Lynn]

148. Here's a site which has lists of some of the wild life ongoing in Havana

before the Revolution. It damned well stunned me that this was going on there, but I've heard Havana described as the "Whorehouse of the Caribbean" TWICE in two different tv documentaries in the last year or so, referring to Batista's time.

Debbie Reynolds, huh? She was a biggie back then. Interesting.

On edit:

Whoops. Forgot the link:

http://cuban-exile.com/menu1/%21entertain.html

[0007]

151. Thanks for the link JudiLyn I'll through it and let you know

what I think. Right now my time is short.

[Judi Lynn]

153. Oh, it'll still be there, unfortunately!It's been around for several years

already. Posters at CNN's old message boards had a good hoot when one of our friends posted it there.

It really tends to support what you said about Havana as a very notorious place in the '50s.

The Mafia wasn't at all pleased to lose their easy pickin's in Havana, by all accounts.

[0007]

158. Have you ever run across anything on a big black Cuban named "Superman"?

After I scan the site I'll let you know. I just stepped in for a few minutes, and have an afternoon appointment. There are a few faces that do look familiar and stir old emotions trying to match the place and the time. Most of the stuff looks like the junket packet, not the high roller stuff that I was more intimate with at the time.

[Joe Chi Minh]

37. None so blind...

And who do you think put him there and protected him, Seabeyond..!

[lanparty]

94. Are the American occupiers so bad ...

... besides the tens of thousands of Iraqi dead, the lack of security, the torture rooms, the rape rooms, the systematic arrests and interrogations, the random killings, the lack of employment, the thuggish police squad, the lack of pride and dignity of being a subjugated people, the thiefs that the Americans appointed to run the country ....

How do you tell the difference between the "good guys" and the "bad guys"???? I certainly can't.

[madfloridian]

46. Cuba is being used as an election issue.

It has been forever. Floridians know that. Remember Operations Northwoods? I would not be surprised if Cuba were on the list of countries who need a regime change by us. We do it so damn well, don't we?
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html

[Yupster]

52. I've never been partial to the

whole President for life idea.

I was born in January 1959. I'm 46. Castro has been president since just a few weeks before I was born. That's ridiculous.

[Mika]

57. Wrong. Castro hasn't been president from '59. He was elected in 1976

Maybe try reading some of the links posted earlier in the thread. :think:


Castro went on to get his law degree after the revolution and the Bay of Pigs.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

Cuba is NOTHING like the picture US propaganda paints.


Too bad our own US government doesn't allow us US citizens the freedom to go and see Cuba for ourselves.



Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance!

[B. P. R. D.]

58. .

[TaleWgnDg]

59. uummmmm, you forgot . . .

great music!! Cuban Latin music, that is. And WOWZA antique pre-1960s American autos! Hot damn! B-)

[Cybergata]

65. Cuban modern jazz is awesome.

Cuba may not be perfect, but at least the state supports musician and artists. How many people in the U.S. want to cut off all government fund for the arts! That isn't a questions, but a statement since the NEA always gets dragged out as a waste of money by the Repubs. :hippie:

[peacetalksforall]

61. There are three Castros

. the one who overthrew a very corrupt government
. the one who took up with Communist USSR after (long story - involves the U. S. Mafia)
. the one who with his people survived after the Berlin Wall came down.

His record in the third state holds little reason for us to declare this nation off limits - especially after declaring a love affair with the People's Republic of China.

His record continues to be maligned after the fall of the Berlin Wall because of Cuban-Americans who have held our country and our Congress hostage while every other country in the world has and does business with them.

[Snow]

64. I had a grad student a few years ago who was a Khazak

physician. He took a master's in public health with me, went on to a doctorate in health services from somewhere on the east coast & is now back in Khazakstan, something like second man in the ministry of health, and working heavily with the area WHO rep, an old friend from my own years in grad school who is Afghani. Anyway, this Khazak physician was discussing whom he would build relationships with in order to develop his country's health infrastructure better, and he had a very good opinion of medical and public health training in Cuba. He said they do a lot of research and field projects in support of medical care and public health in poor countries around the world. It was complete news to me, and I have no way to confirm it, but it's interesting, eh?

[genius]

67. Castro kicked out the mob and our government got revenge

The embargo is the problem with Cuba. It would be more open if we would stop trying to destroy the country.

[JSJ]

69. it's better now than when santos trafficante and batista owned it

And if the US and other crime families would stop trying to destabilize it, it might even get a whole lot better.

[rman]

70. there's a shortage of medicines

healthcare in Cuba is great as long as it doesn't depend to much on medicine.
People are poor, but not as poor as the poor in the US; the poor in Cuba have homes and they don't starve to death.

[Mika]

73. The Cuban health care system stresses prevention & health

Alternative health care practices are integrated into the overall Cuban health care system. I remember reading an international survey several years ago that analyzed how many man made chemicals had been absorbed into the living human population. Cuba ranked best overall, with the least amount of chemicals in their population.

Drugs that are patented in the USA are hard to get, but Cuba makes their own generic brands quite readily.

[snippyMcNippy]

72. Cuba is fine. It's castro that is bad

If Cuba had an honest and fair leader they would prosper.

[Mika]

75. I guess that the US embargo (Helms-Burton law) has nothing to do with it?

<BLINDERS = ON>

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

78. Is America that good?

Among other things:

We have the highest teen pregnancy rate in the industrialized world.
We have one of the highest, (if not the highest), crime rate in the industrialized world.
We spend more on "defense" than a combination of most of the industrialized world.
We have one of the highest rates of people in prison.
We still suffer from the effects of racism.
We have troops stationed all over the world protecting our "Vital Interests" (corporate profits).
We are now engaged in a war allegedly to prevent "terrorism" that, in reality, is doing the opposite.
We have a crumbling social security system that offers much less than most countries of the 1st world.

etc, etc, etc.

But, we do have nicer cars than most Cubans.

[noiretextatique]

95. thanks for your grounding post, bandera

americans are quick to point the finger at other countries and their leaders, but not as eager to take a good look in their own backyard thanks to the propaganda we are fed about being "so great."
given your short list of how great we aren't, one wonders why so many seem to think we in a position to judge cuba.

[sir_captain]

111. I disagree

As liberal people who are attempting to be objective in our assesment of how people all over the world ought to be treated by their governments, I think we are in a fine position to both criticize our own government and Fidel Castro. Perhaps the Bush administration shouldn't judge Castro, but it appears that you are essentially advocating turning a blind eye toward human rights violations in Cuba simply because of our own lousy government.

[noiretextatique]

155. no, i'm saying that until we have no human rights violations in

our own country, we have no moral authority to point our fingers elsewhere. castro can respond to the charges of human right violations in his country by citing our own, as he did during the 2000 election regarding the disenfranchisement of (mostly) black americans.
see how that works?

[sir_captain]

80. I don't see how

one can separate Cuba from Castro's dictatorial policies on free speech, etc. Sure, they have nice cigars, etc, but that hardly makes up for what amounts to a huge human rights violation, don't you think?

[Mika]

96. So it was Castro who forced what Cubans have on them?

Cubans didn't speak up, demand, discuss, plan, build, and work to develop their high standard health care system? Castro forces this on an unwilling populace, or did the Cuban people build it against the will of "Castro's dictatorship"?

Same with their education system?

Cubans just sat around and did nothing to build out their complete social safety net?


Pure nonsense.



How the F do you think that these things (and much more) happened? It takes dedicated teachers, doctors, researchers, assistants, involved parents, and whole systems filled out with dedicated Cuban people working together - partly by speaking up and demanding the conditions that make it possible, and acting - to make all of it happen.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=


Check out these "violations" that I'm sure the Cuban people daren't speak up against ('cause you know that people really need to be forced to build, maintain, excell in, and accept world class health care and education for their extended families). <sarcasm off>

Learn from Cuba
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

[sir_captain]

106. Ironically, you have a very myopic view

though, since you seem to take criticism of Castro personally, I guess I understand why. I'm not really sure why you're so angry at me, though. Perhaps you're just rude to everyone.

I did not comment on Cuba's education or health care systems, but instead focused on rights violations, which, whether you like it or not, do exist. Gays are treated terribly in Cuba, and one has to look no further than Cubans braving shark-infested waters on rafts to see how progressive Cuba's emigration policies are.

I mean, come on, give me a break here. When Castro was younger and played baseball, he wasn't *allowed* to strike out--he got as many pitches as he wanted! The man is a dictator, plain and simple--he is an absolute ruler who does not abide by any sort of democratic election. And that, my friend, is the definition of a dictator. Has Castro been benevolent in some ways? Yeah, sure, but despite your incredibly righteous anger, he still supresses basic freedoms from his people, and in my book, education and health care do not justify lack of elections, etc.

[Mika]

109. 1st, Do some research on the US Cuban Adjustment Act..

.. then you'll see that Cubans get to stay in the US NO MATTER WHAT THEIR BACKGROUND IS (criminal) OR HOW THEY GET HERE

On the treatment of gays in Cuba,

http://www.aegis.com/news/lt/1997/LT970706.html

The most striking indication of that change is the government's decision to allow Doctors Without Borders, an international medical aid organization, to design and put in place a public health campaign to prevent the spread of AIDS on this island 90 miles off the Florida coast.
After a year spent diagnosing the problem, a Dutch-Cuban team this year began conducting seminars and distributing AIDS information brochures and condoms outside rock concerts and in homes. Cuban musical icon Pablo Milanes even gave a concert dedicated to AIDS awareness.
The regime of dictator Fidel Castro apparently did an about-face in dealing with AIDS, analysts say, less because of international criticism than pragmatism: Cuba--which lost its main trading partner and source of foreign aid with the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union--cannot afford to quarantine everyone infected with HIV, health care workers said.
Increasing international tourism encouraged by the government as a way to earn foreign exchange--combined with promiscuity here--also has raised concern that Cuba might be vulnerable to an outbreak of sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS.
-
"Condoms are fundamental to avoiding disease," said Yeni Ricardo, 24, as Rodriguez nodded in agreement. "I tell guys, 'If there's no condom, there's nothing' "--their partners will not have sex with them.
That attitude is common among young Cuban women, said Raul Acosta, 25, who bought a condom at the Sherezada bar. "A lot of my friends think that sex loses its beauty with a condom," he said. "But the girls worry about a lot. They themselves carry condoms in their purses."

The article explains that Cuba has done good work with the help of DWB during the "special period" of hardship and sanctions and since, and that prostitution is a natural symptom of increased tourism in general, but, the article states that prostitutes have a high awareness of AIDS prevention (they carry and insist on condom use according to the article). The HIV infection rates in Cuba bear this out.




Caribbean leaders search for ways to stop AIDS spread
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030705.waids0705/BNStory/International/

Caribbean leaders called AIDS the single biggest threat to the region's development and said Saturday finding cheaper drugs is the key to halting the spread of the disease.
About 500,000 people in the Caribbean have the deadly disease, threatening to cripple the labor force as it prepares for free-trade and increased competition, St. Kitts and Nevis Prime Minister Denzil Douglas told reporters on the final day of a Caribbean summit.
The number does not include Cuba, where infection rates are low.

http://www.cbcfhealth.org/content/contentID/1537&relArticleDisplay=5

Cuba maintains the lowest HIV/AIDS prevalence in the Western Hemisphere -- 0.03% of the country's population is estimated to be HIV-positive, compared with 0.42% of the U.S. population

On the right of the same page you'll see these stats,

HIV/AIDS infection rates in the Caribbean are among the highest in the world second only to Sub-Saharan Africa.
As of December 1999, there were 360,000 adults and children living with HIV/AIDS in the Caribbean. By the end of the 2000, that number had grown to an estimated 390,000.
In the English-speaking Caribbean, HIV/AIDS is now the leading cause of death among men between the ages of 15 and 44 years.
In English-speaking Caribbean, 35% of HIV positive adults were women.
Approximately one out of every 300 people living in the US Virgin Islands is living with HIV/AIDS.

[sir_captain]

110. Don't assume

that I don't know what you're talking about. Your arguments would be more effective if you didn't have such a condescending attitude. First of all, the US-Cuban Adjustment act is an agreement between the two countries, so to give Cuba and Castro all the credit for it is nonsense. Second, simply because Castro allows refugees to stay in the US AFTER THEY HAVE ALREADY GOTTEN HERE is utterly meaningless! If he let them go in the first place, you'd have a leg to stand on.

The AIDS awareness in Cuba is truly touching--it really is. And I'm sure Castro's recent increasingly liberal attitudes are a real comfort to those he incarcerated for decades simply because they were HIV+ and classified as undesirables.

[Mika]

114. The Cuban Adjustment Act is American law. Not an agreement

"First of all, the US-Cuban Adjustment act is an agreement between the two countries.."


No it isn't. The gov of Cuba states that it is recklessly irresponsible policy that attracts poor Cubans to the wealthy US on dangerous rafts.

Even Cubans who have failed a US immigration visa get to stay in the US if they make it here and no matter how, criminals, rapists, child molesters, etc.

The US offers Cubans over 20,000 legal visas per year (the US does the legal background search in Cuba)


Why don't you simply google Helms Burton law.



"Second, simply because Castro allows refugees to stay in the US AFTER THEY HAVE ALREADY GOTTEN HERE is utterly meaningless! If he let them go in the first place, you'd have a leg to stand on."


ROTFLMAO

You really don't know anything about this do you?


Come back when you do.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sir_captain]

126. You referred to Helms-Burton

I talked about Cuban emigration policy in general, of which wet/foot dry foot is a huge part. Frankly, you are the one who refuses to address any of Castro's misdeeds and steers the "discussion" towards subjects that weren't being previously discussed.

Also, comparing me to O'Reilly is a personal attack, which, while ironically something that O'Reilly would do is not allowed on DU.

[Judi Lynn]

137. Hi, Mika. I started trying to follow the discussion guy was attempting

with you, and it got so confusing I almost felt like giving up. My head got dizzy. So many words, so little meaning.

I breathed a sigh of relief when I saw your post above. It should be a misdemeanor for people to try to bluff their way through postings, don't you think? Jeezus H.

[sir_captain]

108. Answer these

since you've irritated me now with your petulant attitude, I'd be curious to hear you explain some of the following:

On March 18, 2003, 75 peaceful dissidents advocating democracy were rounded up, beaten, and sentenced to long prison terms in trials that "fell far short of international human rights standards" according to Human Rights Watch. This is not even getting into the fact that judges and lawyers are legally controlled by the government in the Cuban system, giving little credence to the impartiality of law in Cuba.

In general, Amnesty International "said it continued to note a shift from long-term imprisonment to other forms of punishment, including short-term detentions, interrogations, official warnings, threats, intimidation, eviction, loss of employment, restrictions on travel, house arrests, telephone bugging, and physical and verbal acts of abuse."

On April 28, 2004, a blind non-violent dissident was sentenced to four years in prison for simply "offending Fidel Castro."

Despite your lauding of Cuba's healthcare, AIDS patients have long been incarcerated in Cuba as "undesirables" which precipitated riots in 1996 as the patients demanded humane treatment.

The United Nations has made at least 3 resolutions condemning the state of human rights in Cuba in the last 6 years.

These are just a few of the many, many examples of issues in Cuba, though if you like, I can add some more. Frankly, while I'm sure you had a great time, your experiences in Cuba mean very little to me, as anecdotal evidence is essentially worthless.

[Mika]

112. Links

All of this is anecdotal without links and sources.

[Judi Lynn]

143. I've got an article which might shed some light, Mika.......

April 26, 2003

Cuba Crackdown:
A Revolt Against the National Security Strategy?
By ROBERT SANDELS

Since becoming principal officer at the U.S. Interests Section in Havana in September 2002, James Cason has increased official U.S. connections with Cuban dissidents. Entering directly into Cuba domestic politics, Cason helped launch the youth wing of the dissident Partido Liberal Cubano. Nowhere in the world, said Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque, would it be legal for a foreigner to participate in the formation of a political party. In October 2002, Cason invited a group of dissidents to meet with U.S. newspaper editors at his residence in Havana. Although it has become routine for heads of the U.S. mission to seek out dissidents, it was unusual to meet them at home.

Feb. 24 of this year, he participated in a meeting of the dissident Assembly for the Promotion of Civil Society at the home of prominent dissident Marta Beatriz Roque. Also present at the meeting were several reporters to whom Cason repeated his criticisms of President Fidel Castro's government and reaffirmed U.S. support for dissidents.

Cason organized two other such meetings at his residence in March even after receiving a formal complaint from the Foreign Ministry.

In a recent television interview in Miami, Cason said the help he gave dissidents was "moral and spiritual" in nature. But, according to the testimony of several Cuban security agents who infiltrated the organizations that received U.S. support, the Interests Section became a general headquarters and office space for dissidents. Some of them, including Marta Beatriz Roque, had passes signed by Cason that allowed them free access to the Interests Section where they could use computers, telephones, and office machines.

The State Department calls these activities "outreach." However, under the United States Code, similar "outreach" by a foreign diplomat in the United States could result in criminal prosecution and a 10-year prison sentence for anyone "who agrees to operate within the United States subject to the direction or control of a foreign government or official (Title 18, section 951 of the United States Code).
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/sandels04262003.html




James Cason, chief of the U.S. Interests Section in Cuba, waves the United States flag during a friendly women basketball game between the United States and Cuba, Tuesday Feb. 24, 2004 in Havana, Cuba. The United States won 73-37. (AP Photo/Jose Goitia)

Here's a page of photos of James Cason and an assistant entertaining Cuban peeps at the U.S. Interests Section in Havana.
http://www.cubasocialista.cu/texto/galer1.htm

Of note is this photo of Marta Beatriz Rocque and a U.S. guy. Did you read she was recently released from prison? She's one of the 75 rounded up for trial, on evidence gathered by informants over 10 years, her secretary being one of them who testified to Rocque's taking money over the years from U.S. sources for her "dissident" work.



You may also remember that when Cuba had to spray for dengue several years ago, countrywide, going to each house, Marta refused to allow them to enter her property. I thought that showed she really didn't hide in fear the way you'd expect someone who claimed to be persecuted.

[0007]

113. Hmmmm Do you have something to back up these assertions

and probably is nothing more than American propaganda with a tad of jealousy. Castro hasn't done anything close to Abu Ghraib.

[sir_captain]

116. Two wrongs don't make a right n/t

[Mika]

118. Links

Show us your sources.

[sir_captain]

124. Here's a few:

Human Rights Watch: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/03/17/cuba8126.htm
http://hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=cuba&document_limit=20,20
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/4/27/220014.shtml
Amnesty International: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr250172003
http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/cuba/document.do?id=80256DD400782B8480256E1A00561DF3
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/uncon41800nyt.html

The list could go on and on...

[0007]

119. Put up some links?

[Mika]

123. As usual

:shrug:

[sir_captain]

125. see above

have a little patience. some of us have things to do other than simply stare at our computer screens

[sir_captain]

127. Geez

give me a second--look above.

[sir_captain]

128. It's interesting to me

that you haven't replied nearly so quickly once I put up a few links...

Hmm...

[0007]

129. I think you run a three card monte game on 14th Street!

[sir_captain]

130. Haha

that's not a bad idea, really. I could use the extra cash.

[Mika]

131. Gotta eat. And there's a hurricane coming here

Gotta read your links too. I'll get back to ya.


Meanwhile, the USA is exporting 10,000 leg-irons to Riyadh.

I guess we have a leg to stand on (pun intended) when we accuse Cuba of rights violations.

Expanding Global Trade Supplies States US Condemned for Torture
(Washington, DC) – A new Amnesty International report charges that in 2002, the Bush Administration violated the spirit of its own export policy and approved the sale of equipment implicated in torture to Yemen, Jordan, Morocco and Thailand, despite the countries' documented use of such weapons to punish, mistreat and inflict torture on prisoners. The US is also alleged to have handed suspects in the 'war on terror' to the same countries.

The total value of US exports of electro-shock weapons was $14.7 million in 2002 and exports of restraints totaled $4.4 million in the same period. The Commerce and State Departments approved these sales, permitting 45 countries to purchase electro-shock technology, including 19 that had been cited for the use of such weapons to inflict torture since 1990.

The report – The Pain Merchants – also reveals that the US approved the 2002 export to Saudi Arabia of nine tons of Smith & Wesson leg-irons. Former prisoners in Saudi Arabia have stated that their restraints were stamped with the name of Smith & Wesson. In a 2000 Amnesty International report, Phil Lomax, a UK national who was held for 17 days in 1999, recounted how shackles used in Malaz prison in Riyadh, were made in the US: "When we were taken out of the cell we were shackled and handcuffed. The shackles were very painful. They were made of steel... like a handcuff ring. The handcuffs were made in the USA."

"Although torture is endemic in Saudi Arabia, Smith and Wesson had no qualms about exporting approximately 10,000 leg-irons to Riyadh, and apparently sharing this lack of concern, the Bush Administration approved the sale," said Dr. William F. Schulz, Executive Director of Amnesty International USA (AIUSA). "For decades, human rights groups and the US State Department have documented Saudi Arabia's cruel use of leg-irons and shackles to inflict torture and force confessions. With this shameful shipment, we can expect the torture of religious minorities and peaceful protestors to continue for years to come."

<http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/usa/document.do?id=F7CE0B13E65E100085256DF00050B882>

[sir_captain]

132. No doubt

the US does shitty things as well. Can't argue there.

Anyway, no hard feelings. Stay dry.

[Billy Burnett]

133. A little background info is in order here

Please read this whole story for a little background on how a tiny, embargoed, and poor island dealt with an unknown (at the time) potential epidemic that could have crippled the entire health care system and killed many many people.

But it didn't.

Any anti gay behavior of the Cuban government is intolerable and unconscionable, but we all know that anti gay and AIDS bigotry has reared its head all over the world at some time or another. The important question is, what is going on NOW in Cuba, and how does the government care for its AIDS patients.

Please read this remarkable story ...


Cuba's AIDS patient #1 dies
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/011.html

*snip*

CUBA'S AIDS POLICY TODAY

It's worthwhile looking at the progression that they were part of:

At the new stage of the program, people testing HIV+ and those with AIDS may -- as before -- receive complete residential care in one of Cuba's 14 provincial AIDS sanitoriums or, after a brief period of evaluation and education, they may opt to receive outpatient care from their family doctor, while maintaining most (but not all) the benefits formerly provided them in the sanitoriums.

This removes the one dark side of a program that otherwise was universally heralded for its effectiveness in slowing the spread of the AIDS virus.

The internationally recognized positive aspects of Cuba's program included:


* A well-functioning, national health-care delivery system with an emphasis on preventive care, and no cost to the patient.
* Cuba achieved the world's lowest rate of HIV infection from blood transfusions by halting importation of blood products while testing the country's entire blood supply and all new blood donations.
* Almost totally eliminating perinatal transmission by testing all pregnant women. (There have been only four cases of HIV positive pregnant women who chose to carry their babies to term, although this may increase slightly now that research has shown only 1/3 of such babies are born with the virus). Abortion is free, and generally recommended in the case of HIV+ mothers, but the choice is left to the woman.
* An extensive research program aimed at finding a preventive vaccine or cure, carried out at the facilities already investigating the use of interferon and other natural and synthetic drugs.
* Extensive (although not mandatory) testing of Cubans returning from long periods abroad, and routine testing for HIV when other blood tests are administered to the general population.
* Development of facilities and training of specialized staff to care for people from the time they test positive, including doctors, nurses, paramedics, psychologists and social workers.


The limitations of this program were primarily on the psychological and psycho-social level. The sanitoriums that were set up, while providing optimum overall care, were also highly paternalistic and imposed restrictions on patients' freedom of movement --less so over time, and for those who were deemed "responsible" -- but nevertheless galling to those who felt themselves capable of behaving in a mature and responsible way without someone supervising or judging them, and without being held accountable for the irreponsibility of others.

On the plus side, people testing HIV+ have been provided with above-average housing in pleasant surroundings, a high-protein diet, daily access to specialized medical care, recreational facilities and counseling in an attempt to create a stress-free environment. Medicines (like AZT, gancyclovir, etc. were studied and imported from abroad).

Patients are given regular blood tests and physical check-ups by medical staff who are on the alert for the first signs of any opportunistic infection which, if caught and treated early, can be controlled or eliminated.

But despite increasing liberty of movement as the disease became better understood, the sanatorial system still placed more restrictions on the patients' mobility than was warranted by the nature of its transmission. Even after health authorities learned that AIDS cannot be spread by casual contact, it was still treated as a highly contagious disease due to the simple fact that unprotected sexual relations -- the norm in Cuba, as elsewhere -- was the predominant mode of transmission.

An ethical dilemma plagued health authorities: How to protect the rest of the population from unnecessary risk (the responsibility of the Public Health Ministry) without imposing burdensome restrictions on those who carried the virus but were not yet ill?

A solution was devised by Dr. Jorge Perez Avila, medical director of the Pedro Kouri Tropical Medicine Institute, when he was named director of the sanitorium in 1989, in consultation with PWAs, especially those who formed the Grupo Prevencion SIDA (GPSIDA, or Aids Prevention Group).

The key factors in the new system, which safeguards public health but also permits ambulatory care for seropositive patients, is an education and evaluation program that enables the medical staff to demonstrate to health officials -- and to a general population nervous about the spread of the disease -- that most seropositives, once taught about the forms of transmission of their disease, and how to live with it (including their obligation to avoid placing anyone else at risk) can live normal lives outside the sanitoriums.

This evaluation system had to be accompanied by a series of other measures -- some requiring economic investment not easy to come by in the current period -- before outpatient care could be put into effect, however.

Among these were:

* Sanitoriums had to be built in each province so the patients would have access to the state-of-the-art care provided in the Havana sanitorium; these also had to be staffed, supplied (food, medicine, laboratories, transportation, fuel, work and recreation facilities, individual housing, furniture, etc.);
* Family doctors had to be trained in each community where seropositives would be living, so they could provide the day-to-day attention the patients had been receiving;
* Social workers and sexual education teams had to educate the communities and workplaces to which seropositives would be returning to prevent discrimination against them;
* A massive AIDS education program had to be developed throughout the country, so that responsibility for preventing the spread of the disease would not fall exclusively on those who already knew they were seropositive, but would be shared by the rest of the population. A second aspect of this program would be to complement the work being done in specific neighborhoods and workplaces, to teach the population as a whole to welcome and care for PWAs.

This latter step would have been impossible without the development of the patient-initiated and run GPSIDA -- PWAs like Reyanldo and Maria Julia who went out into the community, onto campuses, on radio and television, to spread the word that AIDS is here, it can be avoided, you needn't be afraid of People With AIDS but you should be afraid of the disease itself.

Seropositve members of GPSIDA, at least in Havana, are the ones who inform people of their positive test results, provide counseling, support and education.

Under the current policy, most people testing positive will be given a period of testing and orientation in a sanitorium, although based on pre-evaluations and GPSIDA's education program, some may pass immediately to ambulatory care.

Not surprisingly, given the economic conditions and both medical and psychological factors, only a small percentage of patients have so far opted for outpatient care. Like Reynaldo and Maria Julia, most find far more reasons to remain IN the sanitoriums than to live outside them given the economic uncertainty of the current period.

But the fact that they CAN choose brings the Cuban program to a plateau that could easily be described as "the best of both worlds." When asked why this was referred to as a "plateau" rather than the final stage of the program's evolution, however, an AIDS activist explained, "We will only consider that we have reached the final stage when there is a way to both prevent and cure the disease."

For Reynaldo Morales, the discovery of a cure will come too late. But as a pioneer in the movement to develop a comprehensive program to stop the spread of AIDS in Cuba, he contributed to a policy that has probably saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Not a small accomplishment.

More ... http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/011.html

[Billy Burnett]

134. Imagine that your country was in the US crosshairs

Doesn't this sound a little like the preamble to GW2?


Fact Sheet: Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/12/20031208-8.html

"Our government will establish a Commission for the Assistance to a Free Cuba, to plan for the happy day when Castro's regime is no more and democracy comes to the island."

President George W. Bush, October 10, 2003

On December 5, 2003, the President's Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba held its inaugural meeting at the White House. The meeting was co-chaired by Secretary of State Colin Powell and Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Mel Martinez. Also in attendance were Secretary of Commerce Don Evans, Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge, and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice.

United States policy regarding Cuba is clear -- hasten Cuba's peaceful transition to a representative democracy and a free market economy -- ending decades of an oppressive dictatorship. The President created the Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba to focus the United States government efforts on achieving this objective.

Specifically, the Commission will:

o identify additional means by which the United States can help the Cuban people bring about an expeditious end of the dictatorship; and

o consider the requirements for United States assistance to a post-dictatorship Cuba.

By May 1, 2004, the Commission will provide an initial report to the President regarding the recommended elements of a comprehensive program to assist the Cuban people to:

o bring about a peaceful, near-term end to the dictatorship; o establish democratic institutions, respect for human rights, and the rule of law; o create the core institutions of a free economy; o modernize infrastructure; and o meet basic needs in the areas of health, education, housing, and human services.

The Commission consists of representatives from:

The Departments of State, the Treasury, Defense, Justice, Interior, Agriculture, Commerce, Labor, Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, Transportation, Energy, Education, Veterans Affairs, and Homeland Security, the United States Agency for International Development, National Security Council, Environmental Protection Agency, Office of Management and Budget, United States Trade Representative, and the Office of National Drug Control Policy.

_______________________________



Never mind what the CIA says. Sound familiar?

MSNBC
April 13, 2000
CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER
*snip*
The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t
want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still
others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in
the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.
U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people,
but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope.
More important, Cuban media and Cuban culture long ago raised the banner of nationalism above that of
Marxism.
The intelligence community says the battle over Elian has presented Castro with a “unique opportunity” to
enhance that nationalism.
There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great
outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island
and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials. *snip*

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/cuba/loyal.htm


_________________________________



The black operators and US proposed future leadership are lined up with this government's agents. Sound familiar? (Think Chalibi or some such scum)

The Bush dynasty and the Cuban criminals
New book reveals links of two presidents and the governor of Florida with exiled hardliners
Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Monday December 2, 2002
The Guardian
The brother of President George Bush, the Florida governor, Jeb Bush, has been instrumental in securing the release from prison of militant Cuban exiles convicted of terrorist offences, according to a new book. The Bush family has also accommodated the demands of Cuban exile hardliners in exchange for electoral and financial support, the book suggests.
Last year, after September 11, while the justice department announced a sweep of terrorist suspects, Cubans convicted of terrorist offences were being released from US jails with the consent of the Bush administration, according to the book, Cuba Confidential: Love and Vengeance in Miami and Havana, by Ann Louise Bardach, the award-winning investigative journalist who has covered Cuban and Miami politics for the New York Times and Vanity Fair.
The Bush family connections go back to 1984 when Jeb Bush began a close association with Camilo Padreda, a former intelligence officer with the Batista dictatorship overthrown by Fidel Castro.
Jeb Bush was then the chairman of the Dade county Republican party and Padreda its finance chairman. Padreda had earlier been indicted on a $500,000 (£320,000) embezzlement charge along with a fellow exile, Hernandez Cartaya, but the charges were dropped, reportedly after the CIA stated that Cartaya had worked for them.
*snip*

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,851913,00.html


______________________________________



So what does one of the most respected freedom defending groups in America, the ALA, have to say about the so called "independent libraries" and "librarians" that the US funds in Cuba?


The Last Word on Cuban 'Independent Libraries'
http://www.lisnews.com/article.php3?sid=20010314225701

2. What Are the "Independent Libraries"?

The "independent libraries" are private book collections in peoples'
homes. Mr. Kent and the right-wing Cuban-American propaganda outlets,
call them "independent libraries" and even "public libraries." These
"independent libraries" are one of a number of "projects" initiated
and supported by a virtual entity calling itself "Cubanet"
(www.cubanet.org) and an expatriate anti-Castro political entity
calling itself the Directorio Revolucionario Democratico Cubano. The
Cubanet website describes what the "independent libraries" are, how
they got started and who funds and solicits for them. The index page
says that the organization exists to "assist independent
sector develop a civil society..." This is the wording used in
both the Torricelli and the Helms Burton Acts, both of which require
that the US government finance efforts to subvert the Cuban society in
the name of strengthening "civil society." You will see on the "Who We
Are" page that Cubanet, located in Hialeah, Florida, is financially
supported by the National Endowment for Democracy, the United States
Agency for International Development (USAID) and "private" "anonymous"
donors. The "exterior" representative of the "independent libraries"
is the Directorio Revoucionario Democratico Cubano, also located in
Hialeah.(5)

3. Who are the Independent Librarians?

You will read on the pages of Cubanet about the individual
"libraries" and their personnel. Not one of the people listed is
actually a librarian. Not one has ever been a librarian. Most,
however, are leaders or officers of various dissident political
parties, such as the Partido Cubano de Renovacion Ortodoxa and the
Partido Solidaridad Democratica. This is documented on Cubanet,
although Mr. Kent never mentions these party affiliations in his FCL
press releases. We know absolutely nothing about the principles,
programs or activities of these parties, or why they have been
allegedly targeted. We don't know whether their activities are lawful
or unlawful under Cuban law. Kent maintains that their activities are
solely related to their books - but in reality we have no idea whether
this is true and in fact, one of these "librarians" told one of our
ALA colleagues that this was not true! By using the terms
"beleaguered," "librarians" and the buzzwords "freedom of expression"
and "colleagues" Mr. Kent hopes to get the a priori support of
librarians who might not look beneath this veneer. After all, isn't
this the reason that the subcommittee will be considering their case
in the first place? But I wonder if ALA is willing to establish the
precedent that all politicians with private book collections who
decide to call themselves "librarians," are therefore our
"colleagues"?

4. Who funds Cubanet, the Directorio, and the "independent libraries"
- and why is this important?

A recent book entitled Psy War Against Cuba by Jon Elliston (Ocean
Press, 1999), reveals, using declassified US government documents, the
history of a small piece of the 40-year-old propaganda war waged by
our country against the government of Cuba. The US has spent hundreds
of millions of taxpayers' dollars over these years to subvert and
overthrow the current Cuban government - US activities have included
complete economic embargo, assassinations and assassination attempts,
sabotage, bombings, invasions, and "psyops." When even the fall of
the Soviet Union and the devastation of the Cuban economy in the early
1990's did not produce the desired effect, the US embarked on
additional, subtler, campaigns to overthrow the Cuban government from
within. One element of this approach is the funneling of monetary
support to dissident groups wherever they can be found, or created.
This includes bringing cash into the country through couriers such as
Mr. Kent, and increasing support to expatriate groups operating inside
the US, such as the Directorio, Cubanet and especially, the Cuban
American National Foundation (CANF) The website Afrocubaweb
(www.afrocubaweb.org) has gathered information from the Miami Herald
and other sources to document the recipients of this US funding.
USAID, a US government Agency, supported the Directorio Revolucionario
Democratico Cubano to the amount of $554,835 during 1999. This is
the group that supports the "independent librarians" in Cuba and is
listed as their "foreign representative." The money that they send to
Cuba, as well as the "small amounts" of cash that Mr. Kent carried
illegally to Cuba violates Cuban law, which does not allow foreign
funding of their political process. Neither does the United States
allow foreign funding of its own political process - the furor around
alleged Chinese "contributions" to the Democratic Party is a case in
point. The "independent libraries" may be independent of their own
government, but they are not independent of the US government. The US
government is not the only anti-Castro entity that has adjusted its
policy to changing times-- the most right-wing forces in the Cuban
expatriate community have also stepped up their support of dissident
elements inside Cuba over the last few years. The Miami Herald
reported in September 2000 that "the leading institution of this
city's exile community plans to quadruple the amount of money it sends
to dissident leaders on the island..." This leading institution is the
Cuban American National Foundation (CANF), and the article reports
that part of the group's $10,000,000 budget will begin "flowing to the
island through sympathetic dissidents by the end of the year." More
specifically, CANF will, among other declared activities, "increase
funds to buy books for its independent libraries."(6)



5. What is CANF? What is its record on free expression, intellectual
freedom, and democratic rights here in the USA?

The Cuban American National Foundation (CANF) was founded by Jorge
Mas Canosa, a veteran of the Bay of Pigs invasion and CIA operative,
at the behest of the Reagan administration in 1982. It has become the
most wealthy and powerful voice of the right-wing Cuban community in
South Florida and has wielded extraordinary political power for the
last twenty years. It has been connected to violence and terrorism
both in Cuba and in Miami. Its newest tactic, as described above, is
to "support" dissidents in Cuba, including buying books for
"independent" libraries, presumably to support "freedom of expression"
in Cuba. Mr. Kent and Mr. Sanguinetty claim to be proponents of human
rights and frequently refer to the "landmark" IFLA "report." But they
seem to have no problem with their libraries' CANF connection, even
though CANF was the subject of a truly "landmark" report issued by
Americas Watch, a division of Human Rights Watch, in 1992. The
Americas Watch report on CANF is the first that organization ever
issued against a human rights violator in a city of the United States.
It states that "a 'repressive climate for freedom of expression' had
been created by anti-Castro Cuban-American leaders in which violence
and intimidation had been used to quiet exiles who favor a softening
of policies toward Cuba."(7) The executive director of Americas Watch
at that time, said "We do not know of any other community in the
United States with this level of intimidation and lack of freedom to
dissent."(8) The report documents "how Miami Cubans who are opposed
to the Cuban government harass political opponents with bombings,
vandalism, beatings and death threats."(9) A campaign spearheaded by
CANF against the Miami Herald in the early nineties resulted in
bombings of Herald newpaper boxes and death threats to staff.(10)
Pressure from CANF closed the Cuban Museum of Arts and Culture because
it showed work by artists who had not "broken" with Cuba.(11) Anyone
who followed the Elian Gonzalez case this past year noted that
tolerance for dissenting views by Cuban Americans was completely
lacking in Florida and a hostile atmosphere was maintained by CANF
during the duration of the affair. Can you imagine what the life
expectancy of a pro-Castro "independent library" in the middle of
Little Havana would be, given this history? CANF does not respect
freedom of expression or democratic rights in the USA, yet it is a
direct financial supporter of Mr. Kent's independent libraries.
Neither Mr.Kent nor Mr. Sanguinetty have disowned this support - in
fact they haven't even mentioned it! They have not chosen to examine
or criticize the lack of free expression among the very people that
give them succor and publicity here at home, yet they claim to be its
great champions in Cuba!

______________________


The US - the AVOWED enemy of Cuba's elected government - is supporting the forward element and propaganda network of a future planned overthrow of the Cuban government.


Now imagine any US government allowing Al Queda illegal "independent libraries" and "librarians" to set up shop over this country knowing that their intent is to overthrow the US government.


The CANF and the US CIA are as wanted in Cuba, by Cubans, as Al Queda terrorists are wanted in the USA. They are terrorist organizations (in Cuba) who have attacked overtly and covertly in the past.

Why would we support these US "independent libraries" and "librarians" and try to misrepresent them as "just trying to freely exercise their speech" knowing what we know about US ops in other countries?



---


BTW, I've been to Cuba too.

[0007]

149. Your information should be a real eye opener for the person

who started this thread and the ones that follow suit without reason and believing the propaganda against Cuba for the same selfish reasons that Lansky lost his playground to Castro.

It took a while to go through, but thanks.

[Judi Lynn]

145. Terrific article, Billy. Thanks so much for posting it.

It shows that the approach to treatment of AIDS in Cuba has been evolving from the very first, bringing treatment centers to areas all over Cuba so patients don't have far to go, then working away at getting them the best possible treatment.

It's also interesting one aspect of the work is to educate the Cuban public to the presence of AIDS, and how to adapt. Very appropriate. I've heard that the Spanish influence in Latin America brings a special pressure to bear in acknowledging the problem and coming to terms with it, having an ancient "macho" conditioning built in by hundreds of years of culture. I tend to believe this! (It may have even been aluded to in a very frank speech dealing openly with the subject by Fidel Castro, now that I think about it. I've read it.)

They are in transition, having not settled for one standard response. People should find it interesting comparing the difference in levels of disease in Cuba vs. everywhere else!

[kz1500]

87. Been there

Yes, it really is all that bad, and worse.


kz1500

[Bridget Burke]

91. Details, please!

And don't tell us that you're a Cuban "exile".

[kz1500]

97. Not an exile

First let me start with a little context.

I do not think we are dealing with Cuba correctly. The embargo on Cuba is wrong and only punishes the people. Fidel can get anything he wants.

I believe we should open free trade with them and allow anyone and everyone who wants to travel there that Fidel will let in, go.

Over a period of 3 years I traveled to Cuba to do work with Doctors Without Borders. (not a doc, I work on lab equipment)

I am saying don't believe everything you are told by press and the Cuban government. I found that the literacy rate and the health care are no where near what they claim. Add that into the human rights abuses, moving people off farms or onto farms as officials please, and for the most part fearing to say anything, makes it a sad place.

kz1500

[Mika]

102. I've been to Cuba dozens of times

Been there first as a youth. Been there as a biology student too. I'm a doctor now. I have many many friends and medical associates there.

I was in Cuba during the entire 1997-98 election season. I attended candidate nomination sessions. I saw many debates and platform creation. I saw the votes, and the paper ballots counted in public.


I have worked in several dental clinics there, teaching and learning new cleft palate surgical techniques.



I saw no such fear as posted by kz1500. Cubans are about as open and outspoken as you will find anywhere. There is not a lot of anti Castro sentiment because there are not a lot of Castro haters in Cuba.

[0007]

115. Tell us how long and where you were in Cuba.

Because now your disputing what the International community has found to be excellent.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

101. It's a dictatorship, but there are much worse dictatorships around

Like Saudi "Good Friends" Arabia, and the Walmart's Republic of China.

[Mika]

104. The White House says so. So it must be true

Its hard to have a serious discussion with O'Reilly like 'talking points' that never veer, only to be repeated over and over and over.





Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[Jack_DeLeon]

103. Well it certainly is better of than...

many other Caribbean countries.

[Cuban_Liberal]

121. Yes, it's that bad.

Trust me on that 1...

[Dangerman]

139. Look...

All this sh*t about getting rid of Saddam, why can't we remove Castro?

He is a flagrant human rights violator, he treats political prisoners like crap, and he supprots terroristm.

We can oust a dictator like Saddam even if he does not have any WMDs and even if it takes tens of thousands of dead civilains to do it, won't not Castro? (I said this in a semi-sacrastic way.)

[JSJ]

140. USA, USA, USA!

[allemand]

146. Amnesty International, The Wire, July 2004 Vol 34 No. 06

Cuba

AI is concerned for the health of the 79 prisoners of conscience detained a year ago in a massive crackdown on dissent. Most of them are in an extremely poor state of health, some critical, aggravated by poor prison conditions and insufficient access to appropriate medical care.

Omar Pernet Hernández was recently described by his niece as a "living corpse". He is suffering from extreme weight loss, dehydration and a tumour in his abdomen. Many others are also suffering from serious complaints including liver failure, lung disease, high blood pressure and intestinal disorders.

AI welcomes the release of Julio Antonio Valdés Guevara in mid-April for a kidney transplant and the recent release of five detainees including Leonardo Bruzón Avila who spent 27 months in jail without trial.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGNWS210062004?open&of=ENG-CUB

Background:
In the space of a few days beginning on 18 March 2003, the Cuban authorities arrested scores of dissidents in targeted sweeps. Some were subsequently released, but 75 of them, including Manuel Vázquez Portal and Juan Roberto de Miranda Hernández, were subjected to hasty and manifestly unfair trials in early April and quickly sentenced to long prison terms of up to 28 years. Most appealed their sentences, but the appeals were rejected.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250182004?open&of=ENG-CUB

Other reports:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-cub/index

[Judi Lynn]

152. There have been several articles written on specific "dissidents"

being released. Perhaps you missed them.

It would be illuminating for some people to become more aware of who and what the jailed "dissidents" are, and how they are different from the Cuban "dissidents" who believe the "dissidents" who take money from the U.S. draw unwholesome attention to the legitimate ones. There's an article in this thread which covers the subject well.

"Sprung "dissidents:"

Sixth of 75 Cuban Dissidents Released
By Associated Press
Jun 27, 2004, 04:26

HAVANA - A writer whose published diary entries offered a glimpse of life behind bars in Cuba has been released from prison, becoming the sixth of the 75 dissidents jailed last year in a major crackdown to be freed.

Manuel Vazquez Portal, 52, was released late Wednesday from Boniato Prison in the eastern city of Santiago. He then traveled to Havana, where he spoke with reporters on Thursday.
(snip)

In his diary entries, Vazquez Portal recounted conditions such as bad food, rats and humidity behind prison walls.

The diary, smuggled out by his wife during a regular visit, contained no reports of physical abuse.
(snip)

http://www.kwabs.com/artman/publish/article_171.shtml~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Last Updated: Friday, 23 July, 2004, 01:51 GMT 02:51 UK

Cuban dissident economist freed


Roque was the only woman in a group of 75 dissidents arrested
Cuba has freed Martha Beatriz Roque, a prominent opponent of Fidel Castro, on health grounds.
The 58-year-old economist was the only woman in a group of 75 people arrested in a crackdown on dissent last year.

Ms Roque is the seventh of the group to be freed in recent weeks. She had been serving a 20-year sentence.

After her release, she pledged to work for the freedom of all political prisoners in Cuba, saying: "I will fight for them".
(snip)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3918835.stm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's an article which refers to remarks from C.I.A. officials concerning Cuba which appears in this thread, and apparently missed your attention.

CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER

NEW YORK, April 12 <2000> —


.....THE CIA has long believed that while 1 million to 3 million Cubans would leave the island if they had the opportunity, the rest of the nation’s 11 million people would stay behind.

While an extraordinarily high number, there are still 8 million to 10 million Cubans happy to remain on the island.
(snip)

The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.

U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope.

More important, Cuban media and Cuban culture long ago raised the banner of nationalism above that of Marxism. The intelligence community says the battle over Elian has presented Castro with a “unique opportunity” to enhance that nationalism.

There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials.
(snip)

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.html

[allemand]

154. So you agree with throwing dissidents into prison without fair trials

because most Cubans love their country and would not leave it?

What kind of logic is that?

[PATRICK]

147. Well, it could always get worse

Chaos, restoration of Mafia or RW interess, extreme damage to social net and education, jobs while the "free market" sputters. Look to Russia or Iraq for the pain that Cuba will be expected to swallow with little benefits except to a new upper class. Maybe the Atkins diet is a preplanned scaling back on sugar lest the reentry of Cuban imports cause market chaos or too much shift of real business to Cuba.

A new Haiti reborn lies in their Bush future, but hopefully much better under Kerry.

Right now all countries are standing under the Bush sword of Damocles.

[Alpha Wolf]

156. Become a Cuban citizen...

and then try to start a web discussion board criticizing and/or questioning Castro. Then you'll see how good or bad Cuba is.

[Electile Dysfunction]

157. Hmmm...

1. It's less bad than it was during the Batista years.
2. It's less bad than China, North Korea, and Saudi Arabia, among other countries.
3. It's still bad.
4. Castro's strongest internal opposition is social democratic and therefore worthy of our support.