Ok enlighten me here please... why is there such a love fest for Israel?

[southernleftylady]

what am i missing? why do we give them so much and protect them so much? thanks!

[madmax]

1. I'm not an expert on Israel or the area

My guess, is because of the Holocaust and second, it's a toehold in the Middle East.

[NMDemDist2]

2. check out the forum on this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=124

but you got me, other than the vast numbers of Jews in the US and what a strong voting block they wield.

[Trajan]

4. Huge ? ...

Total Jewish Population in US: 6,155,000

Total US Population: 282,125,000

Total Percentage of the US population that is Jewish: 2.2 %

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

[NMDemDist2]

24. but they vote! n/t

[Lefty48197]

33. Jews and union members vote at about twice their proportion

of the eligible voters. That's two good things for us Democrats.

3. White guilt

about the holocaust is one factor

[Jawja]

35. Another

is religion. Both Christians and Jews believe the Jews are the "chosen people." Judaism and Christianity are woven together through the Christian belief in Hebrew mythology, history and law as presented in the Chrisitan "Bible."

[mopaul]

36. both sides have the same god, who seems to have cursed them

the god of abraham is the god of the christians, muslims and jews.
what an odd god.

[PsN2Wind]

5. Not by me

The USS Liberty and the Jonathan Pollard incidents made me think they are just playing the US like a fine instrument. Now that they have a bunch of surrogates in our government it looks as if we will be also fighting their wars for them.

[geek tragedy]

6. It's complex, but

1. They see Israel as being surrounded by a virtual sea of enemies who have tried at every opportunity to destroy it;

2. Most Americans have heard of two Palestinians: Yasser Arafat and Sirhan Sirhan.

3. Israelis look whiter and speak better English than Palestinians and other Arabs.

There are other factors, of course. These are just a few.

[SunDrop23]

7. Yes please, I'd like to know the same thing.

[Tardisian]

8. Not entirely certain, but...

it seems I've heard that post-WWII, the (what is now) Israeli people asked the UN to give them a piece of land for their very own, based not only upon guilt over the Holocaust, but the fact that they had been very helpful allies.
What puzzles me is why they did not receive land that was unoccupied; say, islands that could be connected by boat and the 'net...it seems to me that the reason they pushed out the Palestinians who were already there was the claim that G-d intended them to have the land (based on biblical accounts). And if the UN protested giving them this land, they could heap on more guilt by saying that the US had deprived their Native Americans of their land.
Hmm...guess it all comes down to how hard you can play the guilt card.

Anyone else? My sense of history on this issue is a bit fuzzy.

[theboss]

42. Sometimes reading is a good thing.....

First of all, that's one of the more bizarre renderings of the history of Israel I have ever heard.

Secondly, the Israelis already owned most of Palestine by doing it the old-fashioned way. They bought it. Britain controlled Palestine, but was quickly getting out of the Empire Business. So as move to both a) acknowledge the growing and very powerful Zionist movement and b) create a "safe haven" for Jews after the Western Powers horribly pitiful failures in the buildup to the Holocaust, they split Palestine into two states - a Jewish one and an Arab one. Keep in mind there were a few dozen other Arab states created from the end of World War I to 1948. But they created another one. It was basically the same plan that led to the creation of Pakistan and modern India (and with the same happy results I might add).

Most of the Arabs in Israel proper (where if they had stayed they would likely have full citizenship rights and the ability to serve in government) decided to fuck off and the rest of them in the other state told the Brits and the UN to go fuck themselves; they wanted both countries. Israel decided to be bold and declare itself a state anyway. Every Arab country bordering it proceeded to attack and lose badly. This would happen another 4 times with the same result. (Please note that during the majority of these early wars the US didn't quite know what to do with Israel).

So anyway, why do we support Israel? Let's see:

1. It's democracy in which Arabs have full citizenship rights, whereas Jews have no rights in any Arab state.

2. Its neighbors want it destroyed. Even after Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize (may God have mercy on our souls), the PLO charter still called for pushing Israel into the sea.

3. It has a cultural connection to the US since the city with the largest Jewish population in the world is New York City.

4. We have a natural affinity for the underdog and there is no rational reason for Israel to still be alive considering it is situated on a resource-less desert and is surrounded by enemies.

5. We have a Cold War tie since The Soviet Union refused to recognize Israel.

Lately, things have gotten weird with the Christian Right liking Israel because somehow it's going to bring Jesus back. But this is a very recent phenomenom and the Israelis think the Christian Right are insane too.

[shraby]

53. Read Exodus

by Leon Uris and you'll understand how the Jews established Israel. It's an excellent book as are all of Uris' books. They made a movie out of it but the movie didn't do it justice.

[OK_DemX2]

9. Because RW evangelical Christians hold them to be the

chosen race. The one's God will save upon his return, and they think they can ride their coattails to salvation. Seems in my bible reading, God has punished Isreal alot more than blessed them, but that may be because they are as intolerant and evil as every other human being when they are in power, they just play victim better than most.

[Swede]

10. Because of all the hatred toward the Jews.

They needed help,the USA helped them,when no on else could or would.

[Darranar]

13. When, precisely, did the US help them when no one else could or would?

The US has helped them at times when they didn't need it, but no time when they did immediately comes to mind....

[Swede]

34. 1967,1973 comes to mind.

But then,I know my history.

[Darranar]

47. 1973, maybe...

1967, certainly not.

The Israelis were not in much danger, as their rapid and crushing military victory demonstrated.

[mopaul]

11. this land is mine, god gave this land to me

god gave, this precious land to me. those are the lyrics from a song from the movie, exodus, about israel's founding.

americans can understand this concept, because they think god gave them north america. they took it from the people who were already inhabiting it, and they did it in god's name and called it manifest destiny. now they call themselves a democracy. as does israel.

i'll never quite understand it i guess

[Lefty48197]

18. I wouldn't compare the Jews in Israel to the Europeans in America

White people landed in America at least 10,000 years after the natives appeared. We've been here going on 400 years now. The Jews have been in the Holy Land for thousands of years.

[mopaul]

21. what exactly makes that tract of land holy?

enlighten me

[Lefty48197]

23. Do a google search on "Holy Land"

enlighten yourself.

[mopaul]

38. what about sacred apache land?

we own it now

[Lefty48197]

39. Start a thread about giving land back to the Native Americans

I'll respond if I see it.

[Darranar]

12. It's useful to the American policy of controlling the Middle East. n/t

[notadmblnd]

14. In my opinion..

it is because there are too many people in government that are more loyal to Israel than to the US. Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith are a couple of examples of the people keeping the pot stirred up.

[Lefty48197]

19. And let's not forget us Catholics who are more loyal to the Pope

than to our homes.

[notadmblnd]

29. here's is just a short snip of a current article posted over at FTW.com

The Chalabi files recovered by U.S. intelligence and law enforcement provided enough information for the FBI to begin a criminal investigation of a Baghdad-Jerusalem-Washington syndicate that is profiteering from America's misguided invasion and occupation of Iraq. The investigation led to shadowy Israeli-owned firms registered in Delaware and Panama that were fraudulently obtaining contracts and sub-contracts to provide everything from cellular phones and VIP security to the interrogation of Iraqi prisoners using seconded members of Israel's feared Unit 1391 "special techniques" interrogation center. Not only were these firms operating in Iraq with the concurrence of the neo-cons in the Pentagon but some U.S. government officials were personally benefiting from the contracts.

Peeling apart the Chalabi files demonstrated that the neo-con agenda for Iraq extended far beyond political ideology, into a realm where law enforcement can be most effective: fraud.

<snip>

The law firm of Feith & Zell, in concert with Perle, was instrumental in funneling hundreds of millions of dollars from Arab and Muslim countries to the Bosnian government during that nation's civil war. While that effort was ostensibly designed to assist the Bosnians to purchase weapons, officials familiar with its actual operation reported that some of the arms and money "spilled over" to Al Qaeda and Iranian Pasdaran forces in the Balkans.

Can I ask, how did what I said in my first post offend you?

[Lefty48197]

31. The statement reminded me of some skin heads that said Jews controlled the

media.

[notadmblnd]

37. it's unfortunate we can't really discuss this

subject in this forum. People sensitivities are too easily offended and before you know it, nasty and vindictive comments are made and threads are locked. I've read some of your other posts and I think I understand your view, in fact I held it myself for many years and still do to some extent, but it is more complicated than Jew vs Christian vs Muslim and each view in my opinion need to be explored. You need to delve deeper into the subject from many angles and decide what to think.

[Lefty48197]

40. I've already decided

Nobody on this planet helped the Jews when the Europeans were trying to commit genocide. "Never again" is the battle cry of the modern Isreali soldier. Never again will they leave themselves at the mercy of others. I don't blame them one bit. If I were Jewish I would be angry at the rest of the world for standing idly-by and watching the attempted genocide. I would take it personally.
Ever since I was a child, I've listened to those around me say things like, "Lefty, why do you stick up for Blacks? You're not Black." or "Why do you stick up for Jews"...
It reminds me of that poem: "...and when they came for me, there was nobody left to protest".
Never again.

[notadmblnd]

41. It's all so complicated

Yes you are correct in your statement that no one came to their aid. but thats also true for so many groups of people that atrosities have been committed upon. The blacks as slaves, the Native american slaughter, the indentured Chineese that were shipped here to build the railroads the internment of the Japanese. Yes, the genocide of the Jews appears to be the worst among the inhumanity of man. But why.. is it just out of our collective guilt that we must now unquestionly support Ireal?

[Djinn]

48. so you'll be sticking up for Palestinians now then

[TrustingDog]

25. yep. and an amazing amount of them are PNACers...n/t

[Lefty48197]

15. The human race let the Jewish people down in the 1900's

They had no friends. They had no one to turn to. They had no safe harbor. Boatloads of Jews reaching U.S. waters were turned back to their European ports. The same European cities where large numbers of people were hell bent on killing off all of the Jews.
We didn't go to war with Hitler to save the Jews. We had no aid for their tired, weary, huddled masses.
Guilt over that disservice that the American and European people did to the human race probably led us to fight for the establishment of a Jewish state.
Surrounded, and vastly outnumbered by their Islamic neighbors near Israel, the Jews soon found themselves under attack (again). Again, with the ultimate goal being to drive every member of that religion out of the region, if not off of the entire planet.
In a miracle of biblical proportions, the Israeli military wound up occupying the lands of all the Islamic militaries that tried to attack their people.
Most of the lands have been given back, and most of the military attacks upon Israel have ended.
Why do I support the Israeli's? I guess I just always root for the underdog.

[Crunchy Frog]

28. Maybe it would have been

a good idea to pick a less hostile and violent region to establish a Jewish homeland in, like some islands in the South Pacific or something. They don't seem to have gained much safety by moving into the Middle East, and seems like it's keeping the region more stirred up and violent than it would otherwise be.

[Lefty48197]

32. And if the native Americans had moved to Portugal

then they wouldn't have had so many problems with the White man.

[theboss]

43. Because the Holy Land had been such a peaceful neighborhood move the Jews

Oops, that's right. The Jews had always been there. And most of the time they were running for their lives from someone.

I always feel that a lot of the hatred towards Israel is aimed at some historical fear of "Aggressive Judaism." It's the same reason that the Black Power movement scares white people so much.

"Yes, we know we have oppressed, enslaved, and slaugthered your kind for centuries. . . . but why all the hostility?"

[RebelYell]

16. Because we'll be called "anti-semitic" if we don't

And that's a label no one wants.

Here's the Balfour Declaration:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/balfour.htm

Here's background on Balfour Declaration:
http://www.mideastweb.org/mebalfour.htm

[Darth_Kitten]

17. Your kid is a cutie.....

don't mind me saying..... :evilgrin: :)

[demon67]

20. Lots of reasons, I think

I am NOT an expert, but here are some general observations:

1. Israel has usually acted as an ally to America, particularly when compared to other countries in the region;
2. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.
3. American Jews are a substantial source of political contributions for both parties;
4. Likewise, they are significantly represented in arenas of political influence, particularly law and the media;
5. The enemy of our enemy is our friend. Some of the most despotic and backward regimes in the world utilize their power and influence primarily to seek the destruction of Israel and its people; and
6. Anti-semitism has a long and horrific history -- a history that sadly continues to this day and which requires that Israel and Jews be protected from annihilation.

Just some thoughts to add to the list.

[papau]

30. I agree - add guilt for letting Anti-semitism in 42 stop our bombing of

the death camps (other railroads were more important in 42, then in 43, then in 44 and then in 45. I do not believe we ever
"wasted" a bomb trying to end the death camps.

And papers showing we knew at the highest levels about what was happening from 41 on - sort of hangs the US - plus our turning away the boats in the late 30's and sending those folks to their death because we already had too many Jews in this country - adds to the guilt.

Add British Guilt for screwing the Jews after the 1918 Balfour agreement - they were on the right side in WW1 and were promised Trans-Jordan out of the losing Ottoman Empire - by giving away to Arab countries 86% of the land promised for the Jewish State in 1918.

I'd say Western - read US and Brit - guilt - has a lot to do with our attitude.

Add in the fact they really are a democracy.

And they really are the only secure military toe hold in the Region.

And perhaps the attitude is explained.

[Djinn]

50. fwe points

1. Other countries like Saudi? Like Dubai - like Iraq who were a close US ally until the first gulf war? In terms of gain to US the Saudi's are far better allies does that mean you should arm them to teeth as well?

2. A democracy that rules over every aspect of the lives of nearly 4 million people who have no vote? A democracy that provides certain rights to members of a particular religion only?

[Democat]

22. How long will it take for this therad to explode?

Surprised it hasn't already! :)

[NMDemDist2]

26. shhhhhh n/t

[Ducks In A Row]

27. it's so tied up with the fundies bible

they think it's needed to bring Armageddon. The day they figure it doesn't, they'll go back to the normal j-w hating ways.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. Cold war politics.

Israel served as a base of "anti-communism" as the nations of the middle east kicked out the colonialists. We befriended Israel and were supplied with a compliant ally. Since then we have returned their allegiance tit-for-tat.

The Palestinians were, and are, the unfortunate pawns of power politics.

The problem being, that our blind backing of Israel no matter what crimes they commit, has made us detested in the region. The invasion of Iraq being but one of many examples of our repayment.

[Cat Atomic]

49. I agree with most of what you said, except for Iraq.

I think the Iraq invasion is about control of Iraq's oil, and the establishment of a large, permanent US military presence in the region. It isn't payback for Israel, in my opinion.

In fact, if we do manage to maintain a large military presence in Iraq over the coming years, I suspect it could result in decreasing US support for Israel. That's the problem with mob jobs- the big man cuts you loose as soon as it's convenient.

[union_maid]

45. Answer: Lots of reasons, depending on who's supporting Israel

Probably every motivation given in this thread is correct for some supporters of Israel. For people my age, some of us hate a lot of what Israel has done, but can't quite cut them loose because we remember the time when Jews were openly and legally discriminated against right here in this country even after our fathers fought the Nazis. Then there were the Soviet Jews and after that the even greater anti-Semitism that was unleashed in Eastern Europe after the break-up of the USSR. Add to that the long history of persecution all over the world and it's hard to give up the idea that the Jewish people need a country of their own.

[CaTeacher]

46. some people are either uneducated

about the situation--or they just don't care. I don't think anyone could ever support our policies in the Middle East if they could see what is going on in the Palestinian refuge camps.

:cry:

[Behind the Aegis]

51. my 2 cents

I honestly do not think there is a "lovefest" for Israel. As a strong liberal, I have always felt "left out" by other liberals because I do support Israel and her right to be. I do not blindly support all policies from Israel anymore than I do all polices of the US. However, the "right-wing" in Israel is just as powerful as it is here, and just as insidious. There are so many issues that come up when discussing Israel that often times, the truth gets lost.

Brightest Blessings!

[jmags]

52. Mainly for the recipes.