How can any anti-Bush person or DU'er possibly be Pro-Castro?

[SeveneightyWhoa]

I know most of us are quick to condemn the "police state", "Gestapo"-like tactics, and "Orwellianism" of the Bush Administration. Liberals/leftists are very worried about what the Bush Administration is doing to civil liberties, freedom if you will, and this has been one of the largest points of criticism towards the way the Republicans have governed this country since 9/11.

Yet, it seems as though a lot of people here have sympathy and open support for Fidel Castro.

How is this possible? Are some people here just unaware of what he's done -- and what he's doing right now -- or are they willfully ignorant to the "Orwellian", "police state" aspects of his regime, while condeming the Bush Administration for much more minor infractions?

To see what I'm talking about, read this: http://www.cpj.org/protests/99ltrs/cuba3feb99.html . Post other links if you have them. I just spent about half an hour reading Castro articles yesterday (no, they weren't from right-wing sources at all) and it amazes me how leftists (like those on DU) can support him as he partakes in his crimes against freedom.

[freetobegay]

1. Who supports that asshole here?

[SeveneightyWhoa]

2. Seems like a lot of people.

Or maybe its just a few loudmouthed loony leftists, I'm not sure. I could be mistaken.

[freetobegay]

6. I have had my share of those today!

[Caution]

7. it's loudmouths

I make liberal use of the ignore feature (have about 25 people on it) and i rarely ever see the extremist threads anymore. It's a really very small but vocal group. I use conspiracy theories as my litmus test, whenever I find someone who is hot on the more ridiculous theories i put em on ignore and that usually gets rid of castro apologists as well.

[Zinfandel]

9. "loony leftists" And let me guess, your a moderate with a moderate

"liberal" slant?

[SeveneightyWhoa]

13. Are you suggesting that loony leftists..

..somehow don't exist?

Just as how there are some rational right-wingers, there also happen to be some "loony" left-wingers. How can you deny this?

[Zinfandel]

14. I just simply asked you a question. Which you haven't answered????

[SeveneightyWhoa]

16. Calm down!

No, I don't call myself "moderate". I'm liberal/progressive. Otherwise I doubt I'd be on DU. If I were "moderate" I'd be hanging out in church with Joe Lieberman.

[ScreamingMeemie]

47. I have been called a leftist recently...I get more and more that way

every day I guess, by standards set forth. I do not feel sorry for or support Castro. In a word, he's an ass.

[JanMichael]

105. Ooops! I thought he meant BUSH! Bwahahaha!

Your oppresion is OUR Revolution:-)

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

21. Read this weeklong journal of a journalist in Cuba..

..and tell me how great the life of a Cuban sounds:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2104649/entry/2104667/

(Very interesting read, by the way. Read all 5 days!)

[SeveneightyWhoa]

22. Oh and of course you're welcome.

Why wouldn't you be?

[daveskilt]

26. of course you are welcome here

there are loads of people here who on one issue or another I find myself to the left or right of them - I personally have enjoyed the diversity of opinions on DU.

btw Im a moderate of sorts on average - very left on social issues, a bit right on fiscal and personal responsibility - so the opposite of bush on all counts.


welcome to DU!
:toast:

[noonwitch]

3. I don't, but then again, I'm not a communist or a socialist

I don't support Castro, but I also think that free trade and american tourism is the best way to get the people of Cuba to get rid of him. I also think Clinton/Reno were right to send Elian back to his father, as father's have rights over second cousins.

[movonne]

4. I'm not sure anyone here is supporting Castro...but we do not have

a right to try and overthrow is country... but I do have to say he has health care for all and the education in Cuba seems to be good. This does not mean I support Castro.

[freetobegay]

10. Then ahy are people dying to leave that Country?

If they all have health care & an education.

[Zinfandel]

24. There are people forced to die in this country...

just look around at the oppession of minoities, the inbalace of them in our jails...people forced to die when their military time is up in Iraq and Afghanistan...

No health care for millions of babies in this country, almost 50 million people in this country with NO health care...

The treatment of people who disagree with our government looked on as unpatriotic...wire taps on it's people, certain books not allowed in the libraries and records kept to find out what it's people read, not allowed the freedom to protest or speech...I'm speaking of our country not Cuba.

[freetobegay]

28. Noone is stopping anyone from leaving this Country

Thats a big difference!

[Zinfandel]

35. There are plenty who would love to get out of this country, who are jailed

illegaly and unjustly! because of biotry, hate, lies, political ideology, even for bullshit pocession of drugs...prisons are another corporate racket in this country...and the media keeps us frightened and the slimy politicians get elected telling us they'll put more people in jail...(justly or unjustly)!!!

No has a economic sanctions and constant military fucking with
our country as the U.S. has with Cuba...fucking with it night and day and have been since the American corporate pigs who ran Batista and enslaved the Cuban people until Castro since 1958...the Americans have fucked with Castro, fucked over it's people and would love to be able to exploit that labor force, agriculture industry, tourism, gambling,, US base, etc...as they did while controlling Batista!!!

[freetobegay]

40. Oh please!

I don't care what Country your in, if your in jail your not going to get to leave. Be real!

[K-W]

43. I dont think that was his point.

I think his point is that our jail system is unjust and we jail large portions of the alienated underclass who might otherwise be interested in leaving or changing the system. Popping young black men in jail for intoxicating themselves in improper ways isnt exactly the work of a just government.

[Zinfandel]

49. You simplify it as being imprison, that certainly is not my fucking point.

When a country that used to rule another country as the US did over Cuba and that country wants it's freedom from that huge oppressive country and get it...the oppressive doest give up making it pay as with sanctions and embargo's etc...they don't give a shit about the people who will starve and die, these weren't the same peasants they fucked over when they were in control 46 years ago...So of course people want to leave to go to the big rich US...


You get your info from television and the corporate media and from the same asshole politicians who want to control Cuba as before...Cuba becomes a perfect target for look at them they are Socialist, that's bad, we are Capitalist. we are good rich and happy.

Fucking wake up...your being manipulated...I really couldn't care less about what government Cuba has...but I know when I being bullshited...NOT very hard to see if you research it yourself instead of what has been told to you.

[freetobegay]

51. No I get my information from the people coming from Cuba

I spend alot of time in Little Havana.

Maybe you should also.

Your serve.

ON EDIT: I'm glad to see you have ESP & know where I get my information from. :eyes:

[K-W]

52. Hardly an objective source.

Not all cuban people agree on things.

[freetobegay]

53. Do you know what a the Mariel Cuban Boat Lift was?

It's still going on today. castro is worse than Bush.

ON EDIT: "Hardly an objective source." what is an objective source? You?

[K-W]

57. I can see you have no intention of being fair.

I never claimed to be an objective source. I dont know what that has to do with anything other than childish finger pointing.

Maybe Castro is worse than Bush, what on earth does that have to do with anything.

Do you want to make a point or just keep up the rhetorical flourishes with unrelated comparisons and meaningless arguments.

[mitchum]

111. It was another brilliant move on the part of Castro

It really endeared the Cuban-American "diaspora" to the other people of South Florida, didn't it?

[Zinfandel]

54. So if you speak with people who hate socialism and they are here

because they love the big cars and the lies of this system that you too can be rich (which of course they aren't if they live in Little Havana) what answer would one expect?

You think it's better for the Cuban people if the US were opressing the people as there were in 1948? Again you don't answer the question...If a country that used to rule another country as the US did over Cuba and that country wants it's freedom from that huge oppressive country and fights to get it...the oppressiving country (the US) doest give up. It's making it pay as through sanctions and embargo's etc..the US doesn't give a shit about the people of Cuba who will starve and die because of these repressive embargo's These are the same peasants the US corporations and politicians fucked over when the US was in control 46 years ago...So of course people want to leave to go to the big rich US...So why point the finger at Cuba and not mention the bigger picture and root and cause, The US????

As aways people refuse to believe we can do no wrong...just keeplistening to your TV and politicians, they'll tell you the real truth!!!

[freetobegay]

56. You are the one who is off subject not me.

Have a nice day.

[Zinfandel]

58. As usual you can't and so you avoid the question??????

You think it's better for the Cuban people if the US were opressing the people as there were in 1948? Again you don't answer the question...If a country that used to rule another country as the US did over Cuba and that country wants it's freedom from that huge oppressive country and fights to get it...the oppressiving country (the US) doesn't (and hasn't) given up trying to get it back. The US is making Cuba pay for throwing it out through sanctions and embargo's etc..the US doesn't give a shit about the people of Cuba, who WILL starve and die because of these repressive embargo's and constant US interference for 46 years. These are the same peasants the US corporations and greedy politicians fucked over when the US was in control for many many years and then ended 46 years ago...And the wealthy corporations and US, want that cheap cheap Cuban labor, the US agricultural industry, wants the lands back they used to control, as doesn't the US tousist industry, the hotels, and they want those gambling Casino's back.
So of course people want to leave to go to the big rich US...So why point the finger at Cuba and not mention the bigger picture and root and cause, the US????

As aways people refuse to believe we can do no wrong...just keeplistening to your TV and politicians, they'll tell you the real truth!!!

[John BigBootay]

74. Let me get this straight--

You're laying the economic woes and social / justice problems in Cuba sqaurely at the feet of the US, and the US alone?

[Zinfandel]

60. Please just answer the question.

[guajira]

114. Cubans travel to the US all the time, then return to Cuba

Continental Airlines flies from Miami, LA, and New York to Havana. Many Cubans regularly leave the island to visit relatives, even go to Spain and other countries. Then they return VOLUNTARILY to their homes in Cuba.

[robbob]

29. People are dying trying to leave Haiti

and just today the news had a very sad story about a boatload of Dominicans who were stranded trying to get to Puerto Rico. Let me ask you this; would you rather live in Haiti or Cuba? Or more to the point, who do you think fares better, the poor who live in Cuba, or any one of the "fledgling democracies" we have supported so vigerously in the Carribean and Central America?

Hell, I'm no fan of dictators, but all you have to do is look at the quality of life in Cuba versus El Salvadore or Guatamala.

[freetobegay]

30. Thats not the question this person is trying to paint Cuba

As something that it isn't. I detest whats going on In Cuba & Hati & I spit on Castor for what he does to his people!

[Bridget Burke]

59. People are dying to leave Mexico, too.

And they'll be hiding from La Migra once they get here. But anybody who manages the trip from Cuba will be treated well.

[Crunchy Frog]

93. People are dying to leave all kinds of countries

to move to the U.S. Or havn't you heard all of the stories of Mexicans dying while crossing the desert to get here.

People from Haiti die trying to get here, as do people from the Dominican Republic and other Carribean countries. Unlike Cubans, they get tossed right back to the hell-holes they came from if they get caught, yet they still risk death to try to get here.

Why not more outrage about conditions in these other countries?

[eridani]

102. Because they can

Unlike people who come from Haiti or Central American countries, they get in automatically.

[guajira]

113. People Die all the time leaving their country(s)

Just this week many were drowned trying to get from the Dominican Republic to Puerto Rico. Others died trying to get from Mexico to the US. Haitians are lost in the sea frequently, trying to get from Haiti to US.

[K-W]

5. Because with his flaws, he is still getting a raw deal from the US.

He has been demonized, his nation has been demonized beyond reason. Our continued embargo on them is irrational and inhumane. It is very possible that our tactics of pressuring and hurting castro have lead to destabilization in Cuba which has contributed to thier poor human rights record.

I really dont think many people are ignoring the downsides of Cuba. I think that is a bit of a strawman. I think the point is that most people view him as a communist demon, and the government has been very loud in thier criticisms, so we dont neccessarily need to educate people on those facts, people need to be told of the nation that has suffered from our unfair embargo. People need to be told of a nation that isnt really any worse than plenty of other nations, some of whom are our allies. People need to be told that thier government is lying to them.

[swag]

8. I'm not pro-Castro, but I am very pro economic engagement,

normalizing relations, etc. with Cuba.

Sorry, but I think the surest way to make his totalitarian regime crumble is to coopt the fuck out of it with our own blessings of Walmart-Britney freedoms.

[papau]

31. Fulgencio Batista was a whore to US Corporations - I guess Castro

at least does not have that on his record.

Indeed the sin and corruption hell that Batista turned the place into made it a great vacation stop for GOP folks.

Castro has improved the lifes of folks a lot since 59.

But I do not like the lack of political freedom - but how is it worse than the other "friends" we have in poor countries - or even Singapore and China?

Is there some pride of former ownership of a part of Cuba - ownership that may well be because of Batista rape, murder, and corruptiom - that makes the Castro takeover more evil than any other?

I do not like Castro - but normalizing relations, and economic engagement, are the way to forward in the future.

At least - IMHO!

:-)

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Curious Dave]

12. We basically forced Castro

to be what he is. We place a trade embargo against his country for over 40 years. Attempt to overthrow his government. Bombard his people with jingoistic bullshit american propaganda. And then having forced him to exercise more of a strong man form of government we have the gall to condemn him for it. And all the while we ignore the advances in social policy and services that he has brought to his people since the revolution. Advances that would be even greater I might add if it weren't for amerika.

[DrZhivago]

25. Hes a fuckstick

although brilliantly evil hes a son of a bitch. We should have taken him down long ago, but Kennedy signed a deal with the russians that we would not invade Cuba. Not only is Castro a communist dictator but he is also an international criminal who harbors drug dealers, terrorists, and every kind of underworld figure you could imagine.

The only reason I can think we keep him around is because Cuba seems to be better for the US as a "poor" nation rather than the bustling center it was prior to Castro coming in.

Could you imagine the business boom that place will have if it becomes democratic. Vegas who?

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K-W]

34. Is your name.... Paul Wolfowitz?

Or maybe its William Kristol.
How many guesses do I get?

Or did you not realize that you are talking neocon foriegn policy?

Castro is not a comic book villian, and if your worldview requires that you see him as such, your worldview is wrong.

Why doesnt the US fly into its super jet and fly around the world killing all the bad people. You do realize that plenty of U.S. Presidents were international crimininals who harbored drug dealers, terrorists, and every kind of underworld figure you can imagine?

Do you also realize that good information about Cuba is very hard to come by because the US has been spreading anti-cuba propaganda since Castro took power. So your certainty that you know Castro is very very suspicious.

Why dont you chill out, worry about your own country and stop being a neocon who thinks its the United States's job to be judge, jury, and executioner of the world.

[DrZhivago]

61. First of all...

Growing in up Miami and having cubans in my family I think makes me a tad bit more informed in Cuban affairs than 80% of everyone on this board. Everything that I know about Castro is first hand accounts, I haven't been fed anything.

The guy is horrible and is a central figure in international organized amnd disorganized crime. And it is our job to remove him from power, the same way we removed Noriega and other dictators. Wake up and realize we have been in the coup d'etat business for centuries. If we are to remove bad world leaders i.e. Sadaam Hussein why not guys like him.

Now if you have soft spot for him because of your secret revolutionary fetishes or because he once ran with Che Guevara thats your business, but Castro is one of the biggest sellouts the world has ever known. He overthrew the corrupted government in his country with good intentions and then decided he was better than the people he was trying to help and steadily decayed into a drunk-with-power dictator, the very thing he was against.

[K-W]

64. Thats the whole point.

You apparently are into removing world leaders. In general, amongst liberals and conservatives that is considered a BAD idea. You have to be that very special brand of person, a neo-conservative, if you think that running around the globe interferring in other nations is a good idea.

First off, you dont have first hand accounts. First hand means that the people who told you witnessed the actual events fully. You have heard the point of view and information of people from Cuba, good thats better than alot of information, its hardly first hand and its hardly objective. You can pretend you know the "truth" about castro all you want. I make no claims about knowing the truth on an issue that is so politicized and so full of bad information including bad information from Cuba and Cubans. Maybe when you arent so sure of yourself you can take a more rational viewpoint on this.

Regardless not a single person on DU or anywhere is nominating Castro for sainthood. The point is that it isnt the U.S.'s business to choose leaders for other countries, nor can the US be trusted to do what is right for other people, it cant even be trusted to do what is right for US people. The US doesnt intervene to remove bad leaders, it intervenes where it thinks its best interests are served by intervening. We dont intervene in countries we have no interest in, we intervene to help brutal dictators in some countries, and we intervene to remove democratically elected leaders in some countries.

Drop your ideas that your country, because it is bigger should have the right to decide the fate of other countries and drop your black and white view of things that allows you to draw clear destinctions between good and bad people. Either that or perhaps you should embrace neo-conservatism.

[mitchum]

110. So you longer for the glorious days of Batista???!!!

Fucking incredible

[IndianaGreen]

118. Hey, Batista was our thug

Amerika did not complain about the Somoza dictatorship in Nicaragua (father and son) until the dastardly Sandinistas took over and began to pull the rug from under the elites.

We are doing the same thing in Venezuela, demonizing Chavez for daring to divert oil profits to the people instead of letting the elites continue to suck the blood out of the workers and peasants.

[daveskilt]

63. I thought he made some good points - I also expect that ...

he is being somewhat more simplistic in a short post than in the longer discussion that this view warrants. Cuba does ok - but compare it to pre castro and it suddenly doesnt look so hot.

[K-W]

65. If you think the US should remove Castro...

I dont know what to tell you. So how should the world work? The US elects a president, and he selects the leaders of the other countries?

The US has no right to remove Castro, and we should never trust it to do so.

[daveskilt]

66. oh I wouldnt advocate removing castro

I mean it worked so well the other times the US removed foriegn leaders - even democratically elected ones like lumumba. just saying the guy had a few valid points about castro some of which I agree with others I don't. I only mentioned since you seemed a little unwilling to discuss and only to attack the guy.

[K-W]

67. But I didnt disagree with those points.

No one is trying to canonize Castro, that is a straw man I have no interest in discussing.

The poster I replied to suggested that taking action to try and remove Castro was a good idea. I think that is a statement worthy of being attacked. Just because I attacked his points doesnt mean I wasnt discussing.

Edit: Did you read his post:
"although brilliantly evil hes a son of a bitch. We should have taken him down long ago"

Thats a reasonable point now?

[DrZhivago]

68. wait a second...

we installed him, but we don't have the right to uninstall him?

Iraq is warping your view of "nation-building." We have succesfully installed democracy in Panama for example, we went in, removed Noriega and immediately Panama was running its own affairs. That being said, it is different that Iraq, that my friend is a true neocon experiment. We are there to own Iraq, we are looking for real estate. We are currently fighting there to preserve chaos and not let a true democracy flourish, beleive me. We know (the higher ups in the gov't) that a "free" Iraq won't necessarily be pro-america so we need a not so free Iraq, and sadly enough it might include installing a friendly dictator. Sounds familiar?

I would urge to wake up to the fact that our foreign policy will NEVER be the fairy tale isolationist view you wish it was but a very real and shady system of self-interest.

[K-W]

69. So I should give up?

We cant work towards a government that focuses on helping americans, not on playing stupid games with world diplomacy?

Your first sentance argues that two wrongs make a right. I dont see your logic at all. Yes it was wrong of us to interefere in the first place, yes it is still wrong to interefere now. You cant turn back time, and trying to influence world politics is like trying to control the weather.

Just because we cant have an isolationist utopia doesnt mean we shouldnt work to make things better. The lack of ability to reach perfection is NEVER an argument against change.

[DrZhivago]

71. and how exactly my friend are you working to make a difference?

if you don't mind me asking

[K-W]

73. Voting, discussing, protesting, educating.

What kind of a response is that. Im suddenly on trial now?

[DrZhivago]

79. exactly the kind of response you need

there is plenty to be outraged about unless you are physically doing something about it then you are part of the problem. Its fun to come to DU and politically vent yet keep your lip bit the rest of the day. Volunteer for your local democratic campaigns I'm sure someone needs your help, election time is coming up soon.

[papau]

76. bustling center it was prior to Castro coming in - amazing difference in

our memories.I recall "every kind of underworld figure" RUNNING Cuba in the mid 50's!

Indeed he did/does harbor terrorists - in the sense that these are folks that do evil - as they think they do good - the classic terrorist definition.

It is complicated because the terror of US rich and their Corporations on South America was OK'd by the state - which makes it OK by current GOP standards - even if folks had no real "vote". The old GOP would talk about the right of folks to rebel against communist dictators. Seems right wing dictators you just grin and bear it!

The drug dealers in Cuba as a State Sponsored or tolerated group is new to me - where did you hear about this?

Thanks,

:-)

[TruthIsAll]

112. I know someone running for president with those characteristics.

And he proved it over the last four years.

For anyone to criticize Castro when we have a criminal right here, is beyond contempt.

Castro fought a revolutuon to get a dictator out of Cuba.

Bush has stolen the office through election fraud and Judicial Coup and no one talks about it.

[truth2power]

107. I agree.

We basically forced Castro to be what he is"

Under Batista, Cuba was a playground for mobsters and wealthy businessmen. The US didn't give a shit what happened to the Cuban people. Castro tried to institute land reform and many of the Miami Cuban community are descendents of the wealthy members of the oligarchy who were royally pissed because they couldn't own everything after Castro and so they left and they've had a vendetta against him ever since.

IMO if the US had been willing to extend a hand to Castro and the Cuban people instead of engaging in anti-communist paranoia we might see a different Cuba today.

And yes, Dave is right. We have spent the last 40 years trying to destroy Cuba through a trade embargo, trying to invade them, hatching plans to assassinate Castro etc.

As I said on another thread, if someone was trying to break into my home and kill my family, year after year after year, I would start instituting some pretty stringent measures to try to keep them out.

I guess that makes me a looney lefty! Whatever!!!

[cheezus]

17. Just because I support a change in our Cuba policy....

doesn't mean I like the guy. We just need to defeat him with american capitalism.

[Worst Username Ever]

18. I'm not pro-Castro, I am pro people-of-Cuba.

[joycep]

19. I really don't think anyone here supports Castro

At least I have not ran across anyone, yet. I think we need to tend to our own business regarding Cuba. I think people who want to visit there should be allowed to do so. I think our businesses should be able to sell to Cuba. We are only hurting the Cuban people with the attitude we have. In my opinion, Castro is not any worse than some of our "friends" and better than some.

[Kelvin Mace]

20. I don't think that it is support of Castro as much as

opposition to a foreign policy which has failed repeatedly.

Castro could have been taken out of power YEARS ago by simply opening up the markets and allowing trade and tourism.

Is Castro a prick and a tyrant? Yes, but why is Cuba treated one way and China another? Personally I find the fact that Castro has outlasted NINE presidents (soon to be TEN) a damning indictment of how badly we've bungled the situation.

This is a similar argument made against liberals by neo-cons about Saddam. Just because we oppose foolish policy doesn't mean we support tyrants.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984

[eridani]

103. Cuba vs China

You see, there are good Communists who let US companies use their prisoners to make stuff for 50 cents a day, and bad Communists who just won't get on board with that.

If Castro ever got with that program, it would take exactly 3 seconds for US policy to remake Castro as a beacon of 'stability.'

[randr]

23. I do not think there is any defense of Castro

for many of his policies. Nor do I think there are "minor infractions" when it comes to some of the draconian drug laws and the erosion of civil liberties we are subject to in our own society.
It is our personal civic duty to remain free and to express this freedom as an example.
I believe our policies that have blocked the free trade of food, medicine, and ideas are partially responsible for Castro's continued presence.
And, on a twisted positive note, I additionally think the preservation of Cuban culture is in some regards the result of this conflict between Castro and the elements in our government that have so much difficulty with him. Without Castro the Cuban island would be one huge Las Vegas by now.

[Minstrel Boy]

27. Sometimes, here, I feel so Canadian I could scream. But

that wouldn't be very Canadian of me.

[Ekova]

44. Agreed.

E.

[AP]

32. Apples and Oranges. If Cuba weren't in the cross-hairs of big US business

then Castro wouldn't have to do what he does.

The US has tried to assassinate the guy. How do you want him to respond?

[russian33]

36. Before reading my rant note that I'm not pro-Castro

Having said that, and having lived in the wonderful USSR since I was born, until 1991, let me say this. First of, all the info we get on him is, in my opinion, one-sided. You heard horrible things about USSR, but it wasn't that bad living there. We had free health-care, excellent education system, cheap housing, etc.. What I mean is there's good and there's bad. If he was so horrible, people would've revolted by now. They revolted in Russia in 1917, and overthrew the Tsar, it can be done.

My main problem, and it's been pointed out here, is US picks good Communists and bad Communists. Cuba is a 'bad' Communist state, but China is a 'good' Communist state. What's the rationale for that? So we can get cheap goods from China?

Basically, the man is going to die in office, like USSR's General Secretaries of Communist Party used to do. Whether we change our position towards Cuba now or after he's dead, will only impact Cubans. And since we're hell bent on the embargo, we're only hurting them.

Ok, back to work now.

[K-W]

39. Good rant, and our embargo isnt even about Castro,

Its about control over latin america. We have been maneuvering and intervening with our continental neighbors to the south since before we were a country. This is about keep latin America in a position wherby we can continue to exploit them. Nations with communist or socialist ideals tend to do that psky land reform thing.

This was and is all about protecting US corporations who exploit the resources and people of these poor countries.

[On the Road]

37. Let Me Put it This Way

If Castro were running against Batista, would you vote for Batista? These are the options, just as there are or were similar options in Haiti, Nicaragua (under the Sandanistas), and Venezuela.

It's not a question of supporting Castro as much as opposing what the US and the upper classes have done to pretty much every country in Latin American and the Caribbean. The Cubans have chosen their form of government. It works much better for the average person than the banana republic model.

These articles about jailing journalists are incredibly weak when compared with what actually goes on in US-supported governments. The US did far worse to journalists in 1917 when our country wasn't even in danger.

Do you hear stories of massacres, starvation, or plagues? No, because most Cubans support the government and are well cared for. It actually reflects well on Castro that this is the best the media can come up with.

Cuba has a hostile power with 100 times the military strength on its doorstep. It's been invaded in the lifetime of many of us and is still under crippling embargoes. Eventually, Castro will die or step down from power. At that point, I hope the Cuban can continue the government that the people want. I would be willing to bet the US will try to return Cuba to the control of the elite and the corporations. I hope it does not succeed.

[Bombtrack]

80. You are wrong about Venezuela. Chavez opponents are not made up of

Coup-mongering facsists to the person as so many misguided demagogues here believe. There is an overwhelming number of the resistance, the vast majority, that is peaceful and moderate, and looking for a mixed-capitalist third way under the leadership of a democratic transparent government, which Chavez does not provide.

[On the Road]

86. I Realize That

but that is not the choice. Look at the the coup and the oil lockout. There was nothing moderate or transparent about those. The folks behind them are going to be the ones in power if Chavez loses the recall.

It's like saying there are a lot of principled, well-meaning Republicans who believe in democracy. This may be true. It is NOT a reason to support a Republican victory.

[Bombtrack]

89. No, your wrong, again. Venezuela doesn't have the entrenched 2-party

system of politics that America has. I don't have time for this frigging excuse/false choice politics for Chavez or his good buddy Castro.

[K-W]

91. That isnt what he said at all. Get a grip.

The point is that if Chavez or Castro fall, the people arent going to get the power in any way shape or form.

You are the one using the false choice. Are castro or chavez perfect? No, are they even preferred, maybe not. Does that mean that ousting them would lead to good things for thier country? Not neccessarily. And the US has a piss poor track record of picking rulers for countries.

[Bombtrack]

96. the US picking rulers? Where the fuck did I advocate that? I'd like Cubans

to be able to pick their ruler, something they haven't been able to do while being promised it, for over 4 decades. And I'd like Venezuelans to pick a more effective ruler, and not be scapegoated as Machiavellian fascists more or less when anti-Chavistas are probably now the plurality, now that everything is worth 80 percent less since Chavez took power.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

99. I guess then that Venezuelans don't give two fucks about what you'd

like them to do. Since according to every opposition poll Chavez is headed for a 3rd victory. When people here ask "Why do they hate us?". I guess this is a good example right here.

If they want to elect the guy 20 more times that's their business not anybody else's.

[On the Road]

101. Let Me Spell This Out

It's not a question of two entrenched political parties like the US. It's a case of two centers of power: the oil industry and bankers on one side and the masses of poor people on the other side.
In the middle you have a large group of indifferent or apolitical people who can theoretically go either way. For politically active people, though, Venezuela is much more polarized than the US.

If Chavez is ousted and is not replaced by a Chavez supporter (which is a possibility), the country will be run by the upper class as a banana republic, just like it used to be. Who else do you think would be elected?

I have some problems with some things Chavez has done, such as infringing on property rights in some cases. But it's nothing compared with what is routinely done by US-backed governments all over Latin America.

Look at the populists who have been elected in the last decade. To the extent they accommodate the upper class, they become ineffective. Chavez has avoided doing that, even though it's meant he has to fight for his political life.

I hope Chavez is able to improve Venezuela for the sake of the average person, or eventually support an an ally who can manage the economy better. There's no reason his basic can't work, and it's better than the neoliberal version.

[Aidoneus]

115. That's correct, it typically has an entrenched effectively 1-party system

rule by oligarchy, which Chavez's people are inconsiderate enough to disrupt;--hence the whole "crisis". It is sometimes interesting to see what type of person rushes to their defense when they're not quietly cracking the whip anymore.--predictable, really.

[IndianaGreen]

119. Chavez's opponents are the exploiters of the workers and peasants

They are the Caracas elites that have profited from the oil revenues, sending their spoiled children to be educated in Amerika, while the workers and peasants had to toil for meager wages.

No wonder the Amerikan elites feel so comfortable with their Venezuelan counterparts!

[rman]

121. i take it you didn't see "Chavez: the revoution will not be televised"

www.chavezthefilm.com

Fact is that Chavez opponents did commit a military coup against Chavez. Also fact is those opponents are the rich minority.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

38. This is a subject that will only lead to a flamewar.

Cuba isn't bad, but it's not great. I don't care for Castro but he's better than Musharraf. It's all relative.

[ret5hd]

41. a flamewar is sthe whole point, dont you think...

if you are interested, google "viral marketing". THere is more than a little of that going on at DU.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

42. ???

I don't know what viral marketing is, but I assume you're suggesting I'm a part of that. Who's paying me -- the White House? The CIA? The American Enterprise Institute?

So when do I get my check?

[K-W]

45. The point is, you used an inflamatory headline to get people to respond,

like many people do.

[ret5hd]

50. Don't waste my time, SeveneightyWhoa

if you were truly interested in the answer to your origianl query, you could have resurrected and read any of the hundreds of previous threads on this same subject and sifted thru the chafe and flames to find why, in some peoples opinion, Cuba has a society that is remarkably better in many respects to its neighbors. Then you could have replyd to those individual posters that you disagree with or start a thread without such a flamebait header.

But that is not what you wished. you wished to have your name at the forefront of a virtual slap-fest, leaving you with many chuckles for the rest of the evening.

as for a paycheck---post your address, i'll send it to you.

[Bombtrack]

81. You are oh so wrong. Alot of people here aren't satisfied with constant

preconception reenforcement and whining to the choir. And Castro is far worse than Mushareff. Cuba's population can do a million times better than Castro, Mushareff is the best we are going to get in Pakistan.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

85. I still hold that Castro is better than Musharraf

And my point is that the US government is happy to work with Musharraf.

My second point is - do you have to be so bloody condescending about it? I don't care much for Castro, but I'm looking at it with some perspective.

[Vladimir]

The best 'we' are going to get??

methinks you betray yourself bombtrack...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. Comparing apples and oranges, or maybe bananas.

Comparing Cuba to the United States is about like comparing Joe Schmo the janitor to Donald Trump.

How does Cuba stand up to say, Guatamala? Columbia? Honduras? Haiti? They all have "democracy". Of course, if anyone speaks out, they might get a visit from a death squad. How's their educational systems stack up to the US? How do they stack up to Cuba?

But, we're FREE!

Really? Try expressing your Freedom by doing some of the following:

Sell your property (property rights is what seperates from communism) to North Korea.

Declare "your" property an independent nation and demand that the government recognize it and not overfly it and pay taxes to yourself.

Walk around on "your" property in the nude.

Go to any number of universities that are funded through "research" programs with your money, and demand an education.

Refuse to pay your taxes because you don't want any of it to go to "national defense".

Demand an interview with George W. Goober since he works for you and receives his salary from you, and then fire him.

If the draft is reinstated (as is likely), and you get your draft notice refuse to serve on the grounds of "I don't want to".

Demand to see any documents from the CIA, DIA, etc, that you wish on the grounds that they work for you.

If you are openly homosexual demand that you be allowed to join the military.

etc, etc, etc.

Fidel, with all his faults, has done more for his people than any number of countries that we have "helped" by installing "democracies" and wondrous capitalism that robs the poor and enriches the wealthy.

[0007]

77. Very good! I agree with you. I support Castro and his programs

Not one can match Cuba in a single one of these rates.

For the sake of time, I will outline just a few figures for Latin America as a whole as compared to Cuba.

- Illiteracy rate: Latin America, 11.7%; Cuba, 0.2%

- Inhabitants per teacher: Latin America, 98.4; Cuba, 43, in other words, 2.3 times as many teachers per capita

- Primary education enrolment ratio: Latin America, 92%; Cuba, 100%

- Secondary education enrolment ratio: Latin America, 52%; Cuba, 99.7%

- Primary school students reaching Fifth Grade: Latin America, 76%; Cuba, 100%

- Infant mortality per thousand live births: Latin America, 32; Cuba, 6.2

- Medical doctors per hundred thousand inhabitants: Latin America, 160; Cuba, 590

- Dentists per hundred thousand inhabitants: Latin America, 63; Cuba, 89

- Nurses per hundred thousand inhabitants: Latin America, 69; Cuba, 743

- Hospital beds per 100 thousand inhabitants: Latin America, 220;
Cuba, 631.6

- Medically attended births: Latin America, 86.5%; Cuba, 100%

- Life expectancy at birth: Latin America, 70 years; Cuba, 76 years

- Population between 15 and 49 years of age infected with HIV/AIDS: Latin America, 0.5%; Cuba, 0.05%

- Annual AIDS infection rate per million inhabitants, i.e. those who develop the disease: Latin America, 65.25; Cuba, 15.6

- The first international study of the Latin American Laboratory of Evaluation of educational quality, carried out in 12 Latin American countries including Cuba, produced the following results. Although these data have been already mentioned, I would like to briefly refer to them in detail:

- In Language, 3rd Grade: Cuba, 85.74 points; the remaining 11 countries, 59.11 points

- In Language, 4th Grade: Cuba, 87.25; the rest, 63.75

- In Mathematics, 3rd Grade: Cuba, 87.75; the rest, 58.31

- In Mathematics, 4th Grade: Cuba, 88.25; the rest, 62.04

What is or will be the future of those countries?

According to these figures, of the seven Latin American countries that voted against Cuba, four --Costa Rica, Chile, Argentina and Uruguay-- that had boasted in the past of being the most advanced in the region, fall well behind Cuban figures. In some of these, they reach or scrape past the half way mark in comparison to Cuba, but in others they are very well below. This is the case of pre-school education for 0-5 year olds, for example, that only reaches 15.8% of the children in that age group in Chile as compared to Cuba's 99.2%.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

94. Thanks for the info! Why that commie is really EVIL!

Just imagine, he's forcing doctors on people!

He's forcing teachers on people!

Hes dealing with the AIDS epidemic instead of just wringing his hands and saying that it's tragic!

He threw out brave capitalist entrepenuers who brought the love of free enterprese to Cuba along with the brothels, casinos, and thugs.

Why, he's probably spending more on social services than what is really needed..like "defense", "incentives" to the downtrodden wealthy, and high tech prisons!

Where will it all end! Hordes of bearded commies in '54 Chevvies are about to invade the hapless USofA at any moment and force innocent kids to go to hospitals when they're sick.

[0007]

95. LOL!

[0rion]

48. I have nothign against and I also do not support Sanctions......

Education, health care and many other social programs are FREE in Cuba. We have kept their people down in the dumps with sanctions when they could have been very prosperous. It's a shame that we do these things to our neighbors.

[Bridget Burke]

55. So, what do you want to do?

Invade Cuba? It's been tried.

Our government has a history of being close friends & allies of far worse tyrants than Castro.

We need to let the Cuban people decide their own future. Closing off commerce & communication is not the way to go.

People are dying to come to the USA from Mexico, too. And they're persecuted after they get here--not coddled, as Cubans are.

[kodi]

62. castro's a dictator, but his people are not starving

let's discuss the dictators who are starving their people first. they are the worse problem.

we trade with red china and their leaders murdered tens of millions more than castro has.

so why smile at china and frown at cuba?

we have a hard-on against castro and have done everything possible to destroy castro by destroying the cuban economy, including invasion support because american business interests can not stand the possibility of a functioning socialist government 90 miles from miami. for if it was found that socialism worked there, it could be presumed that it could work here.

as to left not being anti-castro enough, that's bunkum.

there was a time in america where the most virulent anti-communists have been progressive socialists on the left, because they knew the ruthless nature of the communist mentality from years of fighting them in leftist trade and union organizations.

[Disturbed]

72. Cuba-'bad' Communist state.China-'good' Communist state.

Hypocrisy!

How many brutal Right Wing Dictators has the US propped up and supported in the last 50 years?

The US policy towards Cuba stems from revenge and the Cuban vote. Had the US engaged in an open door policy and "free trade" from the beginning and not villifed Castro after the Cuban Missle Crisis was over the situation would have been different. The US drove Cuba to allign with the USSR then whined about it and tried to assasinate Castro in humdreds of ways. The US policy is not only wrong, it is punitive; punishing the Cuban people.

[ProfLefty]

70. Take a look

At Cuba and the conditions forced upon its people before Castro. He has been an improvement. No he is not perfect but at least every Cuban now has access to health care and a solid basic education. He has educated not only his own citizens but others from all over the third world all the while fighting off every attempt by the most powerful nation in the history of the world to overthrow him, destroy what he has created, even kill him all in an effort to return Cuba to the days when it was firmly under the reactionary thumbs of the two most powerful international criminal organizations of the time (CIA and Mafia).

[CaTeacher]

75. Thank you for that sound analysis.

I am in complete agreement---and I look forward to the day when we are open minded enough to normalize our relations with Cuba. Why should we continue to try to starve our neighbors? I have met several Cuban people--they have been without exception wonderful people--and I am ashamed that they have suffered so greatly because of our unreasonable foreign policies.

[papau]

78. That is also my memory - total CIA/Mafia/rich Control before Castro

Treament of women was especially bad before Castro.

Granted the lack of political freedom makes me want him removed - but folks seem to have a short memory.

:-)

[DaveSZ]

83. In another thread

The issue of "socialism" was discussed.

I asked if we were talking about Canadian "socialism" or USSR/Cuban socialism, and several came out of the woodwork to defend Castro and talk of his great utopia of human rights, etc.

What a joke.

[K-W]

84. But its no worse than the rediculous anti-castro propaganda.

It isnt a utopia, it isnt a dystopia either.

[papau]

92. utopia of human rights ? - no way -but basic rights as humans to not being

raped or killed and to be educated, get medical care, and food - all missing under Batista - he did bring to Cuba.

Indeed it was/is a clone of Singapore in its "human rights" concepts - but even more harsh to those that violated the rules (jail often led to death).

And Singapore is into liberalization - or so they said this week - although new guy is son of old guy!

I do not see Castro being into liberalization.

[truth2power]

108. Yes. Google Meyer Lansky + Cuba + Batista

[IndianaGreen]

120. I will also mention that anti-Semitism was state policy before Fidel

Cuba has a vibrant Jewish community and the Cuban government has spent a lot of money restoring some of the ancient synagogues in the country.

[Joe Chi Minh]

88. Who wants...

Our friends have fallen very silent all of a sudden.

I was expecting them to hurl: "Who wants food, shelter, health care, education, etc!!! What's wrong with kids living in culverts and drains, and getting murdered by public-spirited vigilantes. Give me Brazil any day!"

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. You don't have to be pro-Castro to think that Cuba is getting a raw deal

when trade and tourism with China, whose human rights record is much worse, is encouraged, while trade and tourism with Cuba can get you in trouble with the law.

We should be able to travel anywhere we want.

Judging from what I've heard from a couple of the few travelers permitted to go there, Cuba is neither the hellhole that Miami exiles paint it as nor the paradise that romantic leftists paint it as.

[genius]

87. Castro kicked out organized crime from the United States

His people love him. He thinks we are out to get him and we are. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the embargo were lifted.

[Crunchy Frog]

90. I'm not at all Pro-Castro.

I agree that he is a dictator and that Cuba is an authoritarian state, not a democracy.

However, that being said, I completely disagree with our country's Cuba policy. I think that as dictators go, Castro is not particularly bad, and that Cuba is not nearly as bad a place to live as many Carribean or Latin American countries.

I think our fixation on Cuba is very unhealthy and also hypocritical. Our government was just fine with the Batista regime, just as it continues to be with many other dictatorships.

I think that Castro's biggest real crime in the minds of American policymakers is not in being an authoritarian dictator, but in defying the U.S., and doing it right off of our shores. It's hard to believe that we've forgiven Vietnam, but can't forgive Cuba.

I believe that the most constructive thing that we could do about Cuba is to normalize relations with it and allow free travel for all Americans. That would do alot more to undermine the authoritarian system than the failed policies of the last 40 some odd years have managed to do.

And yes, I do worry more about our own country becoming an authoritarian police state than I do about other countries that have always been authoritarian police states. I also wish my country would be more consistent and not condemn some dictators while propping up, or even installing other ones.

[noiretextatique]

97. how can any american be pro-bush? eom

[noiretextatique]

98. anything more recent than 1999?

something tells me you might not be the most credible source for information on cuba.

[0007]

100. btt

[murray hill farm]

104. Take a little trip to Cuba..check it out.

you can do it you know...fly first to mexico..and then fly to Cuba...no problem..they dont stamp your passport..so no record of the trip. Talk to some real Cubans...they love their Castro. He took from the rich and distributed to the poor people..ask them..they will tell you. you know, the reason there is such a fuss about Cuba gaining internet access is not because Cubans might have access to the wonderful live in the USA. It is rather that the folks in the USA might get an honest view of Cuba. Now, the only view you receive is that which is printed or aired on TV that is the perspective of the wealthy who lost their mansions in Cuba and fled to Florida and hate Castro...but it is not even close to the view of the people who live in Cuba now and enjoy the opportunity to share in the distribution of that wealth..including shared use of the mansions and their swimming pools in the homes that now belong to all of the people. Sure, the people whos homes were taken from them do hate Castro...who can blame them...but that is not the view of the people of Cuba now.

[geek tragedy]

106. Castro's no saint, but he's not a demon like he's made out to be either.

He's a dictator, but his rule has produced real social gains for his people.

However, it's probably time for him and his system to give way.

[LoZoccolo]

109. Communism means never having to say you're sorry.

I say we wait a few years and wait for the Castro sympathizers to graduate from college.

[Dangerman]

116. For Your Information

I DO NOT support neither Bush nor Castro.

They're both unforgivable and disgusting scumbags in my eyes!

[IndianaGreen]

117. Go to Cuba first and...

see for yourself the reality of the Cuban Revolution and how it differs from the propaganda you are fed by the American press. Then we will talk!

Oh, I forgot, our free and democratic country does not want us Americans to travel to Cuba--we also don't elect as President the candidate that gets the most votes.