The "Us" vs "Them" difference

[LunaC]

I've been pondering why some people willingly, gladly and joyously step up to the plate on behalf of their fellow humans (Dems) and why other folks simply don't give a rats ass and turn their back (Repugs)? What creates this chasm in extremes?

I think the answer may lie in a Wayne Dyer quote: "We are not humans having a spiritual experience, we are spirits having a human experience."

I believe Dems are coming from a place of spirit where caring, kindness, compassion and empathy are hard-wired into their system and they can't help but to help others.

The Repugs, on the other hand, seem to be caught in the more selfishly motivated human-mode of "Me, me, me......to hell with everyone else, why should I care?"

Just a thought......

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Mystics talk of being awake or asleep

When life breaks one's heart, one has a choice: to open the heart further or to shut it down. Those who are awake keep their hearts open.

[sweetheart]

3. and NOW we are awake

To leave all the pain and joy of the past behind for an open heart.

It will only ever be now. The choice is in every moment.

In our hearts now, we are all alive. What a gift.

[LunaC]

5. Poetic reminder

Ah, sweet synchronicity, it's exactly what I needed to hear.

Thanks for that nugget.....my lesson for the day!

[Ignoramus]

2. difference or matter of degree?

Well, both Democrats and Republicans are primarily people who share the overt us vs. them philosophy, both groups believe it's okay to kill "those people" because they aren't "us", e.g. they would be okay with dropping bombs on people in Iraq, but not okay with dropping bombs on people in Boston, because the Iraqis are "those people" and those in Boston are "us".

Left-wingers and Right-wingers, as I'm used to hearing them describe, are two arbitrarily posed extremes of a false context which serves to promote the bogus idea that a rational person would have beliefs that sit in the middle of the two false extremes.

The left/right farce allows people to pass themselves off as objective when limiting their consideration to the views of two groups of Imperial Terrorists.

But, it's really just a metaphor. Liberals vs. Totalitarians is another pair of extremes, but it doesn't tend to suggest that the sane position is half-assed liberalism, or half-assed totalitarianism, as left-wing vs. right-wing does.

One distinction can be those who overtly promote having faith in an arbitrary set of rules. Like, those who say we have to take over the middle east because God tells them so. As opposed to those who overtly promote questioning what you have faith in.

The two groups overlap, but at the extremes there are those who say you should not question your beliefs, and there are those who say that you should question your beliefs.

What a coincidence... I was just looking for citations of the "stern father model" thing I heard George Lackoff talking about on KPFA:

http://www.wwcd.org/issues/Lakoff.html

and here the guy is on air america, as I'm typing. He says there is a fundamental difference in the way progressives and totalitarians are raised, and that authoritarian beliefs start in the family.

Basically, I think the fundamental problem is the idea of faith. Faith is a promise to ignore any facts that contradict a preconceived idea. We all have faith, but there is a fundamental difference between those who who have faith and those who try not to have faith.

[LunaC]

4. My prejudice is showing

I totally turned you off for further consideration when you said "both groups believe it's okay to kill "those people" because they aren't "us".

That's just so......WRONG! In my experience with the denizons of this board, that's a mindset straight from the Repugs playbook, NOT the Dems.

[Kanary]

6. Maybe expressed in that way it was extreme...... but, I ask you

to hear me out. If you would be so kind.

We would do well to look at some of our own ingrained biases and blind areas. For instance, the original premise is that the RW sees things in terms of "us and them", and DEMs don't. Isn't that statement itself one more instance of "us and them"?

I'm not saying this to argue with you, or start some sort of back and forth "prove it" or some such. I'm pointing this out because I truly believe there is a *reason* why the Dems are finding themselves in such a problem as we've been in for a while now, and if we truly want to improve our society, we also have to be willing to look at ourselves honestly, and deal with some of the problems we find in our own selves.

Just as in a marriage, there is *never* one side that is all A-OK, and the other side that is All Rotten. All of us have parts of both.

I think there is a distinct value to looking at our own weaknesses and blind spots.

I ask that you consider this in the spirit in which is it presented. No blame, no guilt, no "bad". Just a matter of being clear and honest about ourselves.

What do we have to lose in trying it?

Kanary

[LunaC]

8. It appears that you may have misunderstood

I never said that Repugs have an "us" vs "them" mentality and Dems don't. Both Repugs and Dems view each other with contempt. We are alike in that regard. How we view and treat our fellow humans - no matter their land or region of origin - is where we differ and the basis/point of my post.

Repugs don't seem to give a damn about anybody but those that most closely resemble themselves, exhibiting tendencies towards sexism, racism and homophobia. I don't find that same hatred and bigotry with the Dems who are more (gasp!) liberal in their understanding that all men/women are brethren. THESE are the differences I was originally addressing.

[Kanary]

9. Well, either I misunderstood your premise, or I just disagree......

There may be a difference in degree, but *both* groups operate with the same premise.

For another example..... many times women here on DU have complained about overt sexism. If there were *truly* that much generosity of spirit natural to Dems, that would have resulted in a greater understanding, and a willingness to find a solution. More often, what happens is the women get shouted down, and called all sorts of things. "How we view and treat our fellow humans" has some sad examples right here on DU. I have seen some examples of accepted sexism here that really make my head spin.

AGain, I don't think we gain anything by painting such a stark picture.

Kanary

[LunaC]

10. I see what you're saying

There may be Neanderthals in our midst but I'm not referring to individual members within the ranks but the collective whole. On the big issues (funding for Planned Parenthood, availability/access to safe abortions, equal pay, etc) the Dems are far more attuned to women's needs and willing to secure them than the Repugs who seem to still think "barefoot and pregnant" is a woman's preferred role.

[Kanary]

11. well, I'm glad you can understand it's not all that clear cut

Unfortunately, it's more than a few "neanderthals". The problem is pervasive. Dismissing it as important doesn't make it go away. Unless, of course, women's issues are seen as no longer important. I have a feeling Teresa would shriek if she saw some of the things that are accepted here. Actually, I do wish she would have the time to look in here and post. Maybe *that* would open a few eyes. Those of us who've been battling the same issues for over 30 years with "attunded" Dems are very tired of it.

I know that a lot of Repugs wouldn't accept the level of sexism that goes on here. It's just not that clearcut.

To me, it's like one other "them-us" categorization that I would like to believe is true, but doesn't work out that way... the whole "Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars" thing. The premise of that is that women are more into wanting to discuss what happens to them in terms of how they feel about it, and men just want to "fix" the person with the problem. I'd *like* for that to be true. But, I find women do just as much "fixing" as men do. Both have lost much of their abiilty to *hear* others.

Then, there's the poverty issues. While Dems traditionally are more attuned, they have droppped the issue.

Kanary, who would *like* Dems to be more aware and attuned

[LunaC]

12. If women were in charge

it would be an entirely different ballgame.

If you think fighting the good fight for women is an uphill battle with the Dems, consider that the Repugs wouldn't even let you into the clubhouse. I guess, as you pointed out earlier, it's a matter of degree. Still, as difficult and frustrating as the Dems may be, they're light-years head of the Repugs.

[Kanary]

13. I guess you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.

I have *NEVER* had republicans I know use the "c" word, and if they did and I called them on it, they wouldn't turn around and blast me with worse. That Happens HERE All The Time. Clubhouse? Here? No, I don't think so. Can't even get common courtesy. I will repeat: I have NEVER had republicans talk to me as disrespectfully as I have received here.

I know that doesn't fit into your thesis, but there it is.

If that's "light-years ahead", then something is very *WRONG*.

Kanary

[LunaC]

15. Your experiences have been quite different than mine

Hence the difference in perspectives.

Again, my original point centered around the two opposing forces of the Collective Whole, not the exceptions to the majority.


May I ask.....if you feel the Democrats are non-suppoprtive of women's rights and if you are so vehemently offended by the lack of common courtesy and the use of crass, deragatory sexual slurs, why are you still here? This is intended as an honest inquiry and NOT a smart-ass barb. Please accept it as such.

[Kanary]

16. thank you for proving my point

with one more invitation to leave.

You want me to say I'm leaving the party? You just about have it.

Keep going and I'll say it.

I'm so very SICK OF THIS.

All the spiritual stuff that you are fond of points to people looking into themselves, and looking for their OWN LOG IN THEIR OWN EYE.
but you think it only applies to others.

I spoke politely to you, thinking you were actually wanting to listen and hear another point of view, rather than the same "us and them" you claim to decry. You had a fine opportunity to add to some understanding. But, you couldn't resist the opportunity to marginalize me, and let me know I'm one of the "them". Good going.

Now, for your last word that you can't wait to get in.......

Have at it, sweetie.

byenow...

Kanary

[LunaC]

19. Waaaaaaaay too much anger isn't healthy

You've repeatedly exposed your unhappiness with the environment here and with the Party in general and I was honestly curious to know why you contined to fight the good fight under such oppression. In response, you totally flip out. There's no point in attempting to continue a conversation when you make unfounded assumptions and put words in my mouth that I never said or intended to imply. I'm sorry you've had such seemingly negative experiences here but don't blame ME and dump on my doorstep because I asked for better insight into your perspectives and motivations.

Sheesh, not everybody is the Enemy!

[Kanary]

20. And neither is your self-righteousness

Just like the RW continually poking the liberals in the eye, then being oh-so-shocked when they finally get pissed, doing the same to your DEM brothers and sisters is just as disengenious.

You want to provoke, you get anger.

quite simple...

Kanary

[LunaC]

21. Whatever......

You might want to look into anger management counseling.

[janx]

7. AGAIN--

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand;
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert
A shape with a lion's body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?

---------William Butler Yeats

[leftofthedial]

14. what's a spirit?

where is a spiritual place?

I'm decidedly human and that is why I am a liberal.

[LunaC]

17. If there is kindness, caring and compassion in your heart

then spirit isn't far away.

[Kanary]

18. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Disturbed]

22. Indivdualism

Isn't that a core issue?

To paint the Right Wing with not caring may be too broad of a paint job.

The Right Wing has a lot of issues. I am sure that some in that mind set are what has been described in the 1st post but are we as Americans now in a hopeless situation of being polarized beyond any compromises?