Aren't You Just Thrilled to Know That the Iraqi Soccer Team

[louis c]

defeated Portugal today, 4-2.

While young American men and women are fighting and dying in Iraq. While young American men and women are risking their lives and having their lives torn apart by unspeakable injuries, young Iraqi men of the same age get to go to the Olympics.

Please don't tell me that story of their past torture at the hands of Saddam and his sons. All the more so, they should be in Iraq fighting for whatever this misguided adventure is before any brave Americans are.

After all, this is supposed to be about a free, democratic, secure Iraq. If this is true, not one American should be fighting until all the Iraqis who believe in this same cause are doing so.

How would you feel if you got word today that your son or daughter was killed or maimed, while these healthy young Iraqi men were celebrating their soccer victory? I wonder how the family of Pat Tilman feels today?

Mr. Cheney, this is what I mean by "sensitivity", by the way.

[OneTwentyoNine]

1. Vietnam all over again.....

Young 18-20 year old Vietnamese guys riding their little scooters all over Saigon and other places. Meanwhile back at the ranch our guys death toll climbs to over 50,000.

Its all bullshit....

David

[fdr_hst_fan]

2. The Olympics sucks anyway-

it's ALL political. I've wanted to see it die ever since '72, when our basketball team was robbed of the Gold by the crooked Russians! But your point IS valid!

[louis c]

187. kick

[rockymountaindem]

3. That just blew my mind, in a tragic sort of way.

Nominated for homepage.

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. Hell, WE probably paid for them

to be there so the world can see how "liberation" has begun. :( I wouldn't doubt it. I agree with everything you said.

[theboss]

5. Actually, I am thrilled...

And I hate soccer with every fiber of my being.

Iraqis are human beings and deserve happiness too. Anything that provides a break for them from the horrors of the last 18 months (and 24 years for that matter) is a good thing.

Would you prefer the soccer team be holed up in a mosque somewhere firing ancient Soviet weapons at Marines?

[louis c]

8. No

Ted Williams, is just such an example. Iraqis owe allegiance to their country before Americans owe allegiance to Iraq.

If these twenty healthy guys were doing their duty, twenty more Americans could stay home.

It's kinda like Bush in 1970. Send others to do my job. I'm all for it, but I'd rather play than fight. If you think it is alright for these guys to play soccer while their country is at war, while Americans do the fighting for them, then Bush was right to avoid Viet-Nam, and be in favor of others fighting the war.

[theboss]

11. What should they be doing?

Ted Williams was a genuine hero, but so were the people who toured in the USO.

I imagine it takes a lot of effort just to get out of bed in the morning if you are an Iraqi and you happen to have a bed. I have a feeling millions of people in Iraq feel wonderful today because of these 20 guys.

So they can make 10 million people feel happy or they could be clearing a mine field. I think they are doing more for their country this way.

[louis c]

15. Let Me Remind You

of how Americans acted when we thought our country's survival was at stake. Let me preface this by saying that our survival is not at stake now, supposedly Iraq's is.

After Pearle Harbor, every professional baseball player enlisted. The league then consisted of older men and handicapped men. There were no Olympics. And we weren't even fighting on our soil.

We are being told we cannot leave Iraq, because chaos will ensue. This line is coming from both candidates. It is incomprehensible to me that a single American should risk his or her life while 20 or so able bodied Iraqi men practice soccer for over a year to go to the Olympics.

I will be interested in what they all do when the games are over. Let's see if they take up arms to fight along side our soldiers, continue to practice their "sport" or they melt into the community.

[Cat Atomic]

103. Why should they fight for Texaco? I don't understand your point.

I don't see why any self respecting Iraqi would assist the army that invaded and occupies their country. Or are you saying they should go back to Iraq and take up arms against the Americans?

[louis c]

104. The Point is That the Iraqi

Government is not legitimate. It exists by the propping up of the American Government.

Young Americans are sent to Iraq by the corrupt, lying, dog shit Administration in Washington.

The soccer team is subsidized and supported by the puppet Iraqi Government.

So, why should our sons and daughters fight in Iraq, while they get to play soccer?

In other words, I don't care if an Iraqi has to fight in Iraq while another Iraqi plays soccer, but it is incomprehensible to me that an American has to fight in Iraq while an Iraqi plays soccer.

(on edit) I have to go to work, I'll reply at 6:00 PM

Let's carry Ohio and Florida.

[theboss]

105. I still want to know what they should do instead

Assign jobs to the members of the soccer squad, because you are still just rambling.

[louis c]

109. If they favor

the Iraqi puppet regime, they should fight for it. If they don't, they should give up their "Soccer Scholarship" in protest.

American men and women should not be forced to fight in Iraq under any condition, but it adds insult to injury to do it so able bodied Iraqi men can play soccer year 'round.

Another example was in 1991 Kuwait. How did you feel about Americans fighting and dying to liberate that country while the Monarchy and their families were holed up in 5 star hotels in Paris?

No Filipino's went off on some government sponsored jaunt in 1942 while Americans were fighting and dying there. They fought alongside us for there own sovereignty. If this war is, as I believe, a farce,this soccer bullshit just rubs our faces in the dog shit.

That's as concise as I can make it. If you fall for Bush's and his puppet, Alawi's bullshit propaganda about this Iraqi "team", maybe this election is not so safe after all.

[yellowjacket]

143. Your argument is ridiculous.

And it makes no sense. Basically, anyone experiencing any prosperity or relative happiness in Iraq should cease and desist immediately because the Americans are still there? I guarantee if you asked the Iraqis if they are willing to forgo 20 soldiers in order to have an Olympic soccer team, the overwhelming answer would be yes. No question about it.

And for the record, it made me very happy to see them win. And against Portugal no less.

[louis c]

168. How about asking an American Parent

if they would rather have one of the twenty Americans home instead of the Iraqis playing soccer. That's the fair question.

I don't give a F**k what the Iraqis do as long as it doesn't involve Americans or Americans taking their place.

Why do you persist in changing the question.

Why should American soldiers fight in Iraq so able bodied Iraqi men can play soccer all the year round in safety?

Get it. Not the American Government, American soldiers, many of who don't want to be there in the first place. Get it. Americans dying so adult Iraqi males get to avoid fighting there own war. Get it. The Iraqi government that sponsors the team with US money. Get it.

So Bush can show a contrast in the present Puppet Government as opposed to the Torturous Saddam.

Did anyone actually prove that these soccer players were brutally tortured? You think this could be another on of those "Saddam threw the babies away to steal the incubators" stories that was later proved to be false.

My surprise is not that the general public falls for this shit, it's that DUers, who are supposed to know better, do.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

177. that's a load of BS

"Americans dying so Iraqi males get to fight their own war". Whose war is this? This is Bush's war. The American people and the Iraqi people were just caught up in the middle of a fight between Bush and Saddam.

"Why should American soldiers fight so Iraqis can play soccer year round in safety." Because, supposedly, our mission in this stupid war is "rebuilding" Iraq and making it safe for people to live, work, and yes, play. Would you prefer endless war?!?!?!?!??!?!?

"Did anyone actually prove that these soccer players were brutally tortured?"
OMG. You sound like a Holocaust denier. And maybe not all those SPECIFIC players weren't, but some of them were, and athletes in general were in a pretty shitty situation.

[louis c]

188. All Hail George Bush

the Great White Christian Liberator.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

195. It seems you can't even defend your own arguments

Instead, you resort to sarcastic knee-jerk responses. Much like the right-wing pundits we all love to hate. Do you expect any self-respecting liberal to take you seriously if you sound like Rush Limbaugh?? Let me try to get this into your head one last time: I hate George Bush. I detest his policies and theories. I, Krasnaya Lastochka, am NOT a Bush supporter (or enabler, or whatever other names you called me.). I can't stand "the Great White Christian Liberator". Now please, explain calmly and rationally why supporting the Iraqi Olympic soccer team makes me a Bush supporter. I guess I'm just a stupid little russkie chick, but I don't understand your logic. Please explain.

P.S. Please don't respond with another sarcastic little "all hail George Bush". This is supposed to be a DISCUSSION group.

[louis c]

198. Please read reply number 173

[Kitka]

156. Apparently you don't understand one of the key ideas of the olympics...

that all countires should be able to take part in a cessation of fighting to participate in the olympics.

You also don't seem to understand the concept that all able-bodied persons shouldn't be forced into fighting a war - I wonder if you support a draft in the U.S.?

[cidliz2004]

110. Last I heard the Iraqi's didn't INVITE US, BEG US OR EVEN

ASK US TO BE THERE. Remember, that this is the Bush War. Remember that Iraqi was "merely" the easiest country to take over for a permanent sight for U.S. bases to be built (14 of them to be exact).

Before you begrudge the Iraqi's a soccer win, why don't you ask them how they feel about the thousands of Iraqi's that are dead, wounded and or maimed because of Bush's war.

Remember, they are being VICTIMIZED AND USED by Bush.

[louis c]

111. Maybe Karl Rove

can you use you in Bush's Olympics commercial that I just saw on Fox News.

Hurry-up, they need a voice like your's.

[louis c]

117. And so are we

but some of us know better.

[cidliz2004]

135. What the Hell are you talking about?

Our soldiers are victims of Bush
The Iraqi civilians are victims of Bush
The Iraqi "fighters" are victims of Bush
The American public (most of it I believe) are victims of Bush
The soccer players are also victims and pawns - being used by Bush

GROW UP, This isn't about being pissed at athletes, it isn't their fault that WE started dropping bombs on them and killing them and wrecking their country. Why don't you be just as dumb as Bush and be mad at the victims. THAT IS WHAT BUSH WANTS YOU TO BE.


BUSH IS TO BLAME NOT THE SOLDIERS, IRAQI CIVILIANS, SOME IRAQI FIGHTERS, AMERICAN PUBLIC....USE LOGIC INSTEAD OF PURE GUT EMOTION.

HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF SOMEBODY CAME AND STARTED BOMBING THE STATE THAT YOU LIVE IN AND MANY OF YOUR FAMILY, FRIENDS AND ACQUAINTENCES WERE INJURED OR KILLED.....HOW WOULD YOU FEEL?????? WOULD YOU LOVE THE BOMBERS BECAUSE THEY SAY THAT THEY ARE DOING IT FOR YOUR OWN GOOD?

THE INFANTILE RESPONSE IS TO BE PISSED AT THE (VICTIMS) HOW INFANTILE ARE ALL OF YOU?

I don't believe in pointing fingers and sitting in judgement of people that we just bombed and killed and say that that they cannot live thier lives because we stuck our nose into thier culture, land and business.

[louis c]

144. Another Bush Ploy

works with the Gullible public.

Now, when you ask yourself, what kind of person would have fallen for the Bush Administration's logic of invading Iraq, just look in the mirror.

[louis c]

21. No able bodied men

of draft age ever toured with the USO in WWII, by the way.

[theboss]

29. Except for Frank Sinatra

And a lot of those ballplayers toward the world as exhibition teams.

And a lot of celebrities like Jimmy Stewart and, well, Ronald Reagan made propaganda films.

Everyone has a role in a crisis. Not everyone has to be in the field with a rifle.

[louis c]

39. No foreign troops protected America

while Sinatra sang. Even if this war is a scam.

Young Americans are being forced to prop up this illegal government in Iraq, while that same government sends these guys off to the games.

[theboss]

43. And young Americans are going to be there if they aren't in Athens

This is totally a red herring.

Whether Iraq has a soccer team or not, American troops are going to be there. They are going to be there under Bush. They are going to be there under Kerry.

And since they are going to be there for another five years under the best of circumstances, I would rather the Iraqi people have something to be happy about once in a while.

[OneTwentyoNine]

119. How about the message it sends and how Whore TV will present it?

I can understand where people are coming from wanting Iraq to have a team but at this point in TIME I think it sends the wrong message.

Pimped on Whore TV they'll paint the Iraqi situation as good,under control and Bush was a genius and invading so Iraqi's can participate in the Olympics. In the REAL World we know the situation in Iraq isn't this pretty little picture that will be presented on FOX or MSGOP.

Watch,if Iraq would win a medal in soccer this will be pimped like you've never seen. Meanwhile the body bags just keep coming back...

David

[louis c]

145. Finally, some one who gets it

[robcon]

6. It's a terrific story.

Portugal is one of the best teams in the world, and Iraq's victory is very special - especially after the history of Iraq's national teams under Saddam Hussein.

[louis c]

22. It's a terrific story for the Bush propaganda machine

if you fall for this shit, and let them spin it.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

125. I AGREE!

[Snow]

7. I'm really not following this -

you're saying the soccer players should be fighting for the same cause our soldiers are fighting for, alongside them, perhaps? The cause being something like "free, democratic, secure Iraq"? The question I have, then, whom are they fighting? Do those people want that as well? Should the soccer players be fighting on the side opposing the occupying American forces? What about other countries where there are struggles to establish something like a free nation going on? Maybe some place like Mynmaar or Afghanistan or Uzbekhistan. Should they also abstain from sending teams to the Olympics?

I dunno. To some extent I agree, but I think you're oversimplifying. Further, I don't think the smaller, poorer nations are nearly as jaded as we are about the Olympics. For them, it says something about who they are, and gets them out there making a statement that they, too are a part of the world community. And I'm as cynical as the next guy, but as someone with one foot in Korean culture, I wept during the opening procession of the Sydney Olympics when the two Koreas marched in together.

[louis c]

9. The Soccer Team is Representing This Phony

Government in Iraq that Americans are dying for. They get to play, and we get to die.

Now do you get it?

[malatesta1137]

25. if Americans get to go to the Olympics

and they are the ones who started this illegal war, why shouldn't the Iraqis have the same right? These Iraqi players are representing the Iraqi people, not the American-installed puppet government.

Americans are dying in Iraq because Americans started this carnage, not Iraqis. Give me a f... break!

Iraqis have been playing soccer for decades, only the weak-minded would see this as a publicity victory for The Bush Crime Family.

[louis c]

30. They absolutely represent this puppet government

when the Canadians Boo our national anthem or our flag, do you think they hate me and you, or do you think it's meant for Bush? Grow Up.

It is Bush propaganda and you've bought it, hook line and sinker.

Congratulations.

[malatesta1137]

35. Iraqis have the RIGHT to play soccer

Americans invaded their country illegally and now, to top it all off, are asking them to fight their war for Halliburton instead of playing in the Olympics? Insanely ABSURD.

[Vladimir]

36. You are half right

instead of playing football, they should be fighting Halliburton.

[malatesta1137]

40. AMERICANS should be fighting Halliburton

Not Iraqis. Halliburton is an American monstrosity, not Iraqi. Enough Iraqi blood has been spilt.

[Vladimir]

49. Yes but these Iraqis

need not be out there, projecting a picture of normality, while their countrymen are being killed by the illegal occupation. They would be doing their country a lot more good by refusing to attend while under occupation IMO.

[malatesta1137]

53. that's NOT the Olympic spirit

to refuse to play. They should play and win, to show the world that the Americans' quest for oil and world domination will not stop them.

[Vladimir]

55. Blow the Olympic spirit

All they are showing the world is that the puppet Iraqi government has succeded in sending a team to the Olympics. Sorry, I know I am a bit hard nosed about this, and believe me I have plenty of empathy with the Iraqi people having experienced a tiny fraction of that hell myself in 1999, but I just don't think this does the Iraqis in occupied Iraq much good.

[theboss]

58. I think the fundamental difference is I want this to somehow work out

I am not rooting for the US to fail in Iraq; I would like to see a stable government with a certain level of democracy. I am certainly not hoping Sadr or the Baathists succeed. I don't think things are going to work out, but anything that moves the situation towards something resembling stability is good.

A lot of posters seem to want Bush to be embarrassed in Iraq without much concern for the number of Americans and Iraqis who would die in such a situation or the government that would result.

Iraq is a total disaster and we never should have done this. That doesn't mean we have to hope for things to get worse.

[Vladimir]

62. I am certainly not hoping for it

to get worse. And to be honest with you, I couldn't care less about Bush's embarassment. But what I do know, is that if this 'works out' Iraqis will be stuck with a sham democracy backed up by forign force for a long time. Look at Bosnia, Afganistan, Kosovo. IMO, the only way for things to get better would be if all foreign forces pull out or are forced to withdraw. I do not believe there would be a civil war, but I do believe that Iraq would then have a chance of becoming a democracy of sorts.

[fujiyama]

94. Why are you blaming

the Iraqi soccer players for this?

It's not like they asked us to come over there and do this for them. They're making the best of a shitty situation. Their nation is a war zone.

Are you saying we actually did liberate them and that you're bitter that they're not doing a better job of governing themselves?

I don't see what the point of this is. This isn't the Iraqis fault. In fact I have a lot of respect for many of them - to have the will to go on and try to rebuild their lives inspite of such misery and chaos. Also, the Olympics is a way for them to show their pride at being who they are. Good for them that they beat Portugal. Does that mean we still should have gone there? Hell no but I still don't understand how them having a soccer team and a Olympics team in general is a bad thing.

[koopie57]

10. I understand your anger and follow your logic

but IMHO I think the anger should be directed at * and those who started this crazy war. The Iraqis didn't ask us to come there and liberate them, they fought us tooth and nail, so I'm not sure I think these athletes should throw away a dream they have worked years for just because * chose this time to liberate them. Bush started this mess, everyone else is a victim of his vendetta. It is hard and things are so crazy with up being down, good being bad. But the problem is not the Iraqi soccer team, it is * and his screwed up sense of right and wrong, morality, decency and his over the top opinion of his place in this world.

[Vladimir]

12. As the soccer team represents

the occupied American protectorate of Iraq, I am naturally disappointed.

[daleo]

13. This keeps them from joining the resistance, anyway

For a little while.

[geek tragedy]

14. The naysayers here are 100% full of shit.

Those guys over there aren't representing Bush. They aren't representing Allawi. They aren't representing Sistani or Sadr.

They are representing the IRAQI PEOPLE.

Stuff like this does mean a great deal to the common man and woman in Iraq.

They have had very little to celebrate. It is outrageously boorish and condescending to begrudge these poor people a chance to celebrate something as an entire nation.

[louis c]

17. Other than the death of Americans

you mean?

[malatesta1137]

28. what about the 30,000 plus civilian deaths

caused by Americans?

[louis c]

34. I'm 100% against the war

but I'm also 100% against hypocrisy.

If it's about Iraqi freedom, let them fight for it before American young men and women do. If it's, as I believe, a scam, then let's get out and leave the country to them.

In either case, no American should have to die so a grown, adult, healthy, young, Iraqi man can play F**king soccer while the war is still going on.

[malatesta1137]

38. do you think this is about Iraqi freedom?

Don't make me laugh. This is about American hegemony, Halliburton and Bechtel. American companies. So why should IRAQIS die for them? Young Americans are dying because AMERICANS started this carnage.

You bought the Bush lie that this is about Iraqi freedom. Simply pathetic.

[louis c]

61. Try Reading comprehension

I said "if it is about Iraqi freedom, as Bush says". Also, the next line is
"If it is a scam war, as I believe, we should get out". "As I believe", get it. Reading comprehension. Try it, you'll like it.

[Vladimir]

20. They are indeed representing Allawi

and as such giving the impression of normality when:

1) Allawi is a puppet

2) Every day Iraqi civilians are dying at the hands of the occupation and resistance alike

3) I doubt very much the Iraqi people in Iraq give a shit about this, as opposed to trying to survive till tomorrow.

[theboss]

31. And they used to represent Saddam

Should they have stayed home then?

Actually, the Iraqis care an unbelievable amount about this. It's a soccer-crazed nation. I imagine every tv and radio in that country was tuned into the game today.

[Vladimir]

33. They absolutely should have

stayed home under Saddam, the argument is the same and if you are looking for a Saddam apologist, you are looking in the wrong place.

As for whether they care, I can't read their minds and I have no doubt that our wonderful media will try to tell us as much. What I do know is that I am a very very comitted football fan, but while I was in Belgrade in 1999, you wouldn't have found me giving a shit. My mother had to remind me that we (Arsenal) were playing a semi-final in the cup against Man U cos she read it in the papers. Priorities change.

PS And Belgrade was like a springtime picnic with a naked Kelly Brook by comparison to Iraq.

[theboss]

41. I totally disagree

Churchill insisted that the theaters stay open during the Battle of Britain.

Roosevelt insisted that Major League baseball play games during WWII.

And you can walk into any horrible ghetto in any war-torn part of the world and find a group of kids playing soccer with a filthy taped up scrap of cloth.

People need distractions during dark times. By your argument, anyone living on the West Bank for the past 40 years should never sit down and watch a soccer game. They should spend 24 hours a day/ 7 days a week focussed on the struggle.

(Of course, I'm a guy who had a six-hour surgery on a Friday afternoon and insisted that a phone be brought into the recovery room so that I could listen to the radio broadcast of a high school football playoff game 200 miles away. Granted, I was unconscious 70 percent of the time and in pain the other 30 percent, but I still remembering smiling when my team blocked a punt to take a three-touchdown lead).

[Vladimir]

47. Well there you go

the Russians on the other hand regarded those playing football in occupied parts of Russia as collaborators during WWII. Different places, different reactions.

Of course you need distractions for morale, you are very right. However, the problem I have with this is that it sends out a message to the rest of the world that Iraq is stabilizing and returning to some sort of normality. It helps legitimize what is going on there. And this feeds into the propaganda that we are fed every day about how Iraq is getting better, about how the resistance are just a bunch of extremists and about how the majority of Iraqis would be happy to get on with lives under Halliburton if only these pesky foreign terrorists would stop fighting the good guys (i.e. the US). So it is counterproductive to those Iraqis that want a free Iraq (the vast majority of them), well beyond any short term morale boost they may feel.

[theboss]

54. Maybe the soccer players support the US

Their coach didn't have many kind words today, but I know most Iraqi athletes were terrified of Uday, who ran the sports programs. Who knows?

I don't think the situation on the ground in Iraq is as simple as we make it out to be here.

(And frankly, I am not sure what good a symbolic protest does in the middle of a Middle Eastern war zone, where symbolism seems to be of the "chopping off of heads" variety).

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

155. finally, someone on this whole crazy thread

that I agree with. Soccer is soccer. Politics is politics. But the point of the Olympics is peaceful competition and national pride...in a populist sort of way.


By the way, geek tragedy, I like your name!

[nini]

16. Being of Portuguese descent ... NO

I have friends in Portugal who are probably losing their minds today over this !

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

157. Yeah, and being Russian...

I'm incredibly dismayed that neither the womens or mens soccer teams even qualified...and we got major ass kicked in the Euro Cup a few months ago. But what can you do? I guess I'll cheer for Poland...but shoot! They didn't qualify either! Count your blessings, my Portuguese friend!

P.S. However, my sincerest condolences on your country's loss.

[qanda]

18. It's wonderful that their new dictator lets them play

I hope they win, the Iraqis need some good news.

[OneTwentyoNine]

19. I don't think its right....

We just lost another guy from the small town of Derby,just south of Wichita. That makes three or four from a small town of about 25K.

The Iraqi's that want all these freedoms,including playing soccer in the Olympics need to do the heavy lifting to get to that point.

This is EXACTLY what happened in Nam. All the 18-20 year olds saw our guys fighting and DIEING for their freedom and said SCREW IT,let em die. Better them than me...

David

[louis c]

24. David, you got it

right on the money.

[TeacherCreature]

51. Good for the Viet Namese

They didn't ask us to be there and neither did the Iraqis.
Let the american troops come to their senses and refuse to continue killing Iraqi people.

[malatesta1137]

52. we lost another guy in Iraq

and you think Iraqi soccer players are the problem???? Blame Bush and let Iraqis play, let their victory bring a little happiness to the Iraqi people. It's the Americans who started this carnage, it's the Americans who should end it.

[peacetalksforall]

23. I can see both sides...I side with 'theboss' in the posting above.

If you look at it from our side (not the Bush side) ...it makes the consequences of war even more chilling and terribly unfair. If you look at it from the Bush side...it is another sickening poo poo propaganda 'opportunity'.

But, if you look at it from the human side of an Iraqi...it is probably thrilling. And the idealistic way I would look at it would be the hope that people would be uplifted to the point that they would prefer compete through sports than by killing.

[louis c]

26. Yah, aint it great

Americans have the honor of dying in Iraq so that able bodied Iraqi men can pull a Bush, avoid service, to play soccer year 'round.

Pat Tilman would be so proud.

[theboss]

32. I am getting a weird vibe from your posts

It's almost like you are blaming the Iraqi people for this mess. You've never said what they should be doing exactly? Working with Americans? Fighting Americans? Working with Baathists? Figthing Baathists? Joining Al Qaeda? Joining Al Sadr? Opening a coffee shop? I imagine most Iraqis don't know what to do or who to support. Fuck, I barely know who to support at this point. If I was 22 and had spent my entire life playing soccer, I would probably choose soccer over dodging bullets from 20 different factions.

Define "heavy lifting."

[louis c]

37. No American should have to die

so a healthy, adult Iraq Man can play soccer year 'round.

If it is about Iraqi freedom, as Bush says, then they should stay and fight for it. If it is as I believe, a scam war, we should leave and let them sort out this mess.

Under no circumstances should a single American die in Iraq while healthy Iraqi men practice soccer year 'round in Jordan, where they can be safe.

[LisaL]

48. How ridiculous

How utterly ridiculous.
No single American should die in Iraq? Well, if US didn't attack Iraq, Americans would not be dying in Iraq. It's rather simple.
But WTF does it have to do with Iraqis playing soccer?

[malatesta1137]

57. Americans are not dying

"so a healthy, adult Iraq Man can play soccer year 'round." How absurd. They are dying so Cheney and Bush's war profiteers can make a huge buck with Halliburton and Bechtel. Wake up. Don't blame Iraqi soccer players for the American butchery in Iraq.

[louis c]

83. the Soccer players will be used for

Bush's political ends, if we let him.

He's already got all of you folks sucked in.

[Dorian Gray]

126. Sucked in?

I think you are missing the point that everyone is making. This war is a result of the Americans. So, why shouldn't the Iraqi team do what it does best?

Just because their win MAY be used for propaganda of some sort, does that mean that they shouldn't be allowed to win? Well, maybe according to you it does. But, they are human beings who were invaded by OUR country. So, why shouldn't they play the game that they are talented at. Your inability to appreciate that they are playing seems to beclosed minded. Why are their lives worth less than ours. Many of our athletes are in the Olympics. Why should the Iraqi men not be allowed to be there, as well?

[louis c]

138. They should

either fight alongside the Americans, if they believe the Government that sent them to the Olympics is legit, or refuse to take the Soccer Scholarship if they believe the war and occupation is unjust.

Americans that did not volunteer for this war are being denied return to the states even when their tour is over.

Here's the final word.

Young American soldiers who don't believe the war in Iraq is just still must fight in it because of military law. If they refuse, they will go to jail. These young, able bodied Iraqi men who believe the war is just or are accepting the government's sponsorship to train and go to the Olympics, get to avoid the battle.

Sounds like George Bush and John Kerry in 1969 to me.

Only you think Bush was correct.

[TeacherCreature]

60. What are you talking about? You make NO sense

It is not their fault that we won't leave Iraq.
If they weren't playing soccer they would probably be shooting at Americans.
You're argument is disgusting me. Why shouldn't the Iraqi people have something to feel good about? Are you one of those people who think men in prison also deserve to dig ditches all day? God forbid anyone find some escape from the misery we have foisted on the people in Iraq.
Do you get that 90% of the people there want us OUT? They hate us. They don't see us as liberators. They deserve this victory if it restores one ounce of pride in the young people there who are seeing their people slaughtered day after day.

This victory doesn't give bush any points, not when it is clear the people there hate us and don't like the interim government either.
The men are playing for the Iraqi people and I would LOVE to see them take the whole thing.

[louis c]

146. They are doing Bush's bidding

Sports for propaganda. There's already a Bush political commercial in the works, ready to go, about this.

It's all bull shit, and even DUers are eating it up.

Hopeless, just hopeless.

[Dorian Gray]

160. Oh, Bullsh*t...

They played soccer there before we invaded Iraq. It was one of the most popular sports in their country. Why should we not begrudge them the one thing that is bright in their lives at this moment?

You sound like they should be forced to fight in this war that they may want no part of. They are soccer players. Your argument would have more credence (albeit not much more) if you were complaining about the American athletes in the Olympics, not helping out with our country's war effort.

[louis c]

191. All Hail the Great Christian Liberator

and repeat after me.......... Four More Years, Four More Years, Four More Years.................

Funny, you reject my "bull shit" but eat up Karl Rove's

I'm a strong Kerry supporter that gives one day a week up to canvass in the swing state on NH, who do you think Karl Rove is with?

[RedFury]

27. Easy Choice

It was either beat Portugal or be handed over to American MPs.

No wonder they won.

[Pastiche423]

42. I am absolutely blown away

by many of the responses on this thread.

Why in hell would it not be more than alright for Iraqis to be in the Olympics?

It is our government that is bombing the fuck out of their country. They did not ask for us for assistance.

"We" have murdered tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis and you are pissed about twenty of their athletes being in the Olympics?

:wtf:

[LisaL]

44. Exactly.

What a ridiculous thread. I would understand if republican had an opinion like that, but here? WTF?
Iraq didn't go to war with US, US attacked it.
You talking about healthy young men-well, great, at least they have some left.

[malatesta1137]

59. ridiculous indeed

and its author is now gone. How convenient.

[louis c]

65. malatesta---Read No. 64

maybe you'll finally get it

[fujiyama]

95. Agree completely

This is like when people here blame people in developing countries for "stealing American jobs", while in reality they should be blaming American corporations for taking the jobs there.

The poster seems incapable of actually placing the blame where it belongs -- squarely on the Bush administration. His reasoning seems to be that if Americans are suffering there, they should all be suffering too.

It really isn't very compassionate and it makes little if any sense. Whose fault is it we're there? Were we invited by soccer players to "liberate" them? Were we asked by them?

[theboss]

45. It's almost a blame the victim scenario, isn't it?

Their country is occupied by a foregin army and has about sixteen insurrections taking place simultaneously. Therefore, they should be sitting home getting shot or something instead of doing the only thing they probably know how to do.

[LisaL]

46. YES

God forbid some of them alive and well while Americans are dying.
Well, hello?
US had attacked Iraq, and now you want Iraqis to do what?

[louis c]

64. There are only two choices

We either should be in Iraq or not.

If we should, which is a position I disagree with, then these guys should be fighting along side Americans.

If we shouldn't, which is the position I take, then get the F**k out, and let them sort out the mess. Then, I have no objection to them playing soccer to their hearts' content.

In the mean time, this is great Republican propaganda. You know, with all the torture of the team under Saddam, and America returning Iraq to normalcy.

Your position would be a great Repuke spot, not mine. My position will make Americans angry at Bush for risking American lives for Iraqis who are unwilling to make a sacrifice for their on country. You're playing into Bush's hands, not me.

How convenient.

[LisaL]

67. What in the world?

What in the world are you talking about?
Iraqis refuse to make sacrifice for their own country and should be fighting alongside Americans?
Have you had your head checked recently?
Iraq and US are not allies.
US had attacked Iraq and turn their country into the mess.

[louis c]

76. The Puppet Iraq Government

is what Americans are dying for, just like Vietnam. I agree with you. The war is wrong and a dismal failure.

The soccer team represents the government of Iraq. Only the U.S. Olympic team is privately paid for, nearly every other country's Olympic team represents their government.

Try to follow this logic, if the Puppet Government in Iraq exists because Americans are dying to protect it, and that same government sponsors the soccer team, then Americans are dying for the soccer team. If A=B and B=C then A=C.

This whole soccer success in Iraq will be celebrated on Fox News, you just wait and see how the Repukes spin this, you just wait and see.

Then you can get an appointment for your examination.

[Pastiche423]

80. Is that the reason YOU

think "we" are fighting this war?

For the Iraqi government?

[louis c]

166. No

That's the reason they give to us. I know they're lying about the war.

By the same token, I know they're lying and manipulating us on the Olympic shit about Afghanistan and Iraq.

You want to trust them, go right ahead. This is another incubator story like 1991 Kuwait.

[fujiyama]

96. The thing is

Iraqis don't give a shit if Fox spins this or not. All they will believe is their country won a soccer game at the Olympics. They won't see this as the political propaganda the administration will use it as (and you're right about that though - the administration will use this as propaganda) and they won't believe they're representing a puppet government. They believe they are representing the PEOPLE of Iraq.

Frankly, I couldn't care less if they had a soccer team or not. I didn't want this war. Americans shouldn't be dying for this bullshit -- but neither should Iraqis.

[malatesta1137]

71. why should Iraqis be fighting

along with Americans, who are their killers, rapists and torturers?

These players were used politically by Saddam and now by Bush, corrupt politicians do that. But it shouldn't keep them from going to the Olympics.

This is not their war, it's America's.

[Pastiche423]

74. Tens of thousands of dead Iraqis

is not sacrifice enough?

How about a hundred thousand? A milliion?

How many, in your book, would be enough?

[TeacherCreature]

63. He's probably just pissed the Americans didn't make it

into the finals

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

163. kick!

:kick:

[carpetbagger]

50. Would Portugal be Old or New Europe?

If they're Old Europe, I say those surrender monkeys deserve what they get. I hope they get stung by a Freedom Man-o-War.

[Cocoa]

56. I don't like it, but for a different reason

I don't begrudge the Iraqi players from playing, or any Iraqi from enjoying the game.

But I protest in advance the RW columnists and mainstream pundit whores for their inevitably using this as a club against critics of the war.

[louis c]

66. That's where my response

turns the tables on them.

[Cocoa]

70. imo, it's like blaming the troops

I, and many other people who hate the war, have nothing against the troops, despite some people's efforts to characterize opposition to the war that way.

Likewise with my eye-rolling at the Iraq soccer team story.

[TeacherCreature]

75. bullshit

It is not the fault of these soccer players or the Iraqi people that we are too wimpy to insist our media do it's job right. They don't need to be held responsible for our failures to make our government and media honest.

[louis c]

81. 950 American dead, 4,500 injured, 30,000 Iraqis dead

so that Iraq can play soccer. I'm just thrilled.

[TeacherCreature]

97. you have made a case for nothing

this is possibly the most hateful thread I have read all summer.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

196. Amen, TC!!

Amen, TeacherCreature. I too am absolutely appalled by the level of hatred and paranoia coming from this thread. Aren't the Olympics supposed to be about peace and cooperation, (plus a healthy dose of national pride)?

[BlueCollar]

72. if we allow them to

by criticizing the Iraqui players' achievements we give them the ammunition to criticize us.

[BlueCollar]

68. as a former player and fan

I am thrilled that for 90 minutes hundreds of thousands of Iraqui citizens were able to focus on something other than the death and destruction and violence that surrounds them daily.

as a fan of the games, I hope that there will be more instances where, for a few minutes or hours, national pride in a the achievements of a countryman or woman, will transcend the sectarian violence and bigotry that has become an all too frequent fact of life for millions of people around the world.


and I understand how frustrated and angry we might be that thousands of US and coalition troops are in harms way tonight...

all the more reason to work hard to bring them home, and until they are home, we pressure our congressmen ans senators to fully fund the VA, provide benefits to the Guardsmen and their families...

in the meantime, the games will bring pride to millions, as it should be...

Thrilled...yes...sorry about the circumstance...yes...if I were Portuguese...no...not thrilled

[wicket]

69. Amen to that.

[louis c]

77. and Bush and Cheney can use it

to their advantage.

Hello, Fox News.

[theboss]

79. And they can't use US wins in the Olympic to bolster their image?

You've convinced me. No American athlete should compete in Athens while we are at war in Iraq.

Bring the team home.

[louis c]

84. The US Olympic team

is privately run, and can't be used as affectively for political reasons as the Iraqi's.

[cidliz2004]

137. POINT IS BUSH/CHANEY WILL USE THIS

THEY ARE PULLING EVERYBODIES STRINGS

WE ARE AMERICANS, SO WE ARE GUILTY OF BOMBING IRAQ AND KILLING AND INJURING THOUSANDS OF IRAQI'S, WE SHOULD BE MADE TO PAY

BY YOUR LOGIC, WE ARE AS GUILTY AS BUSH BECASUE WE ARE AMERICANS AND IT IS OUR SOLDIERS OVER IN IRAQ KILLING THEM, SO WE ARE AS GUILTY AS BUSH/CHANEY- RIGHT?

BY YOUR STANDARDS, THE ANSWER IS YES

IF THE SOCCER TEAM IS GOING TO BE USED, IT ISN'T THE SOCCER TEAM'S FAULT, IT IS THE USER'S FAULT....IT IS JUST LIKE BUSH AND CHANEY TRYING TO SHOW SCENES FROM 9/11 ON THEIR CAMPAIGN ADS - EXPLOITATION
IT IS JUST LIKE THE A. LINCOLN "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" EXPLOITATION, IT IS JUST LIKE THE THANKSGIVING TURKEY IN IRAQ EXPLOITATION, THAT IS WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION DOES. GET IT???? DON'T BLAME THE "VICTIMS", THERE MAY BE "GUNS" TO THEIR HEADS, SO TO SPEAK.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

161. as a current player and fan

I completely agree with you. The people who are saying that this doesn't mean anything have obviously never sat on the edge of their seat for 90 minutes, eagerly cheering their team on to victory.

P.S. Go, Manchester United!!

[enki23]

73. did these people play soccer under saddam?

or are they new?

[theboss]

78. There was a national team under Saddam

I assume most of the players are holdovers. I can't believe that they would be able to field an entirely new team that could compete at an international level in 18 months.

[louis c]

82. They can

if they have highly skilled coaches and trainers in expensive facilities inside the safe confines of Bush's ally, Jordan.

All this while Americans are dying for Bush's mistake in Iraq.

But think of the photo op just before the convention.

even the DUers are falling for this shit.

[BlueCollar]

85. and when

one of them is interviewed and says he wants the Americans to leave?

[Snow]

87. Okay, I see your point, although I don't agree with most of it.

The part that I understand is that bush is using this as a bit of propaganda to show that we've turned the corner, that Iraq is back to normal.

The response to that is obvious: "The proud people of Iraq have sent their athletes to the games despite the oppression of the occupation by the Halliburton forces, just as they did even under the dark days of the saddam dictatorship. This speaks to the spirit of the people that will stand defiantly even under the heel of a bush or cheney."

The point to make here is that the bushites have not changed a situation; it is in fact an effort for Iraq to do this under the current regime but it is not something they were unable to do in years past.

[theboss]

90. Okay...now it is official...

You are just making stuff up to stir up shit.

You can't pluck twenty Iraqis off the street, run them through some drills, and have them beat Portugal.

[louis c]

100. especially if you pay off

the Portuguese

[stlchic]

92. Let's send 'em a note...

"Hey guys, could you do us US Dems a favor and go back to the terrorist infested crater that * has created for you so he won't get a good photo op? Thanks!"


:crazy:

[enki23]

86. that's what i'm thinking is almost certain

this, most likely, is the mostly the same soccer team that existed under saddam. oddly enough, though, they aren't really reporting that. we need, for our nationalist self esteem, to pretend they were all cringing in their basements before we liberated them to their new, happy condition.

[theboss]

89. Real Sports on HBO has done two stories on this team

The first last year was on what a pack of bastards Uday and his friends were. The second was on their qualifying for the World Cup.

It's mostly the same team from what I can tell.

[K-W]

88. No one should be obligated to fight this war, no American, no Iraqi's

The Iraqi's didnt choose this war. This is a foolish point, nobody should be dying over there and making it Iraqi's dying rather than Americans (though of course plenty of both are) it wouldnt make it one bit better.

[louis c]

91. by the way

I'm going to bed now. I'm not leaving because it's "convenient".

Tomorrow in the AM I have two grievance hearings for my members. I must prepare, then rest.

In the mean time, thanks for the spirited discussion.

In closing, please remember, this is all about beating George Bush.

Good night, I'll read your replies in the morning (8 AM)

P.S. Let's carry Ohio and Florida.

[TeacherCreature]

98. OIC, it is all about ABB? This is the worst Kerry enforcers POV

I have seen yet. Even this group of soccer players who have played all their life should be denyed the right to play at the olympics because they might help bush win. What a lot of shit.

[louis c]

102. A Bush Win

lengthens the War in Iraq and the Agony at home.

Anything that helps Bush win is wrong, in the long run.

[NickB79]

93. Gee, what a tough choice

Let 20 men play soccer and entertain the world, or let them go back to Iraq to fight. How can you be so sure what side they would choose to fight on?

Never mind the fact that many of them have probably lost loved ones to the US attacks, right? Sending them back might be sending back 20 new resistance fighters who will then attack and kill more Americans, not fight alongside them. Have you considered that possibility?

[0007]

99. You'd think think these soccer stars of Iraq would be fighting for their

country instead of playing a game of entertainment.

Piss on 'em!!

[louis c]

101. The voice of reason

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

128. they ARE "fighting" for Iraq

Fighting doesn't have to include blowing things up.
Dear friends, for much of the world, soccer is tremendously important...a source of national pride and not simply "entertainment". And when I saw those brilliant players celebrating at the end of the game, and the Iraqi fans in the stands, and saw the sheer joy on their faces, I imagined all of war-torn Iraq jumping to their feet and cheering along with them. Can you concede that bringing such a moment of pride and happiness to a war-torn country is a GOOD thing??

P.S. Your "piss on them" comment was EXTREMELY rude and uncalled for. :mad:

[louis c]

130. Ya, It's Good for

Bush and his dictator friend Allawi.

The Right Wing will be using this scam to their own benefit.

You mark my words, you'll be crying at how you were fooled by this trick that can only convince a gullible fool

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

154. quit being so damn cynical

Do you actually think that someone who is against the war would all of a sudden vote for Bush based on the outcome of a soccer match?!?!?! I see what you're getting at, that the Bushies would be all like "oh, see how well we've rebuilt Iraq," but Bush probably doesn't even follow soccer.

And what makes you think it's a "scam" and a "trick"?? Did you even see the game? I did and I can tell you, the Iraqis were just plain better players than the Portuguese team. And I know soccer, I've been playing for pretty much my whole life.

By the way, mark MY words that I am not a "gullible fool". The match was fair.

[louis c]

165. What makes me think it's a scam or a trick

try following all of Bush and Rove's bull shit over the years.

I don't trust anything they're connected to.

Every time I'm cynical of George Bush's motives, I've been proved correct.

You want to trust them, be my guest.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

172. I DON'T trust the Bushies!

I hate the Bush Administration with every fiber of my being! But they had nothing to do with this!!! Bush did not set up this team! Bush did not get this team into the Olympics! Bush did not score those four goals!! Your conspiracy theory is utterly ridiculous. I dare you to find one piece of hard, solid evidence that this is a scam. Go on. I dare you.

Until then...
GO IRAQ!!! GO FOR THE GOLD!!!

[allemand]

106. Pottery Barn rule

"You break it, you own it."

[Snow]

107. A take on the game from Salon,

the sports pages thereof:

http://www.salon.com/news/sports/col/kaufman/2004/08/13/friday/index.html

-snip-
This is what the Olympics can bring us. Moments of staggering surprise and joy -- and, on the losing side, devastation, though in this case Portugal is still in the tournament. The feelings of Iraqis following their team's win are the feelings the TV networks are trying to manufacture in all of us with their endless up-close features about athletes who have overcome often vastly overstated obstacles.

Cynics and critics of the Olympics dislike the nationalism the Games foster, the medal counts and flag waving. But a little nationalism can be just the thing in the right situation. It's hard to picture any result being a cathartic experience for anyone, a fond memory they'll take to the grave, if the names of all the world's athletes were thrown into a hat and the teams created alphabetically.

Whatever happens next, for a few hours the happiest people on earth were almost certainly all Iraqi. When's the last time that might have been true? Remember this the next time someone's going on about how trivial sports are, how ridiculous it is for people to pay so much attention to a bunch of kids games.
-snip-

[louis c]

108. George Bush is making a political point.

Hitler did the same thing in Munich in 1932.

Use the Olympics to make a political point in favor of illegal wars, torture and murder.

I won't fall for this shit.

[Snow]

112. Louis, it sounds as if you wish only to state your opinion

and not listen to anyone else's. I could be wrong here, but I don't think I've seen anyplace on this thread where you've conceded that perhaps someone made a point worth considering that differed from your own original statement. While I'm relieved you're on the democratic, liberal, etc side of things, I'm worried that you seem unwilling to hear other well-presented viewpoints. It should worry you as well.

[louis c]

116. I have read everyone of them

but I reserve the right to disagree.

If you think I am bad here, you should see me when I defend one of my members at a grievance hearing.

That's my personality, never give an inch. That's why my idol is James Carville, the ragin' cagin.

This is just discussion, no one will get hurt.

Certainly I have to "listen". After all, it's the written word, so it's pretty hard to interrupt.

Let's just work to defeat Bush, give them no quarter, and carry Ohio and Florida.

[Snow]

118. Didn't say you hadn't read them; that wasn't my point.

But I enjoy an exchange of ideas. So I start getting professorial when I see someone not taking advantage of what seem to me to be numerous learning opportunities. That's your choice, of course, but you're missing out, my friend.

[lolly]

114. I'll jump in here late

And agree with the original poster . . . for the most part.

The soccer players are being used, but they're getting a good deal too.

Neo-cons get to hold them up as an example of what freedom-loving people can do, once resolute Merikans have liberated them. Never mind that it's all a facade, that we're tearing apart their country, stealing their oil, and getting our soldiers and their civilians slaughtered.

They get to escape all this mayhem and slaughter, and in exchange for escaping it, they help neocons perpetuate the Big Lie that hides all the destruction. Looky, here, Americans. There is hope! We liberated Iraq and now they have a winning soccer team (wipe tear from eye, hold hand over heart.)

[Art_from_Ark]

193. The '32 Games were in Los Angeles

The '72 Games were in Munich

The '36 Games were in Berlin.

And yeah, Hitler tried to use the Berlin Games as a showcase for his "Master Race"-- but Jesse Owens threw a wrench in that plan. About the only ones who fell for the propaganda were some Germans, and later some loony Austrians.

But what does this have to with the Iraqi soccer team?

[Vladimir]

158. I would argue the premise

certainly a bit of nationalism can be useful in certain circumstances, but I dispute the fact that this is a victory for the Iraqi people or that indeed they care. The Iraqi people are engaged in a struggle for survival and a struggle of liberation and I would be genuinely shocked if the majority of Iraqis saw this team as representing them.

[louis c]

201. It's a victory for Allawi and Bush

[fob]

113. Here's my post from Tuesday 8/10/04 - I hope it doesnt' turn into

an "I told you so" moment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2187357

[lolly]

115. Read Your Thread

I have to agree with you, too. AWOL will milk everything he can out of this soccer team.

Our soldiers are dying--AWOL gets a photo op. Yippee!

[Dorian Gray]

120. I don't know....

We are also sending our own men and women to the Olympics. I don't see why it is unfair that the Iraqis are going. Especially since it establishes the difference between their Olympic team now and the Olympic team when Uday was in charge.

[louis c]

129. Americans are fighting in Iraq

and the Iraqi Olympic Team can help Bush cut a campaign commercial.

[robcon]

121. I think it's a wonderful story.

We should all feel good about the Iraqi soccer team.

[louis c]

131. and Vote for Bush

who freed them from that tyrant, Saddam, with our young Americans so Cheney can get rich.

See, if DUers will fall for this shit, imagine how the average American will gulp it up like ice cream.

[Dorian Gray]

162. Oh, please....

only your paranoid nature seems to think that people will thank Bush for this.

They are human beings. If they want to play soccer, they should play soccer. The thing now is that they are not forced to win or play. They can bow out if they like.

And maybe their win will help bring back some national pride to Iraq that may be sorely missing right now. Who are you to deprive them?

Oh, I'm sorry! I'm buying into Bush's hands right now by being happy for the Iraqi team! ::rolls eyes::

[louis c]

185. National Pride

get it.

Allawi's government. National pride. Now you understand.

National Pride at the Olympic achievement of the newly liberated Iraq, the nation which overthrew the evil dictator, Saddam, with the help and courage of our great leader, George Walker Bush.

Long Live Prime Minister Allawi, and the Great White Liberator from the New World, Mr. Bush.

Bush is great, Long Live the Great Liberator.

Now you got it, National Pride. I missed that angle. You've made me see the light. Iraqi National Pride Sponsored today by the great Texas Liberator.

Eat up that shit, it will make you big and strong.

[HFishbine]

122. Your gripe should be

that we have Americans fighting while Americans play soccer. I'm glad for the Iraqi team.

[louis c]

132. It's a political ploy that

only a gullible fool would swallow.

Bush has already cut a political commercial telling Americans exactly what you just said.

Now, can you understand how people get fooled?

[HFishbine]

151. LOL!

Okay, so Iraq shouldn't participate in the Olympics because to so so would just be a political ploy? Geez. Maybe Bush will try to make political hay out of it, but the participation of Iraqi atheletes in and of itself is not a political ploy.

Look, I don't have to object to anything and everything that may be a sliver of good under the Bush administration. That kind of myopic thinking is just what I'm voting against.

[louis c]

186. I Just Refuse to be Manipulated, even once

by these assholes.

If you choose to, go ahead.

But I'm voting against Bush because everything he stands for should be looked at through a skeptical eye.

They play on our emotions, and this is emotional.

My gut instinct tells me to watch out, and if you don't trust Bushco. your's should too.

[Sloppyfourths]

123. It doesn't bother me

As long as ALL the young Iraqi men and women aren't out there playing soccer.

[louis c]

133. ya, just enough to help Bush

get re-elected

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

124. That was the coolest game I've ever seen

Why is everyone being so cynical?? That was one hell of a game!! Those Iraqis really impressed me, with their skill, strategy, and above all passion. Those guys were really putting their hearts into the game.
People, I realize that Americans in general don't give a rats ass about soccer, but for most of the world, it is nearly an obsession, and a big victory such as this is a source of great national pride. Poor Iraq needs SOMETHING good to happen to them...why not a tremendous soccer team? After all, in the '60s, the great Pele gave impoverished Brazil something to be proud of. Why not Iraq too?

:toast:

[louis c]

134. Glad you enjoyed it, now repeat after me

Four more years, four more years, four more years.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

153. What are you talking about?

This has nothing to do with a stupid American presidential campaign! This is about the PEOPLE of Iraq!!! :mad:

[Wednesdays]

127. Who's paying for the Iraqi team to be there?

Follow the money.

[louis c]

136. Look at your payroll deduction under Fed. Tax

it probably is part of the 87 billion that Bush bashes Kerry for.

But as long as all you DUers enjoyed the game, it must be OK.

[cerulean_ink]

139. Put aside your contempt for Bush for one second...

After reading this thread, I'm left with a few observations. Up until this point, you have completely disregarded many points contrary to your own and replied with arrogant sarcasm to the others. I wonder, is that truely how James Carville argues?

That point aside, I think from reading that most people replying to this post realize that this will probably be used as an election-year ploy by Bush*. What most of them also realize is that it can serve another purpose, which you seem to be missing in your blind hatred and contempt for the current administration. The Iraqi soccer team can bring together an entire nation in unity for one game, two games, three, who cares. Unity. If, by sending the team to the Olympics, and bearing another putrid Bush* photo op, that is the ONLY thing we gain from this, I say we owe it to the Iraqi people for all the bullshit we've put them through.

[louis c]

141. Wait till all the truth comes out

Remember the babies that were pulled from the incubators in Kuwait during Gulf War I.

That turned out to be bull shit. I believe that this scum in the Bush Administration, starting with Karl Rove, could have scammed this whole thing in an effort to use the timing.

These are the same people who gave us Abu Ghreib, WMD, Saddam connections to al Qiada, etc., etc., etc.

I don't believe a F**king thing that is filtered through them. When it becomes obvious that I'm supposed to have an emotional reaction that favors them, I look at their track record, and come to the conclusion that they can kiss my ass.

You can trust them if you want, but I smell a rat.

[louis c]

148. by the way

I won't, for a moment put aside my contempt for the Bush Administration until Nov. 3, 2004.

The way it sounds here, I may have to wait even 4 more years from then.

Maybe all you naive, well intentioned dupes should start a little club, "DUers who believe Karl Rove's Bull Shit".

[fishwax]

140. Every picture tells TWO stories

Of course Bush will use it as a propaganda piece, but that doesn't mean we can't use it to get our message out as well. Contrast the success of the "Iraqi olympic committee" with the failure of the bush occupation/transition/etc. Point out that the reason the win is such a huge deal in the first place is because the country has been plunged into total disarray by an illegal on behalf of Bushco. While you're at it, you might mention that "it sure is disgusting that Bush is so eager to use the one positive event in recent Iraqi history as an excuse to toot his own horn, while at the same time the real situation apparently hasn't improved a whit, since more of our boys (and theirs) die every day and every week.

Sure it provides great PR fodder for Bushco. But so was a convention in NYC on the eve of the 9/11 anniversary, until our side started pushing the point that shrub was just exploiting tragedy for political gain.

We can do the same thing with the soccer match. People are going to be talking about it, because it is a natural human interest story. And we can either let shrub claim it as his own or we can use it as a segue to approach our own talking points. I've talked about the Iraq win plenty today, but I think the conversation has been framed (by myself and by others) in a way that points out the difference b/w soccer show biz and cold reality. Along the lines of: It's great that the Iraqi people have something to get excited about, because this administration sure has screwed things up over there, and it doesn't seem to be getting any better.

Every picture tells a million stories, and Bush will use this picture to tell a fairy-tale. Rather than complaining about the people in the picture, I'll spend my time telling the real story.

[louis c]

142. The only spin that will work with these people is

American men and women are dying in Iraq so that grown Iraqi men can play soccer instead of fighting for their own country.

You want to stick it up Karl Rove's ass, that's the message, plain and simple.

[robcon]

150. The only message for the Iraq soccer team is...

congratulations on a great victory over a strong team.

[louis c]

164. and please smile

for the President's photo op.

What shit.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

159. well, would you rather

have these brilliant footballers "fighting for their country" and killing more American soldiers, then being killed themselves by other American soldiers, and perpetuating the endless cycle of death and violence?

[Violet_Crumble]

169. You haven't once mentioned that Iraqi men and women are dying...

Yet you've mentioned incessantly that Americans are dying. Why? Is it only American deaths that bother you?

Instead of attacking Iraqi athletes, maybe you should spend more time placing blame where it's due - on the US administration...

Violet...

[IronLionZion]

147. I think its great that they have a soccer team

we have one too. Most countries do.


You could say the same thing about our athletes -- they should fight Bush or something instead of playing ball.

This soccer team will probably bring hope and happiness and other good stuff to the Iraqi people. Do you want to deny them that just because our president is an asshole?

Call me a traitor, but I was glad to see countries like Iran and Croatia in the last men's World Cup. Soccer is truly a global sport since everybody plays it. It has a way of bringing people together (except maybe in Europe!)

[louis c]

149. I'm so glad that the Iraqi people

can celebrate a soccer victory by Iraqi men who support the Iraqi government while Americans who don't support the war are forced to fight in Iraq.

Sounds fair to me. Maybe they had to play soccer while they support the illegal, puppet government's war, after all, they can't join the Texas Air National Guard.

[robcon]

152. I think you've spun yourself into the ground, louis c.

There's nothing wrong with celebrating/congratuating the Iraqi national team for a stirring victory. There's no need of political spin. It's just sports.

[louis c]

167. Then why is Bush

using this Olympic bullshit in an already produced political TV spot on this "fell good" story.

Already his allies in the press are referring to the Iraqi team as the "Miracle on Turf".

How can you fall for this shit. You can smell it a mile away.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

175. You're bloody paranoid

And that team IS a "miracle on turf". I don't care who said that exact phrase, it's true. I don't care if BUSH said it, it would be the one true thing he's ever said.
You must have lots more amusing conspiracy theories. Care to share any? We'd all get a laugh.

[louis c]

176. He's Got You

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

178. Did you just accuse me...

of being a Bush supporter? Trust me, nothing could be further from the truth. (I'm a socialist!!!) I'm just not a closed-minded reactionary paranoiac!

[louis c]

182. Not a supporter

just an enabler

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

194. How the hell does being a fan of the Iraqi team

make me a Bush enabler? Oh right--I forgot, it's all a huge conspiracy. I think I finally understand your logic: the Iraqi soccer team are Iraqis, so to support them obviously means you support the war in Iraq, which obviously means that Bush and Rove have set up this team to make themselves look good. Oh, and they paid Portugal and Costa Rica to lose.
Does anyone else see all these ridiculous lapses in logic??

By the way, congrats to Iraq on another victory, 2-0 against Costa Rica!!

[louis c]

197. Oh yeah,

none of that's possible.

Maybe the Iraqi soccer team is using this to avoid the conflict.

after all, they can't get into the Texas Air National Guard.

[louis c]

174. Munich 1932

Just Sports

Sieg Hiel

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

179. Do you mean Berlin 1936?

Or Munich 1972?? By your "sieg heil" I assume you mean the "Nazi Games", and those were Berlin 1936.

[louis c]

181. I stand corrected

about the date. Berlin 1936.

My history is off, but the point's not.

[Violet_Crumble]

170. So simplistic...

All Iraqi athletes = supporters of Iraqi puppet government....

All US troops = people who oppose the war....

I've been trying to get into yr head through yr posts to see where yr coming from, but to me, as an Australian who opposed the invasion from the start and despises Bushco with a vengeance, all that's coming across to me is mean and dispirited whining blaming Iraqi athletes for what's happening in Iraq, and poorly attempting to justify a belief that the Iraqi people aren't allowed to have a sense of national pride in their athletes, who represent the Iraqi people and not the govt of Iraq....

edit: I've got a great idea, though. Hows about we get the IOC to kick the US out of the Olympics for its invasion of Iraq. That'd mean a whole swag more of medals for Australia! ;)

Violet...

[louis c]

173. Let's see if I can put it in focus for you

First of all, I don't believe the torture stories about the soccer athletes under Sadam for losing a game. I believe that's bullshit. It reminds me of the story about the Iraqi soldiers taking babies out of the incubators in Kuwait that later was founfd out to be a bogus story.

Next, the entire "feel good" soccer story has had Karl Rove's finger prints on it for over a year. Karl Rove knows how to read a calender. These guys go to the Olympics, they retell the torture story, and impress the US public with how wonderful it is in Iraq now that Bushco. intervened.

Remember, these are the same guy (Bush&co.) that haven't told us the truth once about anything in Iraq. Now, watch this point. I'm not saying that they have lied numoruos times, or frequently. I'm saying that they haven't told the truth F**king once about this misadventure.

So, I don't think they are starting to tell the truth now. The story is too convinient for them to just be a coincidence.

Finally, for this not to work for them, only one argument will make this backfire before the convention and the election with the Americans (not me) who think this war is just.

Why should young American men and women fight and die for Iraq when able bodied Iraqi men are playing soccer all year round at the American taxpayers' expence?

Now, I hope you get it. Either they will spin it, or we will.

We can all give our nice niave cuddily isn't this so nice spin that coincides with Bush's or we can use it against them. My choice is I don't trust them, I don't like them, and I don't believe them.

I hope you understand my position now.

[Karenina]

171. Where's that DSM V

when you need it? :crazy:

[ChipperbackDemocrat]

180. Lay off those Iraqi kids

Those kids put the work in to get this chance, through a lot of stuff, too. Regardless of how you feel for the war or whatever, those 20 players got a chance of a lifetime and I was rooting for them.

But as we enjoy the games, I lament because one crucial part of the ancient Olympics has been again forgotten. And its a tradition we need now more than ever.

During the ancient games, there was a truce among any warring city-states. It is a shame we don't keep that tradition going now.

[robcon]

183. It's great sports story.

David beats Goliath - that's always the best story in sports.

[louis c]

184. and Bush gets to use it

for Propaganda.

Thanks for giving him the biblical tip, maybe
Karl Rove can use it in the new Ad.

[Dorian Gray]

189. I think

I think that most of us get YOUR point. I think you are willfully ignoring our points, though. That, despite the propaganda that Bushco may use of this, it's actually an inspiring story. And you want to prevent a people from playing a sport that may make them enjoy their life a bit more than they already are. That's sad.... You would wish to prevent them from a little bit of enjoyment. I don't think even * would want to do that.

[louis c]

190. How About

the American Kids that can't play soccer because they lost their legs in this ridiculous war?

Once our troops come home, the F**king Iraqis can play soccer, kill each other again, have a peaceful Government, have a civil war, play bad mitten, or have sex with goats for I give a F**k.

In the mean time, no able bodied Iraqi man should be exempt from this conflict by playing soccer while Americans are dying in their country.

Bring home the troops, and I don't give a F**k what they do. Those American soldiers in Iraq our my neighbors' kids, and it sickens me to see them in harms' way, through no choice of their own, while these shit heads kick a ball around Greece and are hailed as some sort of heroes.

[Tosca]

192. Here's the solution!

The AMERICAN soccer team should pull out of the Games in protest and solidarity with their American brothers in Iraq!

[louis c]

199. We did it in 1980

and in 1968 there were protests against American foreign policy.

You may have tried to be sarcastic, but it has happened before.

[louis c]

200. Maybe the reason these Iraqi "Kids"

joined the soccer team is that they were rejected by the Texas Air National Guard.

You never can tell.

And if American soldiers who are in Iraq now end up coming home injured or disfigured, but oppose the war and end up being liberal democrats, those same assholes that are hailing the "soccer heroes of Iraq" can call our boys cowards.

Shades of Vietnam all over again, and DUers a falling for it.