My kid doesn't want to say the pledge of allegiance--Year Two

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

My daughter is in fourth grade. Today was the third day of school. Last year, in October, she decided saying the pledge every day was silly. Why? She said that when you just memorize something, without even knowing what it means, then stand up every day and rattle it off by rote, it doesn't have any significance. I am paraphrasing here, but that is the gist of how she felt.

Well, I sort of put her off about it. I knew her teacher was a big fundie Bushie and I didn't quite know how to deal with it, though I heartily agreed with her and was stunned by her argument (its logic!). She asked if her dad has to say the pledge every day. I said no. She said, "Well he's a veteran and he's a good American and if HE doesn't say it, why should I?" I couldn't really answer that, except to think in my head "well um for the purposes of indoctrination you have to say it!"

Anyway, she decided to ask the teacher if they could have some short civics lessons covering the meaning of the words in the pledge, the history of the pledge and a discussion as to why schoolchildren say it. The teacher said good idea, but we don't have time right now.

She asked about the civics lessons again two weeks later. Nope, the teacher said. Finally she got fed up with it and asked me why I wasn't supporting her on this. I agreed I should.

Texas state law, passed in June of 2003, states that every child in public school K-12 in TX shall say the pledge, the Texas state pledge, and then have one full minute of silence. If a parent writes a note, the child can be excused from saying the pledges. They simply sit quietly.

So I wrote it. And the teacher read it. Then yelled at my daughter to stand up and say it anyway. She's been taught to mind authority figures (to a point) so she stood up but was very conflicted since she knew I wrote the note and her teacher got it. She told us, we emailed the teacher, the teacher kept being ugly with her. It was all I could do to keep my husband from going up there and tearing her a new one. We contacted our local ACLU office, just in case.

Well, she finally relented and our daughter sat during the pledges the rest of the year.

She came home today and said, "I don't want to say the pledge. It's crazy--no one cares what it means, everyone just babbles it and rolls their eyes or just mouths the words. It doesn't mean anything to anyone." I asked her if she wanted me to write a note again. New teacher this year, never taught at this school before. Don't know if her teacher from last year has given her the 411 on our daughter yet. I asked my daughter if she was prepared to deal with any potential fallout, like last year. She said yes. I asked her again. She is sure.

So now we get to do this again. I wonder how I worded the note last year?

Any advice?

[WI_DEM]

1. your daughter is learning at an early age

that sometimes when you are principled that the masses may give her a hard time but she seems like a strong young lady and you should be proud...you did a great job bringing her up.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

4. Thanks

she's only nine so we aren't quite done with the bringing her up part yet, LOL! We're doing our best to make sure she is open minded.

I didn't even MENTION the gay debate that came up today in her class. One boy said "It's ok to be gay like 'happy' but it's not ok to be gay like you are a boy who likes boys." My daughter said, "Yes it IS ok. They're just GAY, no big deal. It's not like they have rabies or something." The boy argued that it was wrong and my daugther said there is no right or wrong to it, that there are simply gay people and straight people, so the boy went over to the teacher (who had heard none of this) and asked her if she thought it was ok to be gay. The teacher said, "No I don't think it's ok." The boy turned around real smug to my daughter, who dropped it at that point. When I asked her why she said "He wasn't worth it."

[wellstone dem]

10. When my daughter was 10

she came home and told me that I was wrong, the kids in school agreed being gay was bad. So I asked her "how can love between two people of the same sex be wrong as long as people didn't hurt each other and helped each other be good folks?" She paused and said, "The kids in school were wrong."

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

13. Good for your daughter!

[wildeyed]

2. Far out.

Smart kid to know her own mind at such an early age. I have no advice, my kids are still too little for school, but good luck with it.

BTW, what happened to the teacher last year? Was she dicplined?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

3. No she wasn't.

But she learned not to talk politics or social issues with our daughter. She was more well-informed on those things than her teacher. (She's been reading the headlines from the paper to me out loud since she was six. Then she frequently asks about it. And we watch BBC World News every day together and I explain things she doesn't understand, but only age-appropriately--no need to go into things that would just give her nightmares!).

Anyway, we were a breath away from involving an outside party when the principal told her, nicely, that sometimes it's best NOT to make a big deal out of things.

See, she kept making a BIG stinking deal out of the kids possibly noticing that one kid was sitting down and because of the teacher making a big deal out of it, the other kids DID notice, so then it WAS a big deal!! Self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Warren DeMontague]

5. I was in elementary school in the midwest in the 70s...

And I knew by age 7 that I was an Atheist. Of course, I also learned pretty quickly that I couldn't advertise that fact without certain older kids feeling the need to kick the crap out of me. I always felt that there was no reason why I should be forced to say "One Nation Under God" every day. I found it offensive back then, when no one else was seemingly giving it a second thought. I mumbled that line for the better part of a decade, I suspect. "Under Bob".."Munger Froxx" "Tongue my crotch" (once I got a little older)... Whatever.

Anyway, if your kid has already borne the brunt of publicly sitting the thing out for one year, she can probably handle it again.. I would write a preliminary note just saying "I excuse my daughter... etc." No reason or explantation needed. If they come back with any difficulties, then start referencing the state law, the Supreme Court decision (1943-West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette)establishing that no one can be coerced to say the pledge. Refer to the previous years experience, and, if you're feeling feisty, mention that you're in touch with the ACLU.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

7. Yep

I just reminded my husband we have a year of precedent now, so it shouldn't be as hard this year.

Funny thing is, my daughter's problem has never been with the "under God" part. That's MY problem with it. I think that should have NEVER been added. And I am no longer in the classroom, but when I was teaching, I never said the under God part. Just shut my mouth for those two words. Not ONLY does it violate the establishment clause, but as a Christian, I feel strongly against public displays of (false) piousness.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. Yeah, it's tacked on and unneccessary.

And many, many thinking religious people (the rev. barry lynn springs to mind) are just as wary of mingling church and state as are we unbelievers. Not just for the state's sake, but for the Church's, as well.

Frankly, I'm not so sure why we need two minutes a day to have kids blindly pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth. It seems very antiquated and un-democratic. How about taking that time to teach them the underlying principles of fairness, freedom, equality, and justice that the piece of cloth is supposed to represent? I'd wager that would incur a great deal more genuine allegiance than the rote repetition of a coerced (whether overtly or not) "Pledge".

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

14. That's EXACTLY how my daugher feels

she wishes the teachers would open up a discussion about what the pledge really MEANS. Kindergartners have NO clue what the word "allegiance" means and many older kids don't, either.

[Blue Gardener]

6. What a great kid!

She is an inspiration.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

8. thanks!

I swear the only kind of kid to raise is a thinking kid. It's a bit more trouble, because they question things (and YOU) a lot, and you need a lot of patience for it, but I think it is SO worth it.

[gratuitous]

9. Suggested text for your note

Pursuant to {insert citation to Texas law here}, {Name of daughter} is excused from saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

Please note that I have discussed this issue and this note with my nine-year-old. If you {the teacher, school administrator, nosy busybody} would like to discuss this matter with my daughter further, please notify me in advance, so that I may be present. Thank you very much.

Signed,
Moonbeam Starlight

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

15. Oooo

are you an attorney? Great text, I will use it!! Thanks!

[gratuitous]

19. No, but I work in a law office

Citing the relevant statute tips the school off (without being confrontational) that you're aware of the law that allows your daughter to opt out of saying the pledge. The request that they notify you before discussing the issue with your daughter also short circuits the excuse "Well, it was just a little chat we had with your daughter; we didn't think you'd want to be bothered."

Good luck to you both.

[Blue Gardener]

77. Nosy Busybody

Good one!

[Tight_rope]

12. After you right the letter...remember to keep a copy for next year &

the year after that and the year after that and the year after that and so on. I admire your daughter she's a young lady with a great mind of her own.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

16. Thanks

I saved it to the hard drive, LOL! I have a feeling I'll need it every year.

Funny thing is, last year, she would occasionally feel moved to pledge some mornings. That didn't null out my note, but she said it was nice because she could pledge when she really "felt it."

[amazona]

17. wow, good for her

I had to get to high school before I realized I didn't even know the words to the pledge and to the Nicene (spelling?) Creed. They were just words I pretended to mumble with the crowd.

[greekspeak]

18. I applaud you on raising a child to think

Whatever you are doing to educate your daughter, you are doing it VERY WELL! That a child of that age can appeal so well to logic is amazing. Not only is she intellegent, she is RIGHT. The pledge is just something schoolkids rattle off because they have been indoctrinated to do it. I could not tell you how old I was before I was taught what the pledge really meant, but I was forced to say it. When I was a very small child, I guess in first or second grade, I had a freind in my class that did not say the pledge because of religious differences. So I decided I should not have to say it. My parents, of course, were called about this travesty. Again, I think this would have been before they taught us what the pledge meant.

That teacher needs to get down off her high Shrub horse and follow the f-ing rules. I hope your daughter's keen intellect is not wasted in another crappy teacher's class.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

28. Keen intellect, LOL, thanks

Somehow the term keen intellect when applied to a nine year old makes me giggle, but thank you.

The poor kid hears too many radical conversations at home, that's the problem.

Thus her debate today, on the third day of school, with another kid about homosexuality. One of the first things she said when she told me was "HE brought it up first!!!" LOL.

I never thought about it, either, that things we say by rote memorization don't mean as much, but when she told me it sunk in.

Sometimes kids just see things more clearly than adults do.

Oh and her teacher was afraid of what happened in your case: that other kids would decide to sit down and not say it, either. It didn't happen, but at recess, they would ask her how she "got out of it" and she said "just get your mom to write a note!" A few of them asked their parents and were refused.

[Sloppyfourths]

20. I don't like to see a child that young dragged into this stuff

[noiretextatique]

21. a child that young can actually think and make her own decisions

obviously. some adults should try it.

[Sloppyfourths]

51. Sorry, she is way too young for that kind of stuff IMO

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

72. Well

it's a good thing she isn't your kid, then isn't it?

She is almost 10 and is VERY bright and mature. Definitely not too young to form her own opinions about things.

[fudge stripe cookays]

23. She wasn't dragged into anything.

Moonbeam's daughter is very intelligent and determined. She asked her mother to help her do this.

Dragging a kid into something is something parents do against a kid's will. This is definitely not that.

[Sloppyfourths]

52. I think you are wrong, here's why...

Ever see pictures of kids wearing the hoods of the KKK? They are enthusiastic about it too.

Too young IMO.

Can't we leave the pre-teens out of this?

[prodigal_green]

63. I stopped saying the pledge when I was about that age

I stood up but wouldn't put my hand over my heart or say it. I just decided that. The teacher asked me, I said wouldn't plegde my allegience to anybody but my family, friends and God. I grew up in a fairly liberal place and that was the end of it. I don't even think I mentioned it to my Mom until years later. I wasn't dragged into anything and it sounds like her kid made her own decision. Good for her.

I guess your parenting would encourage a kid to buckle to peer pressure whenever she meets the slightest resistance.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

24. You might want to reconsider your wording

and re-read my original post with a bit more attention paid to such things as the fact that I actually put her OFF about it for over a month. I finally wrote the note only after she convinced me she felt strongly about it, her argument was sound, and she was aware of possible fallout.

How in the world could that be considered dragging her into this? You don't know this child. She most definitely has a mind of her own, and don't her teachers and parents know it.

[Sloppyfourths]

53. You might want to reconsider your parenting

I say she's too young to be dragged into it. How does her saying the pledge harm her in any way?

Can't we let the pre-teens be kids for awhile?

I doubt VERY much she came up with the idea on her own.

[fudge stripe cookays]

66. As a good friend of Moonbeam...

I find your posts insulting. She's a helluva parent, and just happens to be raising a smart, independent, very opinionated little girl.

She told us the original story several months ago in person, and I was amazed that a little girl that age knew enough about what was going on to make up her own mind.

Comparing this to indoctrinating kids into the KKK is disgusting. If our kids are taking an interest now, it could protect them against the onslaught of hatred and false morality that is taking over this country.

I WISH my parents had been this cool when I was younger. I might have taken an interest in politics far earlier.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

74. Thank you for that post

fudge stripe. YOU are a cool person, too!

And for what it's worth, I was raised by parents who actively discouraged me from thinking for myself. It took me YEARS to get over that!

LOL!

[fudge stripe cookays]

75. Thanks sweetie.

I was also raised the same way.

My mother passively tried to turn me into a racist, as did most of her side of the family. It makes me angry, still.

Anyone who raises an open-minded daughter who questions authority has my utmost respect!

I hope you guys can still make the H party! She'll be a delight to have there!

FSC

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

78. Count on it!!!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

69. Again

you refuse to explain how she is being "dragged into it." We didn't have a single discussion about the pledge in this house before she brought it up.

How is she not being a kid? I'd like you to tell her right now she isn't being a kid, while she's lawn surfing on some cardboard outside on a beautiful day with some friends.

She's VERY much a kid, enjoys her life greatly, and happens to be in the process of being raised by parents who let her think for herself and who guide her in that process. She made a good argument. I have to give her props for that. And she asked me for my support.

You asked: "How does her saying the pledge harm her in any way?"
And I'd turn that question around to you: how does NOT saying the pledge harm her? I said elsewhere on this thread that last year she was NEVER made fun of, in fact the other kids wanted to know how THEY could do that, LOL! So tell me, how does it harm her, exactly, to NOT say it?

You doubt she came up with the idea on her own? You've never known a kid who came up with their own ideas? If you have kids, I feel sorry for them, as I doubt VERY much they are allowed to think for themselves. Even if they did, I doubt VERY much you would ever support them in that.

I think you are just a conservative and it burns you up to think of a kid thinking for themselves. A kid doing their own thinking doesn't tend to grow up and vote Republican.

[Barret]

26. I agree

yet apparently the state thinks otherwise.

I find it amusing having grade schoolers make a pledge every day in which they don't even know what it means.

A 10 year old can not (technically) enter in to a contract to buy a candy bar, yet they can pledge their life to the state, under a "god". Interesting.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

27. Great points.

I'll have to remember what you said, I've never quite heard it put that way, though I've felt that way about it after listening to my daughter talk about how she feels about it.

[Sloppyfourths]

54. You do not understand the pledge

It is a pledge of allegience to the creation of a more perfect union. It is a hopeful pledge.

In China and the old Soviet Union they pledged alliegence to the state.

[DrWeird]

55. Apparently neither do you.

The Pledge pledges allegiance to the Republic, ie the state, the part about liberty and justice for all sort of makes rules about forcing children to recite it are rather hypocritical.

[Sloppyfourths]

58. Wrong

It is about liberty and justice for all. It is about love for your country that tries to achieve that, and when it fails, it keeps trying.

[DrWeird]

59. liberty and justice for all...

apply whether a person loves the country or not. Phony loyalty oaths or not.

If our founding fathers knew we'd force children to swear loyalty oaths (like, as you say, in China and the old Soviet Union) they'd be rolling over in their graves.

[noiretextatique]

22. tell your daughter she's one brave girl

for standing up for her beliefs. i grew up in california, when the pledge was required in class, and i thought it was dumb too. i didn't have enough nerve to stop standing, but i did stop mouthing the words :D
please tell your daughter she has a fan in california.
as to the note, it seems like the last one you wrote did the trick, so why not just repeat it? perhaps you should check with the aclu first.
good luck...and thanks for sharing your story.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

25. Thank you very much for that.

I am very curious to see how she turns out. Two things were very important to me when I had her: 1. that she, above all else, have true compassion for other humans and all living creatures....without that, we are lost and 2. that she learn to think for herself and speak assertively for herself, something I wasn't taught as a kid, I had to learn it as an adult.

Thanks!

[TexasSissy]

29. Just wondering: Did YOU have a discussion with her on the meaning

of the Pledge of Allegiance? If not, I am wondering if you weren't inadvertently encouraging her to "protest." I am wondering why your family felt it should be left to the teacher alone to explain the meaning of it. Yes, it was the teacher asking her to say it (instructing her, actually). But still, explanations should also come from parents.

She certainly has a right not to say it, if you write her a note. And she is right to question the meaning of things, and to question why she must or must not do certain things. It is good for children to question.

But she is still a child. What you and your husband choose to do is not necessarily what she, a child, should choose to do. I'm sure you can think of a few things that you and your husband do that you wouldn't want your 10 year old to do. So I am wondering: When she said she didn't have to say the Pledge because your husband didn't, did you explain to her that her father is an adult, and so his choices at his stage of life are not necessarily the choices that a 10 year old should make? Maybe they are....but not always. She should know this, IMO.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying she SHOULD say the Pledge against her will. I am just wondering if you and your husband gave her a "fair and balanced" view of all aspects of the situation, to enable her to make a fully informed decision. She has, after all, only lived 10 years. I have dresses older than that. She does not have the life experiences to draw on to make the decisions that an adult does.

On the other hand, maybe just a simple "Chill out, kid" would help. I mean, should a 10 year old be spending that much energy and concern on the recitation of a pledge to her country? I mean, there are so many more big problems in the world generally and in her world, it would seem. And of course the main thing is that she grow up to be a healthy, well-adjusted adult who doesn't get upset over every little thing. (I say that as someone who DOES....and it is not a good thing. Best book I bought: Don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff. Wish I could actually live that way.)

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

30. Well you seem to be sweating some small stuff here

because YES we had a long discussion about the meaning of and history of the pledge. I am a teacher myself, so that came quite naturally. We even did some research on the internet and we both ended up reading the entire state law that passed in June of 2003. I'd say she knows a hell of a lot more about the pledges than most of her peers.

Actually questioning things IS a big deal and I am glad she is the type of kid to look at things other people do without thought and ask, "Why?" That is called critical thinking and it is VERY important.

I'm not going to tell her "chill out kid." I listened to her and was amazed at how much she had thought it through. She admitted she had been thinking about why kids say the pledge since second grade (the year before).

Your comment about having dresses older than her makes me wonder if you have a kid. Kids are far more intelligent and capable than many of us adults give them credit for. If they are encouraged to think for themselves, given appropriate guidance, and really listened to, they make a damn lot of sense.

Should she be spending that much energy and concern on a pledge? Well, um, she's NINE. It's not like she holds two jobs and is raising a family--she has LOADS of time and energy to devote to thinking about things. She doesn't watch a lot of TV, she's allowed plenty of down time (not being entertained) in which she daydreams, thinks. So how is it so awful that she had time and energy to really devote to thinking about it? On the one hand you say maybe she should chill out, then you say there are so many bigger things she could be worried about. That's pretty contradictory. And kids are capable of thinking about/working out more than one thing at once.

[Tsiyu]

41. Your Kid is Going to Be A Leader

It is a pity someone would question your parenting skills but your answer only reinforces what a good parent you truly are, and what a remarkable child you've raised.

Some folks have forgotten what it was like to be a child. Perhaps they were never taken seriously as children themselves. Whatever.

You and your daughter rock on. :yourock:

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

42. Wow thanks

I honestly don't think of myself as a great mom, I mean I don't think I SUCK, but it's hard to be objective about yourself and it was really nice to read that!

[salin]

64. I read the daughters questions to the teacher

NOT to be about the daughter wanting to know, but in direct response to her (the daughter) concern that everyone (the other students) were just mouthing words that meant nothing, and thus that the whole thing seemed pointless. I read this to be a pretty interesting solution from a child - if the concern is that it is meaningless - why not spend some time on the meaning - so that the rest of the year while kids say it - it means something to them.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

70. I agree

why not spend some time on the meaning? Unfortunately I can't MAKE the teacher do that and she chose not to.

At home, we did focus on the meaning and the history of the pledge.

[salin]

71. Insightful daughter

at quite a young age :thumbsup:

Many kids can articulate that they are bored... that they don't like something... but to have such a clear rationale, and to find within it a "principle" to hold onto.. that is pretty unique.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

73. Well

to be fair, she did think about it for almost a year before saying anything! But thanks!

[Endangered Specie]

31. Sounds like you got yourself a bright one there.

Critical thinking and questioning/skeptic skills are few and far between todays youth... Congrats!, I sure as hell wasn't like that at 10.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

32. Neither was I.

I can remember questioning SOME stuff, but only in my head, I never said it out loud. I was actively discouraged from thinking for myself growing up.

[napi21]

33. Her teacher should have explained why you say that pledge.

There really should be pride in your country, and that's one of the things a teacher should be explaining to these kids. It doesn't matter if you dislike or distrust the current leader.

I think the teacher failed here, and so did you. The words aren't hard to understand, and your daughter needs you to explain why it's an honor to pledge alliegence to your country.

[Barret]

34. You know

EVERY dictatorship forces individuals to pledge allegiance to them.

I can't think of many free nations that do. Yet considering the state of this nation it's not surprising you think a pledge of allegience is "pride". Bull shit.

At the point you have people mindlessly repeating it every day it changes from anything meaningful to a mindless chant.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

36. That was exactly my daughter's point

and that was something I had never thought of before.

She said when you just rattle something off every day, it loses its meaning, its significance. It's just something kids HAVE to do. She felt people should pledge allegiance to their country because they WANT to, not because they have to, and she certainly felt at the very least, the act of pledging allegiance should be taken seriously enough to at least have the meaning of it discussed in class.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

35. This has absolutely nothing to do with our current

"leader." (Boy I oughta post things like this more often, I think some outings are happening here...)

So the only way you can INSTILL pride in our country in a kid is by having them rattle off a pledge every single day?

Do you think a person can grow up to love their country without saying the pledge every day? Guess what? When I was growing up in a suburb of Dallas in the 70s and 80s, we didn't say the pledge past first grade. Gosh, I guess that ENTIRE generation of kids don't have any pride in their country.

Why don't YOU explain to ME why it's such an honor to pledge allegiance to our country? Do you say the pledge each day?

Did you miss my post to TexasSissy above where I told her how we talked about it, I explained the pledge, we looked up and read (together)the history of it, etc?

Don't make me whip out my veteran's wife card, I really hate to do that.

[Darth_Ole]

38. I'm a junior in high school.

And actually, at my school, you're in the minority to stand up and say the pledge! Although, most folks don't stand up just b/c they're lazy. It has nothing to do with civil disobedience.

I don't say it. I think making people say a pledge is something Saddam Hussein would do. Also, I'm an atheist and I won't say "One nation under God."

Good for your daughter, btw!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

39. Here in TX

it is state law that every kid K-12 HAS to stand up and say both the national and the state pledge (I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one and indivisible) unless a parent writes a note. An 18 year old can excuse themselves, I believe.

Funny thing about the law: teachers HAVE to recite it. And they can't write their own note to get out of it. No clause for that at all. Can't get their parents, too, either. And most of them are wanting to keep their job, so they don't say anything, but I knew teachers who didn't stand up and say it, ever.

[shanti]

37. what a bright and aware young lady!

she gets a big ^5! and kudos to the 'rents:)!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

40. high five back atcha!

[InkAddict]

43. Your daughter is a smart cookie

I too no longer will PLEDGE where it's not done with American Constitutional values taken into consideration. In 1985, as I see it, my right to "due process" was violated when an acused could not hear the charges nor send representation to hear them. Since then I've had a difficult, conflicted time standing for the passing flag, repeating the Pledge and/or singing the Star Spangled Banner.

For the first time in many years I repeated it at a Kerry rally in my town and the tears flowed. It's not that I don't appreciate our freedoms, but that they are dwindling daily and that has to change.

[UpsideDownFlag]

44. wow. when i was in the fourth grade, i didnt even have the attention span

required to recite the pledge half the time, let alone think critically about it.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[T Bone]

46. I pledge allegiance to the CONSTITUTION

of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation, under LAWS, indivisible, with liberty and justice for ALL.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

48. Hey I like that version!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

49. Nevermind!

[LiberalPersona]

50. That's great

It's nice to hear about children being taught to be logical and open-minded, with the capacity to disagree with authority at such an early age. That's exactly how I would raise a child, were I to desire having one.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

62. No other way to do it, in my mind!

:-)

[Egalitarian]

56. It is vital that we all think for ourselves.

Here are my thoughts on this matter. Please feel free to share them with her if you feel it is appropriate:

I too feel it strange to pledge my allegance to my country. My first obligation is to my true self-what I feel in my heart to be right. I can only pledge allegance to this, my true self. I think that deep down inside, we are all the same. Pledging allegance to a country is one of the things that can make us forget this. I would rather pledge allegance to the world and to the possibility that we can one day unlearn all of the things which make us think we are different, better, or worse than others. I think that the more we can think this way, the more fairly we will treat eachother and the happier we will all be. It warms my heart to hear of how serious you are. Some might say that you are too young to be serious, but I disagree. To be serious is to be truly human and there is no greater thing that we can be. But, of course there are times for being serious just as there are times for playing. May you always find a happy balance between the two.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

61. Great words

I will share them with her. She and I both like to hear the viewpoint of others.

[dsc]

57. I would call the teacher

You say she is new to the district and thus you know nothing about her presumedly. For all you know she may agree with your child on this (in most schools the pledge is done over the intercom). Instead of writing a confrontational note to a new teacher who could be an ally, you should call her up and tell her a) that your child prefers not to say the pledge and b) that you agree she shouldn't have to. Most teachers actually like kids and will work with you on this. Give her a chance to do so.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

60. You would think

I would have thought of that, being a teacher myself, but I didn't. And I think that is a superb idea. I will call her Monday. The note is worded rather abruptly (there's not many other ways to do it) and it can catch a person off-guard!

Thanks!

[dsc]

68. I understand why that district has put you on guard

but just like your experience has led you to be wary of teachers, often teachers become wary of parents due to experience. I hope things work out for you on this.

[arwalden]

65. The Pledge: How it's parroted by syllables... vs... the ACTUAL SENTENCES.

Read this as a WHOLE SENTENCE

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands."

Next whole sentence:

"One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


Or... the standard way. Recite the pledge as you've done a million times and maybe you'll agree that my inserted stage-directions and comments below are pretty accurate.

I pleja leejunce.... (pause)
to the flag.... (pause)
of the United Statesuv Merica. (voice drops. End of sentence?)

Anto the republic... (voice raises. Asking a question?)
forwich it stands.... (pause)
one nation ... (half-pause)
under god.... (pause)
with liverty injustice for all.


This sing-songy rote method of syllabic recitation is MEANINGLESS. They don't know what it means. They haven't a CLUE what some of the individual words mean (or how to pronounce them).

I FULLY UNDERSTAND that it's easier for children to learn (memorize) things when it's broken down into small digestible pieces and sentence fragments. (As above.)

Aside from the fact that the the pledge loses much of it's meaning when kids learn it and recite it that way... I can understand why it's initially taught that way. --- BUT WHAT BURNS MY ASS is when I hear adults... congress, the senate, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance the same sing-songy way.

You would think that our own politicians would make an effort to recite the pledge as two COHERENT complete sentences. (And don't get me started about the "under god" part.)

Thanks for listening. Rant over.

-- Allen

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

67. Oh I totally agree

last year, when my daughter first proposed to me that she didn't want to say it and explained why, she went around the playground at recess a couple of days and asked kids what words like "pledge" and "allegiance" and "republic" and "indivisible" meant. Very few of them could accurately tell her. They were third graders. Can you imagine how strange it sounds to a kindergartner?

She looked up all the big words in the pledge in the dictionary and that's what really tipped her over to the side of not wanting to say it. Why? She fully digested the MEANING of the pledge, she got how significant of a thing it is to say and she looked around and just saw kids and her teacher rattling it off like it was nothing and she had just discovered it very much WAS something.

She's a kid who does love her country (I had to actually tell her teacher that last year). It is her love for her country that MADE her question the pledge and the way it is said. And I have to admit to not being that aware as a child. I just knew you had to put your hand over your heart, look at the flag and say all these words.

After first grade, we didn't say it anymore (Dallas suburb in the 70s and 80s). So I never really thought about it.

[Nobody]

82. This is how I learned it

Yo juro fidelidad a la bandera de los Estados Unidos de America, y a la republica que representa, una sola nacion, (I leave out the bajo Dios part), con libertad y justicia para todos.

Yes it's in Spanish. We never said the Pledge until I took Spanish in summer school in 4th grade.

I have to translate in my head whenever I attend an event that has us saying the pledge in English.

[msanthrope]

76. Your kid rocks...good job Mommy Moonbeam. n/t

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

79. Aw

now don't go making me blush!!! Thank you.

[SuffragetteSal]

80. I didn't want to either when I was a kid

and that was more than 40 years ago...so I would place my hand across m heart and mouth the words but wouldn't say them out loud. I remember feeling pretty darn good about myself (sometimes I would even make up my own words but just not say them out loud). It worked for me.

Good luck.

[WLKjr]

81. You know I felt that way too when I was that age

I alwasy thought just saying it on monday, the beggining of the school week would be enough. Signify the start of a new week of learning about Our country and our freedoms and to learn about those who fought for them.