how much does our primitive caveman brain affect our politics?

[mopaul]

how influential is the animal, instinctual side of our psyche in regard to modern day civics and politics? like our primal instinct to follow a leader, or dominant male. our instinct to make war with other tribes, and to conquer and pillage. and our instincts to vote for a leader and obey his orders.

are these traits that are inherently in all of us being used against us by the devious among us? are we all being played for chumps because we've been hardwired to do so since we lived in caves? can these instincts be turned off or controlled? instincts like the survival instinct, and the group instinct. basic, fundamental and primitive instincts that work for and against us.

it's very interesting that right now, the stupidest man to ever be the president is raping america without any resistance from his supporters or detractors. it is some sort of instinctual malfunction that prevents us from stepping in and stopping these idiots? are we unable to overcome our ancient, primal instinct to follow the chief of our tribe into oblivion?

[robcon]

1. Your post, IMO, is very unscientific.

There is no "primitive" part of our brains. Every part of the human brain has evolved - not just the part that is "different" from other animals.

[checks-n-balances]

3. What about the "reptilian brain" that we all have?

I think that's what mo paul is referring to, as in:

"Neurologists remind us that despite evolution, we still possess a 'reptilian brain' stem sitting at the top of our spinal column called our ‘amygdala’. Our ‘reptilian brain’ is still hard wired with ‘fight or flight’ responses that helped our ancestors survive threatening situations."

From "Negotiating with an Unreasonable Manager":
http://www.negotiationeurope.co.uk/articles/articles-negotiating-unreasonable-manager.asp

Also, from "The Reptilian Brain":

"The basic ruling emotions of love, hate, fear, lust, and contentment emanate from this first stage of the brain. Over millions of years of evolution, layers of more sophisticated reasoning have been added upon this foundation.

"Our intellectual capacity for complex rational thought which has made us theoretically smarter than the rest of the animal kingdom.

"When we are out of control with rage, it is our reptilian brain overriding our rational brain components. If someone says that they reacted with their heart instead of their head. What they really mean is that they conceded to their primative emotions (the reptilian brain based) as opposed to the calculations of the rational part of the brain."

http://www.crystalinks.com/reptilianbrain.html

On edit: spelling & additional info

[Tsiyu]

13. People With Brain Stem Function Only

typically perform only the most basic of functions, all involuntary. They are in what one might term a vegetative state.

There is posturing when there is damage and/or brain function shut down. Stimuli might produce a rudimentary fight or flight reflex but there would be very little the body could do do impact its own safety.

Whether or not we are "influenced" by our "brain stems" seems to me like asking how the car battery tells the engine's microchips how to perform.

Sorry, too much time spent treating head and spinal cord injuries....

[nolabels]

75. By the same token, conditioning of the operant part being overidden....

is not always a bad thing. In simple terms the individuals that are called brave that override or ignore orders given by others because others might suffer, could come from a more basic part of our mammalian brain.

If you think of life as a series of overlays instead of this part fits on that part, it is much easier to understand how instinct and genetics play such an important role. Which is not say that one is better than another, but possibly more adapted or inclined to do one thing rather than another. Never written in stone but tend to for survival seems so simple

Brain
the mammalian brain

Mammal brains are an elaboration and expansion of reptile brains. Basic mammalian life-style functions appear mediated by the mid-brain; these include social/sexual relationships, parenting, and vocal communication using the larynx. As mammals evolved and differentiated, the neo(new)cortex becomes increasingly large and important. Substantial reorganization may have occurred as pathways evolved connecting mid-brain regions to neocortex and as packing of neocortex into the skull brought about new connections within the cortex.

(Figure below modified from MacLean (1990)


the primate version of the mammal brain
Brains can be compared in terms of size, relative proportions, and the presence of specialized unique areas. (See HP, ch.5) In addition, though more difficult, we can look at the microstructure of cytoarchitecture, interconnecting pathways, and rates of information processing. The cerebellum, for example, is involved in sequencing rapid movements, demanding precise timing and rapid flow of information.
basic principles of primate brains
size
Primate brains are large relative to mammal brains. The human brain is three times the weight expected for a non-human primate of our weight.
(snip)
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~jel/brain.html

[mopaul]

10. i'm not a scientist

just a crackpot armchair anthropologist

[Sparkly]

53. I'm not either

but even if it's not a physically-defined part of the brain considered the "animal instinct" part, I do believe we retain animal instincts. If science doesn't prove it, then it's "faith-based" I guess, but I still believe it.

Look at what our bodies do in flight/fight responses, even when we're not going to flee or fight. And I like all the hypotheses about "hunters" and "gatherers," and tribal methods of survival and growth. It does fit, seems to me. I think a lot of our problems stem from how far we've strayed from what we're sort of programmed to be, as a result of how the means of survival have changed, and how the changes separate us.

So I really like your post. It gives me something to think about! :)

[checks-n-balances]

2. I'd say it affects many GOP voters about 100%

You've hit on something very basic, and GOP operatives have been exploiting it exponentially from Goldwater to Nixon to Reagan to Bush I & II, especially since 9/11. However, that has to be quite a feat, since it's likely that most of the present BushCo would qualify as primitive cavemen themselves.

(edited for misspelling)

[madrchsod]

4. we have become civil

back in the old days,if the leader screwed up he was either killed in battle or the people revolted and killed him.

[reprehensor]

5. OG NOT VOTE

ARRRRRRRRGHHHHH

[Kanary]

6. yes and no....

Obviously, the RW has become quite adept at appealing to the basest instincts of USians. May their gawd confront them mightily for it, and dump them in the deepest resesses of their own hell.

The other side of it is, though, that primitive people knew instinctively, and at a very deep level, how much they needed and depended on others for their survival. They KNEW they would die if they were to be on their own. (Same is true of the US Mountainmen, btw).

All of this rugged individualism shit is NOT primitive -- not by any means. It's another clever and destructive ploy of the RW.

Kanary

[Ron Green]

7. I think of it in terms of the Chakras....

...in that we're all made up of centers of energy, from the lowest (fear, sex, survival) up through the middle ones (the will, the heart, the voice) to the highest (the All-Seeing Eye, the universal spirit). The RW and their message mongers know that people respond more immediately with their lower selves (the Lizard Brain, if you will). That's why sex sells, and fear sells. Democracy and altruism are much harder, because they appeal to the higher centers.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. Could be

but in the spiritual practices I'm familiar with, the chakras are viewed not seperately, but as a whole, with emphasis on the energy flowing through all of them. But when one looks at the Republican viewpoint, which generally is one of self-interest, versus the liberal viewpoint, which stresses wholeness and interconnectedness, it would make sense that the Republicans would be pushing buttons that effect the lower chakras. You've got me thinking in a different way about things-thanks!

Btw, welcome to DU!

[Ron Green]

9. Thanks for the welcome, and yes....

I agree that the "energy centers" seem to be connected in a continuous flow, or should be. But those who would divide and conquer others need to interrupt that flow and focus just on sex, or fear, or whatever. I mean, sex is a good thing, right? But it must be connected with love (the heart) and spirituality (the highest Chakra) to be meaningful, or it's just animal stuff. Which is fine, but as we know ultimately brings many problems, to which I'm sure many of us here can attest. ;)

[tngledwebb]

11. We are worse than 'primitive' cavemen

..and from some nature programs it seems animals pick or follow leaders based on intelligence, size, or strength, as observed in one to one combat. They don't have 'wars' except for very good reasons, usually food or land. Would the need for oil apply? WW 1 gave millions of idealistic and clear-eyed young men the chance to fight and die, like lemmings, in the most senseless conflict of that century, the only 'gain' to set a solid foundation for WW 2. Freud evolved the Thanatos concept to explain these odd human behaviors. (BTW, recently some 'primitive' cave dwellers pulled off the second biggest sneak attack in history against the most powerful military in the world. Their ringleader has yet to be brought to justice. His name is... Emmanuel Goldstein.)

[opihimoimoi]

12. Old Brain, the cortex, and new brain, the frontal lobe is described in

the med books.

For a look at the diffs, look up JANUS by Arthur Kostler.

Old Brain: instinct, emotion, auto reflexes

New Brain: abstract thinking, logic, reason, sanity, common sense.

We Humans cling to emotions to make major decisions often over riding reason and logic.....with dire coinsequences.

Such is Bush.

Then we use emotion to convince ourselves Bush is good and we made the right decision to elect him and he should be re elected.

Reason and Logic informs us otherwise...but who are they that we should listen? That is the paradox facing us guys.....

[H2O Man]

14. This is a good post.

In fact, it's a serious thread. The human brain has absolutely "evolved," and that simple truth can be shown by taking even a quick look at the brains of our other close relatives on the family tree.

The actual "primitive" section of the brain, as noted, is the stem, which we share with reptiles. In fact, the fetus's brain "evolves" in the most literal sense in the womb: it starts as a couple cells, evolves into a fiush's brain, becomes amphibian at 7 weeks, and builds, layer after layer. And it becomes disctinctly human at the end of this process, with the addition of an outer layer in the back, which gives us "consciousness" different than for example our cousins who resided in the caves of France. The Neanderthals had a larger "forebrain," which indicates an entirely different level of consciousness, not entirely like our most alert dream-state.

However, what mopaul is referring to -- and he is 100% correct -- has more to do with what C. G. Jung spoke of occuring among the Germanic peoples between 1890 and 1938. It's probably one of the more important topics to be brought up on DU, although it may be one of the least understood. Mopaul is as serious below the surface of his wild and ourageously hilarious sense of human as the human brain is complexely layered. "Arm-chair" scientist, indeed!

[berry]

21. Have you read Alice Miller on this?

I need to go read about Jung's ideas about this (thanks for the note), but Miller has written extensively about her idea that the problem in Germany was authoritarianism (unthinking obedience to those in positions of authority/power). That part isn't new. But she believes that it is rooted in child-rearing methods, where the parent rules the child through fear, intimidation and abuse (physical punishment and worse). She offers as evidence of her theory a study that was done about Germans who didn't buckle under, but acted to save others at considerable risk to themselves. All of them described their parents as loving and as reasoning with them rather than threatening them when they misbehaved. She also cites very popular manuals for childrearing (that came out about the turn of the century) that practically advocated torturing children.

I think that it's reasonably well-accepted that abused childen will themselves become abusive parents (unless other factors intervene). So we really do have to get those other factors into operation. And work hard against the authoritarian mind-set. It certainly destroys lives, and I think is also a factor in our present political sickness.

[Kanary]

22. What Alice Miller had to say about child-raising should be a warning

to us all about where we're headed with all the home schooling abounding. With parents who are the loving and reasoning ones she describes, it's not a problem. But, with the authoritarian fundy parents, not having any mitigating factors in their lives and no reporting mechanisms, kids being home schooled by these parents are without doubt going to grow up with the kinds of emotional problems that lend themselves to the type of mentality present in pre-Nazi Germany.

As that segment of the population grows and comes of age, we're in deep Sununu.

Kanary

[Ladyhawk]

78. I should read Alice Miller.

I grew up in an authoritarian fundy household. It affected me deeply.

Also, the fundies I knew were encouraged to have a lot of children so that Christians would eventually outnumber non-Christians. The fundies are serious about taking over America. Having lived with them, I can tell you that they won't give up until the government is filled with John Ashcrofts.

[H2O Man]

23. Actually, no , I haven't .... yet ....

But if you and Kanary recommend her writings, then I certainly will. A week ago I wrote some ideas down about culture, specific to raising children .... and I based a good bit of it on what I learned 20+ years ago from reading Erich Fromm ..... he wrote the introduction to A.S. Neill's classic book, "Summerhill." That's going back a ways .... I probably last read "Summerhill" in 1976 .... I'm sure it's in one of my bookcases still .....

The two issues -- relating to the intense work Jung did regarding the (very scarey) dreams reported by German citizens in the early 20th century .... which fully anticipated the rise of the nazi beast; and the thoughts regarding child-rearing practices ..... are of great interest. I would enjoy the opportunity to take part in a thread (or series of threads) on that range of topics.

[Kanary]

25. "The Drama Of The Gifted Child" by Alice Miller

subtitled "How Narcissistic Parents Form and Deform the Emotional Lives of Their Talented Children"

Is that enough of a teaser? It was originally titled "Prisoners of Childhood" I hold it in my hand, and just the power of it transfers to my soul. :)

Ah, yes, "Summerhill"........ thanks for the great memories..... Unfortunately, I don't think I even have a copy anymore. I guess I now present myself as a certified kook for having lived and breathed with that book while my son was small.

Fromm, and certainly Maslow, also....... Yes, definitely Maslow! :thumbsup:

Just an aside, H2O Man -- is there *any* subject in which you are *not* extensively read? Quite the renaissance man!

Kanary
edited to add....... just yesterday, my sadly deficient memory was trying to resurrect which author it was who so very well delineated the stages of developement, with the lessons learned from each. I have a friend with a young child, and she is very open to great info. Have you any idea? (note to self: get memory upgrade.)

[H2O Man]

27. I think you are

refering to Eric Ericson, and the "ten steps" that human being take, over and over. His book on Gandhi is, perhaps not surprisingly, one of my favorites.

I appreciate your kind words. I grew up very poor, in a hostile and violent section of the world. Because of poverty, I had an untreated oral disease, and, to make a long story a little shorter, didn't talk much at all for many years. But I read.

I still read! (grin) I find in conversations with well-educated folks that there are words I am familiar with in print, but am hesitant to try to pronounce.

There are few things I am not interested in reading, save fiction. I enjoy the opportunity to learn from people who are more educated than I am in many, many areas. I still prefer the written word to the spoken one .....

[Kanary]

30. Erickson! Of course -- I knew that!

Thanks so much.... I'm glad someone still has a memory!

Thank you so much for sharing your history... I'm profoundly moved. It definitely *does* explain your extensive knowledge. And, also, your beautiful humility. I am deeply affected by what you have gone through. I wish that hadn't happened to you. (Obviously) At the same time, I'm very grateful for the amazing person you have become. I thank you so much for sharing all this with us!

I have an elderly friend who was also inspired to be a life-long learner. He is woefully ignorant of the psychological studies, (and, in fact, has a bias against the whole subject), but otherwise there is not a subject I can bring up which he is not well-versed in. This is what the wisdom of age is supposed to be..... I feel like I learn so much at "his feet".

What's scary is that there is now a young woman who is starting to view me in sort of that way...... Yikes! Time marches on....... :hi:

Just caught that one line....... so, you don't enjoy much fiction? I've always thought that I got quite a bit from fiction. WE all have our own venues to knowledge......

Thanks again!

Kanary

[Ladyhawk]

79. I always enjoy your posts.

There are many well-read, educated, intelligent people on DU. In fact, I'd say they're the norm. It's one of the few places on the net where I feel outclassed. *blush*

I only recently had a political awakening, so my knowledge of politics is rather limited. All I knew was that something was very, very wrong about the * presidency. I still have trouble putting it into words sometimes. That's why I come here.

[CaTeacher]

81. I am going to have to

get myself to the library! There are still so many great books left to be read!

Thanks for the great recommendations!

[berry]

32. Well, until other threads get started, here's a link.

I agree with Kanary--the most well-known of Alice Miller's works is "The Drama of the Gifted Child" (aka "Prisoners of Childhood"). Right now I'm slowly reading her "Thou Shalt Not Be Aware: Society's Betrayal of the Child", also available in paperback. But my post was based on an article, "The Political Consequences of Child Abuse," in The Journal of Psychohistory V. 26, N. 2, Fall 1998. You can find it at:

http://www.geocities.com/kidhistory/politica.htm

This is the site of:

Digital Archive of PSYCHOHISTORY Articles & Texts
http://geocities.com/kidhistory/indextxt.htm
(this link should work if the above link fails you? otherwise google Alice Miller or Psychohistory and you should be able to find it)

If you go to the section called "Journal Articles" you can find this article listed, and then a link to "more by Alice Miller" where you can find these:

"Overcoming the Feeling of Being Abandoned"
Excerpted from the book Prisoners of Childhood (1981)
"Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence"
Excerpted from For Your Own Good (1983)
"Society has Protected the Adult and Blamed the Victim"
Afterword from, For Your Own Good (1983)

Actually, the whole site is interesting. I'm going to try to read "The Emotional Life of Nations" by Lloyd DeMeuse next. I'm not sure that it's good, but the chapter titles are tantalizing. It's a book available in full at that site.

Thanks to you and Kanary for other stuff to read (much of which I too did read long ago, but it's time for a re-read I think). And I never read the one on Gandhi, so that'll be at the top of the list, along with the dream studies by Jung. Very interesting!

edited to add alternative link--hope it helps

[Kanary]

35. What a bonanza!

Thanks for all of that! :hug:

So many good titles there...... so little energy......

This really deserves a thread of it's own..... care to start it?

Now, from the sublime to the (seemingly) ridiculous..... Many years ago, I found a very simple little book that I think is also a treasure, although of certainly a much different magnitude. Try not to laugh at me too much, until you hear me out. :hi:

It's titled "Be-good-to-yourself Therapy", by Cherry Hartman, by Abbey Press. It's simplistic, yes, but it's (IMNO) very clever in it's simplicity. It contains what amounts to very healthy parental messages to overcome the toxic ones so many of us were given. I think it's genius is that in it's simplicity, it goes more directly into the gut level, rather than sitting in the intellect. I just gave it to a young mother with some parent problems, and she told me the other day that it's really amazing how helpful it is to her. Just a thought.

And, totally on another plane, have you read through "The Magic Monastary", by Theophane? It's available online, I just recently discovered. Some pithy sections. No Thomas Merton, but still worth while reading.

Thanks again for this list!

Kanary

[Kanary]

69. One other book of worthy note:

The Different Drum by Scott Peck.

Much insight into the psychology of communities, and what makes it work.

Kanary

[Ladyhawk]

77. Neanderthals had slightly larger brains than Cro-Magnons,

but they were shaped differently, with smaller frontal lobes and larger occipital lobes.

[H2O Man]

86. Hence the likelyhood

that they existed in the "now" to a larger degree than their cousins. The bibical story of the agricultural brother killing off his more peaceful hunter & gathering brother is rooted in this relationship.

[MisterP]

16. my emotions tell me Bush is wholly evil

my brain agrees (but that doesn't fit with the Saganite trilling about a war in the head and the Triumph of Reasonancommnsense)

[skygazer]

15. I don't think it's any "primitive part" of the brain

I think it's the fact that most people are too lazy to use their brain and instead believe the pap they're fed by the media and the political machine. Democracy is hard work. For a democracy to function, the people have to stay informed, ask questions, dig for answers and be alert to bullshit. Most people just don't want to work that hard.

[Gregorian]

17. Rarrr! Me Democrat!

I like your posts. And this is a good one.

Oh, how I wish I were literate. I could spew all kinds of philosophers names and ideas out. But alas, I only know thermodynamics and machine tool technology.

I believe that the human is set apart from the other animals, in very subtle but important way. I don't even know what that way is. And that doesn't answer your question. But this might- Greed. Which is fear, I think. (FDR was right, to a degree.) We really aren't doing much better than the animals. Nature is horrible. Violent, ruthless, painful. So, we are doing a little better than nature, although we are killing it. So it's a hard call.

I think ultimately we will destroy ourselve out of sheer greed and stupidity. A giant OOPS for mankind. We could make it to the moon, but we couldn't find consideration for those right nextdoor.

I also believe that there's more going on than appears. I believe (lots of "believes" going on here) there really is a good/evil battle between Satan and God. And it's as simple as chosing which one to follow. Not neccisarily what you proposed as an internal thing, but something from outside us. And as such, it's not Bush, or Hitler, but the choices they made, to allow Satan to work. I know that's going to go over big here. Satan?!

[shance]

18. You have such a way with RARRRING Greg***

ME Shance and me love your post!

<< We could make it to the moon, but we couldn't find consideration for those right nextdoor. >>

Heavy duty truth there. Me think technology and industrialization has something to do with this as well.

Yep, greed and stupidity are a pretty toxifying brew......seems to me we could use a little more talk on promoting peace and a lot less talk about war and profit.

think we could use a little more feminine energy involved in the governing process too, thats just ME.

glad to see you around. keep posting***

[Gregorian]

20. Affirmative with the feminine

Thanks Sance.
These old male codgers really are stale. Women have the other facet to reality. Without both views, all we get is a onesided picture. It's slow, but we're getting there. Hell, women have hardly started playing in rock and roll bands, which was highly male dominated. Politics is slowly changing.
Gosh, I'm affraid my post was tilted way to the fundy side. I was raised by a father who studied the bible like a manual, or a history book. And I think we do tend to repeat what we were taught. I really like the Satan idea, because it really takes the guilt away from us humans. We are all god's creatures, but have been infiltrated by an evil spirit. Still, I find it impossible to forgive people like Bush, Ashcroft, and Cheney.
It's lunchtime! Off to eat....

[berry]

19. Very good questions.

Some here have questioned the science of your post, but it's clear that the ad-men accept the premises--appeals to the "lowest" instincts sell.

This whole article is worth a read (do it soon before it goes to the paid archive--or offline entirely), but I'm posting a relevant paragraph about the behavior of social primates who are hierarchical (an instinct??). It's funny but also sobering:

Mind Reading
The new science of decision making. It's not as rational as you think.
By Jerry Adler
Newsweek International
Aug. 9 issue

"To illustrate how monkeys make economic decisions, Glimcher's former colleague Michael Platt, now at Duke, has investigated how they value status within their troop. Male monkeys have a distinct dominance hierarchy, and Platt has found they will give up a considerable quantity of fruit juice for the chance just to look at a picture of a higher-ranking individual. This is consistent with field observations, Platt says, which have found that social primates spend a lot of time just keeping track of the highest-ranking troop member. It isn't known exactly why monkeys do this, but the finding might help explain the behavior of human beings who pay $1,000 just to sit in a hotel ballroom with the president."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5570554/site/newsweek/

edited to add:
So, can we fight such dominance hierarchy, that results in following powerful leaders even to our doom? I think we can if we're conscious of the instinct and use our reason to resist it. But too few people are even trying... Also, I do think there are insticts for cooperation, nurturing, etc. And I think even altruism is an instinct, much as it is denied by the Hobbesians who think we are all driven always and only by greed. It's just that greed gets more cultural approval these days, in this country. How that came to be I just don't know...

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

24. I guess I must not have

any primitive caveman brain when it comes to politics, then, because I want the OPPOSITE of that in a world leader.

There is a difference between bullying and strong.

And you don't have to be belligerent and small-minded to be tough.

That's what bush supporters don't understand.

[J Williams]

26. Those are not really instincts, but ...

It's not an instinct to follow and obey the dominant male. The dominant male imposes his rule by intimidation, fear, and, if necessary, by brute force.

But ironically, you raise a very good point. Because we have really not advanced too far beyond when the strongest male became chief of the tribe. We accept our leader because he is the "strongest" (really the richest and/or most cunning) man who wins the partisan winner-take-all fight for power.

And speaking of Bush, it's not wise to underestimate him. Yes, he's either a deluded "religious" bigot or a pretender and a deceiver. But if you've seen and listened to him speak recently, you'll see that he is very cunning. He spins things very effectively to play to a partisan crowd, and he has become very effective at portraying himself as a "man of God." He has a whole lot of people fooled, because he probably actually beliefs he does serve God.

That's the real problem here. And the solution is not to replace him with someone else. It's to create government that really is of, by, and for the people ... to progress to a new system of choosing our leadership.

[Kanary]

28. Your last paragraph is very potent!

That, indeed, is the solution.

And the challenge.

Which I suspect we won't have the courage for.

Kanary

[J Williams]

29. Thanks. But I believe we can and will ...

I believe it's but a matter of time before we make partisan politics obsolete and relegate it to where it belongs ... history!

I believe we will progress forward just as soon as enough people get the message.

[Kanary]

31. I had that optimism

35+ years ago, in my dirty-hippie-commie-pinko-bum days.

I'm a lot more cynical now.

We lost so much ground, even if people were to suddenly "get smart", I can't see that kind of progress happening in my lifetime.

too bad....

Kanary

[J Williams]

36. I'm an old fart too, but ...

I'm 64, and a veteran of the Sixties too. But while I often dispair and feel extremely frustrated because so many people cannot or will not see the truth, I still believe in a far better day.

As I've said before, the works of Joseph J. Adamson actually restored my faith, especially his latest book, What IS the World Coming To?

[Kanary]

37. Thanks for the suggestion! It's going on my growing list....

I've always been optimistic and idealistic, and I think the combination doesn't work so well.

My faith in humanity has been shattered, not so much by the orgres at the top, but by the people around me, and the hurt is definitely harder to take when it comes from those who pride themselves on being liberal. The damage from that is much more severe.

Kanary

[H2O Man]

40. "You must not lose faith in humanity.

Humanity is an ocean. If a few drops of the ocean re dirty, the ocean does not become dirty." -- Mahatma Gandhi

[Kanary]

41. When I'm surrounded by "dirty drops", it is deeply hurtful

I suppose I could just "ignore" my own hurt, but experience tells me that does nothing productive.

I respect Gandhi, but I also know he had a lot of supportive people around him.

Or, maybe I'm just a failure.

:shrug:

Kanary, who was just being honest about herself and her feelings..... maybe that's not so wise.....

[H2O Man]

43. "all roads to wisdom

must first pass through the vallets of doubt." -I'm not sure the actual author, but my friend Rubin Carter told me that years ago .... I think in 1974.

You are clearly an intelligent and insightful person, and so I'll go out on a limb here .... and if I say anything that offends you, I do not intend to .... one of the things that used to annoy me in staff meetings at the mental health clinic I worked at was when a co-worker would say "I told so-and-so that other people can't make you feel differently, it's within yourself." Horseshit. From the time we're itty-bity to the day we die, other people influence us .... our parents! our siblings! our spouses! and our children! Of course they do. If my children love me, it makes me feel good. If my spouse betrayed me, I'd feel terrible.

But we can work on our internal locus, and find ways to feel good and grow, not because of any negative influence, but in spite of it. There are wonderful books (what else do I know) that deal with just this subject .... perhaps the single best is "Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning," by Viktor Frankel ..... and if you tell me that you've read it years ago, my friend Kanary .... I'll just say read it again .... because, as Eric Erickson reminds us, we have to take those same ten steps, over and over, at every level of our existence!

One thing that many people do not realize .... is that today is a miracle! Life is a miracle! And every one of us -- you, me, and every individual on earth -- is participating in a miracle .... life ... and we are in that Promised Land .... it's just very few people realize it.

[J Williams]

47. Yes, it's true ...

not enough people realize we live in the promised land and our longed-for "kingdom of heaven" is right here at hand.

But the biggest problem is that the most aggressive and selfish few think they can own most of it, and exploit and take advantage of the rest of us.

Even the most loving, faithful, forgiving person can't help but want to see things change. That's why the greatest one was an advocate for the poor, the meek, and the least of our brethren. And that's why he made a point of saying that the meek shall inherit the earth.

He knew that the day would come when the proud and militant bigots and hypocrites (like those on the "Religious" Right) would be exposed and brought low, so that the humble and meek CAN inherit the earth.

That day is coming. You can bet on it.

[H2O Man]

48. I agree 100%

a change is gonna come .....

[Kanary]

51. And here's a suggestion for you:

At least I still have compassion, which is lacking here.

And, I don't need parenting. I didn't dump on you for your personal revelation, and I surely didn't expect it back. Oh well.... it kinda proves my point.

bye now...

Since you want to hand out prescriptions, I have one for you:

Read and reread, and read again until it sinks in, the chapter on "Active Listening" in "Parent Effectiveness Training" and see how many of the "dirty dozen" you exemplified here in your replies to me.

I didn't ask your advice, nor for lectures and sermons. Nor to be corrected. I was simply being a human being who thought that was permissible, and thought my past kindness would be returned.

I'm very disappointed that you were unable to just relate to me as another hurting human.

Thanks for teaching me to keep silent.

At least I still have compassion, which is lacking here.

And, I don't need parenting. I didn't dump on you for your personal revelation, and I surely didn't expect it back. Oh well.... it kinda proves my point.

Kanary

[H2O Man]

34. Actually, in all of human history

including the other branchers of the family tree, groups of humans have been "led" (for lack of better word) by individuals who are male. Thus, the word "instinct" or "human nature" or any other similar term is less important than the fact, which is far beyond rational dispute, that this is the human type of organization.

Intimidation, fear, and brute are sometimes qualities apply to males who are in leadership positions. They are not "constants," however. Through time, when we examine all known evidence regarding the major eras (hunter & gatherers; herders; agrarians; etc, etc) those qualities are in the distinct minority throughout human history.

We find that not only are many men able to lead through gentleness, kindness, and appeals to reason (Jesus, Gandhi, King, my uncles) ..... and more, that under similar circumstances, women are as prone to violence as men.

What would be beneficial in reaching the "promised land" beyong racism, sexism, and republicans, would be to reduce the barriers between human beings. That includes stereo-types of male leaders. We need to understand that we are indeed the human family, with ALL that implies.

[J Williams]

38. Quite true, and ....

with that understanding must come action and reform. We must establish a political-economic system that is equitable, fair, and just, with a government that actually represents all of us.

Understanding that we all belong to one human family is not really enough. It is prerequisite to the change that is needed, but it must bring about the change.

[H2O Man]

42. I note you have the Lao quote

which is wonderful and positive. I like the poem "Prevailing Wind," or poem #22 of the collection known as "The Way of Life." I believe that Lao Tse ( or Tzu) translates to "old man," and refers more to a group of old men who had a monk-like community, as opposed to a single individual that western culture tends to identify these teachings with. Perhaps we can be the old folks on DU! (grin)

the crooked shall be made straight
and the rough places plains
the pools shall be filled
and the worn renewed
the needy shall receive
and the rich shall be perplexed

so the Wise Man cherishes the One
as a standard to the world
not displaying himself
he is famous
not asserting himself
he is distinguished
not boasting his powers
he is effective
taking no pride in himself
he is chief

because he is no competitor
no one in the world
can compete with him

the saying of the men of old
is not vain
"the crooked shall be made straight--"
to be perfect, return to it

[J Williams]

44. Great post. Thanks.

Nice to hear from a kindred spirit.

[Kanary]

39. You're certainly singing my song with that last paragraph!

Introspection is of utmost importance, and I see little hope of that happening anytime soon. It's always "over there". Hence, my pessimism.

I hope you have much more success getting this idea across than I've had.

Kanary

[Gregorian]

55. Man, that is beautiful.

[BonjourUSA]

45. I'll never understand anything.

If any leader said or even suggested in a speech to be "a man of God" I think all the European people would die of laughing. (I think and I hope)

[H2O Man]

46. well that would be quite a change.....

considering European history for the past 1500 years!

[J Williams]

49. Bush DOES think he is ...

a man of God. He doesn't say it like that, but if you've heard what he says in his stump speeches, it's pretty clear.

Also, the book I mentioned before states that: "... even though it’s not well known, Bush subscribes to the doctrine of 'end times' (eschatology), known as 'dominionism.' It is the eschatology through which Bush has come to see himself as an agent of God. As journalist Bob Woodward has said sarcastically, 'The president was casting his mission and that of the country in the grand vision of God’s Master Plan.' And in Woodward’s more recent book The Plan of Attack, he reveals Bush’s immense pride in his belief that he’s 'doing God’s will' by waging war."

[BonjourUSA]

50. But you don't explain why so many American people adhere to this idea

what forsakes me in an abyss of perplexity

[Kanary]

54. I have European friends who express the same perplexity

And, laugh their heads off at the religiosity of USians.

So, I know just what you're saying.

It's all rather ....... well, you know.....

Kanary

[J Williams]

56. Many on the "Religious" Right believe the same thing

Why do you think Jerry Jenkins' "Left Behind" book series has sold so many copies. Right-wing conservative preachers have been selling the idea that these are the "end times" for a long time, and a whole lot of blind flocks buy into it because they LIKE feeling superior, believing that only they have been "saved" and everyone else is going to hell.

They believe in the false, man-made doctrine of preeminence that claims the world will soon be destroyed and ONLY those who "accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior" will be "saved." That is where the blatant bigotry comes from.

That's why I'm trying to spread the word about the book title What IS the World Coming To? (ISBN: 059531998X) The author dispels the myths and false beliefs, and totally exposes the bigotry and hypocrisy of Bush and the Religious Right.

[H2O Man]

52. Sure ....

he uses the "code words" of his group all the time.

[J Williams]

57. Yes. (See "Many on the 'Religious' Right believe the same thing)

Bush is careful not to reveal that his beliefs are much the same as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell et al, but they are. His chief religious advisor and mentor is a Texas preacher who is about as bigoted and hypocritical as they come.

[berry]

59. I have the same problem as BonjourUSA (at least, as I understand it).

HOW can so many people believe the message of the "religious" right? And how many of the leaders really believe that message? And if they don't believe it themselves, it's even scarier, because it means they have an agenda that cannot possibly be good for anybody.

In general, I can put myself in others' shoes and try to follow their logic (at least tentatively), while not necessarily agreeing. But with these guys, it's like trying to understand why people join a cult. (Well, I think it IS a cult, a huge cult.) I simply can't "get" it. (Maybe like not getting a joke?) I do know there are ways to understand it from the outside--psychology, sociology, manipulation, etc. But I can't imagine it from the inside. I admit to not being able to understand how people can not see through Bush, either. And worse, the Bush-worship seems to be merging with the religious beliefs, with the implied goal of making America one big cult. I think that's why Europeans (among others) are bewildered and appalled. As I am.

The answer to the question of WHY they believe this ugly message (if they do) may be very sinister indeed. Mass hypnosis?

[Kanary]

60. From listening to my European friends it's more than that.

As they have explained it to me, they are truly puzzled that USians, of *any* religious stripe, not just the fundies, get all their moral ideas from religion. Europeans get their moral training from their society, which teaches them to not just look out for their own selves, but to consider the needs of others, and to look out for the best interests of the society.

See the difference?

When it was explained to me, it took on a whole different look, and I can understand the perplexity someone from another country has for the US.

One thing I learned from anthropology is the value of standing outside your own culture, and looking at it from the perspective of other cultures. At one point I thought we, as a culture, were progressing towards that. I now see us as having retreated so far from that ideal as to be nearly Neanderthals compared to some European nations.

Kanary

[BonjourUSA]

61. I don't know whether the USA are...

...either a huge church in which everybody can find religious products in the continuity of the consumption society and in this case we can just take an amused gander, or a huge church in which very many people are sure to be right with a messianic mission and in this case your nation is a danger.

[H2O Man]

62. I find the idea that Europe

is somehow more progressive and mature in matters "religious" to be both amazing and amusing.

[BonjourUSA]

63. Could you explain ?

[H2O Man]

65. Sure .....

I'll start by saying that my grandfather came from a European country. In his childhood, another European country made a series of laws that restricted the religious, economic, political, and cultural freedoms of my extended family. I'm still in contact with my relatives in Ireland; although things are better in many ways, the "visitors" from that other refined and civilized European country are still there.

Now if we go from my grandfather's lifetime to my father's, I'd note a war of some significance. It was centered in Europe. I mention it because mature cultures do not simple look at the immediate "now," ... they look at the long-term. And in human history, no part of the planet has a longer or more violent history than Europe.

In terms of political systems, the American is -- and this is my opinion -- of far greater potential for good that any in Europe. It unfortunately follows that the good potential has with it an equal potential for bad .... and right now, we have the baddest of the bad. The Bush administration is so bad, in fact, that there is heated debate as to if it resembles the baddest from the last generation from .... Europe! (grin)

The thoughts on religion are fascinating: what is American Christianity if not the off-spring of European Christianity? Sharing the same genetic code in every sense? The serious question would be how does European religion differ in any serious manner from it's American child?

In truth, religions are grounded in the culture of its people: hence, throughout world history, one finds identicle belief systems in hunters & gatherers; in agrarian peoples; and in industrial societies. The only differences are those based upon the weather and other climatic factors.

The Bush administration was not elected, and does not represent the majority of people in our country. We're in a serious struggle today, and the truth is that the GOOD potential of America is threatened .... America could die in the next four years. And that's a shame. But it's not because America is inferior to Europe .... and guess what? What happens here will happen there .... because we are all in this together. And it's time to put away silly feelings and judgements and to work together to face common threats.

[H2O Man]

71. Any response?

Just curious ..... as you had asked me to explain my thinking, I figured you might respond. I'm not trying to be offensive; I just think the idea that Europe is significantly different that the United States is incorrect.

This thread was going fairly well. There are a number of intelligent people with differing points of view participating. I hope we can keep it going.

[BonjourUSA]

85. I need to sleep sometimes

The earth is round !!!

;-)

And I spend my WE with my son. I'll answer you later. soon

[H2O Man]

87. Sure.

Whenever is convenient. I got your e-mail ..... I hadn't intended a private correspondance ..... and I think it's fine that you disagree, even strongly, with my opinions about the United States and Europe.

France is a fascinating country, with a rich history. I have respect and an appreciation for France. However, I do not think that in an honest comparison, it is superior to the USA in any meaningful way. However, I am not proud of the mindless "France-bashing" that some of the foolish Americans participated in.

But I'll wait patiently for your answer. Let's hope this thread is still going. (grin)

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[J Williams]

66. Not ALL rich folk are greedy, selfish and uncaring

Franklin D. Roosevelt, the Kennedys, and many other rich Democrats show that not all rich people are greedy, selfish and uncaring.

You imply that only the poor can speak out against the plight of the working poor, and against poverty, hunger and homelessness. But if that were true, NOTHING would ever have been done about it. At least Democrats have traditionally tried to do something about it.

The trouble is, as many of us realize, Democrats since the late 1980s have, out of political expediency, moved to the right. And today you don't hear any politicians talking about poverty, hunger, or homelessness. They do mention the plight of the working poor and the minimum wage a little bit, but not enough to make people aware of what a huge problem it is.

The households of 20 percent of the children in America live in poverty. And that's going by the government's poverty line, which is calculated by 1950s standards. The actual figure is about twice that. And the stats regarding all the people who are actually worse off because of the so-called Welfare Reform are tragic. But we don't hear about them. It's not newsworthy.

If anyone DOES talk about it, the Republicans accuse them of fueling "Class Warfare," or worse. And that tactic works.

THAT's what's happening.

[H2O Man]

67. I don't think that is what

the poster implied. However, it may be a more interesting topic for general discussion. There has been a significant amount of discussion regarding the concepts of capitalism, socialism, and communism on DU in the past few months. Probably 90% of the contributors would not pass an introductory class, based on the errors expressed about what these economic systems are -- and, of course, are not.

Free enterprise and a free market economy become impossible to discuss with those who do not have a basic grasp of economic theory. I am sure that most people's hearts are in the right place, but there is a sad lack of knowledge about economic theory here.

Lacking that insight makes it impossible to understand that rich people can and do play an important part in the curing of the world's ills.

[J Williams]

73. I see what you mean, but it's not that complicated ...

I do see what you mean about what the "I'm curious" poster meant. And I understand you're frustration about those who talk about economics without an understanding of economics.

On the other hand, I really don't think the basic problem is all that complicated. Most of us can clearly see what huge income disparity there is when CEOs rake in more than 500 times the income as average workers, and when the lowest incomes do not provide enough to be able to afford the mere necessities of life.

Many of understand that with all the tax cuts, tax loopholes, tax shelters, government subsidies, giveaways and welfare for the rich that Republicans have created during the last 24 years, most of the very wealthiest Americans have been paying only about 7 percent of their income in taxes while the working poor with the lowest incomes have been paying about 10.8 percent. And Bush's tax cuts give even more breaks to the wealthiest people.

Some of us understand that this is especially unfair and tragic considering the incomes of the richest 20 percent of the population grew by 30 percent during the last two decades while the incomes of the lowest paid 20 percent of us declined by more than 20 percent in the same time period.

It's really not all that complicated. And it's pretty clear that we need political-economic reform very badly.

[H2O Man]

74. Yes. You are right.

What I was refering to was, for example, people saying "We need socialism," but not knowing that we have socialism. Some of it is good: public schools and medicaid/medicare.

And some of it is not good: our new "environmental policies" are an obscene form of socialism ..... because communities are responsible for the clean-up costs for the illegal dumping of industries. The EPA's ability to enforce environmental laws that took 30 years to build up, has been savaged. That's not "free enterprise," where you get the rewards and the bills from your own business venture. It's socialism. The community pays for it.

So, while I agree that many of the concepts involving right vs wrong are relatively simple, I am convinced that the ability to communicate is based on understanding words' meanings. Words are powerful. They give us the ability tocommunicate clearly. The lack of knowledge of words leaves people frustrated, in that they may know right from wrong, but they can't explain how or why.

[J Williams]

80. Agreed. Thanks for the clarification.

I think you put it very well.

[Kanary]

68. Your heartlessness bespeaks the true poverty of this nation..

the lack of compassion.

May you experience what I have, in order to crack open your hard heart.

Kanary

[berry]

72. Truth be known, you don't *sound* curious.

You sound as if you already know what you want to think. You also employ loaded words to try to diminish the poster you are attacking. You choose to call it "carrying on" when someone expresses anger and frustration. Um-hmm. Attack the manner (by mischaracterizing it), instead of calmly addressing the issue (not that I can discern what that is except to discredit or wound someone, or both).

I don't know if Kanary is an empathetic, altruistic rich person or a living-on-the-very-edge poor person. Also, there is no reason (especially in the US today) why someone who has been moderately well off and even very well-educated can't have met ill-fortune and fallen through the cracks. People are going bankrupt in droves, people lose everything they ever owned when catastophic illness strikes, people are laid off. All sorts of things befall people and there isn't always a safety net. So whatever the truth is (and it isn't my or your business to demand answers), the larger truth is that these ARE big problems for millions of people in our country. Why would you attack the messenger? In any case, this tactic doesn't work very well because your message, if you had one, is completely lost.

I realize I'm butting in here. You weren't addressing me. But I just couldn't bear to walk by when I was witnessing a mugging.

[CaTeacher]

82. I find it offensive

that the discourse can go so quickly from a friendly discussion of books and anthropology to a personal attack on a poster.

I am a friend of Kanary's and I don't see that she has said anything in this thread (or anywhere else for that matter) that would justify a personal attack on her. I particularly dislike the implication that she is being dishonest in her presentation of herself--in my opinion, a post like the one above verges on being against the rules of civility that we are supposed to show toward our fellow posters here at DU.

[H2O Man]

84. We might do well to

refocus on the friendly discussion of books and anthropology. The two I thought were of interest to the on-going discussion were C.G. Jung's Analytical Psychology: Its Theory & Practice, and Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning. Is anyone here familiar with them? I think they could be discussed in the context of the thread, without anyone insulting others or feeling insulted.

The Jung book includes a series of his lectures, where he speaks in detail about the archetypes being activated in a wide number of individuals, and coming to the collective surface of the unconscious prior to the great events of history. The most fascinating example he gives is of his studies in Germany, going back decades before the rise of the nazi beast. Jung knew it was coming.

Frankl's book is the flip side of the coin. It basically is in recognition of the fact that we all have our pain and emotional baggage and personal histories. His was far more extreme than the usual, of course, because he was in a nazi death camp. (Yes, there is a connection between the books!) Frankl outlines a method for the spiritually advanced to follow, to move beyond the archetypal monstors of the collective, and to become fulfilled as individuals. And, according to his beliefs, that moves the collective forward.

Two years ago, I helped a friend of a friend, who is a professor at a state university, and who is/was writing a book on forgiveness. Wow! She had an extreme story. And I helped facilitate a friend adding a chapter. My friend is Rubin Carter, who spent 20 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. He wote about how angry and bitter he became when he was jailed in the mid-1960s. I still have letters, many from long before the celebrities like Bob Dylan became involved. Others are 40 and 50 pages, written while he is underground, in solitary confinement, and beginning to recognize that although he was innocent of the crimes, he had to let go of the bitterness in order to grow beyond incarceration.

It's a tough process. But it isn't good enough, at this late date in humanity's stay on earth, to point fingers "out there" and say others need to change. We will only save the soul of America by changing ourselves ..... because it is only by our changing, that we can help our scared, angry, and bitter siblings to change.

I hope we get the discussion back on track.

[Snoggera]

33. Me unsure

Woman steal club. Woman angry. Me not know why. Me hurt.

Me no talk no more.

Me name George. Me monkey man.

[eleny]

58. A freeper wouldn't last long in my cave

And that's all I know for sure.

[vetwife]

70. Whoaaaaa. Pretty broad Stroke with that assumption !

What is impoverished? To Bush it would be losing 10 or 12 oilwells.
Kanary is a well informed individual who calls it as she sees it.
So do I. I tell you right now, I borrow from Peter to pay Paul every month. I don't judge a person's motives unless they attack and I don't like for people to generalize. I think it is presumptive to question a person's needs ! Maybe Kanary has needs that is none of one's business and it puts her in dire straits. We are a community here on DU, not flame throwers. I find that post tasteless and not serving our cause of getting rid of Bush. You just don't kick a person when they are down unless of course you are a Republican right winger ! That was not directed to you Eleny....
I think 64 knows who I am talking to !

[eleny]

76. Thanks Vetwife! I was wondering what was up

Agree with you, btw.

[Disturbed]

83. Strong leader,

That's the main debate now between Dumbass and J. Kerry. I believe that J. Kerry had and has courage and that Dumbass is a coward. Is that primitive thinking?