What is the threshold for recognizing sacrifice ?

[moof]

A little back ground,

Since it looks like there may be reason to think massive protests could again be
launched all over America, there has been some research being done at the
moof hut into what people in the past have done
in order to bring pressure to a situation and focus on a cause.

It looks like it would require the most massive & strongest possible types of
protest to have any impact.

So the research stated with those that paid the ultimate price.

It was surprising to find so little information on people that had gone to such
extremes to make their point.

The monks in Vietnam that set themselves on fire in protest inspired several
people in America to do the same thing during the late 60s.

The tradition was continued when bush1 started the first gulf war.

There is almost no information on the people that gave their lives in protest
back in 1990/91 and if anyone can find the name of the third and possibly last
person to do it on Feb.18, 1991, you are better at googling and research than
moof.

A couple moof threads about it got next to nothing in response.
===========================

Now the point of this thread.

Don't go off the deep end here, no one is saying or expecting anyone to do
anything about any sort of tribute to any of these protesters.

The question is simply this,
and the Vietnam war is being used because more lives were at stake at the time
of the protest.

The 58 thousand people that ended up with their names on the Vietnam wall
were more than deserving of any and all honors and recognition and there is
nothing moof would not do to bring back any one of them.
The vast majority of them it is assumed went to Vietnam hoping to return to
America and resume their lives.

The eight people (if thats all there were) that gave their lives in protest of that
war and in hopes of drawing enough attention to the war that people would
demand that the killing be stopped.
They gave their lives knowing and willing to never have a chance to resume their
lives in hopes that as it turns out that 25 thousand of the names on the wall
might not have been there. Not to mention all the humans that were killed
because they lived in Vietnam.

Shouldn't there be some recognition somewhere about the sacrifice of these
people ?

If nothing else shouldn't their names and information about their protest event
be a matter of public record that is accessable to the masses like the internet
? It appears now that there is at least one unknown protester and it is really
crummy that this guys name is not even on file where people in research could
easily access it.

No disrespect meant to any of those that served fought were injured or killed
but it does seem that on some level these protesters were
trying to save lives and make the world a better place & they have been for the
most part erased from American history.

[shockingelk]

1. nations do not build monuments to those who protested their wars

Lots of people still think Vietnam was a great idea.

As is the case with the Gulf War as well. There are some who say the US gave Hussein a green light to invade Kuwait, but aside from that, I do think it's OK to enter into military conflict to stop a deadly military campaign another party initiated.

[moof]

2. and your answer is .......????????

Sorry if you included it but is does not reveal itself enough to be seen at this end of the net.

Maybe the question suffered the same fate.
To that end here it is in less words.

" Do people reading this thread feel that on a personal level
protesters that gave their lives to try and save others from being killed deserve to have their efforts recognized as much as the people whose lives they were trying to save ? "

As was stated in the orginal message, it is not expected or suggested that anyone will do anything to change the situation. This is to ask if in people's personal opinion that it would be the fair thing to do.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. If we erected Peace Memorials people might get the wrong idea.

They might begin to think that working for peace is more important than waving flags and sending our troops off to fight heroically defending the CEOs' rights to have $20,000 shower curtains and golden bathtubs. Not to mention politicans surrounded by guys wearing really cool looking camis and brandishing guns.

And, can you imagine any politican brave enough to pay homage to dirty heathen Buddhists or those long-haired hippie students at Kent State? Soldiers who kill people are much more popular than folks who sacrifice to save people.

[Kanary]

7. Yes, I absolutely *do* agree with you.

People who care enough about their country to disagree with it's disastrous decisions and actions are every bit as much patriotic as those who put on a uniform and go off to war for their nation.

The Founders of this country said that in as many words, and there are many quotations from them that demonstrate their feelings on this matter.

The only thing that I would disagree with you about in your post is that there were very many more than 8 who died in protest of the Vietnam war. Kent State alone claimed 4 lives.

Thank you for posting this!

Kanary

[moof]

13. Agreed on the Kent State murders but here the point is

like the people that went to fight and were killed in Vietnam,
the people murdered at Kent State made the desixion to participate hoping and assuming they would escape with their lives although it seems unlikely that anyone anywhere thought any people would lose their lives before the Kent State event took place.

The 8 Americans during Vietnam and the 3 during 1990/91
made their protests knowing full well
it would be the last thing they ever did.

In some respects it seems they were on fairly high moral ground.

the old adage

"All gave some and some gave all"

seems to need another line to acknowledge those

"who gave all"

and knew they were going to give their life and did it anyway.

[Kanary]

14. I acknowledge your delineation, and respect the lines you have set

We all have different ideas about this, and that's OK, too.

I would bring up that I don't think many on that wall of 58,000 went with the idea that it was the last thing they would do. I think most of them fully expected to come home.

I just see it as life is life, and death is death.

It's OK that you see it differently.

Kanary

[moof]

17. sorry for the delay Kanary

Got sidetracked by RL.

From what you said it appears we agree and the fault lies with moof for not making the stance clear.

In order of the individual's knowledge of their risk of life.

At the top of such a list, there are no doubt some people on the wall that agreed to
go on a mission or face a battle knowing full well they were not going to survive it.

Next in line would come the 8 people that decided to give their life
in protest by setting themselves on fire. They also knew they were not going to survive and went anyway.

Next are all the other people on the wall that went in harms way
hoping they would survive but didn't get to come back.

Next would come the Kent State victims. It seems many of the Keny State protesters would have not shown up had they thought they would be doing so at the risk of death.

This order is not meant to be 1,2,3,4 only the approximate order of the groups mentioned so far.

Now are we on the same page ? If you are saying that anyone that lost their life in protest of war deserves recognition there is no disagreement. The names of the Kent State victims are available and there is a lot of information about the people and events of that day.

Can you find the name of the person that set themselves on fire on Feb. 18, 1991 ?

[skygazer]

3. Interesting that you should bring this up

I recently sent a letter to the editor in reply to a letter sent by another woman who was complaining about activists and extolling troops. An exerpt:

"I would also like to address the quote by Fr. Dennis O’Brien, in which he says among other things, “It is the soldier, not the campus organizer who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.”

Certainly the military are the ones who fight our battles and they are the ones who win our wars. But I would ask Mrs. Allen, who are the people who bring about change?

Who were the Sons of Liberty who threw the tea into Boston Harbor? They weren’t soldiers. They were rabble, radicals, revolutionaries. In truth, they were the original protesters. They were people who saw a need for change and they brought change.

Who were the Founding Fathers, the men who set their names on that blistering letter to King George III that we call the Declaration of Independence? They pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to the cause of liberty in that document and they knew, if their cause was not won, they would be tried and hanged for treason. They didn’t fight the war but they sure started it!

Who freed the slaves? Was it the military? Or was it the overwhelming voice of activists who saw injustice and declared, “no more”? Who pressured and pressured the administration of Abraham Lincoln, who originally vowed he wouldn’t interfere with slavery. Who supported an Underground Railroad, issued newspapers and magazines, held rallies and public protests. Who secured the vote for women, who changed the child labor laws, who began the civil rights movement?

The truth is, activists and the military walk hand in hand, though many don’t see it. Activists serve as our social conscience, bringing attention to issues that demand our attention. Our military men and women put their lives on the line to protect us and our way of life at home and abroad, defending those rights that activists made us see. Why do we need to choose one over the other? Why can we not value them both?

Patriotism is not just waving the flag and saying “God Bless America.” It’s working to keep our country on the path set out by our Founding Fathers 228 years ago. It’s working to keep our place in the world as a moral leader and a force of good. To protest, to be an activist, is one of the oldest, richest traditions in our country, as is serving in the military.

To all those who protest, who let their voices be heard, who care enough to fight for justice, I salute you. And to those who choose to put on the uniform of this country, to serve unselfishly, to fight for me and every other American, I salute you, too. You are all patriots in my eyes."

I realize you're talking specifically about the people who gave their lives for a cause. Yes, they should be recognized, they should be remembered. Absolutely.

[moof]

5. Your post brought to mind JFK's Quote

It seems he thought recognition was important.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind...
War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious
objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior
does today."

Author: John Fitzgerald Kennedy

[Kanary]

8. *Wonderful* quote, moof!

It's been so long, it's hard to remember that this nation *used* to have presidents who appealed to our higher nature, and expressed wisdom.

How far we've sunk.

thank you for this reminder....

Kanary

[Kanary]

9. another quote for you

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels -- men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion."

Dwight David Eisenhower, 34th US President, Republican

[moof]

6. Sorry, double posted.

.

[B Calm]

10. Great letter skygazer

[Kanary]

15. very well written letter, stargazer!

I appreciate the eloquence.

I'm hoping to hear that this was published!

Kanary

[skygazer]

18. Thanks for the kudos

The Eisenhower quote is wonderful. As yet, it has NOT been published but I kept it around because its something I feel deeply about. Our country was founded by those who questioned and agitated not by people who sat back and expected others to do the thinking for them. I'm descended from a signer of the Declaration - I take that as a mandate to carry on that spirit. Democracy is hard work - its not for the faint hearted.

Took me a while to get back to this - I was attempting to get something done around the house but the computer calls me and calls me.......

[jukes]

11. i agree w/ you completely

& think an adjunct to the Wall is called for.

never happen though.

[Kanary]

12. "never happen, though"

You're right, if we wait for "them" to do it, it *won't* happen.

This is something that we, the people, do.

Kanary

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. Quite right. Too often forgotten that democracy is for the people.

The word has been perverted and used to now stand for flagwaving nationalism. Fortunately, in some newly born democracies, it still means something.

[northstar]

19. Democrats must STOP....and STOP RIGHT NOW from

adding that negative edge.

'never happen though.

I'm tired of hearing this negativity and self-defeating language! If you don't have anything positive to say, than say nothing.

[Kanary]

20. Tired of it?

Exit this thread.

Look for the thread in the topics column of the GD forum.

See the little "x" at the end of the subject line?

Click on that "x" and voila! Your problems are solved.

There, wasn't that easy?

Thank you. :)

Kanary

[northstar]

22. Sorry....I edited my message to show the quote I was referring to

(in italics now).

[Rhiannon12866]

24. Welcome to DU, northstar!

Glad to have you with us and all you have to contribute to any discussion!:toast:

[Kanary]

23. It would really be nice if all the controlling behavior would stop

Are you aware that you're coming across really parental?

Do you respond very cheerfully to sharp demands?

I didn't think so.

Again, there are ways to block threads and posters you don't like.

Rather than verbally slap 'em, you might want to consider making it easier on yourself.

Kanary

[Kanary]

21. whoa, moof! All those little lines and categories make me dizzy

:)

It's your topic, and you can divide them as you see fit.

For me, it's all the loss of human life, and they all matter.

I guess I gave up all the fine distinctions a while back, and just try to look at people, and miss the contributions they would have made, and honor them for what they did for their country.

To each their own, eh?

:hippie:

Kanary