Will there be Civil War if the touch screen voting machines

[Toots]

defeat Chavez. They say people have turned out in record numbers to insure Chavez stays in power and that because of such large turnout there is electricity in the air. Everyone knows that Chavez will win handily unless some funny business takes place. Will there be bloodshed or will the people except the results passively? I doubt if Chavez wins there will be any trouble but if he loses I think there will be hell to pay.

[Spiffarino]

1. Are they Diebold machines? n/t

[ParanoidPat]

2. NO, and they print a paper ballot!

:evilgrin: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Table_of_voting_systems_by_nation

According to USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/world/2004-07-12-venezuela-evote_x.htm

A square piece of paper popped out of the computer, a physical
record of his vote. That, Mugica insists, is the system's primary
safeguard against fraud: A paper trail that allows for a recount of
any contested election.
Voters must deposit the slip into a ballot box before they can
retrieve their IDs from polling officials.
The paper trail theoretically spares Smartmatic from a key complaint
about touchscreen machines in the United States. Those machines won't
have paper records in November, although a growing number of U.S.
states will mandate them in future elections.

One to watch.

[Kanary]

5. One question....

I don't know anything about these machines at all, but something jumped at me as I read this.

I thought the "paper ballot" was to be a receipt that the voter would keep. From this, it sounds like they have to put it in a box. (In other words, that there are actually *two* systems at work).

If the results are contested, the voter *still* wouldn't have proof in their own hands of their correct vote, is that right?

Kanary, who's getting dizzy trying to follow all this......:)

[ParanoidPat]

6. Proof in the voters hands means nothing in a recount.......

......the 'proof' of the voters intent is printed on a 'paper ballot' that the voter verifies when they cast their vote. The ballot is then deposited in a locked ballot box under the watchful eyes of members of all parties. I would assume that a small percentage of precincts are randomly hand counted and the results are compared to the printout from the machines. If there is a discrepancy, all of the paper ballots would then be counted. :)

Here in Santa Cruz County we vote on Optical Scan ballots that also have a numbered 'receipt' attached that is torn off by the poll workers and given to you at the time your ballot envelope is deposited in the box. :)

[Kanary]

8. Thanks for the info! I guess I was thinking of my library receipts.

~~gigglesnort~~

I'm used to having to prove things, when machines "go wrong", so as I had been reading about BBV, I guess I put it in the same category, and wanted my own receipt, in my own hand.

I'm not so sure about the concept of putting it in a box... a part of me still doesn't trust that. Maybe because I've had unhappy experiences with the election judges at my precinct many times. However, I certainly haven't studied this to the degree that you have, and if you think that's a good way to go, then my poor tired brain will happily go along with it. :hi:

Thanks for scanning those stubs. I've seen you discuss them, but have never encountered an optical scan, and didn't really know what it was like.

Now I know for sure you're a loyal voter. :hippie:

Kanary, who would now like her graduation certificate from voters school, pleeez. ^_^

[ParanoidPat]

12. You have to read the textbook first!

:kick:BLACK BOX VOTING - Ballot Tampering in the 21st Century:kick:

Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3
Chapter 4
Chapter 5
Chapter 6
Chapter 7
Chapter 8
Chapter 9*
Chapter 10
Chapter 11
Chapter 12
Chapter 13*
Chapter 14
Chapter 15
Chapter 16
Appendix
Footnotes
Index

* graphics, allow time to load

Requires free Adobe Acrobat Reader to view. :)

There's a test in November! :hi:

[Junkdrawer]

10. Two Questions:

1.) Is the "receipt" readily readable - or is it easy to confuse the voter?

2.) Are there spot checks or would the "paper receipts" only be used in case of a court ordered recount?

One of my biggest fears for the Black Box Voting movement is that we will get our "paper receipts", but they will be counted only if the election is extremely close. And if that's the case, all a potential thief need do is steal by a wide enough margin.

[ParanoidPat]

11. If you're asking about Venezuela I don't know the answer......

......but I'll see if I can find their election code in English and find out. If you're asking about our elections I'll refer you to a site that has all of the current election code for each state as they vary widely.

http://www.lawresearch.com/v2/statute/statstate.htm#elections

There has been much consternation over the use of the word 'receipt' with many activists insisting that the term 'ballot' or 'voter verified paper ballot' be used. My personal take on it is that a 'ballot' typically contains all of the candidates names and a mark indicating the voters intent. That allows for the possibility of foul play as additional marks may be added to obscure the voters intent or they may be plagued by mis-registration errors (marks appearing between names etc.) that could call the intent into question.
A 'receipt' on the other hand, would contain only the names that the voter chose. I see it as the difference between a menu at a Chinese restaurant and the bill. :)

To answer your questions as far as our elections are concerned, those areas have not been codified as of yet as Rush Holt's "Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act of 2003" has not been brought up for a vote that I'm aware of.

HR 2239 and it's companion bill, S 1980 both contain the following language to address those issues.

SEC. 4. PROMOTING ACCURACY, INTEGRITY, AND SECURITY THROUGH VOTER-VERIFIED PERMANENT RECORD OR HARD COPY.

(a) IN GENERAL- Section 301(a)(2) of the Help America Vote Act of 2002 (42 U.S.C. 15481(a)(2)) is amended to read as follows:

`(2) VOTER-VERIFICATION AND AUDIT CAPACITY-

`(A) VOTER-VERIFICATION IN GENERAL- The voting system shall produce a voter-verified paper record suitable for a manual audit equivalent or superior to that of a paper ballot box system, as further specified in subparagraph (B).

`(B) MANUAL AUDIT CAPACITY-

`(i) The voting system shall produce a permanent paper record, each individual paper record of which shall be made available for inspection and verification by the voter at the time the vote is cast, and preserved within the polling place in the manner in which all other paper ballots are preserved within the polling place on Election Day for later use in any manual audit.

`(ii) The voting system shall provide the voter with an opportunity to correct any error made by the system before the permanent record is preserved for use in any manual audit.

`(iii) The voter verified paper record produced under subparagraph (A) and this subparagraph shall be available as an official record and shall be the official record used for any recount conducted with respect to any election in which the system is used.

<Snip>

SEC. 7. REQUIREMENT FOR MANDATORY RECOUNTS.

The Election Assistance Commission shall conduct manual mandatory surprise recounts of the voter-verified records of each election for Federal office (and, at the option of the State or jurisdiction involved, of elections for State and local office) in .5 percent of the jurisdictions in each State and .5 percent of the overseas jurisdictions in which voter-verified records are preserved in accordance with this section immediately following each general election for Federal office, and shall promptly publish the results of those recounts. The treatment of the results of the recount shall be governed by applicable Federal, State, or local law, except that any individual who is a citizen of the jurisdiction involved may file an appeal with the Commission if the individual believes that such law does not provide a fair remedy.

I hope that helps answer your questions. :evilgrin:

[Andy_Stephenson]

13. You beat me to it Pat

:hi:

[Barret]

9. Ummm why would you keep it your self?

If the results are contested do you 1. Expect everyone to still have it and return it and 2. For everyone who brings one in to actually bring in a legit one. (or to only bring in one...)

I think after you use an electronic machine it should give you a paper receipt, you look at it to make sure it is right, and then you should be required to put it in the box.

[mountebank]

14. And a take-home receipt would destroy anonymity of voting process.

Not sure if someone else already posted this reason for not wanting take-home copies. Wouldn't want to be caught with lefty receipts when the Bush SS storms the house.....

[Kanary]

15. well, I'm not going to worry about that

If it gets as far as *SS, I'll already be gone anyway.

I guess that's one advantage I have...... if it gets that bad, all the cuts will have wiped me out first, so I won't have to have the worry about Gitmo that you'll have.

See, there's a silver lining to everything. :)

Kanary

[ISUGRADIA]

16. A receipt showing how one voted will never happen

Too easy in some states to lead to vote selling (which already occurs). This also defeats the idea of a secret ballot and could lead to employer or others with power over people to demand to see the receipt to make sure a person has voted the "right way".

In the 19th century in many locals one had to pick out a party ballot and it was easily disernable how one was voting. Workers feared to vote the "wrong way" or they could lose their jobs.

[Kanary]

17. .

[Zorra]

7. Obviously, the Government of Venezuela is more concerned about

protecting their democracy and the integrity of their electoral process than the Bu$h administration is concerned about protecting ours.

Personally, I have zero confidence in the ability of electronic voting devices to accurately record my vote. I refuse to use them, and am voting absentee.

However, a paper receipt, used for auditing purposes which indicates that a machine actually may have recorded my vote accurately, would give me more confidence in electronic voting.

But Canada uses paper and pencil to cast ballots very satisfactorally and successfully.

The US should do the same.

[Dob Bole]

3. What? Venezuela gets paper ballots, and we don't?

*pinches self*

[Tosca]

4. Banana Republic, si or no?