TRUTH about FLORIDA; HUNDREDS MISSING, JEB CHENEYED UP!

[Dems Will Win]

Charley's charge: hundreds missing

By MICHAEL VASQUEZ in Punta Gorda

From Australia:

August 16, 2004

RESCUE teams began clawing through the wreckage of thousands of homes yesterday in the hope of finding survivors after hurricane Charley left a 320km trail of devastation across Florida.


At least 16 people are dead but officials said hundreds of people were still missing. Tens of thousands are homeless.

At the Lazy Lagoon Mobile Park in Punta Gorda – the epicentre of the destruction – bodies littered the streets.


Twenty-five officers were searching for missing people, and a dog trained to find hidden corpses was brought in. Many mobile homes were reduced to piles of matchwood and twisted aluminium.

-snip-

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1268&storyid=1780686

They are not reporting hundreds missing on the news to protect Jeb, who didn't push to evacuate the whole west coast.

[unfrigginreal]

1. Jesus, I hope that's wrong.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. No. It's true and in a lot of wire stories now. eom

[unfrigginreal]

48. Unbelievable

It's getting near to a time that we're going to have to hold congressional investigations into the abuse of the airwaves that we've given the press. I can't believe we haven't already heard about this and I have CNN on now and they're still not reporting it.

[seabeyond]

56. i heard this info, what saturday morning

and havent watched news so was wondering where death was at. couldnt believe friend so wrong, yet not hearing more than 4, 20?????????and have been in question. yes to media not putting on. gonna check thread to see if i just missed it in media. if not..........

shame

[Scairp]

74. I heard about missing, not accounted for

But they also said lots of people left and they don't know who fled the area and who stayed. If this is true, that they didn't evacuate and now cannot be found.... It's not some third world country we are talking about here. If hundreds are really missing or dead then someone ought to know by now.

[KittyWampus]

72. There Have Been Intimations-Stories About Morticians &

refridgerator trucks being sent in.

[murray hill farm]

79. Might be wrong..might be correct!

I lived in Florida for many, many years. At this point, missing is just those who cant be accounted for today...many and most of those "missing" are just those who have evacuated and have not yet returned. when you evacuate, you don't have the time or inclination to report your destination to those who might need to know after the fact...such as the police or the red cross or the govt...there is not the time or the immediate thought about such things. the immediate thought is just to "get". My experience in living along the Atlantic coast of Florida is that those in charge do everything and more to get you out of the area..to warn you of the consequences of staying..and to try to get your name, etc. if you stay...but no one is cooperative about the name thing..ha! I will tell you that some of the best parties i have ever had the pleasure of attending were "hurricane parties". Stlll..the police come and beg you to leave, but most of the "red necks" have neither the money or the inclination to leave...then the police ask for your nearest relative to inform if you are killed by the storm...we used to say..hey, we are Florida rednecks...and we are all related to each other..hehehehe! Then we used to ask the police to stay and party with us..some actually returned later to do just that. I am not making light of what has happened, just to point out that there are real people living in Florida and people who have lived their all of their lives and their parents and parents livews...people who know that hurricanes happen and still stay in their homeland...and who do look after the folks who come from the north to retire there. This is not just a political black or white...and should not be used by anyone...not even us..to try to make it a political score. It is easy for the re pukes to use this...and they do...let us not scrape the bottom to do the same. These are people who have experienced a very difficult disaster...send them your best wishes, your help or your prayers...but don't use this...please.

[Bluebear]

80. It's not using it, it's getting the truth for once

[Susang]

103. Hi Mexicoxpat!

I'm with you on this one, particularly after spending some time in Cocoa Beach during hurricane season.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[meegbear]

2. If it was Gov. Jeb Gore ...

this would be frontpage news all over the country.

[Hippo_Tron]

101. Or hell, Governor McGreevey for that matter

I've seen quite a bit on CNN about that guy.

[Kool Kitty]

110. Oh, yeah.

McGreevy has become this week's Scott Peterson.

[Mistress Quickly]

3. You know

I hate this politicizing of the hurricane. Maybe they aren't reporting hundreds missing as to not FREAK THE HELL OUT OF FAMILY MEMBERS!

Maybe because they arematching names up with shelter lists.

This is the epitome of ridiculous. Trying to make this political. Yikes. Take a deep breath and step back for a minute.

[Eloriel]

9. Reporting it in the news would HELP match up the names

why are you wanting to protect Jeb?

And let's get something straight: the weather forecasts were not political; the decisions about who and when to evacuate WERE most definitely made by political, highly partisan people (Jeb and his administration). If there is incompetence, malfeasance, or just general fuck-ups, that makes it a political problem. You're suggesting instead that Jeb should be protected from "political" accountability. I call bullshit on that.

[Mistress Quickly]

19. People were warned

please see my post #17.

And no, I'm not wanting to protect Jeb, thanks.

I'm trying to disassociate politics with natural disasters. Next thing I know, it'll be blamed on the secret hurricane machine, all for Florida's electoral votes. Didn't the hurricane come right after the poll showed Kerry was in the lead by 6 in FL?

:tinfoilhat:

[Cheswick2.0]

39. If Jeb is incompetent and HE IS, then people should be able to say so

don't pull the tin foil hat crap on people just because they have an opinion. No one is saying he caused the hurricane, so don't even bother going there.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

64. HELLO! The family members are already freaked out. What freaks us out

is not being told the truth...

[jdj]

104. Reporters don't care about family members. Never have, never

will.

I find it easy to believe that the numbers are wrong.

I followed this hurricane for two days on the weather channel, if people will remember, it was supposed to hit TAMPA as a cat. 2, maybe cat. 3, INSTEAD it made turned due east suddenly and hit Punta Gorda as a CAT 4. The coverage of these trailer parks with these elderly residents...the damage rivals Andrew in some locations, and these are old, helpless people.

I have been incredulous that they are only saying 16 fatalities. If that's true, then praise the Lord in heaven, but with several HOSPITALS having to have been evacuated I don't see how.

Did anyone think that maybe crooked thug Jeb is trying to bleed off federal money being sent there as a favor to Bush by keeping the DT low, or trying to keep the numbers of guard low, because all the guard are in Iraq. The Lt. Gov was just on the tube, saying more people die after a storm than during.

If the thugs are doing something funky for $$$ reasons or whatever, dems NEED to shine a light on it so people get the assistance and justice they deserve, because repukes sure aren't going to call out Big Brother.

[gasperc]

4. the landfall point was well within the probability zone

it seems to me they relied to heavily on the most likely path and not take into account the whole probability picture. Bush's rapid stop is starting to look more like a cover for a major policy gaffe of focusing on Tampa which barely got showers that night. Many people are complaining of getting zero warning to leave, let alone board up their businesses as a precaution, multiplying the devastation 10 fold.

[Mistress Quickly]

17. no, they were warned Thursday or before

THURSDAY
Charley loomed, however, prompting evacuation orders along coastal areas from the Florida Keys to Tampa Bay.
http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=70065

THURSDAY
For Charlie, hurricane warnings and watches were posted for the Keys and the state's southwest coast.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/weather/apress_081204_tropicalstorm.html

SATURDAY
CBS News Correspondent James Acosta says what's lost in all the destruction is why so many people stayed behind and did not heed storm warnings.
http://wcco.com/topstories/topstories_story_224093855.html

WEDNESDAY
It's that snaking line in the center of the National Hurricane Center's "cone of probability" that shows the most likely path of a storm. Most likely, but not guaranteed. That's why the cone is there.

People watching the trek of now-Hurricane Charley on Wednesday followed that little skinny line toward western Cuba, the lower Keys, and eventually Port Charlotte, then at an angle toward the Space Coast and out to sea -- as in missing Palm Beach County and the Treasure Coast. But surrounding the line is that big cone, and as of late Wednesday, all of peninsular Florida was in that range.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/auto/epaper/editions/thursday/news_14a1cd3fa1e6d19c00c3.html

THURSDAY
On the southwest coast, Collier County officials requested voluntary evacuation of residents and tourists in coastal areas.

Neighboring Lee County also warned people to consider leaving.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/auto/epaper/editions/thursday/news_14a19e5ea1e611b900b6.html



People were warned and told to evacuate. They chose not to, or the ones I feel bad for, they couldn't.

But I doubt hundreds are dead. You can come back at me if I'm wrong, but the death toll won't go over 50, tops.

Probably more like 25.

And yes, I do feel bad for each one.

[Eloriel]

38. You're wrong, I'm pretty sure

It's my understanding Tampa was told to evacuate (mandatory), NOT Punta Gorde and Port Charlotte. This was based on the projected landfall before the hurricane made its precipitous turn, and also strengthened somewhat suddenly and apparently unexpectedly.

The whole thing was treated by Jeb NOT with an overabundance of caution (as most truly concerned officials would do, I think), but with a minimalist approach to making sure people were safe. It backfired on him.

And IMO James Acosta's blaming the victims (and protecting Jeb Bush) doesn't wash if they weren't being told to evacuate in what became the eventual landfall area, and they weren't. Not until it was too late.

[Mistress Quickly]

40. So you are replying to my post

showing where they were warning people, but simply stating I was wrong? Did you read all the posts in the thread?

[Cheswick2.0]

42. I was in florida for Andrew

nothing like this happened. People in mobile homes were ordered to evacuate as soon as it was clear that Andrew was hitting farther south than originally believed.

Jeb screwed up.

[Brotherjohn]

49. There was simply not enough time. Much as I'd like to see jeb and bro...

... frog-marched out of their respective offices, Jeb is not to blame for anything here.

A notice to evacuate has to be given at least a day in advance, and cannot be given for the entire potential strike range of a hurricane. It is an extreme measure saved for those thought to be in the direct path. If every town within the predicted "cone" of lanfall (Keys to Big Bend area) had gotten in their cars and evacuated a day before landfall, most would have been stuck on the highway when the storm struck (if there even would have been a hotel room available wherever they were going).

I was "surprised" (my own fault) when Opal struck 40 miles east of me, and I chose to evacuate at the last minute (several hours before landfall). Due to my creative, backroads driving, I only spent 9 hours making the 3.5 hr drive to New Orleans, and only had to put up with 50mph winds in my car. I-65 going north was at a bumper to bumper standstill. Thousands were stuck in their cars and rode the storm out on the highway, only to return to the relative safety of their homes once they were able.

In this case, even with just the Tampa evac order, every hotel room in Orlando was booked up. That's 60 miles inland in a city with as many hotel rooms as any in the country.

Charley took a slight jog to the south (which, at the sharp angle of its approach, meant a relatively large distance on the coast), only a few hours before they were still predicting Tampa landfall. Nevertheless, the prediction also had Punta Gorda solidly within the "cone". The people in Punta Gorda knew they were at risk of a direct hit. If they chose not to evacuate, they were gambling. People who live in a hurricane zone know the risks. I sympathize with them as one who has been through the same thing, and one whose family has lost home in a hurricane.

[jdj]

107. It was a cat. 2 then.

Nobody predicted a Cat. 4 hurricane to hit Punta Gorda. No one in their right mind would have stayed in this case.

It may exonerate Jeb that the hurricane gained so much strength so late, but if the man knows he's got alot of ELDERLY RETIREES living in TRAILER PARKS on the COAST, perhaps he should have taken that into consideration.

[Kool Kitty]

112. When the Weather Channel shows the projected path

of a hurricane, they don't just show one little narrow spot. They show all the different ways the storm could turn and the area where they believe that the storm may make landfall is usually wide. They were reporting that the experts believed that the storm was going to strengthen when it went over the water again (after it rolled over Cuba). Why didn't they try to evacuate a wider area? (Although it is easy for me to ask that question, after the storm is over. So I'm probably not being fair to the authorities in Florida.)

[jdj]

105. Let's go back just a few years to Floyd.

Gov. Hodges (SC) made the mistake of not opening up both sides of the interstate up to evacuation traffic, resulting in thousands of people being trapped in their cars for 12-14 hours at a time.

It was a disaster and they raked his ASS over the coals for it,for months.

If Jeb screwed up, he needs his ass raked too. Why does the fact that his brother is president exempt him from ass-raking. I don't know why people are assuming that all the dead folks and their relatives are partisan democrats.

[Rainbowreflect]

41. My coworker's son lives in Punta Gorde.

The were notified to evacuate less than 2 hours before Charley hit. They were lucky, but most of their neighbors were not.

[Brotherjohn]

53. That notification was irresponsible. It was too late by then.

At best it was a late attempt at trying to convince people who should have already left to leave.

But people trying to evacuate then would be likely stuck outside in the worst of the storm. While a mandatory evacuation may have been ordered then, suggestions to evacuate (especially if you lived in a mobile home) were put out MUCH earlier. See my other posts (#49 & #51) above for my reasons why you can't order mandatory evacuations everywhere. They're only guessing where the storm's center will hit, and it's hardly a perfect science. But if you're in the projected "cone" of where it might hit, you're taking your chances if you do not evacuate to a safer place (especially if you're right on the coast and especially if you're in an unsound structure such as a mobile home).

People in hurricane zones know this, or if they don't, then they should. It is not possible to educate the entire populace on storm safety the morning a storm hits.

[Eloriel]

85. It was irresponsible not to strongly encourage evacuation in P.G.

in the first place, as well as slightly north of Tampa/St. Pete. And nothing I saw in the 2 days lead-up (Thurs and Fri) mentioned ANYthing about Punta Gorda folks needing to be the least little teensy bit concerned. THAT's what was irresponsible. With all the drama that the news outfits like to treat such subjects, it surely couldn't have been just their oversight in not mentioning P.G. and P.C. IMO Jeb was probably trying to do this "on the cheap" and he got caught with its pants down, and apparently a lot of people dead.

I hope the truth comes out.

[jdj]

108. A hurricane hadn't hit here in 40 years.

Most of these folks had relocated here upon retirement.

Many, many people who won't evac. for a cat. 2 WILL for a cat.4.
The last projection I heard was that this could possibly hit,maybe, as a cat. 3.

When you research hurricanes it is pretty amazing how much the dt has dropped since the 30's, back then it was at least 200 or 300 fatality minimum. But with the early warnings that has been decimated. I hope folks will learn from this, and honestly, the strength of the structures in a community needs to be taken into account when declaring evacuations, communities with alot of trailer parks should go on mandatory evac sooner, maybe, than communities with all brick homes.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

68. Us Floridians were told over and over again is was going to hit TAMPA.

The people they interviewed in Pt. Charlotte said that's why they didn't leave.

Only people who lived right near the Gulf were evacuated. The rest of us were not evacuated.

[Birthmark]

87. I don't know about the death toll,

but you are correct about the warnings, of course. Even though the storm was forecast to pass well to the west of me, I noticed that I was never out of the margin of error and took the appropriate precautions. Good thing, too, since the eye passed over me. Fortunately, the sustained winds were 85mph by that point. Nothing compared to what those in Punta Gorda had to endure.

I'm certainly no fan of Jeb, but I think that he's clean on this one.

[SW FL Dem]

91. I agree with you.

I've been saying the same thing for the past day or two. I watched this storm develop. It caught even the experts by surprise. I am deeply troubled by efforts to politicize this disaster from either side.

[Birthmark]

93. Ack! SW FL?!

I'm way up in Volusia County and we got pounded...after Charley had traveled a couple of hundred miles over land. I just saw my first pictures from Punta Gorda tonight, when the power came back on. Did you evacuate, or did you ride out the storm there?

And, yeah, politicizing something like this is disgusting.

[SW FL Dem]

98. We didn't evacuate because we didn't think we needed to

Charley was a 2 and we live in a area that is okay through a 3 (12 ft) and we are in Naples (150 miles south of Tampa). By the time Charley was a 3, it was too late to leave so we hunkered down and held our breath. As Charley passed just 20 miles to our west, it was upgraded to a 4. We truly lucked out.

I just wish that the posters who try to politicize this would listen to those of us who went through it.

[Birthmark]

116. Holy crap!

I gotta tell you, when Charley went from a 2 to a 4 that quick - and changed direction - I about...well, you know. We hunkered down in our interior bathroom when Charley approached and waited it out. It only lasted about 90 minutes here. It really wasn't THAT bad since we were set up pretty well. I can't imagine how nasty that must have been for you.

I wish those that are trying to politicize this would listen as well. They are both factually and morally wrong and cannot help their own cause with unfounded allegations.

[peacetalksforall]

5. From Australia? A foreign reporter with a Spanish name is

reporting this for the dailytelegraph and all I see and hear from our big three propaganda machine screens is home and business debris and utility problems. I feel a disconnect. Maybe I'm not getting enough TV into my schedule. Bodies littered the streets? Where am I?

[samplegirl]

14. I agree

I have'nt seen much televised on the casulities. Why is we are always the last to get the real news.........unless it Bush Photo-Op?

[Cha]

82. This rings a bell! No real news except a bush

PHOTO OP!

Many of us today joined in a mass calling, faxing and e-mailing to cnn ..to protest their bad reporting and news bias.

See thread in GD! And we're just getting started!

[Bluzmann57]

6. Very very sad

This is a case where politics should play no role whatsoever. The people affected by this need help and are getting it. I noticed that at least one person kept their sense of humor and spelled out "send beer". Maybe we should send beer. These people could use some relief.

[drdigi420]

28. beer would make things worse, send weed instead

[Cha]

83. Water would be better!

And batteries.

[jmcgowanjm]

7. Insurance Co's don't pay on missing

Charley's next surprise-

Homeowners with property worth $100,000 or more must
pay
2 percent of their home's value before insurance
coverage
kicks in.

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040815/NEWS/408150447/1039

[dyersville]

31. Ya see

An insurance policy is a contract between two consenting parties. SOO,,if that is what the contract states that you signed, that is the limitaions of YOUR policy. The fact is, Not a single entity is required to even offer insurance.

Your bitch is??

[jmcgowanjm]

65. People are strapped/ Another loan does these folks 0 n/t

[SW FL Dem]

92. If you live in a coastal area in Fl

You are lucky to get a policy with a 2% deductible.

[rocktivity]

8. Did he have the National Guard and shelters to evacuate if he wanted to?

According to this DU thread, there wasn't anywhere to put the Punta Gorda people because there was no funding for shelters. And we ALL know what the state National Guard is doing!

In all fairness, WAS the storm expected to track over that area? If it changed course, that's certainly not Jeb's fault. But if there's reason to belive Punta Gorda WAS in the storm track and should have been evacuated, Jeb does indeed have some explaining to do.

:headbang:
rocknation

[jmcgowanjm]

20. I'm a Hurricane Watcher and you could see it wasn't

going to hit Tampa just after it passed Key West.

Then it went from Cat 2 to Cat 4 in an hour.

There was no time to put out warnings. People were told
it's better to be in any shelter than get caught on a causeway.

People had even evaced to this area from Tampa.

We'll see in the near future large columns of smoke
and masks. The smell will be worse
than a factory pig farm.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

22. The increase in intensity should have been forseen

The warm Gulf Waters ALWAYS add strength. WTF were they thinking?

[Brotherjohn]

27. It was. They're not psychic, for goodness sake, but read the advisories:

The last one from Thursday, the day before it struck:
(http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2004/pub/al032004.public.015.shtml; my emphasis added)

ZCZC MIATCPAT3 ALL
TTAA00 KNHC DDHHMM
BULLETIN
HURRICANE CHARLEY ADVISORY NUMBER 15
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL
11 PM EDT THU AUG 12 2004

...CHARLEY BECOMING BETTER ORGANIZED AS IT APPROACHES WESTERN
CUBA...

AT 11 PM EDT...0300Z...THE HURRICANE WARNING IS EXTENDED NORTHWARD ALONG THE FLORIDA WEST COAST TO THE MOUTH OF THE SUWANNEE RIVER. A HURRICANE WARNING IS NOW IN EFFECT FOR THE FLORIDA KEYS FROM THE DRY TORTUGAS TO THE SEVEN MILE BRIDGE...AND FOR THE FLORIDA WEST COAST FROM EAST CAPE SABLE NORTHWARD TO THE MOUTH OF THE SUWANNEE RIVER. A HURRICANE WARNING MEANS THAT HURRICANE CONDITIONS ARE EXPECTED WITHIN THE WARNING AREA DURING THE NEXT 24 HOURS. PREPARATIONS SHOULD BE RUSHED TO COMPLETION.

CHARLEY IS MOVING TOWARD THE NORTH-NORTHWEST NEAR 14 MPH...22 KM/HR.
A TURN TOWARD THE NORTH IS EXPECTED LATER TONIGHT OR FRIDAY. THIS MOTION SHOULD BRING THE CENTER OF CHARLEY NEAR HAVANA IN THE NEXT FEW HOURS...THEN ACROSS THE SOUTHEASTERN GULF OF MEXICO TOWARD THE FLORIDA WEST COAST LATER FRIDAY.

MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS ARE NEAR 105 MPH...165 KM/HR...WITH HIGHER GUSTS. THIS MAKES CHARLEY A CATEGORY TWO HURRICANE ON THE
SAFFIR-SIMPSON HURRICANE SCALE. SOME STRENGTHENING IS FORECAST DURING THE NEXT 24 HOURS...AND CHARLEY IS FORECAST TO BE A MAJOR HURRICANE AS IT APPROACHES THE FLORIDA WEST COAST.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

37. And just 6 hours later

MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS HAVE INCREASED TO NEAR 110 MPH...175
KM/HR...WITH HIGHER GUSTS. SOME STRENGHTENING IS POSSIBLE AND
CHARLEY IS FORECAST TO BE A MAJOR HURRICANE AS IT APPROACHES THE
FLORIDA WEST COAST.... (with pressure at) 970 MB...28.64 INCHES.

6 hours after that: Similar wind conditions but pressure had dropped to 965 MB...28.49 INCHES

2 PM Fri: MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS HAVE INCREASED TO NEAR 145 MPH ... ESTIMATED MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE IS 954 MB...28.17 INCHES.

That last reading was 2 or 3 hours from landfall.

[Cha]

84. Yes, rocknation, shelters are du riguer in

Hurricane Country.

[markus]

10. People who live in a hurricane track are also responsible for themselves

I'm a sailor, and I participate in an on-line forum with a lot of active Florida participants.

Several people on the forum where I mostly hang out live on the Florida gulf coast, and two in the direct path.

They knew they were under threat, and were planning to bug out. We haven't heard from one fellow who lives in Punta Gorda yet, but pray he's OK. One of his last messages was he was going to leave if it went Cat-3, and it went to Cat-4 before it hit the coast.

Re: Jeb Bush. I want to see him and his entire family fall. But if you live in a dangerous weather environment, you have some personal responsiblity.

If you get killed videotaping the tornado that's about to hit your hosue, whose fault is that? If you walk out to the store for a quart of milk in a dangerous blizzard, whose fault is that?

Now, if the warnings were deficient, or the response is deficient, that's fair game.

But this is the last part of the Gulf Coast without a severe storm in living memory. And they've been saying forever that all of these inmigrants to the southern coast need to undersatnd just what a hurricane means, and act accordingly.

[jmcgowanjm]

24. That's right& I've always thought about boats and planes

If you can't get $50-100k boats/planes out of
harm's way, you've got too many toys.

[jdj]

111. What about the retirees?

Evacuating is a HUGE endeavor for these folks, and they aren't going to do it unless absolutely necessary.

They also are generally not getting their Hurricane info from the noaa website.

They're getting from the tube, and the weather channel, that didn't put them in the path, and didn't predict a cat.4 until it was too late.

[G_j]

11. reported in the UK

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14532100&method=full&siteid=86024&headline=killer-charley-name_page.html

KILLER CHARLEY STORM WREAKS HAVOC IN FLORIDA #2.4m flee hurricane #Hundreds feared dead #25,000 Scots are left stranded

By Norman Silvetser

HUNDREDS were feared dead yesterday as Hurricane Charley devastated Florida in one of the US's worst natural disasters.

<snip>

[johnfunk]

12. Miserable failure, unacceptable failure...

... impeachable failure, indictable failure.

Imagine that: more dead in one day than in Snippy W. Bunnypants' entire Texacution Governorship -- all because his dumbass brother didn't plan properly, and because Florida guardsmen and reserves are all outr of the country due to the Bush Saddam feud.

As legendary fictitious Florida entrepreneur Tony Montana might've said, "F$#@ the f$#@ing Bush Brothers." Put 'em in the dock, then throw 'em in Supermax and throw away the key.

[dyersville]

13. Seems that the TODAY SHOW

didn't get the message from the repugs, they were reporting this word for word.

Guess we will have to search elsewhere for a conspiracy theory

[Jo March]

16. Welcome to DU, dyersville!

Welcome! It's nice to have you here.

:hi:

[Dems Will Win]

34. Bet they shut up of TODAY by TOMORROW!

Just a mistake....

Nothing to see here, move on...

[Jokinomx]

62. Welcome to the DU dyersville

Hope to see many more posts in the future...:-)

:dem:


My feelings so far... after reading all the posts...I don't blame
jeb * yet... We all feel that the government is always going to protect us... but they don't. This is one case that caught the experts by surprize.... and sorry to say... people suffer.

I hear now that there is a shortage of food and water... why haven't people in all areas prepared for an emergency. Especially the areas that have a high probability of a great natural disaster. It is only a matter of time that a hurricane will hit a town along the Florida coast... why hasn't there been a massive push by our government to get people to have food and water stored safely away for the next big one. I think it is a logical thing to do...

That is my humble opinion...

[Eloriel]

86. People DO have the right to expect the government to

properly warn them. Warning is different from "protection."

[shanti]

109. chimpy and his gang

haven't been doing a very good job of warning us, have they? :eyes:

[bluedog]

18. listen up

all week we wre told its headed to Tampa Bay area...as early as Thursday people started getting out.......

One Local station said it was taking the path of Donna.........well if anybody would have paid attention Donna hit in the Fort Meyers Area and through to Daytona.........this whole coastline should have gotten out ......many of our people went into the path of the hurricane......

[Eloriel]

45. Exact.ly -- as I watched the MSNBC/CNN coverage, it was ALL

focused on Tampa with a BIG shrug of the shoulders for all points both north and south of Tampa/St. Pete.

Yet we saw from the actual hurricane alerts posted above that the hurricane forecasters were a LOT more circumspect than FL officials were in saying exactly where it would land. AND they also warned Charley was likely to strengthen.

So, who fucked up here? We also heard on TV that many Tampa residents had gone down TO Punta Gorda/Port Charlotte. So who fucked up with that? Wasn't it absolute folly (or criminal neglect/stupidity) to leave people with the impression that heading south would be a GOOD idea? Who fucked up there?

NOT the hurricane foreasters, that's clear at least to me. They're not responsible for evacuation orders or any r aspect of this tragedy other than tracking the hurricane and predicting its WIDE possible path.

Edited to add just to emphasize the point: From ALL the TV-watching I did during the lead-up to the storm's landfall, the ONLY area encouraged to evacuate was the Tampa-St. Pete area. How stupid is that?

[Brotherjohn]

51. You can't just evacuate everywhere. See my post #49 above...

... which is partially in response to yours above.

The day before (hell, early the morning of!) Charley, Tampa was still at the center of the predicted path.

Again, you cannot evacuate the entire predicted path of a hurricane. It is impossible. And you certainly cannot do so the day of the storm.

Ordering an evacuation of Tampa is no small thing. You don't order mandatory evacuations lightly. At the time an evacuation was still possible, Tampa was at the most risk (as far as being in the center of the predicted track). Not to mention, there are millions more people in the Tampa/St. Pete area at risk.

You say:
"So, who fucked up here? We also heard on TV that many Tampa residents had gone down TO Punta Gorda/Port Charlotte. So who fucked up with that? Wasn't it absolute folly (or criminal neglect/stupidity) to leave people with the impression that heading south would be a GOOD idea? Who fucked up there?"

In answer, I would say, it is "absolute folly" to evacuate to a spot 100 miles down the coast, ON the coast, which is still in the forecasted path of the hurricane. You go INLAND, and you DON'T go to somewhere else that is also a likely target. If you don't do that, you're simply being stupid.

I watched this storm like a hawk (I was at risk earlier, from it and Bonnie). I recall at no point whatsoever anyone giving anyone else the impression that heading south from Tampa was a good idea, or that anywhere north of the Keys was in any way safe. In fact, the morning of the storm, everyone seemed as concerned about Ft. Meyers (which is SOUTH of Punta Gorda) as they were about Tampa. In other words, everyone who lived there knew that the entire coast from north of Tampa down to the Keys was at real risk.

Loathe as I am to defend Jeb Bush, when state officials take drastic, concrete actions like order an evacuation, and they can only do such things in a limited area. The night before the storm (after the Tampa evac was ordered), I recall Jeb saying (rightly) that if you had not already evacuated, then you should stay put. I also recall communities on the coast (down to Ft. Meyers) being told to evacuate as well before then. The people in Punta Gorda had also been told to evacuate.

Again, I sympathize with these people and I myself hate Jeb. But if anywhere needed an evacuation order, it was the Tampa area. By the time the storm jogged south, it was too late to evacuate any other areas. The people there had plenty of notice and had the choice to evacuate. But it is simply not possible to order a mandatory evacuation of the entire Florida west coast. And it is simply not possible to predict hurricanes accurately enough to be perfect in giving evacuation orders in only the immediate area that is going to be struck.

[barbaraann]

52. So...

Because no one can be "perfect in giving evacuation orders" Jeb is off the hook for any blame whatsoever in how he handled this hurricane? I totally and utterly disagree with you. NO ONE on this board is saying that we expected Jeb Bush to be "perfect"--that is a worthless straw man argument. What many of us believe is that he failed to do an ADEQUATE job, not that he failed to do a PERFECT job.

[Brotherjohn]

54. I am replying specifically to the opinions that he screwed up by...

... concentrating evacuation efforts on the Tampa area. That is where it seems most of the criticism of Jeb lies. That criticism, I believe, is wrong. Saying so is not a "straw man" argument.

I know people are not saying they expected Bush to be "perfect". But much of the criticism is saying he should have been "more precise" (if not "perfect") in ordering evacuations. Given what we knew up to the evening before the storm, Tampa was the area most susceptible, and most meriting a mandatory evacuation. It was also the area that would have required the most notice and preparation in case of a direct hit (due to the large population). Evacuations were ordered (mandatory and suggested) from Tampa down to the Florida Keys. Anyone who lives in a hurricane zone knows that if it is suggested you evacuate and you don't, you are gambling with your life.

No, he is not totally off the hook. But I see nothing so far, as one who has lived though many hurricanes, that indicates the response was botched. From everything I have seen so far, the job has been "adequate" (and I really despise Bush). This was simply a very strong storm, and we are not perfect in predicting them, and even if we were, a 145mph storm is going to cause great death and destruction when striking a populated area.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

55. Let's see how well they do in resuce efforts.

I'm sure there are a lot of people buried alive (or dead). We'll see.

[Eloriel]

90. I'd like to see some of the

suggestions for others (P.G. esp.) to evacuate. As I said, I didn't hear word one about that for the 2 days I was watching coverage on cable. Got any links?

[SW FL Dem]

97. I saw them on local tv

The hurricane warnings are issued by the National Hurricane Center and decisions to evacuate are made by local officials. Evacuation orders are not necessarily national news. Did you hear that all coastal areas from the Keys to north of Tampa were under mandatory evacuation orders?

[SW FL Dem]

96. Great post

I too was in the potential path and watched Charley like a hawk. I have never seen a hurricane go from a 2 to a 4 in an hour or so. Noone could have predicted this. I have no respect for Jeb, but I am really bothered by all the attempts to politicize this disaster.

[Cha]

88. I was in one hurricane on Kauai in '92 and

it was a cat 5 and there weren't any deaths that I know of.

We were all fortunate And a lot of people went to shelters.

It seems as though if those people in Punta Gorda had shelters to go to they would have been a lot better off.

I would think it's the govenor of Florida's job to see to it that the citizens are safe as they can be from a natual disaster when there is information coming in advance regarding a hurricane. I understand that Charley changed course at the last minute..but so did the hurricane Iniki in '92. We were prepared as well as we could be just in case.

[SW FL Dem]

94. Your facts are incorrect

There were mandatory evacuations along the coast from the Keys to well north of Tampa. That national news didn't cover all the details

[LynneSin]

21. I think the reason so many folks are 'missing'

is because the various rescue shelters have no way of keeping in touch with each other due to power outages and Cell lines down.

I think another poster mentioned that we shouldn't try to politicize this until we give the state some time to get communications back up and get an updated missing lists that reflects information from all rescue shelters.

[Brotherjohn]

23. You are all politicizing this too much. As an experienced hurricane...

... survivor (Betsy, Camille, Andrew, Opal), I have the following repsonses to some of the above posts.

1) The high "missing" number is most likely due to the fact that in these retirement home trailer park areas like the ones in Punta Gorda, there is sometimes only a 30% occupancy rate (especially in the warm months). They are simply not sure which trailers were occupied and which were vacant. Plus, as someone above points out, many are still in shelters and need to be tracked down.

2) 2% of the home's cost? It's called a "deductible".

3) Regarding the idea that people and/or authorities were unprepared because they put all their resources and warning to Tampa because it was in the center of the projected path, that is nonsense. This perception no doubt comes from the countless national talking heads asking idiotic questions like "how could you be so surprised" and "whay was the forecast so wrong?"

As one with much experience living on the Gulf Coast who has tracked many a hurricane, let me tell you that VERY few people in Punta Gorda/Port Charlotte were "surprised". They were may have been "hopeful", before the storm, that Charley would keep in the center of the projected path. But they knew if that happened, they would be dodging a bullet. Everyone with any intelligence at all knows these projections are estimates, and that hurricanes can change direction on a moment's notice.

And this "change" was not even a big one. The sharp angle at which Charley was approaching the coast meant that a couple of degree change would translate to a hundred miles down the coast. Everyone from the Keys up to Big Bend were battening down the hatches expecting the worst.

[Mistress Quickly]

25. You're right about the talking heads:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040814/D84F9A8G2.html
snip>>>
All along, the hurricane center had issued warnings for coastal residents from the Keys all the way up to Tampa Bay, said hurricane center meteorologist Robbie Berg.

"We're kind of surprised that people were caught by surprise," he said.

Although Charley's path had the storm heading toward the Tampa area, Berg said the warning swath encompassed a much larger area - as far south as Punta Gorda, in fact. The swath takes into account any errors, he said.

"We were not saying Tampa. We were saying the west coast of Florida," Berg said. The media's fixation with "Tampa, Tampa, Tampa," gave the public the wrong idea, he noted.

Everyone had "ample warning," Berg said. "It's just unfortunate that certain people didn't evacuate."

<<<end snip

AHA! The inept media strikes again!!

[Eloriel]

47. Yeah, and exactly where did the media GET their fixation w/Tampa?

Think it could've been from the state officials who ordered evacuation there and there alone, and NOT further south (like Punta Gorda and Port Charlotte) or even north?

Edited to add: And as for Brotherjohn's insistance that EVERYBODY in FL knows to batten down the hatches all along the coast, bullshit on that too. If you've got a lot of retirees in mobile homes who are not FL natives or long-time residents, they're not GOING to have the same sensibilities others have.

Not only that, but my brother lived in FL (Homestead area) for a few years and he said some of those people who are longtime residents are nuts thinking they can ride out a hurricane (of course Andrew may have changed some of their minds in the meantime).

AND I myself saw an interview conducted not long before landfall (and IIRC after the hurricane had made its turn) with a young native of FL probably in his early 20s IN the Port Charlotte area. He had his surfboard with him and did not intend to evacuate but rather stay on the beach during the hurricane. Handsome young fella, kinda JFKjr-esque. I hope he either got real smart real quick, or got scared enough in time enough to find some more suitable place to enjoy his first hurricane.

[SW FL Dem]

99. I have only lived in FL for 5 years

I am a newbie when it comes to hurricanes, but I do know that the evacuation orders are issued on a local basis based on information provided by the National Hurricane Center. There were evacuations ordered from the Keys to north of Tampa.

The warnings were clear, on tv, radio and in the newspapers. Most of the west coast of Florida was under a hurricane warning. Residents made their own decisions based on the best information available to them from their local meteorologists and the National Hurricane Center.

[jmcgowanjm]

29. Uh, NatGuard buddy did Camille. He told me about bodybags

by the 100's that were never counted.

As a matter of fact, I can trace alot of my cynicism
on reporting to Camille.

Andrew's Homestead 100's not accounted for.

Yes, the Weatherwise always have an advantage.
But 80% of folks just don't have a clue/and/or
trust law enforcement to take care of them.

[Mistress Quickly]

33. So those people

had no relatives or friends, and they just "disappeared?" And noone has come forward, and no media has caught on or anything?

:eyes: :tinfoilhat:

[dmr]

71. I can answer that question with first hand knowledge

I was down in deep south Dade County.

Two days after Hurricane Andrew struck, I went down on official business, escorted by Metro-Dade police (now called Miami-Dade police) because ... I was going to post why I was there, but that would reveal too much. If it matters, I'll tell you in a PM.

Lined up on the ground covered, were scores of dead bodies. At one point I tried to count them, but couldn't. The police officer and I on the way back to my job discussed the 100s of deaths. We were both shook up about what we had just witnessed and what he told me he had seen previously. The bodies were at that time being retrieved by the local police and the National Guard unit. Just so many goddamn bodies!

At first, on the local news, they reported a high count of deaths. But almost immediately after, that number changed, and it remained somewhere in the 40s. If I remember correctly, the official statistic is 15 died as a direct result of the hurricane, and 29 indirectly. What a fucking lie.

The following Saturday, I went down again, this time as a volunteer. By this time, George Bush (41) finally sent in the US Army to organize the efforts. I asked someone about the many deaths. I was met, face to face by someone in the Army. I forget what he said to me. I was stunned and I was frightened. But whatever it was he said, under no certain terms were there anymore dead than the officially reported dead.

You asked, eye22004: So those people had no relatives or friends, and they just "disappeared?" And noone has come forward, and no media has caught on or anything?

:eyes: :tinfoilhat:

I can tell you. They came in mostly from the migrant camps. They lived in ramshackle little houses or apartments. The nobodies of our society. The illegals. Whether they were migrant, illegal or whatever, if nobody claimed them, they were NOT reported as dead. One thing about Florida than anywhere else is Florida is very transient. People come and go in and out of the state all the time.

That, my friend, is why the count was so low. You don't have to believe me. But it is the truth. I saw with my own eyes, and I wish I hadn't. My co-workers who were down there working saw it too. We had the fear of God put in us not to spread 'rumors' as they called it. It's been 14 years now and I'm still antsy to talk about it. It is also very difficult to talk about because it conjures up so many horrible emotions from that time. I am sitting here shaking as I type just remembering that terrible, terrible time.

[Bjornsdotter]

95. I believe you...

....and how horrible! What a terrible memory to carry with you.

Kim

[Tsiyu]

102. These are bad memories

Sorry, and thank you for telling them.

I am adding a link to a post-Charley observer's comments about body bags lining the street:

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=54091

New votes for Bushy, my fear....

[IdaBriggs]

117. May I Ask...?

Why didn't it get brought up during Clinton's eight years in office? Just curious.

[jmcgowanjm]

77. For inquiries about relatives living in Punta Gorda Area

Does that sound like something you should
be hearing somewhere?

Red Cross Helps Families Looking for Loved Ones in Florida

http://www.disasterrelief.org/Disasters/980228inquire/

Everyone knows Florida is a snowbird state.

It's been hard for families to get through to relatives to find out if they're OK.

You live in Orlando, your Mother is in Punta Gorda.
What do you do?

[Zan_of_Texas]

119. I have lived in hurricane country for the past 30 years.

Gulf Coast -- Florida and Texas.

You have every kind of reaction to an approaching hurricane.

Some people run to the store and buy things like candles, plywood, food, etc.

Some people leave town.

Some people go to a shelter.

Some people don't watch news and aren't tuned into it.

Some people trust in a god of their choosing to do everything for them.

Many people are unsettled or scared, but they may not choose the right thing to do.

I did some interviews for FEMA on hurricane preparedness. One young woman I talked with was not a dumb person. She lived in a neighborhood of sturdy brick houses 50 miles inland. What did she and her mom do when the last hurricane came? "Oh, we went to grandma's house and hid in the closets," she told me. "We were real scared." And where did Grandma live? "Down toward the coast. In a mobile home."

Lest you think only her family was lacking in common sense, let me tell you the reactions of one of the largest non-profit consortiums in this city in this area of over 3 million. I asked about their preparedness for disasters. "Oh, that would be Harry," or whatever his name was. Harry dutifully looked in his files, and indeed there had been meetings, sporadic, about hurricane preparedness. But, the only sign of any activity was the one file folder with meeting minutes. Not much for a very populated, flat urban area, a community that is barely above sea level, and regularly gets hurricane warnings. And sometimes, a hurricane.

Let me tell you what happened the last time we had a major disaster here in the Houston area. The first responders were completely overwhelmed and not in the places where they were needed. One of the TV stations took it on themselves to become a central nervous system, and broadcast "HELP" info when a family was stranded on top of their house and needed rescue, or an 18-wheeler driver was on top of his truck in rising water about to be swept away. A number of families were rescued with a garbage truck (and a reporter from that station) because that could get through.

PEOPLE in this community went out with boats and good will and everything they had at their disposal and saved total strangers. Government was ill-prepared and inadequate. When people saw a need and had resources to offer, they responded; they could see that our government could not do it.

I don't know if the forecasters blew it on Charley, or if the Florida Guard has vaporized to Iraq. I do know that regular people are heroes all the time, if they believe they are needed.

And, on the other side of the coin, I know that insurance companies will use this disaster, like they used 9-11, to raise rates.

[troublemaker]

26. This is both low and silly

hundreds are "missing" because a lot of phone lines are out

[Brotherjohn]

32. Exactly. Someone else pointed out the communications issue above.

My sister-in-law lives way inland, in Orlando. They just got power back today and phone service (even cel) has been iffy at best. It was two days before she was able to call my wife, and my wife has not been able to call her at all. It's difficult ennough to find out if a few individual people are okay. Imagine what it is like getting accurate information on the whole picture in light of that.

It takes time to recover from a hurricane people, and especially time to figure out just how bad the damage and casualties are. In the immediate aftermath, people were saying "hundreds of deaths" because of sketchy, second-hand reports of sherrifs in Punta Gorda ordering 60 body bags and standing over "stacks of bodies". But you have to remember, that was all sketchy, seond-hand info communicated in the chaos of the immediate aftermath.

[Junkdrawer]

67. See post #66 - Officials reluctant to release death toll

Perhaps it's possible someone wants the nation focus to change before the official death toll is released?

[Dems Will Win]

36. and the Lazy Lagoon report??

"At the Lazy Lagoon Mobile Park in Punta Gorda – the epicentre of the destruction – bodies littered the streets."

Why haven't we heard that? They are protecting Jeb.

16 dead is one thing hundreds dead, if true, is another.

WHY ISN'T THE MEDIA REPORTING THEM SIMPLY AS MISSING THEN???

[Must_B_Free]

30. KNEW IT!

Achilles had is heel exposed. CNN tried to protect it gfor him with "technical difficulties"

[MooPie]

35. I live in the Orlando area

and according to today's paper, some of the missing people might have left the area and haven't been in touch with anyone, we can only hope. But, we've been without power and phone (except here at work, thank goodness so I can get back on DU) since Friday night and probably won't be back up until the middle of the week. I've only been able to make contact with people today since we couldn't even use our cell phones since the towers were knocked out. The really scary part is Sanibel Island. For whatever reason there haven't been any reports on them, except that it was sheared in half, and is now two islands. Supposedly there were at least 100 people still on the island.
Last night we listened to a battery powered radio and I couldn't believe how Glenda Hood kept saying over and over how the government did such a great job warning and evacuating people. Yeah, they evacuated everyone from Tampa who came here and got to really experience it firsthand. Then it took six hours to get the 80-90 miles back to Tampa the next day.
On Friday, the local news and radio stations, not Jeb, did a great job by starting to warn us by 11 am to prepare before hand, and in fact wanted everyone off the roads by 4 pm, which most people did, even though at that time we weren't directly in the path. Then, around 5 pm, I learned about the hurricane's change of path again on the local news, which pre-empted all programs to keep us updated. They did a great job..
But the west coast, what a mess. I don't know what happened down there, except that it's a disaster.

[Junkdrawer]

43. Oh, we'll get the truth - about a week AFTER the next terror attack...

By then, it will seem minor news.

[KharmaTrain]

44. Distressing Email From San Marcos...

And I'm told this was not near the main impact area of Charley...

A good friend wrote that she's using a friend's palm pilot that isn't connected to the local phone system. Her power's been out since Friday afternoon and telephone service is also on and off. When the phones do work, the local circuits overload so calls are cut off. Cellphones are still down since the power to the sites are down.

She says people there are calm and some are having a good time at "Charley Parties"...(in the resort hotels...some that are using their own generators), but there are also a lot of scared elderly people in town who aren't all accounted for. She recalls the problem we had here in Chicago a decade ago when, during a massive heatwave, hundreds of elderly were found dead in their apartments...afraid to come out. She fears many were trapped in mobil homes and shanties in the low lying areas and we'll never know their fates.

She also said there's a lot of damage around the area and people are worried about looting as the local police, fire and EMT are running around the clock and streteched real thin. There are a lot of "visitors" on the island who don't care what happens to this place.

This was sent on Sunday morning...and I don't know if things have gotten better. I haven't seen her pop online yet (she lives on this thing) and I know she's well and will give a great report once she's back online.

[madfloridian]

46. A reporter needs to find out how many shelters were NOT available.

Our county only had about 6, and it is a large county. They have cut down on them, and in our area they urged people to stay home if it were not an emergency.

[amazona]

50. Oh Lord, I hope these people turn up OK

Some of the missing may well be evacuated a long distance away.

I don't think you can fault even the evil Jeb for failing to evacuate the entire west coast of Florida. I don't believe it is physically possible.

[theboss]

57. I think blaming Jeb is a bit much

If he had ordered a mandatory evacuation of the entire coast and the storm had turned out to miss the state, I think a lot of the same people complaining would be stating that he was needlessly trying to cause panic. Knowing a little bit about these sorts of things, it's a really difficult call to determine who to evacuate and when. An evacuation is not an easy thing to accomplish and has its share of dangers too.

Besides, it seems that everyone evacuatated in this storm ended up in Orlando and caught the brunt of it anyway. This is not an exact science no matter how much we want it to be.

I also agree that the media needlessly harping on Tampa during the run-up didn't help matters.

[unfrigginreal]

58. They just had a report on CNN that says the number of missing coming down

Said they performed sweeps in 31 of the hardest hit areas and haven't found anything. They're going door to door to check on everybody.

[murray hill farm]

59. missing in Florida

i lived in Fla for many years...through hurricanes and fires. at this point there are many thousand probably "missing"...this is to be expected. When told to evacuate, people do leave..and most likely not able to return as yet...and there are no records of where people went when they left after evacuation. Electricity has been off..people have trouble or do not communicate to their home area right now. The times we did evacuate for either fires or hurricanes, we were not allowed to return right away..and then when we were allowed, we had to prove that we had homes in the effected areas before we were let back in...this is to avoid looting, which is always a problem. It will take time to determine the difference between missing because people have just not returned and no one knows where they are at this point.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

60. and to top it all off - we have to listen to Jeb & George Bush 24/7

and hear how wonderful and responsive they are.....

[Dems Will Win]

63. Fox News had the headline "Hundreds Missing"

but I heard no talk about it...

[RebelYell]

61. The gov't in this country

can't do one fucking thing right, not one

God, I'm pissed

[Junkdrawer]

66. "Officials reluctant to release death toll"

CHARLOTTE COUNTY - Two refrigerated trucks sat in the wind-torn parking lot of the Best Western Water Front Inn off the tranquil waters of Charlotte Harbor, serving as a temporary morgue for the casualties of Hurricane Charley.

Four people may have been killed by the storm in Charlotte County, some reports indicate, and Charley led to at least 16 deaths statewide during its forceful push Friday through Florida.

With ongoing search and rescue efforts stretching into the evening hours Sunday, Charlotte County emergency officials declined to confirm the county's fatalities.

"We've never dealt with a mass casualty event, and we're not yet prepared to (verify) or acknowledge the number of fatalities," said Wayne Sallade, director of Charlotte County's emergency management. "Yes, there are fatalities. Yes, there are people in those refrigerated trucks at the temporary morgue, but we're not prepared to say how many. At this point, I'm not sure that I have the accurate number.

...

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/local/9411262.htm

[NewYorkerfromMass]

69. Missing numbers may be inflated

Officials have said hundreds of people are still missing -- but now warn that number may be inflated.

Charlotte County's director of emergency management says many of the missing people cases stem from an anxious "cousin Vinny in Ohio" calling officials after failing to reach a relative.

http://www.kpvi.com/index.cfm?page=nbcheadlines.cfm&ID=20622

[jmcgowanjm]

70. Can someone here dispel Martial Law rumour?

Officials deny martial law declared

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/florida/news-article.aspx?storyid=22847

[SoCalDem]

73. "We" may never know the actual count..

Think about it.. It's very similar to the military death toll.. Probably 75% of "Floridians" are from somewhere else.. The elderly, are probably from ALL OVER the country..

So if "something happens" to great-grandma in Florida, her family from Ohio, or Tennessee, or Michigan or where ever, claims her body, has a funeral, and that's the end of it.. One family , probably scattered all over the place.. Who are they gonna connect with?? They probably did not know HER friends in Florida.. The press will not be staying there to "connect the dots"..

It's not like several people killed in a close knit small town in the Midwest somewhere.. A place where everyone truly knows everyone, and might be related to half the town..

The military paradigm fits too.. A soldier dies and other than his parents/family at home...no one knows..He is just "there one day..and gone the next"..

The press will be "onto the next 'big-story', soon" and we will probably never really know..

The wind and rain are sexy and exciting, but the twisted aluminum, swarms of mosquitoes, decaying animal corpses are definitely NOT..so the press will be gone soon..

Funerals will happen, and other than the folks who knew the individuals, we will never get an "accurate" count..

There will be some people who, if they were not there, will just chalk it up to bad luck, and never return to Florida..

[Junkdrawer]

75. Check dmr's post #71

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2221052&mesg_id=2223271&page=

[NewYorkerfromMass]

76. Insurance companies know all.

The only ones off the radar will be the undocumenteds as per post #71.

[SoCalDem]

78. They know, BUT if no one compiles the combined data, and REPORTS about it

"we" will never know.. In politics, if something is unknown, it does not hurt you..

I agree with post #71 too..

and...

There were lots of people who died in the WTC tragedy, who were never accounted for as well.. An illegal with a family who was too afraid to come forward, will be forever mourned ONLY by them..

Well-documented people will be accounted for, but the ones on the fringe don't really matter, since they were not insured and probably will not be missed by many..if any..

A very old person who has managed to outlive the rest of their family, will NOT be missed..

Hopefully, people did take pictures.. They have a way of leaking out..

[ItsMyParty]

81. Reuters: Morgue in Punta Gorda Refusing to Give Out Number of Dead

I just started a post on this in General Discussion and won't post it again here. Take a look. I just want to add that people are getting the "missing" issue mixed up with the "dead in the morgue but refusal to give out the numbers" issue. Yes, you can find the 'missing' and revise numbers downward; but you can't "un-dead" the dead. That's the point. And it begs a real big question of why they don't want to give out body counts (that has nothing to do with finding next of kin).

[napi21]

106. This is really weird. My Hubby came home Sat. and asked

if they had pictures of the results of the storm in Fla. I told him that's all they'd been running all day. He said he wanted to see. I put CNN on, and while we were eating dinner, they showed the trailer park, and reported there were 5 dead. He said he didn't understand this because he heard on the radio that there were bodies strewn everywhere. I don't know what program he was listening to, but it would have been around lunch time, and on a station in GA.

From everything I've seen in this thread, that announcement was not made anywhere else.

[LiberalManiacfromOC]

89. This is terrible

the bushes need to just vanish! Things would be so much better!

[Cha]

100. This is an interesting piece from the UK Independent..

on our resident and politicizing Charley..Also the intro paragraph from http://www.democrats.com
"Does Bush see Hurricane Disaster as Just another Chance to Gain Political Mileage in a Battleground State?
The evidence of over three years' observations say that the answer to that question is YES. When a killer F-4 tornado destroyed the community of La Plata in Maryland in 2002 - a town barely an hour from the White House, Bush couldn't be bothered to make any personal show at all. Same during Isabel, also much closer to home, with damage in the billions. He has failed to appear more than briefly for any national disaster - even after 9/11, it was a week before he could be induced to go to NYC. The biggest difference this time: he's behind in the polls. But let's hope for the people of FLA that Bush makes good on his promise of speedy aid to the victims of Charley. He certainly didn't make good on the same promise made to 9/11 victims."

snip~
Experts also warned that Mr Bush faced a challenge trying to dispel any notion that he was trying to make political mileage out of the human tragedy left by the storm. If he achieves that, Charley may end up helping him recover support in a state which he snatched from Al Gore in 2000 by just 537 votes.end snip~

more at..
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=551870

[dmr]

115. Oh, zidzi - it IS politics!

I knew the Bush* would show up in Florida. Not just because it's his brother's state, but because of how his father behaved after Hurricane Andrew. I swear, that man lost many votes that election year because of his insensitivity and stupidity. George's handlers were not about to make the same mistake his dad made.

I hope you all don't mind me bringing up Hurricane Andrew again. I was the hurricane liason at my job, working with about 150 employees and their families, their extended families and friends. It is all very near and dear to me; and something I've been unable to talk about until recently. My best friend killed himself 4 months after his house was destroyed. That and a few other things - he just couldn't cope anymore.

The devastation in South Dade County was astronomical. It looked like a nuclear explosion had hit the area. There was total destruction of homes, hungry and thirsty children, men with guns patrolling their homes from looters, pleas for help, just chaos everywhere. So many people were injured.

Americans were bringing in food, water, clothing and other items from all across America. The police helicopters would make pick-ups of these items in North Dade County and then drop them off somewhere down south. The problem was there was so much, no system to sort and give out. Much of this was destroyed in the torrential thunderstorms that passed though daily or several times daily.

There was only one way in, and that was from the north. You could only go so far before the streets turned into a war zone. Governor Lawton Chiles called in the National Guard, but that wasn’t enough, and that didn't occur right away.

The county needed help. Desperately needing organization and help. Many of those within the county on emergency teams and their families were now homeless or injured.

Here comes the politics:

Dade Counties' emergency management director was a lady named Kate Hale. I met her once several years later at a restaurant. I recognized her, and just had to go and shake her hand and say thank you. She even hugged me, or maybe I hugged her.

Why? Well, from a story 10 years after Andrew from the St. Pete Times:

- snip -
Three days after Hurricane Andrew struck, thousands of people in south Dade County were desperate for food and water. They swarmed the few relief trucks that arrived, but many left empty-handed. Andrew had been the most destructive natural disaster in U.S. history and the federal government was nowhere in sight.

Then Kate Hale spoke up.

– snip –

Hale and her colleagues were stunned by the sluggish federal response. Virtually every neighborhood south of Kendall looked as if a nuclear bomb had exploded. Florida Gov. Lawton Chiles sent the National Guard, but there weren't enough troops. The federal government was being bureaucratic.

- snip -

Three days after the storm, Hale and other top county officials met to discuss the dire situation. There were reports of desperate mothers dipping baby bottles in mud puddles. Residents sat in the wreckage of their homes holding shotguns to ward off looters. Police warned of violence unless food and shelter arrived. The officials agreed Hale would make a loud complaint at a news conference. "I figured the game plan was "Let Kate do it and if anybody gets offended we will fire her,' " she recalls. She warned her staff. "I just want you to know that it's been nice working with you," she told them.

At a nationally televised news conference a few hours later, Hale was blunt:

"Dade County is getting caught in the middle of something," she said, referring to the bureaucratic squabbles between state and federal officials. "Quit playing like a bunch of kids."

- snip –

"Where in the hell is the cavalry on this one?" Dade's emergency management director asked at a news conference, her voice filled with exasperation. "They keep saying we're going to get supplies. For God's sake, where are they?" Within hours, the feds sprang into action. President Bush ordered the Army to send mobile kitchens and build a massive tent city.

- more -
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/webspecials02/andrew/day3/story1.shtml

I remember watching George Bush, who was on the campaign trail at the time, as he was about to climb the steps to ‘Air Force I’ acting so baffled, and put out. Accusing Gov. Lawton Chiles of playing politics.

I hated that man that day. It’s no wonder he lost the election that November. I had already seen the dead bodies. I was sick at heart. I was tired. I felt guilty I went unscathed. Everyone needed so much. I wanted everyone to be rescued and everything to be all right, and this asshole is talking politics?

Had Andrew struck landfall 20 miles to the north, it would have devastated downtown Miami. Thank goodness Andrew was a dry, fast-moving and compact system. Had it been bigger, more rain, and slower, it would have been far worse.

[smallprint]

113. UK Daily Mirror: 200 Feared Dead As All Hell Breaks Loose

Aug 15 2004

From Barry Wigmore In Florida

AT LEAST 200 people were feared dead last night after Hurricane Charley left Florida looking like a war zone with streets "littered with bodies".

Around 60 people were crushed to death at a trailer park after 170mph whirlwinds flattened homes like dominoes.

Meanwhile, hundreds were still missing, thousands homeless and over a million homes left without power while emergency crews struggled to reach the dead and injured.

...

Last night 15 were confirmed dead but the death toll was rising as rescue teams ploughed through the carnage. They fear "a significant loss of life" at a mobile home park near the seaside town of Punta Gorda, where witnesses said dead bodies "littered the streets".

article: http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14532339&method=full&siteid=106694&headline=200-feared-dead-as-all-hell-breaks-loose-name_page.html




A 1st hand account from Rumor Mill News:

There used to be a big Encore mobile home park for retired people in Punta Gorda, and another large mobile home park on the other side of the street. Now, all you can see is a large garbage heap on both sides of the street. I was there Friday night trying to get to a relative's house a mile down Burnt Store Road, but the road was blocked by fallen trees and power poles that snapped in half.

As I turned the Jeep around, my headlights lit up the most devastating site I have ever seen... hundreds of mobile homes reduced to small pieces of trash. There were no emergency vehicles there yet and perhaps we were the first to stumble on this site hours after the eye of Charley had passed over that location.

My friend and I commented to each other how everyone must have gotten out since there was no sign of life anywhere. As we walked down the main entrance driveway, we realized how wrong we were. There were bodies under all that rubble and bodies in crushed cars. The silence was broken when we heard a faint voice off in the distance calling for help, but there was nothing we could do as there was no way to get through the rubble.

It doesn't matter what FEMA or the media may report about the two mobile home parks that were completely destroyed on that road. The truth is, there are hundreds of dead there and it will be weeks before they will be able to recover all the bodies.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=54068


Pretty awful. I think the death toll will go way up. The thing is, with electricity out, these people's families will not know anything for quite some time.

[smallprint]

114. Eyewitness report: nearly 400 dead

August 16, 2004
23:40 hours EDT
by Michael Edward

What an eye awakening day this was. I thought that I had seen it all having been involved from Viet Nam to the beginning of Desert Storm in my military and civilian law enforcement career, but today I learned about a new part of the shame game.

For those who won’t bother to read all this report, let me spell out the body counts that 6 of us (all retired military and/or law enforcement) went out to confirm today in different areas. These are confirmed bodies in the trucks, restaurant refers, or refer vans, and they are NOT “missing persons” or animals:

Charlotte Harbor areas – 58 dead as of 5pm today;
Fort Myers & the barrier islands – 21 deaths as of 3pm today;
Punta Gorda – 275+ deaths and escalating each hour;
Desoto County – 36 deaths, expected to increase;

These figures came from our own eyes, medical personnel, various county sheriff’s deputies, and eye witnesses or residents from the worst devastated areas. CNN and the rest of the world biased and controlled media are fooling none of us who live here. The current CONFIRMED body count in our 3 county area on the west coast of Florida is near 400 as I write this.

article: http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=54150


Granted, Rumor Mill News is not an established news source, but this guy sure puts in a lot of specific details. It looks credible to me.

[gatlingforme]

118. That is really sad,

[BeachBuckeye]

120. I know some law enforcement people in our area

And they confirm what the media says about the deaths being very minimal for such a bad storm.