Regarding violent protests at the GOP convention in NYC

[WilliamPitt]

I am going to be there with a couple of camera crews. If the police start something, we will be there to capture it on film.

That having been said, if I or any of my crew get hurt because protesters start a violent confrontation, those protesters will have me as an enemy forever, and I do not treat my enemies with kindness.

If everyone who is expected to show up actually does show up - 500,000 people or so - no tactics will be necessary to 'shut down the city.' The city will be stopped by sheer volume.

Bear that in mind.

[ClassWarrior]

1. Amen Will. And thanks in advance for being there.

[senseandsensibility]

2. Protestors

I applaud you and respect you for putting yourselves on the line for the rest of us. You are heroes to me. However, please remember that you represent us, and that the mediawhores will be looking for ANYTHING to make us look bad. Violence is not the answer.

[molly]

3. My thoughts exactly - and thanks to Will for bringing

this up.

[seabeyond]

4. with you william

and it is going to be grand. be brought to stillness. peace. celebration of who we are. the children and intellectuals, the diversity the grand.......our future of who we want to be

[grytpype]

5. Please, no violence.

Oh, for fuck's sake, why violence?

And enough of that "we'll shut down the city" bullshit, millions of people live here and we shouldn't be punished any further for having the misfortune to host Dear Leader and his Blessed Party for a week!

An effective protest would be a mixture of issue oriented stuff, patriotic displays, and mockery of the Commander in Chimp for being a drunken coked-up non-elected moron who fucked up his presidency.

We don't need violence and we sure as shit don't need to shut down the city.

[Raven]

6. The Vietnam War protesters

came up with an interesting and very effective tactic. When the National Guard and the police lined up in full riot gear, we would slowly walk up to them and give them a flower. We got alot of smiles doing that and it broke the tension. Might work in NYC! :-)

[ClassWarrior]

8. Were you there??

Were you one of those goddesses who put flowers in the barrels of NG rifles?

I think I'm in love...

:loveya:

[Raven]

I certainly was!

I was in grad school in DC and my husband was in Vietnam. I wasn't exactly a "goddess" but I was kinda cute! :-) One of the things that I vividly remember about those protests was how frightened and intimidated I felt seeing all these guys with billy clubs and rifles and gas masks. They did not look human but we usually managed to humanized them.

[ClassWarrior]

27. Wow. Thank you.

[Kanary]

7. link for important related info:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2218065

[DrWeird]

9. I quoted it before, I'll quote it again.

"An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law. "

- Martin Luther King Jr.

"A riot is the language of the unheard."

-Martin Luther King Jr.

[WilliamPitt]

10. Ever been in a riot?

[DrWeird]

11. Not yet.

You?

[WilliamPitt]

15. Nope

Therefore, I try to avoid waxing rhapshodic about a massive violent confrontation in which people get hurt and/or killed. Romanticizing violence is how assholes like Bush talk kids into volunteering for wars of choice. Not a rhetorical club I'm interested in joining.

I'll give it to MLK; he'd been in riots and in jail. You? Not so much.

[DrWeird]

17. Hey, I'd love for this to be completely peaceful.

I just have think I'd have a hard time just standing around doing nothing while police pepper spray elderly women and children.

[WilliamPitt]

18. That's why I will have camera crews

You punch one pepper-spraying cop, that's one cop with a black eye and you a wet smear on the sidewalk.

Me (or you) filming one pepper-spraying cop and broadbanding the video to millions of people via truthout, that's a frozen moment of truth to shake the very walls.

[DrWeird]

21. I'd rather get beat.

And spend a couple nights in the detention center.

Then just sit back and tape it.

Easy to say from where I am, sure, but none of us nows how we're going to act when the shit goes down.

[kiahzero]

26. Or, in other words:

"I'd rather engage in a gratifying but self-defeating pattern of behavior, rather than do what's best strategically for what I'm fighting for."

How "noble" of you.

[DrWeird]

32. I'll tell you what...

I sure as hell wouldn't sit behind a chain-link fence.

That's why Jesus invented bolt-cutters.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

55. Funny you should put that picture

of civil rights workers being sprayed with those hoses. The water pressure coming out of those hoses could take cement off a brick. Imagine how that felt.

What's with the caption "suck it dry?"

[DrWeird]

58. Probably hurt like hell.

But they didn't back off because somebody said, "it might make us look bad."

It's a sig, not a caption.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

54. And Dr. King

didn't go out LOOKING for them, either. In fact, he did his best to avoid physical violence.

[LoZoccolo]

14. I think a better question for him would be...

"Ever been to a demonstration even?"

[CaptainClark23]

12. Fuckin' - A right.

Thanks for the sentiment, Will.

But I'll go a step further, being native: "If I or any of my fellow New Yorkers (and that includes the NYPD) get hurt because protesters start a violent confrontation, those protesters will have me as an enemy forever, and I do not treat my enemies with kindness."

If you are coming to New York to start shit, you might just be in for the worst time of your life.

See you in the Streets!

[LoZoccolo]

13. I predict a lot of amatuers showing up.

Amatuers being, these people that think that breaking windows or whatever will accomplish anything but a crackdown on themselves, taking a bunch of non-amatuers with them. I seriously hope that the black bloc or whatever won't do some stupid shit.

[ClassWarrior]

That's why it's important for EVERYONE who plans to go...

...to contact your local Peace Action or similar group and GET TACTICAL NONVIOLENCE TRAINING. Do it TODAY.

Not only to learn to avoid starting something - but to learn to avoid getting drawn in when the Freeper infiltrators start agitating to make us look bad.

[gauguin57]

16. I may be going to protest ... but only to yell real loud.

I have no intention of startin' anything ... I just want to lend my person to the numbers in whatever free-speech zone there might be. I'm just going to hold a sign and yell a lot.

[Amaya]

19. Any violence will just add more fuel to the fire.

Once the NYPD unleash the horses. It's time to leave. Be there done that.

[YIMA]

20. Blac Bloc

Ever since it has been announced that the convention was going to be in NYC, various anarchists, et. al. have been planning to attend and disrupt. No doubt there will be those in attendance who, being emotionally charged, will join in. Having read much of their materials on the web, they view liberals and conservatives to both be fascists, and they already regard you as the enemy. And starting something big doesn't require that many. Hitler only started out with a handful of followers. When Castro started out, there were only five of them. I believe they plan on following through with their plans. They've been at it too long just to let it drop and a larger crowd is only going to encourage them and make it easier for them to hide.

[creeksneakers2]

22. Would it help?

What if word got around that if people got out of line the protesters themselves would turn them over to the police?

[ClassWarrior]

25. That's an excellent suggestion...

The threat may be enough to make disruptors think twice.

[CaptainClark23]

28. Not a threat, a promise.

From at least one New Yorker.

[ClassWarrior]

30. Good point.

[TreasonousBastard]

23. I hate say that...

the city will not be shut down by a half million people showing up.

I've lived and worked in NYC and been there when there were huge protests and rallies. The place is just too big to be shut down. It takes a three foot snowstorm to shut it down, and that only lasts a few hours.

Last year, with 200,000 people showing up, just go three blocks away and you would never know there was a protest.

Every day, hundreds of thousands of tourists, workers, and visitors show up in Mahattan, and the city absorbs them quite nicely. It neatly absorbs all the people showing up for Macy's parade and the 4th fireworks. And some of the other parades where the big problem is drunks raising hell-- much more violence than any protest. And the free summer concerts in Central Park, with a hundred thousand or so pitching blankets on the lawn.

Back when we had full employment over there, the big deal was trying to get down the street during lunch hour. Or get on the subway after work. You wanna see a mob-- looking for lunch on Fulton Street back in the 80's.

Nope, we'll show up and have a good ol' time, but shutting down the city just ain't gonna happen.

[Bombtrack]

24. Will, would you consider making a speech at the beginning of the protest

at least to the many DUers who will likely be there and listen, saying exactly that? Discouraging violence or destructivness basically. The more "leaders" who do that on the left the better we'll be.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

29. I've been thinking about this and just posted a poll

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2221922

[ramblin_dave]

31. Can anything be done to expose provocateurs?

This is what I worry about - "protesters" who are really working to make Democrats look bad.

[CaptainClark23]

37. Yes there is.

Come to NYC, and if you see someone getting stupid, stop him. Just ask for help from those around you. You will get it.

There are some very good thoughts on this subject here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2218479

[ilovenicepeople]

38. SPRAY PAINT THEM WITH RED PAINT!

[DrWeird]

43. I say, if anybody acts violent and/or disorderly...

then we beat the shit out of them. We don't want to look bad.

[CaptainClark23]

45. Motivations to violence.

I do not declare any pretense to non-violence, personally.

I support the right to self-defence, entirelly. Whether it be against law enforcement or fellow civilians.

I do not support pre-emptive violence. I will side against the aggressor in every case, with an equal or greater degree of violence.

I do understand your position, DrWeird, even if I do not agree with it.

My beef is against infiltrators, or those who think the anti-Bush agenda will be well served by inciting violent confrontation in NYC.

Thinking globally, acting locally, y'know? Well NYC is my local, and I will act.

See you in the streets, or in prison, hopefully not in the emergency room.

[DrWeird]

47. "I do not support pre-emptive violence."

Agreed.

And nothing is more worthy of contempt than infiltrators.

It's just the idea of spray painting the disorderly with red spray paint that seems a bit odd. Isn't this thread about preventing people from doing things like spraying people with red spray paint?

Anywho, this all seems to me to be an extension of the spineless dems debate. Don't say (or do) anything that might make us look bad. Don't criticize the president. Don't tie up traffic. Dress nice. Don't speak your mind, that's what "they" want us to do.

It all sounds like This Modern World's Blinky the Very Nice Dog.

[CaptainClark23]

49. I thought

the spray paint thing was sarcasm, ridiculing the nice-niks.

As always happens in debates of this nature, the salvos of accusation fly and soon everyone ends up being accused of working for the other side.

Hell, part of the reason MK-Ultra worked at all was the paranoia it created. For every real infiltrator sent in, we create a dozen from suspicion alone.

The repubs don't need to work so har to undermine us, we do just fine ourselves most of the time.

Bottom line to me is this - if every person going to protest the RNC in NY is dedicated to not throwing the proverbial first punch - then the first one to throw is the infiltrator. And I come from an ancestry where infiltrators are not kindly treated.

While not ruling out the possibility of violence occuring at the protest, can I get your personal pledge that you won't be one to start it, and that you will work against those who do?

I don't want to put you personally on the spot, but here we are. I think that this illustrates exactly the sort of personal responsibility for all that goes on around us that we are going to need if we plan to have anything BUT a bloodbath.

[DrWeird]

50. I thought it could have been sarcastic, hard to tell...

As for the RNC, unless somebody wants to cover my airfare, I won't be going. I didn't make it to the Seattle WTO, and I've been kicking myself ever since. That said, would I throw the first punch? Never. Nor would I ask anybody to. Would I break curfew? Yes. Would I tear down a barricade? Yup. Would I wear a gas mask? If I had one. All these things were considered "violent" at the Seattle WTO. They "outlawed" civilians using gas masks. Don't ask how that works. I'd tie up traffic if the opportunity presented itself.I might wear a nice suit and tie, but with a second, completely different pair of clothes underneath.

All this stuff is stuff the "nice-niks" are asking us to avoid, and I say to hell with that.

It's kind of a moot point, though. There will be violence, no doubt about it. Most likely it will be instigated by the police. And perpetuated by corrupt and violent police officers. And that alone is something that should be stood up too. I'm of the personal opinion that everybody who can make it should make it and raise as much hell as personally possible.

[CaptainClark23]

52. The items you cite...

I regard as simply being prepared. You are prepared to take such steps, but not pursuing them as an agenda (if I understand you correctly).

I agree, and I am prepared to do all this and more IF FORCED to by circumstance.

But I do not believe that such a turn of events would be in our greater best interests. Or in my own best interest. And so I look to see how such a circumstance evolves and how it can be avoided.

My answer is - infiltrators and idiots.

And so it is in my own best self-interest (not wanting to get gassed and clubbed), and in the general interest (wanting this to be a peaceful and productive series of demonstrations against the republican party) - to actively engage any who might threaten to bring such to bear by their own violent actions.

[DrWeird]

60. I see your point...

but I think the "infiltrators and idiots" will be few and far between, and the more immediate threat will be from the police.

[mike_c]

33. if there's violence I'd expect it to be initiated by the "authorities...."

That seems to be the overwhelming pattern.

[Q]

34. I agree...violence is counterproductive...

...that said...please learn from history. Although many of you probably won't believe it...the government sometimes infiltrates protest groups and incites acts of violence to give the 'riot police' a reason to begin mass arrests. No one will ever know who started the riot. It will be blamed on ALL the protestors.

- And given the 'police state' mentality of this admin and their lack of tolerance for any kind of dissent...you can expect these types of tactics at THEIR convention.

[theboss]

35. I still don't know what's being protested....

The War? Bush himself? What?

[Junkdrawer]

36. Central Park is what worries me...

Central Park has been marked off limits, yet is the logical destination of a protest.

Already, we have posters who have come here to encourage protesters to ignore city officials and flood Central Park.

Talk about setting a trap.

[G_j]

39. the key organizer, UFPJ has rejected the Westside highway site

over safety issues among other things.
www.unitedforpeace.org

The Mayor has created this situation and though it may sound like a 'trap', Central Park is the ONLY safe place to hold the rally.
The Mayor needs some more phone calls. I will find and post his number.

[Junkdrawer]

40. I know. It's like saying...

"You can fly all you want, you just can't use the airports".

Setup.

[G_j]

44. Mayor Bloomberg's contact info

Central Park is the only place in NYC that can safely accommodate the 250,000 to 1 million people, that are expected to show up during the RNC Convention. With or without permits, most are going to end up in CP anyway. He needs to accept reality and plan to provide the resources necessary to assure a safe and peaceful protest.



Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg
City Hall
New York, NY 10007
PHONE 311 (or 212-NEW-YORK outside NYC)

FAX [phone]

E-MAIL:
http://nyc.gov/html/mail/html/mayor.html

[NewYorkerfromMass]

42. I think people should go to Central Park WITHOUT signs

Just go there and stand there. Anywhere. It could be the biggest protest ever by the mere fact of being there.

[CaptainClark23]

46. I'll be carrying a flag in the park.

The Seal of the City of New York.

'nuff said.

[smirkymonkey]

41. Thank you for that. I am worried about

my beloved city. I really hope things go smoothly, for all our sakes.

[G_j]

48. just remember the last NYC peace march was peaceful

even though people were herded into pens for the most part.
The major peace marches in DC and SF were also peaceful.
So although there are many concerns, as a general rule these protesters are deeply committed to peace.

[Amaya]

53. Yes, I remember the majority of the protesters were peaceful.

The cops on the other hand, provoked many. One officer pushed my son (he's 8 years old, by the way) and I off the sidewalk and ordered us back into the pen.

Mark my words people, NYPD will provoke and intimidate. Don't play their game.

[G_j]

56. Yes I know

that is why I think it was remarkable how well the protesters handled themselves.

Your story also illustrates why I strongy believe people should
prepare themselves by thinking about and discussing how to keep the peace in the face of various possible scenarios. I posted a thread on non-violence and N-V training, Kanary posted the link above.
:-)

[smirkymonkey]

62. Yes, I was there at the last two and they were both

amazingly peaceful for the size of the crowds.

However, I worry that this might be different, tensions are at a feverpitch and so much is at stake this time.

51. "I do not treat my enemies with kindness"

Doesn't that statement imply violence?
Be on watch for your own actions.

[ShaneGR]

57. You're kidding yourself about 500K

Try a million, at least.

[TankLV]

59. Non-violence is the key term, here.

Dress presentably, be presentable, go limp if you have to, turn the other cheek - yes, even if it means getting "beaten up".

Non-violence is the hardest thing to be/do.

Do not, under any circumstances, give in to what you would want to do justifiably - it will play into "their" hands.

I hope there are massive education events for everyone in as many places as possible to teach effect protests.

You can still "close down the city" and be peaceful.

"Go-limp" was what I remember. There are few persons who will beat-up on the innocent who are not resisting arrest, etc.

You might end up with a few scrapes and torn clothing from being dragged to the vans, etc. - but we need to tell people what to expect.

And, the worst thing we can all do is do nothing.

[KT2000]

61. Loons and GOP's plants will disrupt

with the violence - you can bet on that.