What is the TRUTH about casualties in Florida....

[Jokinomx]

If your in Florida...what are you seeing? Check out this report....

http://www.rense.com/general56/eekk.htm

:shrug:


:dem:

[Junkdrawer]

1. Thruth is we don't know. Truth is officials are refusing to release..

accurate numbers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2223814&mesg_id=2223814&page=

[Hubert Flottz]

2. DAMN!

KKKOMPASSION is wonderful ain't it?

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. Truth is Jeb and W talk a good game

and they're always on time for their photo ops, but we haven't seen much of them otherwise.

People are mostly on their own and fending for themselves as best they can.

It's a big mess and it will be a big mess for awhile.

[Hubert Flottz]

4. Kick this up!

And keep it :kick: ed!

[Rainbowreflect]

5. Kick for the truth!

:kick:

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rman]

7. it's not funny

-

[theboss]

8. It's predictable like the sunset

Some major news story happens. Wait a few days. Go to an Internet site to learn "what really happened."

[Media_Lies_Daily]

10. What's even more predictable are the people....

...that post comments like yours.

[Junkdrawer]

I heard officials won't release numbers - and I have a link..

"We've never dealt with a mass casualty event, and we're not yet prepared to (verify) or acknowledge the number of fatalities," said Wayne Sallade, director of Charlotte County's emergency management. "Yes, there are fatalities. Yes, there are people in those refrigerated trucks at the temporary morgue, but we're not prepared to say how many. At this point, I'm not sure that I have the accurate number.

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/local/9411262.htm

[Junkdrawer]

11. PS: The director of emergency management is saying "mass casualty event"..

Guess what the "official" total for his county is?

Try 4.

[Joanne98]

17. I was watching FAUX Saturday

And they had a women on the phone from one of the hospitals who said they have over 100 DOAs. I know it's FAUX but I heard her say it myself. If she was telling the truth then they are lying about the numbers.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

12. Even Jebbie stated that "Our worst fears have come true"....

<http://www.cnn.com/2004/WEATHER/08/14/storms/>

Why would he say something like that unless something really bad had taken place?

[SW FL Dem]

14. The explanation I heard yesterday was that officials

know the number of bodies, but they don't know how many of those deaths are due to Charley. In Charlotte County an average of 10- 15 people die every day from natural causes. They are doing autopsies before they definitively say that a death was due to Charley.

[Junkdrawer]

16. Sigh. Looks like we'll never get the truth...

They'll just blend Charley's dead into the "10-15" per day, claim that the stress of the aftermath caused a spike in the mortality of the elderly, and stick with the "4 dead" story.

I know "dead is dead", but I'd really like someone to look into Charley's piss poor emergency planning.

[Minstrel Boy]

25. Sounds like the parceling out of military casualties.

The hurricane likely triggered heart attacks due to exertion and stress. But I imagine they will be sifted out as "death by natural causes."

[Media_Lies_Daily]

9. At least the author of the article is working with eyewitness reports...

...you seem to be the only one in this thread stirring "up shit for no apparent reason".

[BeFree]

13. Yeah, did ya notice there is no star?

Folks, some people come here attempting to keep the truth from coming out. Even posters with a star do it. But when ya see that they don't put there money where their mouth is... let that be a guide.

Kerry on!

[theboss]

15. Is this the part where I have to list my Democratic credentials yet again?

I've never donated to this site. Big whoop.

Abbreviated version.

First campaign - age 5
Mom won lawsuit to run for office.
Mom won office.
Second campaign - age 7.
Statewide campaign - age 9.
Met Jay Rockefeller - age 6. Still friends.
Met Robert Byrd - age 7. Still deeply afraid.
Campaigned for Dukasis (sorta, I mean it was Dukakis) - age 14.
Worked for Clinton - age 18.
College Democrats - 19 - 22.
Went to law school - stopped caring about world - 23-25.
Lived in DC - back to being a good Dem - 26 - now.

In other words, I've been in the trenches with this party for 5/6 of my life. And I have the right to call bullshit on a conspiracy theory when I see one. Do I know what the death toll is? No. Do I think there is some vast conspiracy to hide the numbers? No.

[BeFree]

19. Well, well, well

You da boss, eh?

Go back and look at how you related yourself in this thread: Something about a certain religion... <gag>

If that's an example of how you have been working for democrats, is it any wonder the pukes are in power? No telling how many people you have alienated....

[theboss]

20. I was being sarcastic

And stealing from my favorite 9/11 conspiracy theory - the one where no Jews went to work that day.

[BeFree]

23. Yeah, ok...

But that's just it. If that is the example you set as a 'Democrat' and you did just that here, then one must ask: "With friends like that, who needs enemies?"

Does anybody's 'Boss' get very far with that kind of sarcasm? I think not.

[RossMcLochNess]

18. What am I missing here?

Why are people up in arms because the "official" death toll is only at 18-19 people? Officials have said that its going to increase greatly once autopsies are performed. Right now everyone is concerned with recovering the bodies not performing autopsies. Hence the refrigerated trucks. If they were trying to "hide" something, they wouldn't be bringing in refrigerated trucks to store the bodies. The trucks make it pretty obvious that there are mass casualties. And why would they try to "hide" the total death count? It was a natural disaster. The storm went from a Category 2 to a Category 4 in a span of an hour and a half. Of course there are going to be mass casualties because the storm got so much worse in such a short time that the many who chose to stay could not evacuate in time. I'm just not seeing anything diabolical here. Could someone help me out please?

[BeFree]

21. Example

Last night on ABC, they clearly stated there were only 17 dead and "it's a miracle."

Even you know that is hardly possible.

The thing is, knowing what we know, they will do anything to lessen the hard truth, a truth which will be, unfairly or not, placed squarely on the 'official's' shoulders. We all know they will do everything they can to shirk responsibility.

All in all, what we are doing is attempting to make sure they do not hide the truth, for one day it may be our own body count that is hidden from the rest of the world.

[seabeyond]

22. you are right natural disaster, nothing to hide

so why dont they report we have 19 confirmed deaths but there are many more that we are waiting for autopsies to be preformed before we give an accurate tally

what happened to actually reporting the facts instead of saying 19 dead and hunt for others is winding down

leaving the impression this is it

the way they are doing it is behaving like there is something to hide. this is bad

[RossMcLochNess]

24. On CNN...

they were interviewing some official (don't recall exactly who) but he was saying that the toll was sure to greatly increase once autopsies are performed. He said that they wanted to wait until autopsies were performed before adding numbers to the count because the storm went through areas with a high senior citizen population and its not uncommon to have many natural deaths per day. I just don't see how there can be any "blame" placed for this. It was a hurricane. Mother Nature can be unpredictable and unfortunately, she was in this case. It went from a Category 2 to a Category 4 in an hour and a half. Thats almost unprecedented for a storm to do that. Many of the deaths are people who chose to stay. That was their choice as unwise as it turned out to be. The government can't force them out at gunpoint over a hurricane. They chose to stay and they paid the price.

[Dems Will Win]

26. Jeb didn't want to order a mandatory evacuation of the whole coast

Just Tampa area was mandatory, the rest voluntary. That's why all those 400 + are dead--he was also too busy photo-opping on TV and was not paying attention when the storm turned.

Plus the National Guard equipment that works went to IRAQ!!

[RossMcLochNess]

27. Give me a break...

Jeb is a bona fide Grade A asshole but its not his or any other human being's fault. The storm turned quickly and grew in force. By the time meteorologists realized the the storm wasn't going to hit Tampa, it was too late. There is no way they could have evacuated if they wanted to. Point blank, it was a hurricane. Hurricanes can kill people. This one did. Jeb Bush didn't kill or cause anyone to be killed. There wasn't a mandatory evacuation but there also wasn't a mandatory order to stay. It was each person's choice. Jeb may be a liar, asshole, and thief but he nor anyone else is to blame for this.

[Dems Will Win]

28. This was all discussed in detail on another thread

The conclusion was Jeb was more interested in TV interviews than being in the situation room and making decisions...

Plus now Jeb is covering up the supposedly 400+ dead with a report the death toll has now reached 19. I suppose he can't help that, either.

Unless you're saying Michael Edwards is a liar. That is his second post on Rense by the way. He could be lying--BUT WHY WOULD HE? Since no one in their right mind would make such things up, he is either totally deranged or its all true, IMHO.

I doubt we will ever be told the truth however, unless someone can get a camera past the FEMA goons protecting the corpses.

[RossMcLochNess]

29. My point is...

the final toll probably will be in the low hundreds. But, they can't just list everyone who died in those counties over the past few days as hurricane casualties yet. The only truthful answer to the question of "How many casualties are there right now?" is 19 confirmed. Officials shouldn't be speculating. They need to go with facts. That doesn't mean that dozens more won't be added later. I have not seen a report by anyone who has said "There are only 19 people dead and thats the final count". Everyone is saying that more time is needed to get an accurate count. I'm not saying, nor did I EVER say that Michael Edwards or anyone else is lying. What I was saying is that everyone is jumping to conclusions without stopping to think about the situation. People who die by other means (natural from old age, accidents, crashes, etc.) would also need to be stored in those refrigerated trucks with power being out everywhere. The number of people dying every day by natural causes alone would fill a couple trailers due to the population down in that area. If its a couple months from now and the final toll is 19 or somewhere around there, then yes, I'll agree that something is fishy. But I think when all is said and done, we're probably going to see a count somewhere around 200. We all need to give those people time to do their jobs.

[SW FL Dem]

35. WRONG!

There were mandatory evacuations from the Keys to well north of Tampa. Parts of Marco Island were evacuated. Coastal areas of Collier, Lee, Charlotte and Sarasota counties were under mandatory evacuation. So were the coastal areas in Tampa and a few counties north of Tampa. Furthermore, evacuation decisions are made by local emergency officials at the county level unless Jeb issues an Executive Order transferring the power to him. Such Executive Orders aren't issued for a Category 2 hurricane. To my knowledge that last time such an order was issued was in 1999 when Hurricane Floyd was headed straight for the east coast of Florida and it was a Category 4 for a few days before it hit land.

[TeeYiYi]

40. Actually, I believe you might be mistaken . . .

Evacuation orders as of Friday 13th (the day of the hurricane):

EVACUATIONS: Mandatory for visitors, nonresidents and mobile home residents in Monroe County (Florida Keys). Pinellas and Hillsborough counties have asked up to 680,000 Tampa Bay residents to evacuate from coastal or low-lying areas. Mandatory for tourists and residents of coastal areas of Lee, Sarasota, Hernando counties, Manatee, Pasco and Marco Island, Everglades City, and points in Naples in Collier County. Voluntary for people in Glades, Levy, Charlotte, DeSoto, Taylor, and other parts of Collier County that aren't mandatory.

http://cbs4.com/floridanews/FL--TropicalWeather-D-dn/resources_news_html

TYY

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. Bingo. Nice find.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. The governor is responsible for the safety and well-being of the....

...citizens of his or her state, wouldn't you agree? If you agree, then it really was Jebbie's responsibility to order the folks out of the low-lying areas along the path of Charley, and to ensure that those orders were carried out.

As far as mandatory evacuations are concerned, several survivors in Charlotte County have publicly stated that they were not told to make a mandatory evacuation until Charley was within an hour to 45 minutes from landfall.

[SW FL Dem]

49. Yes and No

The governor has to balance the needs of all the people in the state. I have posted ad nauseum that the evacuation orders were not issued by Jeb. Have you read my posts? I am no fan of Jeb, but I can't blame him for this and I am getting tired of having to defend Jeb from attacks from people outside of FL who have no clue about the hurricanes or the warning systems. Yes, the system failed this time and people died. Jeb and the rest of Florida relied on the National Hurricane Center. PLEASE, don't politicize this!!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

51. egads- ! "I am getting tired of having to defend Jeb from attacks."

LOL! Are you hearing what you're saying? I KNOW you don't mean to be spending all this time working in Jeb's behalf.

Don't waste the time or space defending that nimrod. If he is mistakenly being blamed for something he didn't do - all I can say is "It couldn't happen to a nicer guy." It's karma - what goes around come around. He didn't get blamed for stealing the 2000 election or for the many dastardly deeds that he has done so don't feel so sorry for him.

I'm not sure who it was that "screwed up" but someone did. They should NOT have been so emphatic about it hitting the Tampa Bay area. That was repeated over and over again (I heard it over and over and over again). Several people in Port Charlotte said that it was part of the reason that they didn't leave. Many of the people had pets. Peoples pets have now been left without food and drink for several days now.

You know from living in Florida that if you don't have at least several hours notice - you might as well forget about going to another part of the state. In addition, if you don't have at least 1 or 2 hours notice forget about going to a shelter - due to all of the traffic.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

54. Have you read MY posts? I lived in St Pete, FL for 8 years....

....and 3.5 years in Mobile, AL. During that time, I've been in six hurricanes. Does that meet your rather interesting requirement to understand hurricanes and the associated warning systems?

Evidently, I also understand a lot more about how state governments work than you do, and who is ultimately in charge when faced with an oncoming natural disaster. Using the alleged lack of instruction from the National Hurricane Center as a means to protect Jebbie is laughable at best. Once again, the governor has the final word regarding the public safety of the residents of his or her state. Period.

Whether you like it or not, this issue is DEFINITELY going to be politicized once the true nature of this disaster becomes widely known. Whether you like it or not, Jebbie failed to take the proper action to protect those Floridians living along the coast south of the Tampa-St Pete area.

YOU can defend Jebbie all you like, my friend...have at it.

[seabeyond]

30. this is bush on so many different things he has done

the truth is a lot more painless yet inevitably he choses to lie. it is the continual constant lieing that is a bunch of shit. the had dui's, it was the covering. the awol, we know we just want him to quit lieing. he lies about every f*ckin thing, and we are continually havent to look deeper with all he says, with studies and numbers put out. he lies always, even when it doesnt matter

i for one am about damn tired of the damn lies

[SW FL Dem]

34. I agree with you and I actually went through Charley

I have been living this 24/7 for the past week. I have access to local news and I have friends in several of the hard hit areas. It isn't pretty. The death toll is not a count of bodies. It is a count of the deaths that have been specifically attributed to the hurricane. Based on what I have seen and heard, I firmly believe the death toll will rise. I also acknowledge that there may be some incentive to keep the total number down but I don't buy into the conspiracy theory. There are news vans and helicopters constantly filming. There are thousands of EMS workers and volunteers who are witnessing the destruction. As much as I dislike the Bushes, I don't think they could pull it off.

[Jokinomx]

36. Thanks SW FL Dem for your input..... I appreciate your post

That is why I posted this article in the first place... to get some opinions from Floridians that are living there. Anyway... I agree with your analysis of the situation...thanks...

I do agree with sleipnir about the rense page... he does post some fringe articles... however I take that as a positive... you do have to have a brain that can filter out the legitimate articles. (Besides, aliens aren't taking over the Earth... they have always been here...but that is a whole other topic)...

I would like to welcome Butterflyeffect and RossMcLochNess to the DU also... thanks for posting your opinions in this thread.. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

With that... Kerry on...:-)




:dem:

[lostnfound]

56. What they CAN pull off is timing the story until national news media is..

distracted or disinterested.

Might just be managing the bad news..
The more time that passes before the big numbers are announced, the less impact that questions about handling of the hurricane warnings will have.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

57. Some people just never learn..

I also acknowledge that there may be some incentive to keep the total number down but I don't buy into the conspiracy theory. There are news vans and helicopters constantly filming. There are thousands of EMS workers and volunteers who are witnessing the destruction. As much as I dislike the Bushes, I don't think they could pull it off.

This is that same old "anti-conspiracy theory" theory that is so patently false it is laughable.

It goes like this: far too many people know about it and thus someone would talk...

The OBVIOUS question is, TO WHO??? The MEDIA??

How exactly are these people who talk going to get their story out?

The next response from the "anti-conspiracy theory" people is "Well, there is the Internet!", to which the equally obvious answer is, what exactly is this thread about? It is about a person who knows using the internet to spread word of what happened because the media refuses to cover it!!!!


Is that not EXACTLY what you say would happen if a "conspiracy" was happening?

[jpak]

31. Dubya fudged the Iraq war casualties and got away with it...

...and JEB will get away with fudging the Charley causualty figures as well.

November can't come fast enough for this Florida voter...

[Butterflyeffect]

32. There was a Hurricane

I have been in many and they are no picnic. It always takes a while to get things organized and get help where it is needed. This particular storm devastated most of the state. Very tough to get help to everyone immediately. Very tough. Now I know Jeb Bush is an election fixing Slimeball but I doubt seriously he is ignoring the problems of the people affected. That seems a little far fetched. Please don't flame me. This is just my opinion. I have been through Andrew, Hugo, Fran, Bertha, Fredrica, and many tropical storm classes. I have seen what happens. people are warned to evacuate and then choose not to. People that had plenty of warning choose not to take measures. People that live in trailors stay. There is a lot of variable in a hurricane situation.

[GumboYaYa]

37. Exactly, it is hard to understand what it is like in the aftermath of

a major hurricane unless you have lived through it. Sometimes it takes days just to be able to get out of your neighborhood. I have spent the day after a storm just chopping up trees with my neigbors so that cars can get in and out of the streets. To eat everyone pulls all of their food out of the fridge and the ladies start cooking while the men clear the streets. The first few days are spent just trying to make life livable again. It takes a good bit of time to get to the point where you can focus on anything other than your own survival.

There is no telephone service or electricity. You are literally cut off from the world. It is hard to know what is going on a few streets over, much less the whole area.

[Retrograde]

38. first news reports can be wildly inaccurate

not much experience with hurricanes here, but I did go through a major earthquake in 1989: the next day's SF Chronicle headline read "Hundreds Feared Dead". When the dust settled, it turned out that the number of casualties was far, far less than anticipated - but who's going to pay attention to a headline that reads "Major Quake: Millions Inconvenienced"?

It's possible that the FL officials in charge of emergency preparedness screwed up big time AND casualties were high. It's also possible that the FL officials in charge of emergency preparedness screwed up big time AND casualties were lower than expected. At this point, I don't think that things have been organized enough down there to tell for certain. In '89 it took about 3 days for the local police going door-to-door to finally hit my neighborhood, and we got off easy. For now, let what rescuers there are work on the immediate problems, and let things get to some semblance of normal before accusing officials of lying.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

43. If it quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, and looks like a duck....

...how about we call it what it is...a duck...instead of waiting long enough for a commission to be called to cover it up.

Here's the bottom line, and anyone that's had any experience with hurricanes (I've been through six, four in Florida, and two in Mobile, AL) will tell you the following information is true:

1. Hurricane paths are not completely predictable. Hurricanes can, and do, make erratic movements. Charley just proved this point yet again;

2. When a major hurricane approaches land, the absolute safest course of action is the mandatory evacuation of ALL low-lying coastal areas along the path of that hurricane, even if you believe the probability of a strike along that path is low;

3. Despite the efforts of a very small minority on this board to attempt to keep Jebbie blameless for the loss of life in coastal areas NOT EVACUATED by mandatory order of emergency management, the bottom line is that the governor of any state is responsible for the safety and well-being of his or her citizens.

Now, let's discuss what we know so far:

FACT: Jebbie failed to order the mandatory evacuation of all low-lying coastal areas south of the Tampa-St Pete area.

FACT: At least two different people have stated publicly that they were told to leave the area with less than an hour to go before landfall.

FACT: 25 morticians were ordered into the affected area.

FACT: Two 18-wheeler refrigerator trucks are in the affected area serving as mobile morgues, the contents of which the authorities have not revealed as of this date.

FACT: Numerous eyewitnesses are reporting "significant loss of life".

FACT: Some areas have yet to be searched because roads are still impassable.

FACT: Some areas have yet to receive any food, water, or other basic supplies necessary for survival.

FACT: The media is reporting what they are being told to report, and they are being kept out of certain areas.

Is that duck quacking loud enough for you yet?

[sleipnir]

33. If it's on Rense, take it with a grain of salt.

Rense isn't all that reputable, they publish a lot of rumor and innuendo. Most of the "sensational" stuff never turns out to be true, Rense loves to go with sensational headlines. He's certainly no Drudge, but one must always seek independent verification on any Rense story.

Remember, this is the guy that thinks aliens are taking over Earth.

I have no doubt that the casualty figures are higher than are being reported, but over 400 is just absurd. There are hundreds "missing" right now but because communication is shit down there right now. Take this hypothetical. One person is listed as "missing" (and Edward assumes they're dead) but in reality they've evacuated north. They have either not returned yet or are unable to contact family members who would be able to update their status. Or the fact that FEMA is a disaster right now and their "missing" records are most certainly inaccurate and out-of-date. My educated guess from living through many tornadoes and hearing similar stories is that many of the missing are very much alive but have yet to be listed as "found."

Now, as far as illegals and transients, I think they will push the total dead to nearly 100, if anyone in the Bush government bothers to count them.

I seriously doubt that there are more than 50 "upright citizens" deaths, but we may never know the truth.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

41. I'm sorry, but your post is unfounded. 90% of what Rense links in....

...terms of actual news have been written by people who are considered to be pretty reputable.

The person who wrote this story is one of five or six eyewitnesses in the area that have been gathering data that nobody else is either being allowed to see, or being allowed to report. The fact that the 25 morticians and the refrigerated trucks have been verified by other news agancies as being on the scene tells me that there is more to this story than what you would have us believe.

[sleipnir]

53. I'm talking about the other 10%.

The Sensational Ten percent, if you will, of stories that almost belong on the World Daily News. He will link to pure gossip about aliens and landing craft or political fishing worms like the mysterious "Russians" who keep claiming American casualties in Iraq are 200% higher.

I do believe that there's more to the story, but I sure as hell don't believe that over 400 people are dead. Such a high number is unfounded and I believe we will come to find that the Florida government has been misdirecting bodies, but only perhaps a couple of dozen.

Of course Rense does post that it's in the rumor column, so at least he's honest with that fact. I still think it's highly questionable to post such a likely false story of that magnitude without checking several other sources, other than the author's "eyewitnesses." It is well known and accepted legal/investigative fact that eyewitness testimony is often skewed, misleading, or just plain false due to the fact that many eyewitnesses only see part of the picture and pieces are incorrectly put together.

God help us all if this is somehow all true and the complicity of the government in a crisis cover up is proven. If they will stoop to this level, there's now telling how far and how nasty things could get leading up to the election.

[rman]

55. That makes Rense a lot more reliable then CNN,

and most of the other mainstream media.

[RhodaGrits]

39. They are probably trying to confirm that all the casualties are really

U.S. citizens because everyone knows that you don't count non-U.S. casualties.

[TrustingDog]

42. from an Orlando-ian...

when I asked about the possible under reporting of deaths:

""....yea i heard that too - latest says its 19 deaths

but ive also heard stories from people(friends of friends) who are working for progress energy and were shipped down to punta gorda to work. they said they have seen bodies everywhere in rubble and one trailor park lost over 100 elderly people. """

[Junkdrawer]

44. Well, Jeb has a plan...

all the bodies go into a refrigerated truck and, over time, they are added into the normal, daily deaths of a region heavily skewed with the elderly.

[cthrumatrix]

46. this story is going to sink bush....AND the media for playing the "lap dog

[in_cog_ni_to]

48. I emailed this story to Michael Malloy.

I HOPE he SCREAMS about it tonight! We'll see.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

50. If they are lying to us - they will be in deep shit if they are found out.

You know how they say that "The cover-up is worse than the crime."

[jackieforthedems]

52. Don't Know About The Rest Of You

But can a guy whose parents named him, "Jeb" really be trusted anyway? Reminds me of the Beverly Hill Billies. The truth always comes out eventually remember.;)