PETA uses photo of Reagan to highlight Alzheimer's/meat consumption link

[Karmadillo]

Not a bad idea.

http://www.peta.org/feat/ReaganBB/

Americans are losing their minds over meat. A flood of research shows that the toxins in meat, including chicken and fish, increase your risk of developing Alzheimer’s disease, while the antioxidants in vegetables help prevent this deadly disease.

In the wake of President Ronald Reagan’s death, there has been a flurry of public discussion about Alzheimer’s disease and the Reagan family’s push for stem-cell research. The public would also benefit from being informed that Alzheimer’s, although not currently curable, can be prevented. What better way to alert the public than with a billboard campaign that features a respectful image of President Reagan, calling on the public to “Win One for the Gipper” by adopting a vegetarian diet?

more...

[smada]

1. Peta are a bunch of kooks

who have lost a lot of respect from me and others over their sick and inappropriate publicity seeking campaigns.

They think chicken coops are the moral equivalent to Nazi concentration camps? I beg to differ. My mother fled for her life from Nazi Germany. Yes, I'm pissed off.

[brainshrub]

2. LOL!

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

I love it!

[robcon]

3. The 'flood of research' is probably bogus.

PETA has no credibility with me.

[Karmadillo]

6. A discussion of recent research that supports the claim of a link

Please explain how this research is bogus. Thanks.

http://www.vegsource.com/articles/alzheimers_homocysteine.htm

<edit>

The next most striking aspect in a review of studies published during the past two years sheds significant light on another central risk factor in Alzheimers -- high levels of a blood substance called homocysteine.

Homocysteine is an amino acid, and amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. The only source of homocysteine for use in our bodies is that which is formed by the liver after the ingestion of another amino acid, methionine. Methionine is found in protein foods -- and animal protein contains two to three times the amount of methionine as does plant protein.

Among recent studies looking at the significance of elevated homocysteine levels and Alzheimer's are:

1) Miller JW; Homocysteine and Alzheimer's disease. Nutr Rev, 1999 Apr, 57:4, 126-9

"In a recent case-control study of 164 patients with clinically diagnosed Alzheimer's disease (AD), including 76 patients with the AD diagnosis confirmed postmortem, mean total serum homocysteine concentration was found to be significantly higher than that of a control group of elderly individuals with no evidence of cognitive impairment."

<edit>

In another study, reported at the World Alzheimer's Congress in July 2000, researches looked at 5,395 individuals aged 55 and over who were free from dementia. After examining subjects in 1993 and again in 1999 researchers reported the following:

"On average, people who remained free from any form of dementia had consumed higher amounts of beta-carotene, vitamin C, vitamin E and vegetables than the people in the study who developed Alzheimer’s disease."

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[LibLabUK]

13. Hmm... not a particularly good source.

They're still backing the claim that aluminium has a causative link to Alzheimers. They seemed to do this particular piece of "research" by hitting medline with a query and noting how many hits they got.

One possible explanation, they said, was the major difference in risk factors for cardiovascular disease between African Americans and Yoruba. The Nigerians, on average, are leaner, have lower cholesterol levels, and suffer less from high blood pressure and diabetes.

"Vascular disease may contribute both to dementia and to the development, progression, and clinical severity of Alzheimer's," the report said.

Other studies have already hinted at a link between cardiovascular illness and Alzheimer's. However, there has never been enough evidence before to bracket Alzheimer's disease together with heart disease in public warnings about unhealthy eating. - Guardian UK story

According to the research, it has nothing to do with the meat per se, but over consumption which leads to general bad health.

Typical PETA, manipulating research to push their agenda, and in doing so scaring people unnecessarily.

Playing on people's worries, beit financial, health or safety, to further your political agenda is one step above villainy in my book.

[Karmadillo]

49. The article you cite supports PETA

Your conclusion the research indicates "it has nothing to do with meat per se" seems unsupported by the article. Interesting you neglected to quote the following paragraph:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,43...

<edit>

One possible conclusion is that the mainly vegetarian diet of the Yoruba, compared with the fatty diet of many Americans, offers protection against Alzheimer's as well as against cardiovascular disease, the biggest killer in the rich world.

more...

[LibLabUK]

51. Let's see...

The claim that eating meat CAUSES AD is false. The risk described in the study in the Guardian article actually indicates that the risk factors for AD are similar to those for cardiovascular disease (homocysteine being a known indicator for CVD), this isn't suprising being that stroke (CVA) is often associated with AD.

What the Guardian article discusses, and what the conclusion of the Nigeria/US study holds is that a diet high in saturated fat increases the risk of developing CVD and AD. It is the saturated fat and not the meat that is the risk factor.

Consumption of fish and n-3 fatty acids and risk of incident Alzheimer disease. Arch Neurol. 2003 Jul;60(7):923-

A total of 131 sample participants developed Alzheimer disease. Participants who consumed fish once per week or more had 60% less risk of Alzheimer disease compared with those who rarely or never ate fish (relative risk, 0.4; 95% confidence interval, 0.2-0.9) in a model adjusted for age and other risk factors. Total intake of n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids was associated with reduced risk of Alzheimer disease, as was intake of docosahexaenoic acid (22:6n-3). Eicosapentaenoic acid (20:5n-3) was not associated with Alzheimer disease. The associations remained unchanged with additional adjustment for intakes of other dietary fats and of vitamin E and for cardiovascular conditions. CONCLUSION: Dietary intake of n-3 fatty acids and weekly consumption of fish may reduce the risk of incident Alzheimer disease


According to this study, eating fish actually lowered the risk of developing AD.




And to finish, although this'll probably give you a CVA.

Meat-adaptive genes and the evolution of slower aging in humans.Q Rev Biol. 2004 Mar;79(1):3-50.

The chimpanzee life span is shorter than that of humans, which is consistent with a faster schedule of aging. We consider aspects of diet that may have selected for genes that allowed the evolution of longer human life spans with slower aging. Diet has changed remarkably during human evolution. All direct human ancestors are believed to have been largely herbivorous. Chimpanzees eat more meat than other great apes, but in captivity are sensitive to hypercholesterolemia and vascular disease. We argue that this dietary shift to increased regular consumption of fatty animal tissues in the course of hominid evolution was mediated by selection for "meat-adaptive" genes. This selection conferred resistance to disease risks associated with meat eating also increased life expectancy. One candidate gene is apolipoprotein E (apoE), with the E3 allele evolved in the genus Homo that reduces the risks for Alzheimer's and vascular disease, as well as influencing inflammation, infection, and neuronal growth. Other evolved genes mediate lipid metabolism and host defense. The timing of the evolution of apoE and other candidates for meat-adaptive genes is discussed in relation to key events in human evolution.

Eating meat, according to this paper, actually increased the human life-span beyond that of our herbivorous ancestors.



And for the record, I have no beef (hehe) with vegetarians and I'm all for more ethical farming practices.

[Karmadillo]

66. Let's see

PETA doesn't say "meat causes Alzheimer's". It says consumption of meat increases the risk. The Guardian article you cite would seem to support this.

On Edit: The study discussing the longevity of our herbivours ancestors is nicely misleading (more relevant to compare today's carnivores to today's vegetarians). You might want to check out this link:

http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/veglongevity.html

<edit>

In conclusion

*vegetarians have low mortality compared with the general population
*much of this benefit is attributable to non-dietary lifestyle factors such as the avoidance of smoking and a high socio-economic status
*vegetarians have similar mortality to comparable non-vegetarians, although a vegetarian diet may confer an additional 1-2 years of life (at least among US Adventists).

Of course, life expectancy is not the only measure of health status, and other studies have suggested that vegetarians may enjoy a number of health benefits including being generally slimmer and having lower blood cholesterol levels than non-vegetarians.

So, should you be a vegetarian for health reasons? When asked this question, the Nobel-prize winning author Isaac Bashevis Singer replied: "Yes, for the health of the chicken! "

end

[Caution]

4. PETA continue their policy of turning their own organization into a joke.

pathetic really.

[trotsky]

5. And doing far more harm than good to their cause.

It just doesn't make sense. These campaigns (chicken procoessing = holocaust, etc.) don't get anyone to come around to their line of thinking, but instead turn people off. Tell me how this helps the animals?

Makes me think that PETA doesn't really care about the animals in the first place.

[Radical Activist]

14. It worked. It got results

They got McDonald's to change their policy in regard to how their farmers treat their chickens. It is much more humane now. There are a lot of labor unions who have taken on the world's biggest corporation and lost. Not many groups have done what PETA has done.

You can call them names all you want but until you find a more effective way to do what they have done maybe you should rethink your attitude.

[RebelOne]

16. Right on!! I couldn't have said it better. My feelings exactly.

[trotsky]

24. Three points

1) I didn't "call them names" so I'm not sure where that came from.

2) McDonald's saying they will ask their farmers to be more humane is hardly a huge accomplishment. Is McDonald's paying for observers to go out and monitor its farmers? Or was just just a letter they wrote to their chicken processors asking them to be nicer?

3) I will still contend that PETA's tactics annoy and alienate more people than they convert.

I am sorry to have criticized the Church of PETA.

[Radical Activist]

42. Ok, it was other people calling them names on this thread

I apologize for misplacing that onto you.

[LibLabUK]

34. Hmmm

"You can call them names all you want but until you find a more effective way to do what they have done maybe you should rethink your attitude."

Ends justifies means?

A dangerous principle.



Edited for spelling

[Radical Activist]

41. Yes. Dangerous to those in power

Read Rules for Radicals by Saul Alinksy and let me know what you think.

[chuck555]

7. They are so mainstream.

What about all the bacteria and viruses that die when we wash? Should we give them a chance?


Seriously, these people are dumber than freeepers.

[Radio-Active]

8. from what I hear about Freepers...

they tend to simplify an issue, in order to "understand" it. Much like what you did here..

No animal rights people that I know are concerned about the rights of bacteria or viruses. We are concerned with the rights of sentient beings with complex brains and nervous systems, who feel pain and suffer just like we do. Like hens who can barely move or lift a wing their entire lives. So, you see, bacteria and viruses don't fall into this category.

Whether or not you agree with PETA's tactics, don't dismiss the message just because you don't like the messenger. There are several other groups, like veganoutreach.org and farmsanctuary.org who have different tactics from PETA.

PETA is advocating a vegan diet to reduce the demand for the products of factory farms. Since many non-vegetarians are less sensitive to the outrages committed on factory farms, PETA has used other arguments to convince people.

What PETA needs to do is focus group their campaigns on the public before releasing a campaign, which is what they are doing now. This was a step in the right direction, but the media picked up on it, so they are still being criticized for being insensitive. Go figure.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. However, a vegan diet can be harmful if the vegan in question

does not have a source of Vitamin B-12.

Humans require Vitamin B-12 to carry oxygen to the brain, and it is found only in animal products (not necessarily meat). People who are so scrupulously vegan that they eat no animal products or animal-derived supplements for years on end can develop neurological problems, including symptoms that mimic Alzheimers.

[RebelOne]

19. There are many non-animal sources of B-12.

I'm vegetarian and I take daily supplements, also.

[Kanary]

30. Hey, there's the ticket...... we can expect the whole world to

get all their nutrition from pills.

:crazy:

Kanary

[Butterflies]

12. I agree with you

Thankyou for the well-written response. I don't understand people who don't have compassion for animals.

[trotsky]

36. And there's the problem.

Do you honestly think that all of us who are criticizing PETA "don't have compassion for animals"?

That's a rather ignorant assumption on your part.

As I've tried to make clear, I think PETA does more harm than good to the cause of kindness to animals. So do you think I don't have compassion for animals?

[Kanary]

45. Exactly, trotsky. I've been waiting to see if *anyone* would contradict

that ignorant statement.

Had the PETA people spoken up, they would have had more credibility. But, no, they let the attacks go merrily on, and then complain that we are being unfair to them.

:nopity:

Ludicrous, and divisive.

Kanary

[TreeHuggingLiberal]

9. Yes, the people that fight for the animals that

can't fight for themselves are "seriously" dumber than those that advocate the destruction of a whole region of people based solely on ignorance...

sarcasm off/

[Kanary]

10. What an amazing bunch of fear-mongering garbage

Any group that supports "research" that only *appears* to give credence to their preconceived beliefs, rather than to actually get to any real truth, is no better than the corporations that do the same thing in order to sell their products.

Pah.

Luckily, they have acted like such idiots so many times that nobody pays much attention to their "research" anymore.

Kanary

[SOS]

17. Nobody pays attention? Wrong.

"(CBS/AP) A supplier for Kentucky Fried Chicken fired 11 workers Wednesday, a day after an animal rights group released video of workers kicking, stomping and smashing birds against walls at a West Virginia processing plant.
The grainy videotape, which was released over the Internet, was secretly recorded between October and May by an investigator with the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

"It was just terrible, it was very hard to work there,'' the undercover PETA worker told CBS News Correspondent Mika Brzezinski. "They laughed and enjoyed themselves,'' said the man, referring to the videotaped kicking and stomping of the chickens.

The group said its investigator also obtained eyewitness testimony about employees "ripping birds' beaks off, spray-painting their faces, twisting their heads off, spitting tobacco into their mouths and eyes, and breaking them in half — all while the birds are still alive."

KFC President Gregg Dedrick said the fast-food company will stop buying from the Moorefield plant until the company can ensure no future abuse will occur. KFC also will place a full-time inspector in the Moorefield plant to watch for further abuse."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/20/national/main630674.shtml

Re: CJD/Alzheimers Research:

Alzheimers sometimes Creutzfeldt-Jakob

"Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease, the horrendous infectious fatal brain-deteriorating disease, is sometimes misdiagnosed as Alzheimers. Sometimes the misdiagnosis is "fast Alzheimers". In one study by Yale University researchers 13% of Alzheimer patients were found on autopsy to have CJD. CJD should be considered whenever a patient develops a rapid dementia and myoclonus."

http://neuro-www.mgh.harvard.edu/forum/AlzheimersDiseaseF/9.13.986.46PMAlzheimerssometim

PETA gets the job done while others sit around complaining.

"Alle reden vom Wetter, wir nicht"

[Kanary]

21. You're right. "Nobody" is an extreme word.

Hardly anybody pays attention is more accurate.

Kanary

[SOS]

22. As evidenced

by the huge PETA threads that pop up every two weeks at DU?

[Kanary]

28. Rush keeps bringing up the same ugly issues all the time

So, I guess, by your logic, that makes him right, too.

Kanary

[SOS]

39. My logic is sound, yours is deeply flawed

Your initial assertion was that "nobody pays attention to PETA" which is easily disproved by their success at changing corporate policies and the huge response they get on this board alone.

Then you completely change the subject to "right or wrong".

You can't change the topic of discussion after 3 posts and then assail my logic.

And, unfortunately, hardcore right-wing organization over the past 35 years has compeltely transformed the United States. Is Rush right or wrong? Is PETA right or wrong? That's a matter of personal opinion. Both wield influence. (Which, I believe, was your your original point)

[Kanary]

47. Oh, I can't? Same statement as all your other methods.

Dictatorial.

And, no, that doesn't get support from THINKING people.

It works with unthinking sheeple who follow the right.

You might want to consider which side you really think you're going to get the support from.

And, defending untrue and cruel tactics because they "work" is the rationale of those we are trying to unseat.

Kanary

[SOS]

50. You are free to do anything you want

including ignoring my posts with facts and links, changing your assertions after 10 minutes and then changing the subject from whether PETA gets the job done to whether PETA is "right or wrong", to comapring PETA with Rush because both deal in "ugly" arguements. You have never addressed one of my assertions. Just more anti-PETA vitriol completely unreleated to the discussion.
What does "Same statement as all your other methods" even mean? What statement, what methods? What are you even talking about?
Much as I would find spending the afternoon going around in circles on another pointless PETA thread entertaining, I'm due at work in an hour.
Generous contributions to PETA require my paycheck.
Bye.

[Kanary]

63. Whatever

I don't believe the "research" is scientific, and I fully expect that will come out in the future. Just like the "research" of tobacco companies.

Just like the claim years ago that eating meat made people aggressive. Of course, they never could explain why the Inuit aren't aggressive, since *all* they have to eat is meat.

Insisting that other Dems are for animal cruelty because they don't support your wild screaming is idiotic.

Not to mention, it just gains you enemies where you could have friends.

But, whatever....... foot, meet bullet.

Kanary

[Radical Activist]

15. Kind of like having Reagan's son speaking at the Dem convention

How is that good, but PETA using the same general tactic is bad? The PETA hate here is irrational and devoid of reality. It's a great idea and it will probably impact a lot of people. If PETA was truly ineffective then none of us would know who they are, like the thousands of liberal no-name groups who play by the conventional rules and accomplish nothing.

[Kanary]

20. Irrational? Yeah, you're being picked on

It couldn't possibly be that people are tired of the hate coming from PETA, could it?

If you would actually read the IRRATIONAL attacks on anyone who is not in your specific camp here, you might start to understand just how divisive and actual FLAMEBAIT your attacks really are.

ONe thing we in the peace movement learned waaay back in the 60's is that you don't win hearts and minds by demonizing those whose behavior you wish to change.

You might consider that.

Kanary

[Radical Activist]

23. But here we are discussing their issues

and you know who PETA is, even if you get a distorted version of what they stand for. So, they reached their goal didn't they?

You make a big assumption that I'm part of PETA. I'm not a vegetarian or a PETA member. I can simply recognize and respect an effective protest group when I see one, even when I don't agree with them all the time.

How many conversations have been started about the humanity of circuses because of PETA protests? You may find them distasteful but they get results. It's all about results.

If we're talking about peace movements tell me what United for Peace and Justice has accomplished. This is the big tent peace group, but has anyone outside the movement ever heard of them? Not many.

Consider that.

[trotsky]

25. Like the results of the Denver referendum?

Soundly defeating PETA's position?

Yeah, them's some results.

[Kanary]

27. Good point! There are still enough people smart enough

not to get dragged into silly positions.

Kanary

[Radical Activist]

33. I've never heard of it but

Was there a lot of press coverage of the referendum and the issues surrounding it? Sometimes that is the goal and having a discussion where there was none before is a victory.

I would love there to be a lot more public debate and discussion about the WTO/NAFTA/FTAA, and would be happy to see a group accomplish that by any means, even if it means a short-term loss.

[Kanary]

26. "Discussing issues" by impuning the character of those who don't agree?

Bush's methods are effective, also.

Kanary

[Radical Activist]

29. Are you talking about people on this board bad mouthing PETA?

because I don't see many logical arguments against PETA here. I just see name calling. Is that what you're talking about?

[Kanary]

38. You haven't seen *anything* saying how all of us who don't agree with

PETA are somehow less than human?

Maybe if you'd *SEE* that, maybe you'd figure out why you're not getting rounds of applause with all your "news releases"
"

[YellowRubberDuckie]

18. When someone who has no stake in veganism or animal rights says...

That meat will DEFINATELY cause Alzheimers, I'll think about not eating meat.
Duckie

[nini]

31. PETA is a perfect example of fanaticism gone wrong

while some of their points may be justified.. their tactics turn people off and no one pays attention to them anymore because of it.

[depakid]

32. Agree or disagree- like 'em or not

PETA does manage to get people's attention- and get them talking!

[RebelOne]

35. As a vegetarian and animal rights advocate, I feel that PETA

has done more good than harm. Though I don't agree with PETA on a lot of their issues, any organization that helps stop animal abuse is alright in my eyes.

[Kanary]

48. By whatever means necessary, eh?

That's how we got in a very ugly war.

Kanary

[RebelOne]

61. I don't think I said by whatever means necessary.

I did say that I do not agree with them on some of their issues and actions. I'm sorry, but I cannot stand animal cruelty. It seems that you do.

[Kanary]

62. ~~quirky shake of the head~~ theerrre yoouuu goooo agaaiiin...

Several of us have said to you quite clearly that when you insist on saying we're in favor of animal cruelty because we don't approve of the way you're going about it, you're using the same damned tactics of the RW.

I'm sure you"re smart enough to understand that basic.

When you want to treat me as a human being, let me know.

Kanary

[sandnsea]

52. Not anymore

When they started throwing paint at people they lost their credibility. PETA needs a new board of directors or something. This is just sensationalism, right up there with sensationalizing Laci Peterson in order to get fetuses declared human beings.

[Norquist Nemesis]

37. I support PETA's cause

but I'm greatly offended by their tactics. They are in the extreme and my conscience just won't let me be associated with them in any way.

[donsu]

40. I support PETA

denial will get you brainless

[UdoKier]

43. It's a terrible idea.

Most people who admire Reagan would not be remotely interested in a vegetarian diet.

Besides, the correlation between meat consumption and Alzheimer's that they cite is NOT the same thing as a causal relationship, therefore the Ad is also deceptive.

[amazona]

44. how mean-spirited can you get ?

I have ALzheimer's in the family. It is not caused by eating meat, although I sometimes wonder if one relative's eating disorder played a role. Making people afraid to eat does nothing to increase lifespan. It kills.

As for using the images of beloved people to promote their B.S. the Peta people should burn in hell for their insensitivity. I don't give a flying you-know about Reagan but I have an inkling about how hurtful this is from when they used the image of Kurt Cobain to promote some cause or another with the tagline about how you needed meat or fur (can't remember which) like you needed a hole in the head.

PETA has to be black ops. Has to be. Great way to discredit people who actually care about animals, people, and a safe diet.

They lie. Alzheimer's cannot be cured or prevented. Don't they know that people would do anything, give anything, if this were true?

[Fleshdancer]

46. Disgusting

Exploiting the disease and death of someone to further your social cause is gross. PETA talks a good game about the ethical treatment of animals, but if it's done at the expense of the ethical treatment of human beings, then for me, the message is lost.

To me, this is like the religious right taking out ads of people who have died of AIDS to further their fight against gay marriage. Insane.

[wolfgirl]

53. It makes all the sense

in the world...if you feed animals chenicals, and then you eat those same animals, the chemicals are going to pass to you.

There is some thought that girls are going through puberty earlier & earlier due to the second-hand ingestion of the various chemicals they are getting from meat. Think about it...it makes sense.

I'm not a big PETA supporter, but there is a grain of truth in this.

[LibLabUK]

54. Hmm..

"but there is a grain of truth in this. "

Where?

"It makes all the sense in the world...if you feed animals chenicals, and then you eat those same animals, the chemicals are going to pass to you.

There is some thought that girls are going through puberty earlier & earlier due to the second-hand ingestion of the various chemicals they are getting from meat. Think about it...it makes sense.
"

Support these statements, and show evidence that these "chemicals" cause harm in humans.

Or are you one of those people that believe "all chemicals cause harm"?

[kwolf68]

58. Duh!

It's a fact.

Familiar with DDT? Well, probably not, because you don't eat bald eagles.

Here's a story on Mercury in Salmon...oh yea, some Salmon you can't eat

http://www.healthcastle.com/salmon-safe-eat-mercury.shtml


Anything that is placed into the food chain will gravitate up that chain. This is very basic Ecology.

The debates can happen over what is good or bad for you, but otherwise Wolfgirl is factually pretty accurate.

[LibLabUK]

59. Hmm

The mercury in seafood, and salmon in your example, wasn't added to the animals as part of the farming process was it?

That's the point I was making.

I'm fully aware that persistent chemicals (DDT is a prime example) do indeed accumulate towards the top of the food chain. But it's worth remembering DDT had as unfortunate propensity for accumulating in the fatty tissue not all chemicals do this.

Using the term "chemicals" as a catchall is bad science, which is more what I was getting at. Water is a chemical, so is sugar (sucrose) and so is cyanide.

[LibLabUK]

60. dupe

dupe

[kwolf68]

55. Another PETA thread

I support the Humane Society of the US. They are far less abrasive than PETA, don't really promote the Vegan kick as much, but are dedicated to the humane treatment of animals.

[Eurobabe]

56. I think they're onto something re: antibiotics and hormones

in meat supply. This is why I have switched to buying organic meat with no garbage in it. Lost 15 lbs. in process!

HOWEVER, I think PETA is a bit of a loose cannon, and don't like people telling me how and what I should eat, thank you.

[Generator]

57. Can death be prevented?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...oh wait..everybody thinks it can..if you just do X.. well you will live to be 100 and then you still die!!!

I read that tobacco is good for Alzhemiers. Maybe Reagan should have smoked.

[bobbyboucher]

64. Peta is crazy............like a fox.

They made the news again and the premise of their claim is in the public conscienceness. Mission Accomplished.

[Corgigal]

65. I don't take PETA seriously

but I try to throw some money their way every year. Usually I do it because few organizations actually try to offend people and I'm sorry but I'm tired of safe whitebread crap. I like people be it right or wrong, who like to take on the fight. I think we Dems can learn a thing or two from them.