Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Is Our Freedom Already Gone?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 02:47 PM
Original message
Is Our Freedom Already Gone?
I wonder. FBI agents are making calls to people who might be protesters in NY. Who would ever have thought that would be possible. Even when we were protesting against Viet Nam we didn't worry about the FBI. Only preselected party members are allowed to hear Bush speak. (That is what Saddam Hussein used to do)

And how about Freedom of Speech? Have we lost it? I certainly don't feel like I can speak freely - I live in Kansas City - surrounded by Evangelicals and Pentacostals. I never speak my mind. The consequences simply aren't worth it.

I don't believe anything the government puts out. I am always looking for the "little noticed" next thing the administration has managed to get away with - mostly having to do with helping out big corporations and hurting our environment. Always finding the loophole in the system or a way to bypass Congress.

I have grown paranoid. I never used to be. I am very aware that I purposely live under the radar. I try to keep as low a profile as I possible can.

I am beginning to feel invisible.

I haven't ever felt this way before.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. The FBI has voluminous files on Kerry as vietnam protester, btw
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. They probably have files on me, too.
I used to love to picket. Just give me a sign and place to go and I'm a happy person.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, but maybe it can be restored
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I don't know.
I used to actually believe in Congress. I believed that they would always be there to protect us. But they weren't. They just got mowed down by the Rightwing. I don't like to even call this adm. Republican - they are simply evil.

But the problem with them is that they can really hurt people. Maybe the potential was always there but I was just too trusting. I could disappear over night and never be seen again. Secret detainees, they call them. And what did I do? Does it matter?

You know how scary this is getting to be?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yep. Anecdotal evidence from a New Yorker
This was related to me by a friend I trust, for what that's worth to people reading this on a message board.

This gentleman works at an NYC company not far from WTC. Like in The Matrix (and isn't that a close model of where we live now, metaphorically speaking and thanks to the Bushevik Totalitarian Media?) SS Men came in a took someone away from their desk at work, apparently for what Internet sites he visited.

The man disappeared, and was never seen from nor heard from again.

What deos this mean? Are a host of alternate explanations possible? Of course there are.

But the bottom line is that the the man disappeared without a trace. Perhaps he feared and fled, perhaps something more ominous.


Who can tell anymore how bad things TRULY are until, like in Nazi Germany, you become enmeshed in the widening Black Hole?

I don't know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yea, how do you know?
The Righwing has been very active in our part of the country for a long time.

Remember Kansas and the Creation vs Evolution fiasco? Well, now its going on countrywide. Everyone laughed when it happened in Kansas.

I want people to realize that Evangelicals and Pentacostals don't like other religions. Any other religions. They will work to destroy them all.

Listen to me! I sound completely crazy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. As crazy as a Jew in 1937 Nazi Germany
I want people to realize that Nazis don't like other races. Any other races. They will work to destroy them all.

Not crazy at all.

Humankind has been at 2004 before.

It was 1936.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Who would have ever thought things would come to this?
I'm too old. And now I know what people are really capable of. And it scares me. When I was younger I never realized how dangerous my political stand was. I never realized the way a lot of people think. How they want everyone to believe just like they do - or they get threatened. And threatened people are dangerous people.

We may end up with a new Underground Railroad - one that goes to Canada.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. It was never a threat to the nation until Checks and Balances began
to dissolve, to be PURPOSEFULLY DISSOLVED by 20 years worth of "Bushevik Solvent".

The Fouding Fathers created this nation with a blueprint for Moderation. It didn't always work eprfectly, but it continued to evolve to it's prupose, which was to keep extremism at bay, keep the citizenry free, and it gave us a framework in which the nation was gradually evolving to extend the Blessings of Liberty to ALL who conducted themselves as worthy members of society (to paraphrase George Washington).

Now that those Checks and Balances are erdoed almost beyond repair and we begin to taste the Iron Boot of Totalitarianism, stuff like this will continue to come out of the woodwork and rise.

Oh, it's always been around in one form or another, but such behaviors are very damned close to taking place with the tacit approval of the Imperials (if they don't give that already).

Certainly a growing minority their followers are almost as deliberately driven insane as any Nazi.

Without Checks and Balances to stop them, how long can we them from seizing our nation?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I DON'T KNOW
But I can tell you that Rightwingers never give up. They beleive they are on a mission for God. If they can't get through one way they back up and try another way.

And since they believe that everything they think comes directly from God and that they are God's missionaries on earth it is impossible to carry on any kind of a conversation about issues.

I guess we could burn crosses on their yards. Maybe we could dress in white sheets with pointy tops.

Oh, the irony of it all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. They never die either
But I can tell you that Rightwingers never give up.

They never seem to die either. You get one or two of them out of office and they just come back a few years later, more evil than before. I swear, watching the current cast of characters reminds me that many of these people have been in some position of power going all the way back to the Kennedy administration.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Yep. The murderers opf JFK, RFK, MLK rule us with iron fist
As likely had always been their intention.

Poppy Bush = Augutus
Bunnypants = Tiberius
??? = Nero & Caligula

(but we'll find out soon enough if the Imperials aren't stopped!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. The Pod People
And they are just so sure they are right and that they are doing God's will. And that the Rapture is coming any time now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. Holy Shite!!
I used to be joking, kind of, when I said "Welcome to the 4th Reich", but this is a bit too close to home! I wonder if I am next?

If this is true, it's absolutely horrifying!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. Sounds like the only danger to your freedoms are you.
And how about Freedom of Speech? Have we lost it? I certainly don't feel like I can speak freely - I live in Kansas City - surrounded by Evangelicals and Pentecostals. I never speak my mind. The consequences simply aren't worth it.

I don't believe anything the government puts out. I am always looking for the "little noticed" next thing the administration has managed to get away with - mostly having to do with helping out big corporations and hurting our environment. Always finding the loophole in the system or a way to bypass Congress.

I have grown paranoid. I never used to be. I am very aware that I purposely live under the radar. I try to keep as low a profile as I possible can.

I am beginning to feel invisible.

I haven't ever felt this way before.


Don't let your paranoias win.
Remember, They can't eat you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Read This
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5675992/site/newsweek/print/displaymode/1098/

Goss's Wish List

Rep. Porter Goss, President Bush's nominee to head the CIA, recently introduced legislation that would give the president new authority to direct CIA agents to conduct law-enforcement operations inside the US --including arresting American citizens.

The legislation, introduced by Goss on June 16 and touted as an "intelligence reform" bill, would substantially restructure the US intelligence community by giving the director of Central Intelligence (DCI) broad new powers to oversee its various components scattered thoughout the government.

snip

The language contained in the Goss bill has alarmed civil-liberties advocates. It also today prompted one former top CIA official to describe it as a potentially "drmatic" change in the guidelines that have governed US intell to operations for more than a half century.

snip
It goes on
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
16. They thought they were free
A German university professor’s account of what it was like to live during the rise of Hitler. Note the similarity to aspects of the contemporary political landscape.

“What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise, to receiving decisions deliberated in secret, to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand because of nationality security, so dangerous that even if the people the people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him may have incidentally have reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it. Their trust in him made it easier to reassure others who might have worried about it. ‘’This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real crises and reforms too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of the Government growing remoter and remoter .”
“ ‘The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was, above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your ‘little men,’ your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about—we were decent people—and kept us so busy with continuous changes and ‘crises’ and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the ‘national enemies,’ without and within, that we had no time to think about these things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?” (Ibid.; pp. 167-168.)
“ ‘To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it—please try to believe me—unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted,’ that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these ‘little measures’ that no ‘patriotic German’ could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.’” (Ibid.; p. 168.)
“ ‘How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated extraordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice—‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn’t, but they might have. And everyone counts on that might.’” (Idem.)
“ ‘Your Little Men, your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke too modestly of himself) and said that when the Nazis attacked the communists he was a little uneasy but, after all he was not a communist, and so he did nothing and then the schools, the press, the Jews , and so on, and he was always uneasier but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something, but then it was too late. “Yes I said” (Ibid.; pp.168-169.)
“You see,” my colleague went on, “one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me this is true. Each act, each shocking occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for that one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?--Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.” (Ibid.; p. 169.)
“Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, ‘everyone’ is happy one hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences in Germany, outside the great cities perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in you own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or you’re an alarmist.” (Idem.)
“And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end and how do you know or even surmise the end? On the one hand your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally people who have always thought as you have.” (Ibid.; p. 169-170.)
“But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to—to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are dong to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.” “But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in’43 had come immediately after the ‘German firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at step C. And so on to D.” (Ibid.; p.170-171.)
“And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them all rush in upon you the burden of self deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying “Jew swine’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in—your nation hour people –is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed, because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility, even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.” (Ibid.; p.171.)
“You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things that your father, even in Germany, could have imagined.
“Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven’t done (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing).” (Ibid.; pp. 171-172) This account is presented so that listeners may compare their own subjective reactions to the 2000 “electoral coup” with the professor’s reaction to the rise of Hitler.
www.spitfirelist.com/f268.html

(TheyThought they Were Free: The Germans 1933-1945; by Milton Mayer; copyright 1955 ; University of Chicago Press; ISBN 0-226-51190-1; pp. 166-167.)


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Thank you for that.
Maybe I am not so crazy after all.

Maybe it is because I have lived longer than a lot of people on this board. I know what can happen. What I didn't realize was how fast it can happen.

Osama doesn't need to attack again. All he has to do is make cheap tape of himself saying "boo."

One positive thing I have seen, though, is that Congress is beginning to wake up and fight back. That is really important.

Now if we could just get the press to start printing exactly what is happening and not coloring their coverage it would be helpful.

Long live John Burns of the New York Times. He just tells it like it is. And that is such a relief. Knowing that he is not filtering information. I know. How do I know that? I don't. I just watch him and I don't think he is lying.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. That's chilling...
It was written in 1955, yet it is an absolutely accurate description of what is happening in the United States right now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. note:
If you further search the FTR archives....Governing by surprise, is a favorite theme of Schwarzenegger.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC