The war probably would have been a good thing if done right...

[bpilgrim]

how many DU'ers believe that?

they are saying that on AAR :puke:

peace

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. Who is saying this?

Bob Graham said that Saddam was the wrong target and that we must take out the Real Terrorists like Hamas, Al-Quiada, and deal with the Saudi's ties to Terrorists. I opposed this stupid war because it cause and it has, sensless deaths that have made us less safe.

For the record, I supported Bob Graham and then he dropped out so I went to Clark.

[bpilgrim]

14. the blogger they have on 'Majority Report' all the time...

atrios(sp?)

i think this maybe knee jerk coverage for our man kerry's insensitive comment the other day.

:shrug:

peace

[madfloridian]

44. Atrios said that?

That I would call overboard.

[Sandpiper]

2. A good thing?

When is sacrificing lives for no real reason a good thing?

[bpilgrim]

17. only when your protecting your homeland

but you did say 'for no REAL reason' and i would agree i don't see ANY justification even the one they use 'DEMOCRACY' which we haven't seen a TRACE of since the invasion.

:argh:

peace

[greatauntoftriplets]

3. Please pass me a bucket -- QUICK!!!!

Is there any "right" way to kill people -- whether innocent or not) -- and rain death and destruction on a country???

And, to drive the point home, check out the latest at Iraq Body Count.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

:hi:

[bpilgrim]

18. here ya go...

make sure you refill it before ya pass it on ;->

:hi:

peace

[AlCzervik]

4. My friend used to give me

shit all the time before the war started and after for not supporting the invasion, she just couldn't get it through her head that i thought it was wrong with or without internationial support. She thought that until she saw F911 and when we got out she was so angry with herself that she told me she was sorry for being so unwilling to listen. I will never think this war was the right thing to do....ever.

[bpilgrim]

22. glad to hear she was open minded enough to go see it

and willing to admit she was wrong... sounds like a good friend.

:hi:

peace

[jmags]

5. If it were done competently

the situation would obviously be a lot better. One can only wonder how different Iraq would look if the US had not only guarded the Oil Ministry, or disbanded the entire Iraqi army with nothing for them to fall back on, or used some of the billions of tax dollars on employing Iraqi's to rebuild their own country instead of Halliburton.

I don't think we'd have 1000 dead right now, but it still wouldn't have been "right", and it still wouldnt' have been a "good thing".

[bpilgrim]

21. agreed

:hi:

peace

[pbg]

6. Sure

If the Xtreme G.I.Joe Ultra-Ninja Penetration Ranger Seals force had just parachuted in and shot a few guards, slit a few throats (and the blood goes hissssss!) and taken Saddam, Uday and Qusay out and made it out of there in a breakneck midnight Hummer and dunebuggy chase through the midnight desert--why then shore!
It'd be great! Initials on the screen!

But that's the "Saddam was a bad man" war.

The WMD war?

The Bring Democracy to Iraq War? The Shining Example War?

The Show The Towelheads that you Don't Fuck with Toby Kieth war?

When you come down to it, America doesn't have any idea which war they're fighting--which people are beginning to wake up to, and which is the thing that'll doom Bush.

One fact emerges: GWB is losing ALL of them.

[bpilgrim]

24. bush is a RADICAL

shuts up real conservatives in a heartbeat.

peace

[eridani]

7. Invading a sovereign country which is no threat to you is evil, period.

No one seems to remember that quite a few dictators have been overthrown by their own people. Remove the sanctions in return for permanent weapons inspections, and Saddam would likely have eventually become one of them.

[Cleita]

11. I think you are right.

This invasion was so wrong on so many levels. Nothing happens that doesn't have repercussions whether immediate or in the distant future. This will come back to haunt us for a long time.

[indepat]

13. Also illegal, unnecessary, immoral, inhumane, and unjust, but that seems

no matter nary a whit to maybe about 50% of Americans.

[bpilgrim]

25. yeah, thats the point that is NEVER discussed in the media

we are behaving JUST LIKE imperial japan with their GEACPS plan for ASIA.

but that REALITY is too radical to jive with cartoon world view the media AND our leadership perpetuate.

:scared:

peace

[kiahzero]

43. Protecting ethnic Albanians in Kosovo was evil?

If we had intervened in Rwanda, it would have been evil? If we intervene in Sudan, it will be evil?

How... interesting.

[eridani]

48. Yes, what that did was promote the ethnic cleansing of Serbs---

--and other minorities in Kosovo by the Albanian majority, who are only a majority in the first place because of their enthusiastic support of the Nazi-backed killing of 500,000 Serbs in WW II.

Milosevic was attempting to deal with this perfectly legitimate problem with thuggish Ariel Sharon-style methods. The Serbian Parliament, realizing how counterproductive this was, passed a resolution to put the province under a UN mandate. This was ignored in favor of an aerial assault on a civilian population. So yes, that was evil.

As far as Rwanda, no possible intervener would want to plant permanent military bases there to dominate the place, so that would have been different.

[Lefty Pragmatist]

8. The thing is

the action in Afghanistan *was* a good thing, and it killed plenty of people just as dead as in Iraq, and plenty of them were innocent. So was the US action in WW2, where we contributed to the deaths of millions, plenty of whom just wanted to go on with their checkers and not ef with anybody.

The Iraq invasion would have been justified under certain circumstances:
+ direct aid by Saddam of AQ
+ a threat on the US by Saddam
+ WMD

None of those was true, and it was known at the time that they weren't true, so it was a put up job and not a "good" action.

Just as there are things worth risking your life defying the system for, there are things worth using the military and risking your and other's lives for. Pacifism is cute, but outside of a college campus or a stoner town it only works in a world that accepts it universally.

[bpilgrim]

27. Afghanistan isn't even 'WON' yet that was a 'good THING'?

oh, really...

'Pacifism is cute'

wtf does that got to do with ANYTHING mentioned in my post?

i'm lost...

peace

[DemWitch]

9. Our actions in Afghanistan were justified.

And if, IF we would have finished the job, I think (and this is only my opinion, wrong or right) there would have been a major shift in the balance of power in the Middle East with Afghanistan going democratic anyway. But Shrubya, being Idiot Child that he is and listening to the neo-con chickenhawks around him totally screwed up the whole thing. Now we are going to be seen as invaders for the next 5 generations or so.

[Piperay]

19. I agree

Afganistan was where the money and troops should be, chimp is an idiot who had to go on the cheap and botch that whole thing up. :argh:

[Djinn]

23. not so sure I agree

the Taliban had agreed to hand over anyone that the US had proof of committing terrorist acts. Now some may say the Taliban weren't to be trusted but apparently they were trustworthy enough to wine and dine over pipeline deals. Instead we blanket bombed a nation with fuck all left to bomb and gave the country back to a pack of murderous rapists.

[DrWeird]

32. All of the actions were justified?

bombing the red cross building?

bombing the wedding ceremony?

mistreating and killing the prisoners?

Or just in the sense that we went after Osama, even though we didn't really go after Osama?

[FreakinDJ]

10. Agreed going after REAL Terrorist was a good cause

but then again that was a big part of the arguement against the Iraq war.

Saddam was contained and NO THREAT to the US

Osama got away

Bush and Cheney have been playing 911 for all it is worth. T

THEY USED THOSE VICTIMS OF 911

THEY RAIDED THE US TREASURY IN THE NAME OF 911

THEY STARTED AN UNJUST WAR UNPROVOKED AND FOR OIL IN THE NAME OF 911

and they continue to wave the flag in the name of the 911 victims. It is the most open public display of greed, hate, and down right dishonesty I have ever witnessed.

I am actually shocked any one can support these guys and call their self an American

[bpilgrim]

29. but when have we done that?

SA, pakistan are still our best buds.

"I am actually shocked any one can support these guys and call their self an American"

agree 100%

:hi:

peace

[FreakinDJ]

40. Thanks for making sense in a scary time for america

[Jacobin]

12. Dingbats.

Who in his right mind would think that Iraqis would welcome infidels to conquer and occupy their country?

The naivete is breathtaking, even after the last fourteen months.

[bpilgrim]

30. yeah

especially after the last 14 months.

:hi:

peace

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. That's what the Germans said after things got messy in Russia.

Everything would have been rosy if them durned Russkis would have been happy to have been "liberated".

The revisionists say the same thing about Vietnam.

[bpilgrim]

31. and what the japanese said after PH.

if the americans would have took the hint and stayed out of their way in asia.

:hi:

peace

[southernleftylady]

16. isnt that what they say about vietnam too? nt

[bpilgrim]

33. yep

but it's a new generation who never heard these excuses before. :shrug:

peace

[NoPasaran]

20. If the war had been "done right"

We wouldn't have invaded a country without cause

Without allies

Without realistic and achievable goals

[bpilgrim]

34. bingo

and an exit strat from the CHAMPION and AUTHOR of that very principal :puke:

peace

[dogman]

26. Did they say King George should have ridden his horse, leading his Crusade

with all of his noble Lords flanking him?

[bpilgrim]

35. don't give'em no ideas

i'd hate to see that on the teeVee one day =)

:hi:

peace

[bvar22]

45. Don't worry. You won't see gwbush* riding a horse.

He is afraid of horses.
This was revealed during his first State Visit to Mexico. Presidente Fox had scheduled a horseback session that bunny had to back out of because of his fear of horses.
Not reported in the US, but really embarrassing considering the latino machismo thing.


On Edit: This fear is probably rational considering his poor performance on bicycles and Segways. bush* should stay away from any animals that are smarter than he is.

[Zynx]

28. Sure, if Saddam was removed and no innocent people were killed.

The issue is that the cost is far too high for a low-grade humanitarian mission that was billed as a war of national security. There was NO THREAT to this country from Iraq.

[bpilgrim]

36. which everyone knows is impossible...

i hope :scared:

:hi:

peace

[Zorra]

37. Yeah, just like attacking Venezuela would be a good thing if done right?

:puke:

They'll use the same reasoning to attack Chavez as they did Iraq.

Maybe that's why Bu$h is pulling the troops out of Asia and Europe.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Feanorcurufinwe]

39. Typically dishonest mischaracterization.

:puke:

[JanMichael]

41. Ouch. Who uttered that nonsense?

No, I don't want to know.

[latebloomer]

42. Horse manure!

The war was crap, from prologue to current quagmire. There was never any benefit in it for anyone but greedy corporate pigs.

Afghanistan was a crock as well. Fifteen Saudis (supposedly, tho Goddess knows what really happened) commit mass murder and you go after Afghanistan? Makes perfect sense to me :eyes:

[Disturbed]

46. J. Kerry and J. Edwards may come around...

when Iraq implodes and Afghanistan is only controlled in Kabul. The two invasions were stupid and made the US less safe, cost a lot of lives and the MC tax payer billions but the Neo Fascists and their Corp. funders all made millions, some billions and will for awhile with those invasions.

[Djinn]

47. bingo

I have never understood the "bombing afghanistan was a legit response after 9/11" theory. How 'bout bombing Saudi - how was 9/11 supposed to organised from a country like Afghanistan, how was it financed from a country like Afghanistan?