Outsourcing in the medical professions has arrived!

[Veggie Meathead]

Two months ago, my father who is 77 years old, needed catarct surgery in his eyes and was told by his insurance company that he can get this done in India at a very reasonable price that would not jack up his insurance rate.The insurance company also offered to pay his airfare to India in addition to all his bills.My dad called his doctor in Chennai ( which used to be called Madras) and she examined him on the internet and scheduled his surgery.He left on a tuesday
evening and reached Madras on a thursday.His surgery was scheduled for the saturday morning.He came back home ten days later and could not say enough good things about his doctor, the staff and the care he received.His total bill came to less than $1100.00 which included
his private room, medications and the surgeon's fees.

At this rate, I cannot see how our doctors can compete with the doctors in India especially if the insurance companies are behind this move.My dad said he also saw many patients from UK, Europe and Japan getting very advanced procedures done like open heart surgery,lung, heart, kidney and liver transplants all at a fraction of the cost here.

So watch out for the outsourcing craze to go upscale in the near future.My dad was also surprised to learn that some of our universities like Harvard, MIT, Stanford are opening up campuses in India and hiring Indian Professors to do the teaching.

I told my dad I am glad that the Indian people worship cows so we don't have to worry about the jobs at McDonald's moving out.

[brainshrub]

1. Are you serious?

What insurance company? I don't believe this.

[Veggie Meathead]

3. I do not have the name of the Insurance company my dad uses,but

check back with him and post it later.I think this makes sense to me because considering the enormous cost savings and the vast number of good hospitals and doctors and nursing staff available in India, this would be a natural move to reduce our medical costs.Watch for more and more of it.The Eurpoeans and the Japanese are already aware of this and it is just going to be a matter of time when we too have to join the crowd.

[madmax]

6. This then flys in the face of the argument against socialized

medicine here in the U.S. Whenever, the issue is brought up those who have a stake $$ point to the Canadian system and state that the Canadain system is so flawed that those who need care are forced to come to the to the US for treatment. I don't understand!!!

[Veggie Meathead]

10. It really is not a case for socialized medicine per se because the

medical professions in India are completely private and so are the pharmaceutical companies.But because the Universities in India graduate a vast number of medical graduates and nurses and medical techs,the professional services are not vastly overpriced and this makes it possible to provide services very fast and at a very competitive rate.In a way India's medical system is a very strong case for privatized medicine and not socialized medicine at all.

You may also want to see the most recent issue of Scientific American on how clinical trials of new drugs are now being carried out in India
by Pfizer, Bristol-Myers, Eli Lilly and others.It will be a matter of
time before all our drugs are manufactured, tested and approved in India, too.

[madmax]

18. So why the fight against Americans buying drugs from

overseas? Leave it to the big business and the politicians to fuck up a wet dream.

[FlaGranny]

4. You might get ready

to start to believe. It has been common practice to "outsource" to other countries for elective procedures for some time. If you want plastic surgery you can go to Mexico, India, or wherever, and have your surgery. The cost of surgery, airfare, and a minivacation is cheaper than staying home and having the procedure done in a local hospital or doctor's office. It isn't so far fetched that insurance companies take notice and recommend patients do this.

[havocmom]

2. Some lab tests go overseas too, I believe. Read about it couple years

ago. Test info goes overseas for interpretation and reports. No wonder it takes so long to hear back from your physician.

So, pResident bush*, tell me again how this outsourcing makes me safer?

[spooked]

5. Wow, I hadn't thought of Insurance companies flying patients to India

[madmax]

7. But, but...conservatives are against importing drugs into the US

claiming they aren't safe or FDA approved. Why would you trust a foreign Dr. in a foreign country who hasn't been certified by US standards. This is just crazy.

[Veggie Meathead]

11. Many Indian doctors have gone to some of our finest medical schools and

are board certified surgeons with a lot of years of medical practice in the US.

[madmax]

16. I have no problem with Indian doctors... but are all of them

board certified surgeons with lots of years of medical practice in the US. Will this be stipulated by the insurnace companies that send thier insured to India for surgery?

[Veggie Meathead]

21. Of course not all of them can be board certified surgeons in the

US.But the Indian and American Medical Associations have reciprocal agreements on certification and accreditation.Also many of the Professors at India's Medical Schools are people with the kind of experience we are talking about.

[madmax]

30. Since my Rheumatologist is Indian perhaps he can offer a discount

and perform surgery here in the US, if I it comes to that.

I do NOT fly. :evilgrin:

[dorktv]

62. I know a conservative who favors reimportation.

I told Hayworth that it is stupid to import the drugs back to the US when we could just elimenate that part and install price controls. Cuts down the government nonsense too.


Shall we say, he did not agree?

[Spinzonner]

8. And try and sue your Indian practitioners for malpractice

[yella_dawg]

9. I'd bet a jury

would cheerefully nail an insurance company for suggesting that you go to India to get a botched operation. A whole new area for Lawyers opens up.

[Veggie Meathead]

17. I am sure that our insurance companies have thought about this.

This is why my dad was offered this as an option.He could have elected to get his surgerey done here but was told that it may impact his rates later.Any one in my dad's position would also do the same thing.

[Mandate My Ass]

12. Radiology is being outsourced too

I work in the Radiology Department of a major metropolitan hospital and I've heard they are going to begin outsouring x-rays done at night so that a radiologist does not have to work nights, or even be on call. I believe Australia won the contract.

Prior to this residents would interpret the scans but they couldn't be used diagnostically until a staff radiologist arrived the next morning.

[AlCzervik]

13. My health care provider

Kaiser already sends out most of their xrays to India unless it's for a critical patient.

[Veggie Meathead]

15. With new digital XRay technology, there is even no need to send any films.

The XRays can be displayed on the internet to be read by the radiologists in India..

[madmax]

22. How do they send them?

via Computer or mail? Does this increase the chances of mix ups?

[Veggie Meathead]

23. These are sent on secure lines just like your financial data from banks.

[AlCzervik]

26. what veggie said

they claim it's on for non-critical but i'm sure there have been screw-ups.

[PatriotGames]

14. It is obvious that something needs to be done before there is no such

thing as a professional US citizen.

[madmax]

27. My thoughts exactly

:wtf: are our kids suppose to do for a living?? Where the hell is our country going? I don't know what to advise my grandkids to do about a career. Everything is being outsourced.

[DaveFL99]

35. But wouldn't that be racist

[PatriotGames]

44. How so? Just protect US jobs. That's all I ask for.

I don't care where they are shipping them. Just stop shipping them out!

[DaveFL99]

46. But we can help to reduce poverty in India and bring about a better global

distribution of income by outsourcing US jobs.

[PatriotGames]

49. That's a nice gesture, but I am still for the USA first and for our jobs.

[HughBeaumont]

50. That's a noble thought, but

why does it have to be at the EXPENSE of an American worker? If they're so smart and intelligent and they have a fair share of job-creating venture capitalists, why is it that they're still sucking the teat of American business at the expense of American workers? Why can't they create their OWN infrastructure, their OWN software companies, their OWN businesses, their OWN metrorails?

[Veggie Meathead]

54. In the 60 Minutes segment one poster talks about,the President

of a giant Indian software company says that India's real asset is its intellectual capital ( as in well trained professionals) in large numbers.So, he says India has chosen to export this capital to make up
for its lack of physical capital.He also says that this intellectual capital is highly mobile and can be deployed in any part of the world at short notice.He pointed out that India's doctors now run many of the hospitals in the Middle East,many southeast Asian countries.
One of the things he said stuck in my mind:Geography is history".
This means that we have to be prepared for a large wave of professional people ( Accountants, lawyers, doctors, nurses, techs etc) brought in to do a job at cut rate wages and go home and turn around and go somewhere else.

If the model I speak about comes about, we ( and more correctly, our children) will have no place to hide.

[DaveFL99]

56. I wonder where Americans will fit in in the Indian Caste system.

[NashVegas]

19. I've Seen This

maybe it was 60 Minutes or something.

Crazy shit. I wonder what they'll do when the oil runs out?

[onecitizen]

20. hmmmmm.......

it was bound to happen. I know that now some of our X-rays are read by doctors in other countries(like India)via the internet. Scary stuff, IMO.

[onebigbadwulf]

24. Well this makes me want to stay in NZ.

American health care sounds like it's on the verge of collapse.

[Veggie Meathead]

31. It is not just the American Medical System that feels the impact.

As my dad said, many patients from Britain told him that the waiting time in the UK for open heart surgery in their socialized medical system can run into months or even years.In India it can be scheduled
on the phone within a week.This alone makes many people in UK and Europe want to go to India.Of course, the low costs are gravy too.

I think this relentless move to lower cost countries is going to gather more and more momentum in the next ten years because a first rate surgeon in India only makes $5000.00 a year while comparable surgeons in the US may make upwards of $1MM or more.As an enormous number of medical graduates emerge from India's many fine universities, the economic forces will fill the vacuum.

[charlie105]

41. That's incorrect. A first rate surgeon in India makes upwards of

$75000 per year. Not nearly as much as one would make here but not as cheap as $5k either.

[Veggie Meathead]

45. That depends on the discipline.Of course, cardiac surgeons make

as much as you say.But ophthalmic surgeons like the one my dad saw makes in the neighborhood of 5-10 K a year, no more.

[Veggie Meathead]

48. One other important point.Even experienced surgeons in India are paid a

lot less for each procedure than here.This too reduces the patient's costs.This means that a surgeon who makes 75K in India is likely to
perform four times as many procedures in a year as a surgeon in the US.

[DaveFL99]

64. Damn the they should become programmers because they make $8,000 a year

[Veggie Meathead]

68. This is also misleading.$8000 would be for a very experienced

programmer.The low end of the range is as low as $1500 a year.

[bemildred]

25. Bet on it.

Lawyers better watch their ass too.

[Veggie Meathead]

28. And Accountants.And Research Scientists.And,and,and ..............

[bemildred]

32. Yep.

I read a story the other day that said it might be good for
young people to go into plumbing and carpentry, and other things
that you have to be there physically to do. Return of the
blue collar aristocracy. I have a feeling that with the decline
of cheap oil, people who know how to farm in the old style could
be doing well in a decade of so.

[hatrack]

53. No, no - to replace them, we'll import skilled Mexican & Chinese plumbers

We wouldn't want anyone here making too much money, would we now?

[bemildred]

55. True, we are already doing that in spades. nt

[Zero Gravitas]

63. Exactly

Thats why Former Governor Bush* proposed that "guest worker" program...

[TNDemo]

29. Virtual surgery - surgery is being outsourced also - with you here.

http://www.csiro.au/index.asp?type=mediaRelease&id=PrSwedenVirtualSurgery

Here's an article.

[trof]

33. Does your father live in the U.S.?

This is amazing.

[Veggie Meathead]

34. Yes.

[madmax]

36. I've been googling around and found this link

http://www.acgil.com/medical_outsourcing/delhi_medical_tourism.htm

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2004/02/outsourcing_med.html

Thanks for starting this thread, Veggie.

[Veggie Meathead]

40. Thanks, MadMax.Like you, I am also very worried about my children's future

As I see this trend picking up there seems to be no profession that is going to be unscathed.While I can understand the historic and financial forces that are shaping these changes, I am only worried about my children and what their future is going to look like.I wish somebody a lot wiser than I am has some answers.

[bmbmd]

37. With regard to Homeland Security

There will apparently be fewer foreign physicians allowed into this country on the J-1 Visa program. Hence, fewer providers in our already overburdened health care system. Already seeing a lot of dental work in Mexico,particulary dentures, implants, and bridgework. It can be done across the river for ten cents on the dollar. We are also seeing lots of meds being bought otc in Juarez and Tiajuana.

[sadiesworld]

59. Nope.

If the Indo-US FTA goes through, tons of Indian docs-no visa required. Oops, how racist of me.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[charlie105]

39. Only $1100? Is that for the procedure only? I ask because the

air-fare alone could be about $1600 - coach. I know because I've been there.

[Veggie Meathead]

42. My dad told me that the $1100 was for all the expenses except

airfare.

[charlie105]

43. That sounds about right. Especially if the clinic has an agreement

with the insurance company and has discounted rates.

[treepig]

66. eeehhhh, i tried to get a ticket to india on 10 days notice

and it cost $6,000.

something seems to be awry with this account. . .

[Veggie Meathead]

67. You can go to many websites and buy tickets to India for a lot less.

The ticket costs range from $1200 to 1600 coach roundtrip.You must have been robbed.

[treepig]

69. guess it depends if you want your frequent flier miles

i didn't go, btw, so no, i wasn't actually robbed.

[progressivebydesign]

47. No... no way!

How in the WORLD would a medical profession or insurance company think that flying someone across the world for surgery would be a good idea. The stress of the flight on the immune system, after surgery, well, it makes no sense to me. And.. umm... I had a friend who travelled through India. She was hit with a bout of pneumonia. She was put in a bed with another woman. Not a room, a BED, with another patient. It was an older woman dying of something. The rooms were packed with people, two to a bed. The care was terrible, the hospitals were dirty.

I suspect these offshore clinics are AMERICAN COMPANIES, catering to the non-Indian population, to avert medical insurance, unionized nurses, and other costs that ensure proper care. It's like I tell my stepdaughter. The reason that a 6.7 earthquake can hit somewhere outside of the U.S., and kill thousands, yet can hit here.. and kill less than 10, is that our rules and regulations make things safer. Yes, they cost more, but they are there for a reason.

There is NO WAY IN HELL I would fly to another country for medical care. I would take the case to court so fast, if the insurance company pushed the issue. This stuff needs to be publicized. I'm sorry.. so what exactly are the career choices in the new Corporate Bush economy??? Now that teaching (see charter school story on Barbara Bush), nursing, doctoring, computing, customer service, etc. are all being outsourced now. We are all becoming fucking SERVANTS!!!! Now that 50% of the U.S. wealth is in the hands of 20% of the people.. do you all see where we are headed?? We will be cleaning the houses of those 20% just to stay afloat. Something has to change. NOW!

[Veggie Meathead]

51. My dad told me that the eye surgery was done in a first rate

hospital and he had a private room.This was located in a hill resort area called Ooty about 300 Km(200 miles from Madras.He said it was a very pleasant place.

[Davis_X_Machina]

52. Ootacamund was one of the hill stations...

..British government used to go up into the hills during the hot season.

Ooty's website.

[DaveFL99]

58. And I bet all the people were lovely.

India is the land of Ghandi ! All the people love and respect each other. It's a veritable eutopia. I can't wait until the US is just like India. We'll all be able to attend a fine university when not practicing Yoga.

[DaveFL99]

57. Now that's economical

"She was hit with a bout of pneumonia. She was put in a bed with another woman. Not a room, a BED, with another patient"

[FlaGranny]

60. You have to remember that these clinics

in India (and elsewhere) are specifically set up to attract foreign patients. They wouldn't get any business if they were run-of-the-mill third world clinics.

[Veggie Meathead]

65. You are correct.The clinic my dad went to was essentially catering

to patients from UK,Europe, Japan and other Asian countries.The Indian patients who use these tend to be from the upper middle classes who can afford the costs.

[bleedingheart]

71. I have to agree with you, this story seems really oddball

not to discredit the poster but I find it really hard to believe.

Now I do know that radiology, medical billing and other things are being outsourced but having US citizens go overseas for small procedures seems really stupid far too many liabilities.

[Neshanic]

61. Flight boarding, we are taking respiratory patients, then broken bones.

Please show your medical record for boarding, and remember that IBS patients have priority on the bathrooms. IV's will be dispensed prior to the meds cart.

Have a happy flight.

This has to be the nightmare scenario. 2025...I am sorry sir but our hernia flights are booked, and we could squeeze you in later in the year. 2025 HMO's record record profits, and their Ceo's gaze over a garbage strewn India with medical waste being picked over by the homeless.

Meanwhile back in the Ol' USA, the three medical care classes; the rich who pay to be treated here, the small middle who have to schlep over to India, and the majority....no care at all.

[harper]

70. I'd don't know if I buy this story or not

But I do know that tons of Medical Transcription is being outsourced to India. And lots of pressure is being put on the Medical Transcriptionist here to work at home as private contractors.

[drbtg1]

72. I guess I'm part of the evil empire here

Two points (but first of all, I don't make anywhere near $1M. I play Powerball like everyone else.)

1.) The Indian doctors I talk to in my profession who have moved to America tell me they feel the actual classroom education they got in grad school was equivalent to here (similar textbooks, etc.) But the materials were much more inferior. Too expensive, plus they couldn't get company reps over so that they could even try different materials. That's part of a medical education too.

2.) I have seven employees in my practice. I made sure everyone here has health insurance (out of my pocket, no salary deductions here), paid vacations, even the part-timers get sick time. I'd like to think I treat them well. Now I read this stuff and think of that often quoted stat around here "Two Wal-Mart jobs replaces every three quality jobs". Well, I think I found the next field of business Wal-Mart will expand to. Mine.