Israel is a socialist country? From WSJ 8/18/04 story.

[fob]

First of all, no flamebait intended or implied.

I just picked up yesterdays WSJ (something to read during lunch)and noticed a little snippet at the bottom of the front page, (no link, I'm retyping from the paper version);

Netanyahu's Striking Stance"
Israel's finance chief has taken a pickax to picketing, confronting the nation's legions of strikers in a bid to reverse decades of socialism - and win the top job.A9

From the story; By Karby Leggett (Hatzor HaGalilit, Israel)

In 32 years as this town's official grave digger and expert on religious burials, Daniel Abokasis never turned down a request for help. Until this year, when he went on strike.

"I had no choice-the government stopped paying my salary," complains Mr Abokasis.
<end snip>

I only bring this up that I was surpised NOT to have known that. It's fine by me, what do I care what system they choose really. Also I wondered if those that support Israel beyond any doubt AND call Democrats "socialists", like it's a bad thing, know this.

Is this common knowledge? So Israel is a Democratic Socialist State?


How do the pro-Israel freeper types sqiare that circle?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Israel Has A Nice Welfare State....

nt

[lostnfound]

16. A kibbutz always sounded like a pretty leftwing idea, isn't it? nt

[Classical_Liberal]

28. The Kibbutznics were lefties.

.

[Classical_Liberal]

2. It's a social democracy with a welfare state.

. It has been under attack by Netenyahu for several years now. Though he loves socialism for settlers.

[fob]

3. So what drives bush* and his ilk to overlook what they hold to be

the major no-no of socialism?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. Common Heritages And Political Institutions....

Historical Ties....


Isreal is a socialist state in the sense that France, the UK, and Germany are socialist states....


There is a large private sector with some government ownership of major enterprises and a strong welfare state...

[Classical_Liberal]

6. There really is no explaining the treatment both parties give

European Social Democracy and Israeli Social Democracy, and the treatment it gives the Latin American and African countries that have tried to develop them like Venezuela. The first two are tolerated, the last type is to be overthrown and replaced with a dictatorship. Best I can figure is basic contempt for black and brown people.

[IronLionZion]

13. probably

even Israelis have contempt for black and brown Jewish Israelis.

I would love for someone to explain to me how a nation with an apartheid system that doesn't let people of a certain religion vote, is a democracy.

[The Magistrate]

20. That Question, Sir, Is Based On Faulty Premises

All adult citizens of Israel have the fight to vote, and they generally do, irrespective of their ethnic origin or their religion. About a sixth of the citizenry is Arab, and they vote at about the same rate as Jews. Those Arab Palestinians living in the lands overrun in '67 do not vote in Israel's elections: they are not citizens of Israel, and that land is not a part of Israel, so it is hard to see any reason they should cast a ballot in Israeli elections.

Whether there is more or less ordinary prejudice in Israel than in other places in the world is debateable, though rather beside the point. These are general human failings, encountered where-ever human beings organize themselves into societies. Generally, people prefer what is like themselves to what is dissinilar, and feel their own ways superior to those of others.

[IronLionZion]

29. not part of Israel eh?

then maybe it should be independent!

I'm not buying the "occupied territory" bullshit. That land has been under Israeli control since 1967. How long does it take to get your act together? Either they are a democracy or they are not. There can't be democracy for Israelis and fascism for occupied arabs!

[The Magistrate]

33. An Independent Arab Palestinian State On That Land, Sir

Would be an excellent idea; the Arab Nationalist leadership ought to declare one. In doing so, of course, they would have to declare some limit to their borders, and accept as a matter of fact the existance of Israel, and that seems to present dome difficulty.

The legal status of the land, however, is that it is no part of Israel, and exists under occupation by that power: no real question about this exists. Annexation of it by Israel would be illegal.

[IronLionZion]

34. The Arab and Jewish leadership are full of right-wing lunatics

that refuse to compromise. But Israel already has a state with borders and everything, so it is their moral obligation to free Palestine. That land is causing way too much grief for everyone involved, even us. Why hang on to it?

[theboss]

25. All Israeli Citizens vote...including Arabs

Arabs in Israel proper are the only Arabs in the Middle East with full voting rights in a democracy. There are Arabs in the the Knesset.

People on this site need to stop this apartheid bullshit. The West Bank is an occupied territory. It's not part of Israel proper so its citizens do not vote in elections.

[Classical_Liberal]

27. It is settled territory that has been settled since 1967

with long periods of relative peace. These settlers live in Permanent Housing, with full voting rights in Israel even though they live in the occupied territory just like most of the Palestinians, who are not allowed to vote because they live in occupied territories. These settlers are served by Israeli only roads, and are surrounded by a cement wall, that was very expensive to build. These settlers are allowed to destroy Palestinian olive groves while the IDF watches and does nothing. They are allowed to build squatter camps on land owned by Palestinians while the IDF watches and does nothing. These camps end up somehow with state built paved roads leading to them and somehow end up with electricity supplying them, despite the fact that they are illegal. According to the Geneva Conventions occupying countries aren't allowed to settle their citizens in occupied territories. When is it going to end? Until the settlements are dismantled and or the Palestinians are given voting rights it deserves the Apartheid label.

Also Egyptians have full voting rights in their country and several other Arab countries have elected Parliaments.

[IronLionZion]

32. occupied territory!

Texas and the South are occupied territory. We shouldn't allow them to vote! Hell yeah! Then we can hide our darkies in low-paying jobs so the world will think all Americans are light-skinned! Then we can have Israeli-style democracy yay!

God damn it! Israel can not possibly be a democracy while denying those folks human rights, let alone voting rights. I don't give a flying fuck what the arabs in other countries do. Nobody would confuse them with democracy. People on this board need to stop saying this "Israel is a democracy" bullshit.

1967-2004 is 37 long bloody years. How long does it take to either free or give freedoms to that "occupied territory"? Those are living breathing human beings there.

[leftistagitator]

7. Biblical prophecy

Repugs believe that Jesus is going to come back any day now, but in order for that to happen Israel must exist. That's what all this crap is about, we are trying to create the conditions laid out in the Bible that Jesus needs before he can come back. Some Orthodox Jews are also trying to speed the process of the coming of the Jewish Messiah, although they obviously don't think that it will be Jesus. The odd thing is the differences in the prophecies, Orthodox Jews think Israel must be it's original size and contain all the world's Jews before the Messiah will come, Christians are not so demanding. It is enough for them that Israel is there, and they support anyhing thing Israel does because they believe it to be the Godly thing to do. Of course, when Jesus does come back he will send the majority of Jews into the lake of fire, but that's no reason to ruin a perfectly good alliance of convenience.

[lottie244]

15. Hey, anything Israel does is ok. Socialism is fine as long as it doesn't

help poor people and the disadvantaged in the US. Capitalism has been a mirage for some time in this country. We too are a socialist democracy. The big differnece is that the government in the US subsidizes corporations and the wealthy instead of the masses of poor and underprivileged.

[durutti]

5. Israel was once considered a leftist country.

Many early Zionists were indeed socialists. They Israeli Labor Party, as I understand it, was rejected from the Comintern.

Today, of course, it's gone the way of every other Western country and destroyed its welfare state.

[baldguy]

8. Most western democracies ARE socialist states.

Welfare is the civilized way to treat the poor.

[theboss]

9. Why do you think Democrats are the strongest supporters of Israel?

Once again, I have to be the DU historian. For fifty years, Democrats were typically the stronger champion for Israel, while Republicans remained more or less neutral on the issue of Israeli independence. They never openly opposed it and didn't exactly support the Palestinians, but they thought it was a quasi-communist state. And Right-wingers are always far more suspect of "dual loyalties." And they flat-out distrust Jews (there I said it).

Somewhere along the line, the Left lost its collective mind, ignored history and decided that the Palestinians were an oppressed minority in a fascist state. I've never exactly figured out when or how this happened, but it did result in the utter lunacy of Arafat winning a fucking Nobel Peace Prize, thus rendering the entire concept pointless.

Meanwhile, Right-Wing Christians became increasingly fixated on the apocalypse for God only knows what reason and decided that the state of Israel was the key to Jesus coming back. Yes, it's as insane as it sounds.

So, in short, the Israeli-Palestinian issue has driven everyone in this country collectively insane.

[fob]

10. Huh? I don't think Democrats are the strongest supporters of Israel

my whole post is asking exactly the opposite! I can understand where Democrats would not have a problem with a socialist-type state, it's the repukes that allegedly "won the cold war by defeating the godless socialist communists" that support Israel I don't understand.

Where did you get that idea? And what does the Palestinians have to do with Israel's form of government? Are you saying they chose socialism because of the palestinians? As the resident historian, is this common knowledge? If this was asked of 10 freepers (NOT DEMOCRATS), how many would know the correct answer?

[The Magistrate]

19. The Gentleman Is Quite Correct, Sir

Support for the state of Israel has, through most of its history, been stronger in the Democratic Party than the Republican Party. It remains the case even today that the great preponderance of Democrats view Israel with a friendly eye, though many dislike its current government. It is the belief of only a very small number of people that opposition to Israel is the hallmark of a "real Democrat."

The cause of Arab palestine had, of course, nothing to do with the form of Israel's government. It did become something of a totem on the Left, at a rime when hostilities between the Soviet Union and the United States were at their height, and Israel was seen as something of a check to Soviet designs in the Near East. The Soviet Union had, in the earliest days of Israel, been very supportive of it, viewing it as a possible wedge against European colonial control of the region; weapons shipped from the Soviet satillite of Czechoslovakia were essential elements of Israeli victory in the '48 war. Matters shifted during Stalin's swan-song, the Doctors' Purge, which had grotesque Anti-Semitic elements, and with the interplay of Israeli rapprochement with west Germany, and the rise of Nasser in Egypt. By the mid-fifties, and the Suez War, the turn to Soviet hostility was complete.

[fob]

21. You and theboss are confusing me. Am I asking a question I don't

know I'm asking? Democratic support/non-support of Israel is NOT the question.

Let me try asking it this way;
A common tactic of the right is to label their opponent a "communist" or barring that the dreaded "socialist" or gasp! a "liberal". The advanced mouthbreathers actually string 1, 2 or all of those together. This same set of "thinkers" has an awful hard-on for the support of Israel (See PNAC, bush*co, Religious Right), which has been demonstrated in other posts is largely for religiously expedient reasons. This group also sucks in their rank-and-file brothers and sisters in this endevour. My question is, do these lower end freeper types that seem to run on the faux patriotism of America right or wrong and Better dead than Red KNOW that their "leaders" have them blindly supporting one of their most hated tenets of liberalism as they see it? If overnight the world referred to the Socialist State of Israel, what would happen in freeperville, USA?

[The Magistrate]

22. My Apologies, Sir

It is far from my intention to confuse you. The answer to your question, as you phrased it above, is that many of the younger rightist reactionaries who today support Israel probably would not do so so strenuously if they were aware of its basically Socialist character. But remember that their support for it is based on other characteristics of that state, and of its situation, that would remain unchanged by that realization. Those who are religiously oriented believe the establishment and maintainance of Israel is a service to the diety, where they do not view it through an End Times prism. Some others are simply attracted to what they perceive as its toughness and ruthlessness in dealing with its enemies. There would remain, too, a basic sense that it constitutes a Western country in conflict with an Eastern people, that would influence many, and also that it is a frontier polity, with a certain overlap with idealized conceptions of the Old West, and these things feed a sense of identity for many in our country.

Among older people, its identity as a staunch opponent of Soviet Communism is well established, and back in Cold War days nobody troubled much over the Socialist elements of European countries, and other countries, that were solidly Western and opposed to the Soviets. The older a person is, the more likely it is that person will be aware of the basically left orientation of Israel, and that was common knowledge at its founding. This did not occur too long after, remember, a time in which it was a very common belief that leftism and Communism were themselves the result of Jewish influence.

[theboss]

24. Well, it's because of who the strongest voices on the Right are now

In the Cold War Days, the Right was a little leary of Israel, precisely because they were socialists. But - on the positive side - Israel really really hated the Soviet Union for its mistreatment of Jews so it was a good ally in the Cold War. In other words, the Right saw Israel as useful, while the Left truly supported it.

Since the end of the Cold War, the Right is no longer dominated by the Cold Warriors. It's dominated by the Cultural Warriors on the Christian Right. And they love Israel for its role in Biblical prophesy.

Basically, you can't understand support of Israel without understanding the dynamics on the Left and Right as well as its role in the Cold War.

[fob]

30. OK, I accept your ( and the Magistrates) history, but let me ask you this.

In our dumbed-down, sound-byte, McCarthyesque atmosphere of a repuke party could a coordinated "You guys support socialists" message drive a wedge between the gop higher ups and the freeper cannon fodder?

My hypothesis is this only needs to be threadbare deep, NOT a 12 week book-tour lecture series.

Kinda like the SmearVets and their "Kerry's self-inflicted wounds" only this would use an equally scary propostion for their side that is also true.

I think this could be a wedgie because I have repuke friends that constantly refer back to "socialism" as a bogeyman for "winning" arguments and if they found out that they are spending alot of time and energy in major support of a socialist state, they may just lose it altogether.

[stavka]

11. I think the shifting weight of Christian nut-cases has changed this...

Israel has become at the national level a rather locally imperialist nation. I think most gentile Democrats might even think in terms of good-Jews/bad Jews in Israel.

Those that won't settle for peace (an international Jerusalem, withdrawal and de-militarizing of Golan, demolition of settlements)

Vs

Those that will. (A growing number as I understand it)

At home in the US, Jews fall into 2 categories for many democrats - the "Israel, my second country right or wrong", or the "I am capable of rational, non-Torah inspired debate and thought" categories.

With the Soviet Union gone, Israel is worthless as a strategic ally, and even between 1948-1991 they were a liability, much as insurance is a liability, that is to say - it still was money well spent.

A cold war driven alliance probably needs to be rethought given the cold war has been over for nearly 15 years, and Israel's enemies no longer have the Soviet Union to arm and support them, they are crumbling Military dictatorships - or our own Gulf and Saudi allies.

To some extent, we arm both sides of the conflict - with reminds me, how did GE do today?

[Classical_Liberal]

23. They are an oppressed minority of a democracy that made them homeless

then governed them on the West Bank without the right to vote. So long as Israel governs them or doesn't give them voting rights they are the equivolent of pre civil rights act blacks. People who ignore this are the ones ignoring history.

I recognize its right to exist, and that it was created as a responce to the Holicaust, but for fuck sakes it needs to give the Palestinians their own state. This means giving them the West Bank and Gaza and moving the settlers back to Israel, or letting the settlers be Palestinians. I don't believe they will do this without Political pressure from either America or the EU. They have been run by successive right wing governments who serve the setter constituancy, and the left governments have been week ones. Even Sharon isn't really abandoning the settlements. He is only getting rid of Gaza, which isn't really viewed as part of historical Israel anyway. He is annexing the the settlements. Pissing off the more extreme right makes him look more moderate than he is. The EU is a more likely prospect, since American voters are too uninformed to realize how bad the settlements are for America's image in the muslim world.

[ajacobson]

12. Read and learn

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Labor%20Zionism

Those who know better can correct me, but labor Zionism was not significant in numerical terms but it was well established as part of the ideology and identity of the Israeli state. Structurally, the trade union played a large role in the state management of the economy, i.e. much of the social benefits were administered through the unions. As some one else posted, that arrangement is history, it was dismantled mainly during the 80s and 90s. The religious institutions gained a lot of power and although most Israelis probably consider themselves in favor of an overwhelmingly secular society, very little can be done politically without the approval of the religious institutions and their supporters.

On edit:
On the left before WWII, the labor Zionists were opposed by the Bund (Algemeyner Yidisher Arbeter Bund). Actually the other way around, Bundists were the predominant force on the left among Jews in eastern Europe. Hitler and Stalin finished off the Bund pretty much.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/General%20Jewish%20Labor%20Union

[stavka]

14. Sounds like Utah

"The religious institutions gained a lot of power and although most Israelis probably consider themselves in favor of an overwhelmingly secular society, very little can be done politically without the approval of the religious institutions and their supporters. "

Scary how that fits the USA too.

I'm sure plenty of women would be alarmed to know the religious right in this country would prefer that they beome property of their husbands again....but nobody reads much in this country, and I doubt it's theme played out much on MTV or Survivor.

[fob]

18. OK. So you along with the rest have confirmed the gov't status,

but what about the other aspects of my question? Do you feel this is WIDELY known? Apparently the hatred of socialism by the right is triumphed by their own religious ideology supporting Israel for their own means to an end, as it were. But the general rank and file freeper types would be too confused, wouldn't they?

[theboss]

26. Britain is socialist too

Right-wingers are tolerant of the Western democracies with socialist systems more or less. If they weren't, the US wouldn't have any allies because every western state has a similar system to Israel. Israel's religious make-up, plus its alleged importance in stemming the spread of "Islamo-facism" is what makes it popular on the Right now.

[fob]

31. But we don't have official policies that prop up Great Britain per se.

We don't give them billions outright, right?

[geek tragedy]

17. Very true.

My fiancee worked as an academic administrator dealing with grad students--a great number of whom were Israelis. On almost a daily basis, she would hear something along the lines of "But in Israel, we don't have to do/pay for this ourselves."

Made me want to move there, except I don't want to get blown up and I'm an agnostic.