I must rant about my freeper father again.... (I really gotta move)

[noahmijo]

Okay here we go again, it all started when he came home today and asked me nicely I will admit to remove the "Re-Defeat Bush" sticker from my car.

I live in his home, and he wants it removed so that when my uncle comes in from NY we don't have any pointless fights and I agree because my uncle is very stubborn and will just be sore and then some and won't even listen to whatever facts I put in front of him.

He said I should keep the Kerry stickers though. The thing is I've swayed my father over to the side of fence sitter but what happens is he is such a damn gun maniac and the classic example of a "back your government NO MATTER WHAT" type that he actually ponders why we don't just nuke the fuck outta Iraq why are we pussyfooting.

I've been constantly explaining over and over again our history with Iraq, and the fact that if anything the REAL terrorists were thrilled about us going to war with Iraq. It's very similar in my opinion to invading Russia during WW II (The Russians were Stalinish mean motherfuckers whom many suffered unders, BUT they weren't the enemy at the time, they weren't the ones looking to invade America THE NAZIS were The JAPENESE were, but NOT the Russians, and what we just did was invade Russia during WW II GET IT????

That's not even a good example, cause the Russians at one time actually backed Hitler before he foolishly betrayed them, but still you get the idea.

So the thing is I get this point across I spend hours doing it, 5 minutes of that fucking scumbag Savage and boom we're back to square one, liberals hate America, and hate our troops cause we won't let them blow up Iraq.

Okay so today the gun issue again he keeps bringing up "well see the thing is Noah the liberals I work with at the attourney's office hate guns in fact the county attourney has actually stated that she would be comfortable if she could remove all our guns from our hands"

Now here's the thing. First off this attourney is the reason he has a job. Secondly, I am a gun owner, or a "gun-nut" I own more guns including assault rifles (all bought with an FFL liscence thanks to my pops) and I disagree STRONGLY with the notion of removing everyone's guns a la Hitler style.

BUT, the record shows this woman talking about how she wishes she could do it but then saying how she knows it would not be possible. What's more I wonder if our conservative leaning paper which quoted her as saying this has taken her out of context.

Lastly, every bill she has sponsored proposed or signed, as a gun owner I AGREED with them, I do think adults who let their kids get ahold of their guns and harm or kill others with should be held responsible, there SHOULD be NO loopholes at gun shows, there should be background checks THESE are the things this woman has pushed.

Unbelievable I think I know my father's employer in this respect better than he does.

But anyways not withstanding her strong anti-gun statement in my opinion there are far more important things at stake. I say these statements to my father and he just walks away or with a wave of the hand "I've no time to listen I gotta go" just as I'm about to deliver a good argument.

I am 22, and the way I see it, my generation and the one after me is about to be saddled with the worst deficit in history, inflation will increase, my tuition at the UofA has increased by 33% most of it due to the unfunded mandates of the state, my girlfriend aspires to be a teacher, and under this current administration Bush has a "FUCK YOU TEACHERS!!!" plan that he is not looking to change anytime soon, and then this war on Iraq has left us open even more to terrorism AND guess who's up to be drafted should it come back? and for what? So Mr Potter (Cheney) can rake in a few more profits?

So just taking just this alone I ask am I supposed to hold my nose and accept all this just so that I can stick to a pro-gun repuke? first off Bush ain't even pro-gun so let's not even go there, he supports the AWB too, but the point is THIS issue is more important than the ones I just listed above???

I don't think so, I am actually enraged that my father completely ignores the above mentioned issues in favor of the precious right to not have to be hassled when trying to buy a gun or an assault weapon.

Well all I can say is it's a damn good thing that if the repukes win that I will "get to keep my guns" I'll need them to fight off the terrorists they have been ignoring or helping out over the last couple of decades, and when the girl and I are both out of college and both working full time and we still can't afford the bills due to inflation, I guess I will have to thank to the Repukes for not taking away my assault rifles so I can now go and rob a bank just to pay the month's rent. (Joke I would go homeless before I would commit a crime like okay Ashcroft if you're reading this you fucking piece of filth that looks like Issac from Children of The Corn!)

So to end it on the issue of Iraq dad is bitching how our soldiers keep having to offer truce offers and avoid blowing up some mosque and he says "when you're at war you're supposed to just do it right dammit!" and I said "well what the hell are we over there fighting for? WHO are we fighting? those people who are holed up in that mosque what did they do? did they plot to hijack planes and crash them into buildings? we're fighting the wrong fucking war, we attacked a nation that never threatened us never sponsored terror against America, and now we got our soldiers over there dying and losing limbs for no reason, and let me say this, just what the fuck would YOU do if all of a sudden our house got bombed, mom and my girl died, I lost my arm and leg? you would pick up your assault rifle and start shooting back? you wouldn't be pissed? that's what these people are! sure there are terrorists there NOW there are! now that Saddam isn't there to hang Muslim extremists by balls they're there now!

I tell you what if a group of ANYBODY invaded this country and started dropping bombs on the Cathedral I attend I would sure as hell get fired up to waste them, and that's the whole thing, and given the fact that even this administration knows that this war is bullshit we're not fighting to kill terrorists, we just invaded a nation that is now full of citizens whom are pissed off that we tore up their houses and made guts out of their loved ones.

I told him it'd be different if let's pretend Saddam did just go in and drop a bomb on California or something. Yes THEN I'd say we gotta destroy that bastard and his infrastructure. Of course I wouldn't advocate purposefully killing civilian casualties, but let's be honest THAT would be a war that I doubt many would protest, if Saddam came and bombed one of our cities and his people were running around screaming "haha! death to America! you die infidel!" then I'd be all in favor of "shock and awe"

But guess what? that ain't the case and it never was THAT'S the fuckin problem, and people like my father just don't get it, they wanna act like armchair generals they wanna act like they know all about war and who we're fighting but they don't get that they just made the true enemy light up a cigar and celebrate.

I dunno I tried to get this across and he just walked away from me, so great now we're on bad terms again. I am a weak little liberal who wants to appease terrorists who are murdering our soldiers and that's that ::eyes::


Ahhh okay I feel better now thanks DU.

[WI_DEM]

1. yeah probably best to move

[kimchi]

2. Show him pictures of dead and maimed Iraqi children.

It is easy to wish ill upon others when you don't have to look at their anguished faces.

Lots of luck.

[noahmijo]

4. Wouldn't care his response would be

well that's war! you see that's what it does, what about the pictures of the kids who died in the WTC??? funny how the liberal media won't show those! those kids were probably kids of terrorists anyway.

I'd bet $50 that's what his response would be.

[kimchi]

11. Well I don't have 50 bucks,

but it could be worth a try. I cry every time I see some of those pictures, and think "That could be my child." (One of the pictures even looks like my 2 yr old.) Any compassionate human would have the same feeling.

[Cookie wookie]

20. You're right to be patient and finish up your college work

What you said, especially:
"and I said "well what the hell are we over there fighting for? WHO are we fighting? those people who are holed up in that mosque what did they do? did they plot to hijack planes and crash them into buildings? we're fighting the wrong fucking war, we attacked a nation that never threatened us never sponsored terror against America, and now we got our soldiers over there dying and losing limbs for no reason, and let me say this, just what the fuck would YOU do if all of a sudden our house got bombed, mom and my girl died, I lost my arm and leg? you would pick up your assault rifle and start shooting back? you wouldn't be pissed? that's what these people are! sure there are terrorists there NOW there are! now that Saddam isn't there to hang Muslim extremists by balls they're there now!"

. . .You are way ahead of your dad and many other people in this country for that matter. That's just a fact. I would think this would be hard on you as well as your dad, since it means a role reversal, but sometimes that happens. My sisters and I got the IQ from my dad, not my mom, so there's always a gap between what we can understand and what she can.

However, your may be fighting with you but at the same time getting it at some level. Your arguments are too sound, but since he's your dad, it may be impossible for him to back down without feeling humiliated.

The important thing is that you are able to disagree and he lets you stay at home while you finish school. He must really love you to help you out that way.

Be patient with him. He's probably been plenty patient with you in the past as you've been growing up!!

[devlin radiset]

3. major point of fact..

the US did not invade the USSR during WWII...we were allies...Germany invaded the USSR

[noahmijo]

5. I know that

That is my whole point you got it.

I was saying that what we did in Iraq is akin to the same move IF we were to invade Russia during WW II.

It's to draw the comparison that here we have a country run by a murdering thug (Stalin is Saddam here) BUT it just so happens this murdering thug ain't on the same side as Bin Laden and Al-Queda...but we invade his nation anyway totally turning our resources and focus away from the real enemy.

[devlin radiset]

6. I get it...sorry for misunderstanding eom

[noahmijo]

7. It's alright I'm just fiesty right now

[noahmijo]

9. It's alright I'm just fiesty right now

Interestingly I credit the dumb move by Hitler to even try to take over Russia which I believe was highly instrumental in crippling his plans to beat the US and the rest of the Allies.

[mitchtv]

43. instrumental is an understatement

the Soviets won the war in Europe. with our help of course

[Warpy]

8. kerry's an avid hunter.

I'm sure there are photos of Kerry toting a gun out on the net somewhere. I know I've seen several.

Just print one out and paste it in your car window.

That shuts the gunloons up.

As for your dingbat uncle, just tell him he may want a family fight, but you don't, so go annoy somebody else. Then stick to it.

Moving out is often the best solution. People try to tell you that the problems just move with you, but sometimes the geographical cure does work.

Good luck on all accounts.

[Tight_rope]

10. Dude....I suggest you find other living quarters.

[noahmijo]

13. Yea problem cannot afford to

Got one semester left in college and I am not entitled to grants I get loans.

I figure just tough it out last semester, I will get my second degree, I will get a job hopefully by this January and then I can move out.

[AmerDem]

12. I have to admit I didn't read your entire post but

from what i read in the first few paragraphs i'de like to smack your old man across the fucking head. How old are you? if you are over 18, I personally see no reason why you should be living home. Be your own man and get on with life in your own place!

[noahmijo]

14. Once again same answer with what money?

Still in college for a semester, I get no grants, it's all on loans and with my classes I have no time for a part time job, and even if I did have time it wouldn't pay for the cost of living.

After this December though when I grab my second degree though and get a job...

[AmerDem]

16. Well, when I was younger I worked full time and attended

community college. Everything you listed are excuses nothing more. You and only you are in direct control of your life and it's path.

BTW, your second degree? Give me a break! You should set your priorities better. There was No reason what so ever you couldn't get a job after your first degree, then perhaps work on the second. Anyway it's your life but no one said I have to feel sorry for ya!

[noahmijo]

18. Um well here's the thing

First of all I just got done finishing my first degree THIS SUMMER. So it's not like I've been lounging the last 4 years I just got it done not more than 2 weeks ago.

Secondly, this second degree gives a competitive edge, something you highly need nowadays in the field of IT. An extra semester to get a clear edge is worth the price of delaying the job search for a few months.

College has already put me in debt by about $20 grand already. This is not including my first two years which I worked full time while attending community college to pay for that. During those 2 years I actually had free time cause I wasn't in Junior level classes yet. I spent that free time refusing loans to stay out of debt and working to pay for tuition.

Lastly no offense but I went to community college for two years and this will now be 2 and a half years spent at a University.

You can't compare the two, try taking upper level courses that require 60+ hours a week of work and research. Sure it isn't as demanding as medical school or even in many cases as demanding as a degree which requires a high math and science background, but it is still demanding nonetheless.

Then with that in mind see if you could get a job that pays enough to pay $500+ rents which is what apartments in this city go for on average. This is Tucson there is no such thing as decent paying jobs around here unless you get a full time job at one of the major corporations like Honeywell, IBM, AOL, there are many to choose from, but none of them play the decent salary game if you work part time.

You either work full time and make a good wage, or you work part time and don't even make enough to make your car payments.

Were you awarded grants or loans when you were attending community college? I only got awarded enough in LOANS to pay for tuition. They didn't even give me the option to take out enough to afford an apartment or dorm because they figure my parents are able to house me which they are.

So no don't feel sorry for me but don't assume to be fully aware of my situation either. Believe me if all it meant was spending a few hours at school and a part time job and hardly having any time to myself just to have my own place believe me I'd be all over the opportunity but it's just not possible not for a couple months at least.

[AmerDem]

25. I don't want to hear your whole life story

and I know you don't want to hear mine. There are many down and out people through this country that have things so so bad ( and I do everything I can to help ) but you aren't one of them!

[noahmijo]

27. Yea I know that

And not a damn day goes by where I don't stop and think about it. I by no means think that I have it really bad or that ANYONE should feel sorry for me.

I was just responding to your attack which is how I took it, that hinted that I'm sort of lazy good for nothing bum who just whines, and that it's entirely my fault that I'm not financially independent yet.

[AmerDem]

39. one doesn't need to be "financially independent".

one just needs to be Independent and everything else falls into place!

[Cookie wookie]

19. You're right to be patient and finish up your college work

What you said, especially:
"and I said "well what the hell are we over there fighting for? WHO are we fighting? those people who are holed up in that mosque what did they do? did they plot to hijack planes and crash them into buildings? we're fighting the wrong fucking war, we attacked a nation that never threatened us never sponsored terror against America, and now we got our soldiers over there dying and losing limbs for no reason, and let me say this, just what the fuck would YOU do if all of a sudden our house got bombed, mom and my girl died, I lost my arm and leg? you would pick up your assault rifle and start shooting back? you wouldn't be pissed? that's what these people are! sure there are terrorists there NOW there are! now that Saddam isn't there to hang Muslim extremists by balls they're there now!"

. . .You are way ahead of your dad and many other people in this country for that matter. That's just a fact. I would think this would be hard on you as well as your dad, since it means a role reversal, but sometimes that happens. My sisters and I got the IQ from my dad, not my mom, so there's always a gap between what we can understand and what she can.

However, your may be fighting with you but at the same time getting it at some level. Your arguments are too sound, but since he's your dad, it may be impossible for him to back down without feeling humiliated.

The important thing is that you are able to disagree and he lets you stay at home while you finish school. He must really love you to help you out that way.

Be patient with him. He's probably been plenty patient with you in the past as you've been growing up!!

[noahmijo]

24. You're right that's what makes this so hard

He really is there for me you know? I could never hate him, I just hate the ignorance he quickly can display when he is quite capable of understanding the different between truth and lie, but he's old school stubborn you know? and see this is a case where BECAUSE he cares about me so much it just pains me to see him almost defend this bastard who spits on my generation and our troops like this.

[Cookie wookie]

41. it just pains me to see him almost defend this bastard

When you need him to be wise, when you can see what's happening to the country and how it's going off the precipice and he can't, that's not only tough but painful as hell.

Hang in there. He may never admit it, but who knows, you may sway his vote without ever having to say anymore than you already have -- he couldn't have you as a son and be completely closed-minded.

[Mz Pip]

15. Not all liberals

want to take his guns away.

Given the way this adminsitration is going I'd be more worried about BushCo taking his guns away.

MzPip
:dem:

[Cookie wookie]

26. I agree with you

and we need to get the word passed along to as many people as possible. The right wing will have to take everyone's guns away because there is no other way to control people in this country to the degree it's obvious they need to (because they are a bunch of cowards themselves) without taking guns away. I'm sure that must be on their agenda somewhere, probably planning to get it going right after the election (I have no facts on that, just pure imagination).

BTW: I'm a Dem and although I don't own a gun, our founders gave us the right to keep and bear arms, and they knew what they were doing.

[noahmijo]

30. Yea ditto (Megadittos!) sorry hehe

I don't even care if you hate guns people who hate guns or are against owning them or whatever it doesn't bother me, where I draw the line is if I were to outright hear a politician say "I propose this bill to allow the ATF to invade your home and take away your firearms"

From what I see Democrats on this issue simply want more restrictions closed loopholes to gun ownership and not only do I not have a problem with this but I agree with these stances.

I don't buy into the right's bullshit that liberals take the "ATF" stance that I just described.

I happen to go to gun shows sometimes I see Nazis and gangbangers buying up weapons without going through any checks it's pretty sick to watch.

[XanaDUer]

17. My .02

First of all, I feel for you. It really sucks to be given a hard time because of sincerely-held beliefs.

Here is my situation, and the situation of a relative of mine who is also liberal.

I have an uncle (I have mentioned him here several times before due to his insanity and pushy way of sending RW crap e-mails). His child, my cousin, is very liberal as well. They and he do not get along when they discuss politics.

Now, to begin-neither I nor my cousin live with this RW uncle, nor are we supported by him. It is much easier to be politically autonomous when you don't have to live in close quarters with or rely financially on said RW-nut relatives. I know there are some DU ers who, due to disability or whatever, have to live with fundie/republican-nut relatives, and it is very stressful for them, natually.

When RW uncle would send me the most egregious crap through the e-mail, I let much of it slide. Finally, having had enough, I began civially refuting the lies with fact. It is especially irritating since this uncle has benefitted from ALL ENTITLEMENT PROGRAMS from FDR on down, and lives in the NE, which has stronger unions (or used to when he worked-he is now retired).

He finally stopped e-mailing me crap when I confronted him, again politiely, with the truth. My cousin, his child, had to finally tell him that, in order to maintain a good relationship with him, they *could not* discuss politics in any way shape or form, unless it was done respectfully, and being a Freeper, he could not do that. It was said civilly, maturely, and they held firm. If and when he starts, my cousin hangs up the telephone.

So, I would say, if it keeps you from having more stress in your life, it may be easier to just do whatever is easiest for you. There is a hardcore contingent of people, who, for whatever reason, absolutley will vote Republican, even if it is injurious to them in a larger sense.

So arguing, refuting, trying to convince them, using logic, etc. , does not work with these types. They view the world through a very narrow stricture, and it usually revolves around a handful of issues: guns, abortion, racism/sexism (covert or overt), and taxes. Now homophobia has been added, as the RWers knew it would manipulate these poor folks into a frenzy, and it has.

So, it might be better to save your energy for defeating the Chimp. Getting stressed and depressed trying to sway people who are monomaniacal in their views is probably more harmful to you than it is to them. Seek out other liberals and progressives to nuture you, and know you are not alone.

Remember, WE are correct. Most people in the nation are liberal, as Michael Moore says. Much of this obnoxious behavior has been ratched up by the RW Fear factor, since many of them intuitively sense their tiny worlds are imploding.

If and when opportunities appear to demonstrate just how awful RWers are for almost 99% of the world, you could gently point out why the rotten situation adversely effecting the RW relative comes about when they are voted for and supported by working/elderly/minorities.

Like Medicare. Now my RW uncle is worried about it, so I pointed out, without scorn, why it is coming about and why he may want to rethink his position. And I almost fell off my f****** chair when he said that the Dems may be right about that!

Good luck , my friend, and seek out affirming people to nuture you in your ideas. :hug: DU is great for that. I have blown off some steam here myself, and (most)everyone has been very supportive.


PS-"nuking Iraq" makes no sense since we were told we were sent to liberate them. In know that, in pointing this out, you will simple get a whacko answer, but I find it interesting that Freepers were at first going to help Iraquis gain liberation, and now we are supposed to nuke them. Consistency, thy name is not Freeper.

[coalition_unwilling]

21. Importance of Fahrenheit 9/11-Casualties of War

I think this is the same person to whom I recommended inviting Dad (and possibly uncle?) to see Fahrenheit 9/11 or, if too touchy, DePalma's Casualties of War, as a way of building a common ground for discussion.

[XanaDUer]

23. Lol!

Mu uncle went into a frenzy when my cousin told him that they had gone to see F/911.

I told my cousin that I would be happy to harass him about me seeing it, but they begged me not to upset out tenuous relationship with him.

[roguevalley]

22. It's easier to listen to five minutes of Rush than to think. Hugs, honey.

[Swamp Rat]

28. ¡Que lastima! Dígale que Kerry es un casador también.

Let things cool off and try a different tactic. Remain calm. You can save him from the Dark Side... after all, he's your dad and NOT Darth Vader! At least he's not hassling you about your Kerry stickers. My uncle in El Paso would probably shoot my car full of holes if he saw a Kerry sticker.

[noahmijo]

29. Ahhh YOU I was meaning to write to you

You know see that's the thing, my dad believe it or not is the biggest flip flopper since Bush in this way.

Some days when I finally can sit him down to listen he gets all calm he says I make sense he says I'm smart enough to use facts ect, hell last time I spoke with him he actually said "ok that's enough I'm voting for kerry!"

But then it's like one day later all it takes is some dumbass head on the radio or his employer the county attourney says some sort of anti-gun statement BAM! we're back to square one.

He's not Latino by the way that's my mother's side. She likes Kerry :) she's also a good one to talk about how great things are working two food based jobs in a city where unions are all but outlawed.

[Swamp Rat]

35. Good for mamita!

Perhaps you can talk to your mom (privately) about turning your dad. She has a LOT more power over him than you can imagine... well, maybe you CAN imagine.

There are other things you can do to protect your father from the Busheviks. Prevent him from listening to those terrible TV/radio shows if you can. Erase the presets on his car radio/office radio etc., but DON'T GET CAUGHT! We want to SAVE him and our country. I bet you can come up with many creative ways to save your dad. Be creative. Don't waste energy getting mad at your dad... it's not really his fault. Millions of Americans have been brainwashed.

¡Buena suerte! Dígame que pasara.

[Gato Moteado]

31. not only would i NOT remove the bumper sticker......

but i'd stick one on your dad's car when he's not looking. and, if i were you i'd buy a bag load of the most insulting bumper stickers to the bush admin i could find and i'd plaster your uncle's car with them too.

[noahmijo]

32. Well Mr. Zappa the problem is.....

Not that simple I'm afraid...LoL

[Gato Moteado]

33. mr zappa?

yeah, that probably wouldn't help your delicate relationship with your uncle i guess.

[noahmijo]

36. Your avator pic looks like Zappa

[Gato Moteado]

44. ah....that's george harrison

nt

[dorktv]

34. I am guessing that you are in Arizona...If you are in

Phoenix, come to the District 8 meeting and get some love from your fellow Democrats. (tonight is the candidate forum and I think Starky will be there)

where: 10101 N 90th Street, Scottsdale (Mustang Library
When: 7 PM

If you need help getting there, call me 480-206-0461.


You might want to get the Homer Gets A Gun episode and show your father why people believe in gun control. :)

[The Straight Story]

37. Bumper Sticker Politics

I think the whole situation with the bumper sticker is an interesting window in politics itself. Your dad wants to keep the peace between himself and someone else and is asking you to assist in that by not offending that person. It could in some ways draw a parallel to the views many hold on the reasons so many in the middle east hate us - ie, we did not care about their views, only our own, and who cares if we offend them?

Now obviously this is not a direct line, but it underscores something which you could explain to your dad. He wants to keep the peace, avoid a fight with a relative, so he asks you to take into consideration the circumstances involving all parties and how he knows they will react (to wit, he knows he cannot change the views of the person visiting, but he can work to accomodate them within reasonable limits by compromisind ).

We can fight terrorism/ME all day long with weapons of war, but in the end will that bring about a change of heart? It is similar to Jesus (IMHO) who did not advocate changing the government or making laws, but knew the only way to make a lasting change is to do it from within the person. His followers were told to take a message to a hostile world, one of hope and brotherly love, and over time that message had great infulence (and was mis-used by many sadly at times).

Bombs/fights with relatives, have immediate consequences and can solve a short term problem - you can kill the terrorists seeking to do you harm today, but without a larger attempt to change the desires of such people han tomorrow there will be new ones rising. Like shampoo, rinse and repeat. Your dad does see the value in all this, know he just needs to apply not only to the incoming relative, but to those in a larger sphere. You may not be able to change everyone, but then you cannot kill everyone either.

At any rate, I hope it all works out for you.

[noahmijo]

40. I agree with that rationale that's why I didn't put up a fight

when he asked me to remove it temprorarily.

[Cookie wookie]

42. Reading Joe Wilson's book

as he describes his career in the State Department. It's all about learning to not just get along but the art of putting out a different viewpoint without alienating others. That is an art, no doubt about it.

Wilson is a hero to me, what a brave guy. but when I see him on tv or read what he's written, he never has to beat his chest and play macho man. That's because he is macho man, in the best sense. Strong but not brittle. Able to compromise when necessary to move a goal forward, but also able to defend his beliefs when necessary.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[lukasahero]

45. You could always enlist...

Well, ok, maybe you don't actually have to enlist, but you could tell your dad you were going to... Lots of "arm-chair generals" think differently about things when it's THEIR kids who are dying...

Just a thought, and mostly in jest.

I have a freeper mother but I'm lucky enough to be twice your age and well out of the house. In my case, it is just something we have agreed not to talk about but that's a lot easier when you don't live together. And I know it's not always possible to move out at your age (god that sounds so condescending - it's not meant to be) and in this particular economy it's even worse. Good luck.