Math and Science and girls...personal experience

[cally]

If my experience is replicated elsewhere then we have a long way to go.

A long time ago I was told I couldn't handle the early Algebra class. My parents were pretty much unwilling to challenge the school system so I didn't take it that year. I did take it the next year and got an A.

I was determined that life would be different for my daughters. My youngest took Algebra in 7th grade. In 8th grade she took Geometry. Only four girls in a class of 24 which makes you wonder how they are assigning classes. My daughter felt very uncomfortable in the class and we couldn't understand why. We went to back to school night and couldn't believe it. The teacher described the class environment and anyone with a 13 year old girl would know it's the last place they would feel comfortable. The teacher adopted a mascot that 13 year old boys love but not girls. I decided that it is not worth fighting since three of the girls in this class are my daughter's best friends and I thought they could work together to learn the material even though the teacher gave no support. One of the girls got so mad she refused to do any more homework even though she got an A on each test. One got one of the best grades in the class and my daughter got about a 92 percent. This teacher has to recommend students for the next level honors classes. None of the girls were recommended for honors. NONE. They got A's but not recommended for honors.

I went to the HS and asked for my daughter to be put in honors. I spent a few hours telling the girls to go into honors. You can handle it, etc. This one stupid teacher almost destroyed their confidence. They are now in honors but I'm still furious.

[olddem43]

1. These attitudes about girls are based on absolutely nothing -

but prejudice. I'm an engineer (male) and the best engineers I have met are women. I'm sure that you and your daughter know that logical thought has nothing to do with gender. That teacher needs an attitude adjustment and will get it if enough complaints are made to the school board.

[Cleita]

2. I did get an "A" in elementary Algebra back in the fifties,

but it was an all girls school and the teacher was a nun. Geometry no problem, another "A", again all girls. However, in college I took advanced Algebra and was the only girl in the class. I dropped the class. It was too intimidating. I had never been ignored by men before like that. It was the woman in the hardware store thing. At the age of thirty-two I decided to pick up where I had left off and was pleased to note that half the class was women. So some things have changed, but I know what you are saying. It hasn't changed enough.

[cally]

3. Not enough

And I'm very impressed that you went back at 32 into math. They bring problems to me that I once knew how to do and I have no clue. I look at them and know that somewhere in my brain I know how to solve it but I can't remember. It's not senility but rather I haven't used some of this in 30 years. I think I could remember if I really tried..;-)

[Cleita]

5. The methods of solving change and the way you

reach it is almost as important as the results. Teachers are really stubborn about their methods too. I scraped by with a C+ the last time, which I didn't tell you, but I will now. I really needed the course for some accounting classes I wanted to take, so my venture into higher mathematics stopped there.

My husband and I were acquainted with a Math professor from a local university at the time and as it turned out my teacher had been a student of one of his colleagues. He helped me with some of the stuff but even admitted to me that his students learned a different method. So I can understand why you can't help them as much as you would like too.

[cally]

6. Way too kind

I actually look at the problems, fairly easy, and I forget how to solve them. In a different world, you would have had a chance to test yourself to see if math is what you excel at. I actually got many jobs because of my math ability but I rarely used it later so I have much to re-learn if I want to go back.

[Cleita]

8. Well, I know I am not great at higher math.

I am good at accounting and balancing books, but it stops there. Yeah, the problem of rarely using what you learned extends to everything. LOL I am relearning my English skills here at DU.

[alcuno]

4. I teach 7th grade Honors Algebra.

The classes are pretty evenly split. Sorry about your experience.

[notadmblnd]

15. My neice was in honors math for two years

6th and 7th grade. 6th grade was a breeze for her and she liked it so much that she was exstatic that she was chosen for honors math in 7th. Then something happened. I started getting notes from the teacher that assignements wer'nt turned in. When I asked her about it, she had done the papers and showed them to me. I spoke to her teacher and asked her why she thought my neice would bother to do the work if she had no intention of turning it in. Thats when I found out that the assignments were not missing but that the teacher refused to accept them on grounds of neatness (eraser marks or folded papers were unacceptable) and whether or not her name was written to the teachers standards. I discussed with the teacher how she was undermining my neices enthusiam for math with her nitpicking and the teacher just laughed when I told her she was just lookingn for reasons not to do her job. At that point I told my neice she had my permission to fail the class, I told her her previous and future grades would show who had the problem in the long run. My neice scooted by this womans class with a D and she will not be in Honors Math this year.

[cally]

19. That's horrible

You could probably appeal to the principal and explain the situation.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

7. Sorry you've had such a terrible experience.

I was not allowed to take Algebra until high school, which was unfair to me. However, I know that it had nothing to do with being a girl, because no one was allowed to take Algebra at my junior high. They deemed me too smart for regular math in 6th grade. From 6th to 8th grade, me and maybe three other kids ( 1 or 2 boys included) didn't learn any math at all and they let us just play games the whole time while the teacher taught everyone else stuff we already knew how to do. I used to think that math was boring because math class in junior high and elementary school was not challenging at all. My perspective of math completely changed when I got to high school and was finally allowed to take Algebra (btw there was no such thing as honors math at my high school). I loved it.

I ended up doing computer engineering as a major in college after I graduated from high school in '97. Now I am a stay-at-home mom. Computer engineering didn't really pan out for me as a career because most of our tech jobs have gone to India. However, I still would like to have a career related to Mathematics in the future when my son is older (he's almost two now).

I always felt that the public school I went to was holding me back. I felt cheated that I spent three years of my life learning no math at all. I could have learned so much in that time frame. Algebra was a piece of cake for me when I took it in 9th grade. I got a 99 average for the entire school year. I know that I had the skills to learn Algebra at a much younger age. The teachers always talked about Algebra like it was so hard, but now I think the reason they didn't teach it in elementary school and junior high was because those teachers didn't know enough algebra to teach it in the first place. I'm going to teach my son algebra just as soon as he's ready for it, and I'm sure that will be way before they'll ever actually allow him to take it in school.

You did the right thing by pushing for your daughter to be placed in the class she deserves to be in.

[cally]

9. Thanks

I think it will eventually work out for you. So many folks are held back (I don't mean that you were held back a grade--that came out so wrong) for the wrong reasons. I remember one boss who had a son who solved algebraic equations at 10. I worry about this because our educational system doesn't allow advancement like this. We need to encourage their incredible strengths while still teaching.

On edit--I implied another DUer was held back. Not what I intended.

[cally]

22. I've heard that the ability to learn Algebra

is one of those developmental skills. Some can understand it well at a young age but others need to be older. I thought Algebra was easy also.

[fortyfeetunder]

10. Your situation is not unusual

I am also an engineer. I know and have witnessed others who were not as lucky. Earlier this year I was speaking to a high school with some other female engineers, and one of the speakers told me in her school, young women weren't encouraged to take drafting or advanced mathematics. But she took the courses, and majored in engineering anyway.

Fortunately, there are loads of programs available to encourage young women to explore science. They have to be self-motivated for that goal and build a support network on the way. Actually, it is not that much different than being in the profession.

PM me if you need links to these programs.

[porkrind]

11. I'm an engineer

and there are very few women in engineering, however, the ones that are are very competent. Women are just as good at science and math as men.

Good for you. I wish your daughters the best.

:dem:

[lostnfound]

20. I'm an engineer but wish I weren't..

Society of Women Engineers gave such a good presentation to me 30 years ago that I was convinced..even though my real loves are psychology, writing, etc. Went to an engineering college, so I wouldn't be tempted to switch to something more human.

It's been good in some ways, but I generally feel as if I took a wrong turn. I believed it when I was told that the average person changes careers 6 times in their life..

But it is nice to have a bit of credibility that comes with that type of degree, even in business.

[cmf]

12. My personal experience

There were more girls than boys in my honor classes in high school. In the rankings senior year, there were more girls than boys in the top 10 and the co-valedictorians and the salutatorian (me) were all girls. Even the honors math and science (Calculus, Physics, etc.) were split fairly evenly as I recall.

When I got to college (1994), I majored in Chemical Engineering. My graduating Chem E class was a 50/50 split between the sexes.

I know my experience is probably the exception rather than the rule, but maybe things are getting better?

[lukasahero]

13. "The teacher adopted a mascot that 13 year old boys love but not girls."

I'm confused. First, I was trying to figure out what kind of "mascot" the teacher could have "adopted" that would make the girls uncomfortable and then I began to wonder (since I don't know what the teacher has done - you didn't say) isn't that in itself as "gender-biased" a statement as the idea that girls can't do math? (Short of it being pornographic, I'm struggling to figure this out.)

I'm starting to wonder if we're actually regressing in what we're teaching our daughters. When I was your daughter's age (25 years ago), I excelled in math and science as did many of my girl friends. We were encouraged to do well in these and all our classes. We were in honors classes and honor rolls. My best friend was the first girl in my high school to take a class in mechanical drawing (at the time it was considered a "vocational" class versus college so they thought it would be "below" her). She went on to graduate from Rutgers 4.0 in engineering.

Again, that was 25 years ago. Why are we STILL fighting this battle?????

[cally]

18. Remember...there were only 4 girls in the class and

they all hated it. I don't call that stereotyping nor do I equate complaining about a mascot the same as not placing the girls in the proper classes. At parent's night I heard many parents of the boys talk about this mascot and how they loved it but several who also had daughters wondered aloud if girls would appreciate it. I don't even remember what it was now...I just remember the reactions.

I have no idea why we still have to fight this battle. To give the HS credit, they immediately switched all four girls to honors science and math when they looked at the records.

[Ghetto_Boy]

14. We were to busy being beaten by nuns to care about grades.

[alcuno]

26. That sure brings back fond memories.

I remember sitting in Trig class one day when Brother (can't remember his name) came in and took one of the boys into the hallway. All we could hear was the sound of something (likely the boy) repeatedly hitting the lockers.

Sister Bernice used to make us sing the Notre Dame fight song on Fridays at the beginning of Chemistry class; we'd get wacked with a ruler if we weren't singing loud enough.

Some of these public school parents are raising complete sissies. All of the whining on this thread makes me chuckle.

[sweetheart]

16. That is why i believe in computerized education

I've seen too many women fucked over by schools and biased teachers
who have antiquated attitudes.

My vision, is for a kid to be given a software package at the first
grade that is ALL math. They can work through the lessons as fast
as possible. Contained in the package is everything from beginning
counting and fractions to advanced differential equations, linear algebra, calculus, to graduate level.

The package itself is like a textbook that is context and learner
sensitive. It listens to the time between keystrokes and knows your
learning style, whether it is visual, audio or tactile. The program
is also networked to a tutor who keeps track of progress, and notices
gaps and problems. Unlike a textbook the package focuses the learning only on areas of weakness with more and more indepth
explanations and lessons for difficulties. Things that only happen
in a 1 to 1 teacher learning environment.

THen the teacher is freed up to work with people who are at critical
problems, and most of the class is freed up to to as fast and far
as their brains will allow.

This would remove the gender gap entirely from maths teaching, and
surely the reason such software is not already in use is due to
institutional corruption from asshole teachers like the one you
mention in your post... and from corrupt computer industry officials
who would invest in some fantasy, but have failed to deliver the
basic elements of teaching software to the public.

I see your conundrum, as a collossal failure between IBM, Microsnot,
Sun, Oracle and the software profession as a whole. Amazing the
talent that has gone in to playstation 2, yet nobody will give us
software that is actually relevant to learning... its too expensive
to develop and too revolutionary to the teaching profession.

Heck with software systems like that, and networks, fewer teachers
could handle larger groups better, and as well, let kids "work at
home" that schooling incorporate some of the flexibility that
modern businesses do.

[Cleita]

21. Interesting idea.

I think it would take a grass roots education movement to prod the government into funding a project like this. It seems really worthwhile and I like the idea you have of letting each kid work and learn at his own pace.

[cally]

23. There is a private program like this

for students. It's expensive so my kids never did it. Essentially it's internet based and you proceed at your own pace. You complete assignments and then submit them. I've heard of Middle School students completing Calculus. It's an accredited program and has a great reputation.

[sweetheart]

29. Its a slow development

The best is if such a program can be integrated with the greater
education framework of the child, so that the maths can be integrated
with the wider array of correlated subjects like physics, statistics
in physical sciences and such.

The thinking i had was that the courseware itself would constantly
quiz the software taker... and in all honesty, the idea is for adults
like me who would like to brush up on some higher maths, but do not
want to plow through years of maths textbooks to discover weaknesses.
Rather the software would quiz me as i signed on, and begin relevant
tutoring wasting none of my time on stuff i already know.

It could only be done properly with some flexibility in the education
system itself. Its no suprise to me that early focuses are expensive
private ops... someday the whole thing will be public domain and
maths education will be a global phenomena, where no person lacks
the capability to learn, even in remote areas of the world.

[CanIgonow]

17. As the father of five young women and the teacher of many fine

young women at a major university (Engineering),I can tell you that
there is absolutely no difference in the abilities of our young men and women when it comes to science and mathematics.The best remain the best regardless of gender.The same can also be said for the worst.
In fact, our culture propagates the notion that Math and Science are
inherently boring, difficult,nerdy what have you.These cultural attitudes have a lot to do with why girls avoid these subjects.Girls and to a certain degree boys are told that you cannot be popular if you are seen as a nerdy math lover.

When three of my girls started to excel in math and biology,I encouraged them to enter medicine or biomedical engineering.As they started whining about turning into nerds, I asked them all to take up
tennis and crosscountry racing in their high school years.When they started excelling in these sports,all the talk about being nerds were put to rest and they are now glad that their dumb dad had some brains after all!

[alcuno]

24. Welcome to DU, CanIgonow.

That's a great story. Our middle school is turning out terrific fenale math students. At the high school level, it's the "popularity" issue that often interferes with their success so it sounds like you handled it very well.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

27. I agree.

In this country, there seems to be a general attitude that math is boring or not useful. I taught high school level math for a short period of time (Algebra 1B, Algebra 1, Geometry, and Algebra 2) at a public high school. Most students expressed that they thought math was boring. They get these attitudes from their parents. I met a lot of their parents at parent teacher conferences and open houses. Many of the parents didn't see the point to learning any math beyond addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. The kids figure if their parents don't think it is important to learn, it must not be important to learn. They essentially have no incentive to learn math because their parents don't care, so they don't even try. It's kind of sad that these parents don't realize how they are limiting their child's potential by expressing negative attitudes about math (or any other subject for that matter).

[Skittles]

25. cally

when I signed up for advanced math classes in high scool in 1973 and 1974 I was asked why (by a male teacher), "you probably won't ever need it". ( told him BECAUSE I WANT TO.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

[LibraLabSoldier]

28. Start at home.

I have two daughters. I work in a science related field( I am a military medical laboratory technitian). I encourage them every chance i get. I got a good microscope off of Ebay, and began filling in the gaps that the education system is leaving. My oldest daughter won first place in the science fair. It is also important not to fall in the old gender role trap at home, either. My daughters see their dad doing laundry, cooking, and doing other "domestic" tasks. My kids once asked me why commercials for cleaning products never show daddies....i didnt have an answer for them on that one.

[fujiyama]

30. I'm a male in engineering program

and in my major (electrical engineering), there are not many females. My friend in chemical engineering said there were a lot more. Interestly enough though, electrical engineering is probably more math intensive than chemE.

I don't think it was quite this way in HS, but as the math clases got more advanced fewer girls seemed interested.

I don't think this discouraging of math is specific only to females to (although it's probably worse), but it's a problem with both sexes. Math and science are simply not stressed very much when growing up. Sure, there's a lot of lip service but the importance of basic math was not really stressed in elementary and middle school. In many cases our teachers were not prepared to teach the classes and didn't seem very qualified either (I recall one teacher was completely clueless and was also a gym teacher).

One thing about math is it takes a lot of practice (atleast to get good at it) and it has to start relatively early. Certain things like algebra do take repitition and this seems to be replaced with a "new math" scheme, where expensive books with lots of fancy colored photos are being bought by public schools. For example the year I entered HS, I was placed in a program called Al/Geo/Stat, which combined Albebra, geometry and statistics. Unfortunately there was little direction in those courses and not enough rigor as well. It was a weak program and it was replacing the traditional geometry, Albebra II, precalculus, and calculus route (or some variation of that - it's been too many years to remember). Anyways, by the time many of us got to precalculus, our algebra skills were relatively weak.

This discouraging of taking higher math is unfortunate and could cause the US to have edge in technology. Countries like India and China are producing a lot of quality engineers and stress math and science from an early age. Even here in the US, many of the best students are children of immigrants - evident that these fields are stressed (perhaps too heavilly in some cases) by their parents. Another interesting thing I have observed (my parents are from India and I have family there) is that many men as well as women are interested in math and engineering. I also remember that when I took my differential equations course there was an Asian student doing a dual enrollement along with HS (that's pretty impressive). Granted, this is not to say that Asian people are inherantly better at math (I think such generalizations are foolish) but it's stressed heavilly at home. One more thing that doesn't help is that corporations are moving many tech jobs overseas, so there is further discouragement to get enrolled in engineering, comp sci, etc. People figure, all the jobs are leaving anyways, why bother studying so much?

Mathematics is an important part of so many fields - engineering and technology, and increasingly in fields like economics and even political science (though it's debatable how effective it is in this field - much of it dealing with statistics).

BTW if you or anyone was interested, there is a program for younger children (elementary school I think), called Kumans (I'm pretty sure that's what it's called) which teaches advanced math at an early age. I know it's very popular among Indians and east Asians (my Chinese friend's sister was enrolled in it).

BTW, at this level the women I've met in engineering are just as capable (if not more) than anyone else.