BBV and absentee ballots - please settle once and for all

[chimpy the poopthrower]

Does using an absentee ballot really guarantee that your vote will be counted and provide a paper trail? Isn't it against the law to use an absentee ballot if you're not really absent? What if Repubs start trying to disqualify a large number of absentee ballots in areas using this reason? I've heard both positive and negative arguments about using absentee voting to ensure your vote will be counted. I'd like to have it settled once and for all.

[papau]

1. Not against the law - the GOP have been doing this for decades.

There is a "disqualify a large number of absentee ballots" worry - but it is the same as the GOP will "disqualify a large number of regular ballots " worry.

At least with the absentee ballot the crime "GOP will disqualify" has a "paper trail" - as compared to BBV where the crime is not a crime because there is no audit trail - and therefore no proof of the crime.

[Andy_Stephenson]

2. 1st off when it is a ballot you want call it that...not paper trail

see my sig line.

Using an optical scan or absentee ballot are far safer than a touchscreen...however it is the central tabulator in Diebold that is the problem. Without a few specific reccomendations (which www.blackboxvoting.org) made to the California Secretary of State...there could be problems. They are simple solutions cost very little and give our more security than they have now.

By all means vote absentee...but that is only part of the solution. Watch BBV for the solutions in the next few days as well as a report from the California meeting.

Right now I say pen...paper...and a day off to count the election.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

3. Thanks!

I'll be waiting for your report.

Now you made me have to go and change my preferences. I had signatures turned off. :)

[harmonyguy]

4. An absentee paper ballot guarantees that .....

....your vote will be on a paper ballot, and that's a good thing.

Depending on your location, that paper ballot may be counted by hand under the watchful eye of multi-party scrutineers, (they DO still allow scrutineers don't they?) or counted by a machine, under the watchful eye of .........possibly nobody who's actually paying attention.

Depending on the make, model and age of the machine doing the counting, it may or may not accurately count your vote, since some are VERY fussy about the type of writing stick you use to mark your paper ballot. Some need #2 pencil, others can read anything but red or green marks and so on..... If the machine hasn't been maintained properly you can easily get a buildup of paper lint or ink on the scan head, just like on a fax machine. (Y'know those long black lines that appear on some fax documents - the scanner at the other end needs cleaning!)

There may also be local rules about overvotes and rejections - something to the effect of if one race is overvoted is the entire ballot rejected or just that one race?

There may also be local rules (perhaps even some invented on the spot) that recounts can only be done by machine. Well, you see a machine recount should almost always produce the same result. The only accurate way to do a count or recount is to it by hand, under the watchful eye of those multi-party scrutineers.

Does voting an absentee ballot guarantee that your vote will count?

Once and for all, absolutely, positively, without question, maybe ! (Sorry)
Because it's on paper, if there is a hand recount, there's sure a MUCH better chance of it counting than having a hand recount of bits and bytes.

Now, in all seriousness, don't under any circumstances let anyone disuade you from voting a paper absentee ballot. Even WITH all the things that can affect whether or not it will count, there are a LOT more things that can mess up an electronic vote.

Given the two choices, I'd still go for the paper.

Hope that doesn't muddy the water too much.

HG

[Andy_Stephenson]

5. thanks HG

and check your PM's

[harmonyguy]

9. Thanks - Done - check yours ! nt

[EST]

6. One thing I find about absentee is

(well two things) the rethugs are recommending their supporters to vote absentee, as though WE would steal an election. The real reason, ti that they want the folks to vote early, so they are locked in and can't change their minds when more bullshit is uncovered.

[Andy_Stephenson]

7. No that is not the reason...

the Republicans have just to worry about as the Democrats. This is a bi-partisan issue.

[EST]

13. Would you expand your argument, please?

n/t

[Andy_Stephenson]

16. Vote rigging is a Bi-Partisan issue

both sides are guilty.

[ISUGRADIA]

8. Iowa Democratic Party is Pushing Absentee Voting

This allows the id'ed Dem voters to have their votes in before election day allowing more concentrated efforts on Demo leaners on election day. 30% or so of the Iowa vote will be from absentees I'm guessing for 2004.

[ParanoidPat]

10. Laws about who can use an 'absentee' ballot vary widely by state.......

......so it's best to check the laws for your state which can be found here. http://www.lawresearch.com/v2/statute/statstate.htm#elections

In general, it's best to leave a paper record of your intent in the form of a ballot. :evilgrin:

The main problem with the system as it now stands is that the laws don't call for an adequate audit of the paper ballots vs. the results reported by the machines at all levels of reporting.

Ideally, each precinct should publicly post the results for that precinct at the close of the polls before the results are transmitted to the County level and each County should publicly post the results for that County before the results are transmitted to the State. Additionally, a statistically significant percentage of the results (perhaps 5% or more) should be randomly audited by hand counting the paper ballots and comparing the results to the machine counts at each administrative level of the election.
That's the only way to be relatively certain that the machines are reporting the results correctly.

Rush Holt's Bill, the Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act of 2003, HR 2239 which has 149 co-sponsors, and it's companion S 1980, sponsored by Florida Senator Bob Graham and has 5 co-sponsors are a good start but call for too small of an audit to prevent fraud IMHO.

Both pieces of legislation contain the following language.

<Snip>

SEC. 4. PROMOTING ACCURACY, INTEGRITY, AND SECURITY THROUGH VOTER-VERIFIED PERMANENT RECORD OR HARD COPY.

(a) IN GENERAL- Section 301(a)(2) of the Help America Vote Act of 2002 (42 U.S.C. 15481(a)(2)) is amended to read as follows:

`(2) VOTER-VERIFICATION AND AUDIT CAPACITY-

`(A) VOTER-VERIFICATION IN GENERAL- The voting system shall produce a voter-verified paper record suitable for a manual audit equivalent or superior to that of a paper ballot box system, as further specified in subparagraph (B).

`(B) MANUAL AUDIT CAPACITY-

`(i) The voting system shall produce a permanent paper record, each individual paper record of which shall be made available for inspection and verification by the voter at the time the vote is cast, and preserved within the polling place in the manner in which all other paper ballots are preserved within the polling place on Election Day for later use in any manual audit.

`(ii) The voting system shall provide the voter with an opportunity to correct any error made by the system before the permanent record is preserved for use in any manual audit.

`(iii) The voter verified paper record produced under subparagraph (A) and this subparagraph shall be available as an official record and shall be the official record used for any recount conducted with respect to any election in which the system is used.

<Snip>

SEC. 7. REQUIREMENT FOR MANDATORY RECOUNTS.

The Election Assistance Commission shall conduct manual mandatory surprise recounts of the voter-verified records of each election for Federal office (and, at the option of the State or jurisdiction involved, of elections for State and local office) in .5 percent of the jurisdictions in each State and .5 percent of the overseas jurisdictions in which voter-verified records are preserved in accordance with this section immediately following each general election for Federal office, and shall promptly publish the results of those recounts. The treatment of the results of the recount shall be governed by applicable Federal, State, or local law, except that any individual who is a citizen of the jurisdiction involved may file an appeal with the Commission if the individual believes that such law does not provide a fair remedy.

<More>

[ParanoidPat]

12. Update for Washington State residents......

.......The link to the Revised Washington State Election Code, Title 29A RCW ELECTIONS, has changed.

The new link is, http://www.leg.wa.gov/rcw/index.cfm?fuseaction=title&title=29A :evilgrin:

[JohnGideon]

11. I Hope This Settles It

First, it makes no difference if you call it a ballot or a paper trail as long as it is defined as the record of your vote. All other arguments just muddy the waters of the real issue.

Now, your questions. No the fact that you vote absentee has no more of a guarantee than if you vote on a DRE or on a precinct based optical scan machine. It does give you a paper ballot for an audit trail and IF your county does audits of the paper ballots they can audit that ballot. If they do no audits then there is no difference at all.

Absentee ballot laws differ from state to state. You have to check your state. I don't see how Repugs can disqualify certain ballots and allow others unless they are looking at who was voted for on the ballot and picking and choosing. There would be no reason to do this.

Both parties are pushing people to vote absentee where it is easy to do that. The reason is that voters are much more likely to vote if they vote absentee than if they have to go to the polls on a particular day. In my precinct where I am Precinct Caucus Officer I am down to 12 voters who will be going to the polls out of over 400 voters. All the rest vote by mail.

[Boredtodeath]

14. Also, Not in Georgia

The State of Georgia has defined the official ballot as the electronic ballot ONLY. So, absentee voting insures only that your piece of paper is fed through an optical scanner turning it into an electronic vote. From that moment forward, the paper cannot be used to count a vote in any form or fashion.

[ParanoidPat]

15. Kick

:kick:

[Andy_Stephenson]

17. Yes it DOES make a difference...

Wether or not you call it a paper trail. If your calling it a paper trail you are hoping for electronic verification. Leave that door shut and closed tight. We have a 200+ year tradition of a BALLOT not a paper trail.

200+ years of case law have defined a ballot...Paper trail has NO such case law and would be left open to definition. It is disingenuous to say it does not matter because it does. If it didn't John you would not be so keen to define my ballot as a paper trail.

[JohnGideon]

18. Andy....

If you are attempting to say that anyone who says that it doesn't matter what you call it as long as you define it as a ballot is for electronic verification then you are dead wrong. I am for a paper ballot and only a paper ballot and I don't give a damn what it is called as long as it is defined as a paper ballot. If you are preparing an attack on me, like you have against some computer scientists lately; then bring it on.

The fact that you jump in and correct everyone who says paper audit trail, paper trail, etc. only distracts people from their arguments or their statements. It serves no purpose at all.

I'll also tell you that any state that has a paper trail or paper audit trail law, such as California and they define that paper trail or paper audit trail as being a piece of paper that is verified by the voter prior to the DRE recording the vote then they have defined a paper audit trail or paper trail the same as if it was a ballot. That is now law and stands-up in court, i.e. case law. So your argument to read your signature line is BS because your signature line is now BS.

This is a really silly discussion to have, Andy. There are better things to do than to argue over semantics. You keep spending your time correcting peoples words and I'll continue working on the issue of a voter verified paper ballot; however it is named.

[AirAmFan]

19. Re: Whether you must supply a REASON for voting absentee:

29 states now have early voting with NO explanation necessary. The situation varies not only by state but also by county within some states. In many counties, early voting can take place by paper ballot.

Go to http://www.ezvote.org and type in a 5-digit zipcode. You'll get the most thorough neighborhood voter info I've ever seen, including specific options for voting early in that area.

The 'Business-Industry Political Action Committee" (BIPAC) is the host of this page and the source of a great graphic in a recent free online Wall Street Journal article. See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x631925