Politics are getting too personal!

[Pushed To The Left]

I have been reading some things here that I find quite disturbing. A man commits an act of arson that could have been deadly and he is getting some support for his actions. People are discussing putting unwanted bumperstickers on other peoples' cars because they disagree politically or don't like what they drive. People harassing, flipping off, etc. people that they think are Republican. People making fun of the death of Ronald Reagan. Now, if we heard about conservatives doing this, or read that Freepers were bragging about it, we would be very angry. I feel that when people do these types of things, it hurts their cause. For example, imagine if an undecided swing voter on the road saw a person with a Kerry bumper-sticker honking at, screaming at, and flipping off another car with a Bush bumper-sticker. It wouldn't look good for our side.

I was driving a couple weeks ago, and put on my signal to change lanes. The car in the other lane noticeably slowed down
and was trying to let me in. I don't remember why, but I decided to put off the lane change and turned off my blinker. The car passed by and there was a "Bush/Cheney" sticker on the back window. I have Kerry stickers on both sides of my back window and I'm sure the other driver saw them, yet was making an extra effort to be courteous to me. My girlfriend's father was driving her mother's car that has a "Bush/Cheney" sticker displayed. While he was driving, a young woman yelled, pointed at the Bush sticker, and yelled "Loser!!!" My point is this: There are nice, kind people that I don't agree with politically, and there are some very unkind people that I do agree with.

You don't have to hate somebody to disagree with their politics. Now, some of you are going to be shocked, but I do NOT hate George W. Bush. I don't hate John Ashcroft or Rick Santorum either. It's their POLITICS that I hate!! Can't anybody see the difference anymore?

[Rowdyboy]

1. Good message...wrong time

Emotions are too high right now to appeal to people's better selves. Maybe after the election, when the Bush cabal is demolished, we can afford to show real class. Right now, you're just gonna get seriously flamed....

Best of luck and hope you have lots of asbestos lining.

[PatriotGames]

26. Word. Taking the high ground get syou nowhere these days...

when it comes to politics.

[JohnLocke]

2. First two paragraphs I agree with; last paragraph I don't.

[CrispyQ]

3. A while back there was a thread where someone asked . . .

Do you drive more courteously with a Kerry sticker on your car? The answers were all yes, of course I guess if you don't, you probably wouldn't respond. We don't want to give Kerry a bad name by cutting people off, flipping people off. That's how I feel anyway. I try to be courteous when driving all the time, but since I've put Kerry stickers on my truck I'm even more cognizant of it.

[napi21]

4. I hate to say it, but I'm afraid a lot of people don't see any diff.

I'm not sure what it is. I have to say that I don't disrespect people on the road for their politics. But I also have a very strong dislike for Shrub, Ashcroft, & Cheney. I don't know if I can call it hate. I hope I can still say I've never hated another person, ever! But something's different with this crowd. I really can't stand to watch any of them on TV, if I see or hear them, I change the chanel. I think it's the phonyness. I don't feel I can believe a word they say, and I'm tired getting aggrivated.

I guess everyone has a different method of expressing their feelings, and that's why you're seeing so much emotional display these days.

[Craig Roberts]

5. A good message anytime

There has to be a reason our side should win other than it is "our" side. We should be standing up for certain principles. One thing I believe is that popular right-wing politics has become hopelessly adolescent. Listen to Limbaugh any day of the week. The guy has the mentality of an obnoxious teenager. The more we allow that tone to dominate politics, the better it is for the right. The more we can elevate politics to a more mature and rational plane, the better it is for us.

[alittlelark]

15. uh, yeah.......

yeah

[Cleita]

6. I think a lot of the posts about doing damage to people's

bumper stickers and other such nonsense are juvenile and maybe there is your answer. I have ignored them, but maybe us more mature types need to say something although I kinda feel it would probably be a waste of time. Too bad, we can't pick up a phone and call their parents.

[nyhuskyfan]

7. Agreed the message is good...

A lot of the reason I despise Bush, Ashcroft, et al is that their politics effect me and my country. I don't despise a person at a bar who spouts on about how great Republicans are -- I just disagree with them. But when someone is in a position of power and you use that position to make irresponsible decisions and pass irresponsible legislation that hurts America or makes this country a worse place, then I am going to be bitter and vitrolic towards him.

I don't judge anyone for their bumper stickers or signs or anything like that. I will even listen to them support their side, maybe have a little argument, and simply agree to disagree. But I definitely will not listen to anyone on the right talk about how Democrats behave irresponsibly or don't show respect -- not with the way they've acted over the last 12 years.

Edited for poorly use of grammar

[H2O Man]

8. While I agree with much of what you say,

I believe that the Bush administration is far and away the most responsible for raising the level of anger and hostility in this nation (and around the globe). I think that George W. Bush has been the person most responsible for removing courtesy and manners from the political discourse in 2000 through 2004. And so I think that when we have a discussion among democrats, we have to start by identifying that.

How do we deal with the climate of fear and the violent atmosphere that Bush has created in America? That is where I agree with you, at least in large part, because we are responsible for our own actions. In fact, earlier today I put on a post on GD about dispute resolution, and how we as Americans need to drastically change the tone in American culture.

[enigmatic]

10. Thank Lee Atwater and Rush Limbaugh..

For most of this.

[H2O Man]

17. Very good point .....

clearly we have an intentional call upon the darker impulses of the American spirit.

[kikiek]

9. Funny the only incidents you recall have the Kerry supporters

acting aggressively. I don't know of any Kerry supporters who act the way you describe. Also I have been given the finger and honked at many times because of the bumper stickers I have on my car. I have had signs stolen out of my yard and dirty notes left in the mailbox. Living in MN I heard many people make fun of Wellstone's death. I don't agree with it on either side. Either you haven't seen it from the Republicans or chose not to mention it. I find that odd.

[Pushed To The Left]

19. No, I've heard about it on both sides

It just bothers me more to see my side doing it, because it hurts our cause. I disagree with these actions regardless of what side the people who do them are politically.

[kikiek]

23. Yes it is disturbing. I have to agree with the poster that the climate

created by people like Savage and Limbaugh has changed politics forever. Not to mention witnessing the low level Bush and Rove have stooped to in this election and every other they've been involved in has fostered this repulsive behavior. They don't seem to care that people believe they are just following their lead. Just like the kids riding with the parents of the ones giving you the finger the behavior is learned and reinforced.

[alittlelark]

11. Given the hell-highway our country is currently on.......

I taught my kids not to use the word 'hate.

But, Did the founding father's 'dislike King George's policies?

Did slaves 'dislike' their masters politics?

Did unionists 'dislike' their company's policies?

You can probably see where I am doing here...in extreme cases, such as the one we are in emotions run hot for democrats, and cognitive dissonance messes w/ republicans.

It's a time-tested recipe (albeit different ingredients), the question is, how will it be cooked.

[skygazer]

12. It's very personal

It always has been. We're talking about issues that affect our lives intimately. From the beginning of our history, people have gotten passionately involved in the political process - it's not purely an intellectual exercise. It really means something. And frankly, people NEED to be passionate - no, I don't torch people's cars or start riots but I understand the emotion that causes that level of frustration. These are our core beliefs - passion is a perquisite. Sometimes it's going to overflow.

[Pushed To The Left]

40. I'm extremely passionate

I want nothing more than to smash the right wing. What I'm saying is that I can like and respect somebody on a personal level even if I want to annihliate them at the voting booth. It is normal for things to get heated, but when we start getting into vandalism and harassing people with differing views on the road (on both sides), things have gotten out of control.

[Vickers]

13. The RW has set the tone, unfortunately

Go to www.freerepublic.com and check out the hate...we are a bunch of kittens compared to the fucksticks over there.

I like the idea of a perfect world; unfortunately, I ain't living in it.

[Rowdyboy]

31. "fucksticks" is good....but someone earlier used "fucktards" which I

REALLY like...

[Nimrod]

14. I totally agree

More, behavior like this is essentially pointless. I know that people are under a lot of emotional stress, and a LOT of people are feeling - frankly - powerless.

Say you yell "Loser" at someone. What does it do? Do you say to yourself, "Guess I showed THEM!", "Got 'em good, didn't I?", "NOW they'll see what a loser they are!"? Well, maybe you DO say that to yourself, but all you did was reaffirm to them that you're an ass and give them another reason to feel like they're in the right.

[Junkdrawer]

16. When you start preemptive wars for oil, and justify it with terror...

people's passions do tend to get engaged - on both sides.

[anarchy1999]

18. Unfortunately I believe "politics" has always been personal. The

difference now is there is a lot of HATE involved that in my lifetime I've never seen before (not ashamed to admit, I'm getting way too close to being 50 for comfort).

I was just a teenager in the late 60's early 70's and maybe I was just not paying attention, maybe I was just naive, but something this time seems very wrong. I had two very ugly encounters on the road during 2002, so frightening that I have no bumper stickers on my car now. In addition I had my little cream puff of a Honda Civic severely keyed all up and down the driver's side of my car. But then what can you say, I live in that "Christian love" place called North Dallas.

[LibraLabSoldier]

20. Ok, to be fair

i was actually joking about the bumper stickers. I have been insulted repeatedly in the few days I have been posting here. People do not agree with my opinions and things I have seen and heard about our war in Iraq. I have been called a liar, and worse. I thought people wanted to know the truth. But when the truth doesnt agree with what someone else believes, they decide the messenger is at fault.

It is hard to keep a clear head during all this madness. This is one of the most acrimonious presidential elections in history. We need to get past this.

[salinen]

22. Huh?

i was actually joking about the bumper stickers. I thought people wanted to know the truth.

What?

[Pushed To The Left]

36. I didn't realize that you were kidding before

I have heard of people really doing that sort of a thing before, so when I read those posts I thought it was being seriously considered. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. Too late...the NeoCons let Pandora out of the box in December 2001....

...and they've proceeded to rub our noses in it for four long years.

And yes, I absolutely hate the NeoCons with a passion for what they've done to my country, and for what they've done to our reputation overseas. I also hate them for the deaths of almost a thousand Americans who have died in Iraq because of the lies told by the NeoCons. And I hate them for all of the dead Middle Easterners who have died because of the basic greed of the NeoCons and their corporate backers.

Additionally, you're missing a key component of this issue. It's the people that you can't hate for whatever mistaken reason that are driving the NeoCon train!

Wake the hell up! They will destroy you as well as the rest of us if we don't remove them from power now!

[Old and In the Way]

24. It goes back earlier than that.

We suffered through the Clinton Inquisition of the 90s. That was an 8 year war against Democrats. If Republicans had held Dimson accountable, a lot of our hate for them would be diffused. They haven't, so I really have no problems standing up for my candidate.

I am never rude with people, but I don't back down when someone tries to push their Republican politics on me.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. Excellent point...I failed to go back far enough.

[69KV]

25. Well, it's easy to assume

It's easy to assume when I see somebody with a W04 or Bush Cheney sticker that they are evil, nasty people, and the reason for this is because the high profile spokespeople for the right, like Limbaugh, Savage, Hannity, Coulter, Robertson, and the rabble who hang out on Free Republic are evil, nasty people. Like it or not, they are the public face of conservatism today, and by displaying Bush stickers people are showing their identification with conservatism. As long as Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter and Free Republic are spokespeople for conservatism, I will have a hard time treating anyone supporting conservatism with respect as fellow human beings.

I have tried to give everybody the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are good people who can disagree on things. But then I repeatedly run into asshole websites like metrospy.com, or books in the bookstore calling me a traitor for being a liberal and books spreading despicable lies about John Kerry in Vietnam, or asshole billboards like this one: http://www.boomspeed.com/ebuck/

And when I see those things, any effort I have made to give conservatives the benefit of the doubt and treat them with respect just dries up, and I see them all as wicked people, who side with evil for the sake of siding with evil because it makes them feel like a badass for doing so. I have gone so far as to entertain thoughts that right wing activists are in fact traitors to everything this country stands for and should be all put on trial. After all, this country was founded by liberals on principles of liberalism, we had a civil war and a world war to defeat the extreme right wing, and now the extreme right wing has made a comeback and wants to tear down and destroy everything good ever built in this country, civil rights, a safety net, education, health care, voting rights, privacy rights, unions, womens rights, and a decent, moderate foreign policy. They want to destroy the very middle class itself, because the middle class rises and falls with liberal fiscal policies. Like it or not, if somebody is displaying a W04 sticker, *that* is what they are supporting: The abolition of the middle class and a return to the robber baron era.

If having such thoughts is wrong for liberals then maybe it is wrong for liberals. We're supposed to be above that, right?

But this is what it has come to, and it was the right wing, its leadership, and its spokespeople who created this situation. If the right wing wants me to respect conservatives as basically decent people once again, they are going to have to silence their extremist and hateful wing. This means that the Republican party is going to have to pressure Limbaugh and Hannity and Savage to retire from talk radio, Ann Coulter to move to some desert island and stop writing, Faux News and Freerepublic.com to go the way of the 8-track tape, and the Swift Boat Liars to crawl back under their rock and go back to coverly masturbating to Soldier of Fortune magazine. On the other hand if it's another civil war the Repukes want, they should be careful what they wish for because the extreme right wing has a poor record in those things, having lost the American Revolution, the Civil War, and WWII.

We have a pretty clear choice this election. Kerry is in the political center and is the candidate of mainstream America, while Bush is so far to the right he is beyond the bounds of reasonable debate. Display of a W04 sticker doesn't exactly show me that the person doing so is either mentally sane or anywhere near the political mainstream. This election is just like the one in France a few years ago, between Chirac in the center, and LePen on the ultra-right. I don't know, should LePen supporters have been shown respect as decent people with reasonable points of view?

You do have a good point that Kerry supporters should be friendly and watch what we do, not be rude etc. The swing vote will note our behavior. But, it's also fairly safe to assume that if somebody has a W04 sticker, they are not a swing voter and are beyond hope.

[Ms. Clio]

27. You are mischaracterizing the discussion about bumper stickers

In this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2246423

Thus far, the conclusion is DON'T DO IT--so I'm not sure what you are complaining about?

[LibraLabSoldier]

32. Besides,

As i said earlier, it was mostly a joke between my wife and I. And that was largely because i am against the lethality and gas un-economy of SUVs in general. DOes every post get taken so seriously in here?

[kikiek]

34. Some days it seems the skin is too thin and the skull is too thick. Mostly

it is OK though! I loved your enthusiasm.

[Ms. Clio]

44. I knew you were joking about that

But sometimes it's hard to tell, in this medium.

Anyway, it seems to be cleared up, now.

[Pushed To The Left]

39. I thought that it was being seriously considered

After reading the newer posts, I realize that it wasn't. I have heard of people actually doing that sort of a thing, and it really bothers me. I'm sorry about the misunderstanding.

[Ms. Clio]

45. Great, glad we got that straightened out

"That sort of thing" is vandalism, and I can understand why you would be concerned about it.

But as to your original point in this thread--I have also read some posts here about people doing stupid stuff on the freeways to other people driving vehicles with Bush bumper stickers, and thought it was disturbing. That behavior is incredibly juvenile, not to mention completely counterproductive. In fact, whenever I put my Kerry/Edwards sticker on my car (it's magnetic), I find myself driving much more carefully and courteously, as if to prove that Dems are good citizens!

[ClassWarrior]

29. Politics are always personal.

It's a matter of balance. Like most things.

[specimenfred1984]

30. I Disagree, Lying about Nuclear Weapons is Personal

Price fixing oil, gas, heating oil, natural gas, healthcare, taxes is personal, I buy the stuff.

Issuing death threats to me in the form of false terror alerts is personal. I have to think about dying.

Lying about medicare is personal. My mother-in-law now chooses between food and drugs.

Directly calling me a lying when I say people have been tortured is also personal. A minister friend of mine lies to my face all the time about torture, WMD and every other brainwashed right-wing talking point.

It's personal alright, they are lying, stealing and propagandizing my country like the Nazis they are.

I live near D.C. and know people who have been smeared. Their livelihoods are directly threatened by lies that have been proven to be lies.

The only work in D.C. now is with Homeland Security or "Torture Incorporated". Getting work is personal.

I have friends in Iraq getting shot at almost everyday. I personally like my friends alive!

[Tight_rope]

33. Politics has "ALWAYS" been personal!

[stavka]

35. "Politics" as a polite discourse is a notion limited to democracy

"Politics" fucks people every day in every nation on every continent.

Only those in control can say that "politics" need to be more polite.

If you need to make appologies for your your boss, your friends, your company, or your government and are willing to do so - guess what?

- SOMEBODY is profitting by your willingness to do so - so keep up the good work!

[roach23]

37. my .02

As a person in my 20's, I consider a vote for Bush a vote for putting me in a body bag, so I take it EXTREMELY personal.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Baja Margie]

41. We were going to have a Kerry Party here at the house,

I had it registered on the Kerry Volunteer sight, and it was going to be an open beach-surf-rock'n roll thing, we expected alot of people, even though they would have to cross the Border. My big mistake was listing my e-mail publically. I received so much cyberhate mail, we just got scared and cancelled the event. These people are nutters.

Now, I won't flip anyone off or scream at them,I won't even talk to them, it's pointless, they are blockheads and I don't need the agro. But, I do participate in covert actions, like keeping a look out when Mike drew a swastika on Chimpy's face on the life size replica the guy had next to his table registering Republicans.

Heh, that's our duty. Covert, people, covert. Quick and fast, they won't even know what hit'em, and you just disappear into the crowd.... :kick:

[YoQuieroLiberty]

42. I think it's all healthy, in a way

This Bush administration is more secretive and smug than even Nixon's...the message is essentially 'Fuck you.' As middle-of-the-road as I am, I like when people say 'No, fuck YOU. We'll be here LONG after your sorry ass is gone.'

[fujiyama]

43. I never heard about the arson incident

Do you have a link for that thread?

I agree about flicking people off and getting into arguments on the road. This is immature, foolish, and dangerous. Vandalism and harrasement are not right, no matter who does it. When I see a person with a B/C sticker, I'll simply try to pass them and leave them in the dust. Interacting with those people isn't worth it.

I do NOT agree about not hating Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, and Santorum. I do find politics personal and find my civil liberties and the constitution important. I love this country, and I don't like what these people are doing to it. In fact, I can say I HATE what they're doing to it. I also am not going to naively believe that these people mean well, but look at things differently. No, I think they're in fact closet fascists and are taking America down a dark and dangerous path.

That said, I'm not going to get into arguments and fights with random people on the road. Those people are mostly nuts. I'm not going to risk my life over some half wit with a B/C bumper sticker.