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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 10:59 PM
Original message
The victims of class and culture
This was brought up today in some threads about certain practices in other countries and ethnic groups as being part of the culture and part of the class structure. Many years ago I read about female circumcision in certain cultures. It was done so the female would feel no pleasure during sex. It was believed a girl would be a better wife and mother if she underwent such a ritual. Evidently, no one thought of an equally devastating procedure for the boys, so they would grow up to be better husbands and fathers, but I digress.

The westerners who came across this practice, anthropologists and missionaries, believed that to impose our cultural standards on these indigenous people would be unwelcome. Yes, it would be, but no one gave a thought about the procedure, performed on prepubescent girls who had no say in it, as being, well awful. Nobody even mentioned that maybe this was barbaric to a tribal chief or even one of his no doubt circumcised wives, so life hummed along until some feminists in the seventies became a little bit horrified.

Since then this procedure has been outlawed in many of the countries it is practiced in. We aren’t there yet, as the procedure is still often practiced illegally, but at least members of those cultures, who were probably victims themselves, came forward and managed to get laws passed banning the practice, thanks to the fact that some feminists shined a light on it.

You see when a practice becomes ingrained in a culture to the point where it is passed on from generation to generation; it makes it almost seem right. Even those victimized by a custom often think it’s right. But, in fact, it isn’t right. Unfortunately, the victims of the culture are usually those at the bottom of the social structure who have little say about what happens to them.

I grew up listening to the class argument from my mother. (For those who don’t know me, my father was an American employed in Chile and my mother was Chilean). I spent my childhood and teenaged years living partly in the USA and partly in Chile. You came from a certain class, my mother told me, and you knew your place is how her mantra went. Yet I wondered why the young woman, who was the same age as I was when I lived in Chile, made my bed and did my laundry while I was able to go to high school and think about proms and such things that teenaged Americans enjoyed.

This woman had no future. I did. But, she wasn’t my social class, I was informed. A young girl was condemned to a life of domestic servitude because of her class. No one even encouraged her to continue in school because at the age of fourteen, she was told to go get a job by her family. They had too many other mouths to feed. She was old enough to look after herself. That was the system, the culture. She was a victim of the class she was born in.

She became pregnant by her boyfriend, a laborer, also from the underclass. Since in those days, no one kept a pregnant maid around, she was sent on her way. She was coerced by her family to marry the father of her child, even though she didn’t want to, and two years later he beat her to death because he said she was unfaithful. No one investigated. No one came to her defense, including me, because I was having my own pater et mater familia problems about this issue. But let me move on to a European people that Americans are more familiar with, the British.

The British are very class minded which is why you had the abuses of Victorian England that Charles Dickens wrote about so eloquently trying to bring into the mainstream discussion, the plight of under classes in England. Back then it wasn’t even about race. They victimized their own because of class and because of culture. Fortunately the English have made progress in the social areas that we here in all of the Americas are sorely lacking except for Canada.

So this brings me up to now. Why are we tolerating the abuse we heap on the poor people from Central America, who come here because life sort of sucks for them in their own country because of culture and class? Why is it okay for the upper classes in their countries to victimize the lower classes and least able to defend themselves because it’s the culture?

Many of the young people who come here illegally to work at underpaid, back breaking, or dangerous jobs, without the benefit of the law to defend them, are still teenagers, like my mother’s maids from so many years ago. They have to negotiate the hazards of working here, of being victimized, used, and often having crimes committed against them because they believe life will be better for them. They also dutifully send money home in spite of the problems.
You know, victims don’t always speak up. But if we, who do know they are being victimized by even very ingrained cultural traditions don’t speak up, who will?

Yet, some posts are about happy natives when they visited south of the border. I am certain many of them are happy. They don’t have to deal with the stresses we do, but it doesn’t mean that they haven’t been victimized by the system. Also, most people, including the poor and disadvantaged don’t particularly want to air their dirty linen in front of you.

But I don’t know why I even bother bringing this up. When I brought up to a club of democrats and liberals I belong to about the increasing number of homeless in our area and what could be done to help them, I might as well have been talking about Martians, if you saw the blank stares I got. I know how Charles Dickens felt. I only wish I could be as eloquent.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. "There but for
the grace of God, go you and I"
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes.
This isn't a popular subject I know. It never is.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well, when I used the phrase, "culture and class"
Edited on Sun Aug-22-04 03:03 AM by meluseth
I was simply thinking of cultural notions of class.

For example, the meaning of the term "middle class" in the United States is apparently quite different than in Britain. I read an essay by a British prof who used to be surprised that all her American students described themselves as "middle class"--to her that conjured up notions of factory owners and a really luxurious lifestyle. What she learned, however, was that even working-class families in the U.S. tend to describe themselves as "middle class"--it's our culture.

I don't think acknowledging that for different cultures, class means different things, is to in any way justify or condone the real and terrible impacts and abuses of those systems.

(edited for clarity)

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I wasn't singling you out. I really wasn't
It's just that in Latin American countries class really means caste as it does in England and it figures very much into keeping a segment of the population struggling and underprivileged. I remember being taught in school about America not having a class society and that was one of the reasons we broke away from England as colonies and formed into a nation.

We all know that this is far from the truth. We have a class society just as much as any other country, but it is more fluid and wealth has much to do with that fluidity, whereas in other societies you are born into it. It's about your lineage and it is part of the reason many of these children and their parents are victims from birth. It IS part of the culture.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
31. Okay, because I do understand what you meant
It's also very debatable how fluid the class structure in the U.S. really is. I saw some stats once that indicated that most people will never move into a social and economic strata higher than that of their father. The flashy exceptions, the rags to riches stories, obscure the reality that generations of Americans are born, live, and die in poverty. Especially, of course, people who aren't white.



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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I agree.
Mostly in this country, it is who you know. There is more fluidity for those who can achieve, however, what isn't said is that those who have to struggle to achieve a level of accomplishment just arrive up there with those guys who got it anyway.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think that I know what you mean
I read the thread that I think you are referring to also.
My first lab job that I had after college was at a plant that added a shift during their busy season. I worked on that shift which was 80% Hispanic, most of them migrant or recent Mexican immigrants. My best friend there had been in the U.S. around 8 years and was a recent high school graduate. In Mexico, they had done alright for people in their part of Mexico. They had a decent house and raised livestock and vegtables in their courtyard. Instead of working in the textile factories, they made and sold undergarments on their own. The father came to the U.S. a couple seasons for the ag industry and sent the extra money home. Her parents decided to come to the U.S. permanently so their children could have better oppurtunities. They had only gone to primary school like most adults in their town. It was rare for anyone but the rich to go high school. By then, children were supposed to be working to help their family. They moved their family to the U.S. so their children could have the freedom to be educated and go to college if they wanted to, not because they were in any danger of starving.
As another poster said, it depends on what you mean by poor, middle class, rich. I think that it makes a difference if you know that your children upon birth are doomed to be poor no matter what you do if you stay where you are. Social mobility is tough in the United States to some extent, but it can be real for children of families who are dedicated to that cause in the form of exposing the children to positive role models and helping them do well in school as opposed to moving far away in order to give their children a chance.
As a contrast, not all Mexican immigrants who worked at the plant came from poor backgrounds. A woman who worked on the first shift was married to a U.S. citizen and had come from quite a different background. Since she was a permanent employee she had paid sick days which she always was sure to use, most of the time because she was tired. She explained it to me. In Mexico, her family had maids who did everything for them and they worked for very little. They worked for very little because they were from poor families and they had more maids than they really needed because they were doing these families a favor by employing the young women. She regretted that in the U.S. that the maids expect to be paid almost as much as she was currently making which she considered ridiculous. She looked down on many of the other Mexican immigrants, including my friend. They weren't her type of people.
Some people think that American rich and even middle class are arrogant and out of touch with the poor and want to keep them down, but I was amazed at this woman's arrogance. In the interest of time, I'll save the story of elite Africans at my college and their hatred and disgust of their poor for another day.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Are you sure she wasn't my mother? LOL
Yes, this is the excuse for employing maids in exchange for room and board and a small amount of spending money. You were being charitable because you really didn't need that many maids. We had three or four at a time crowded like roomates in the tiny maid's room. In some respects it's true. My father once question my mother about why so many? She said that she couldn't refuse the last one a fifteen, year old, because she was so ragged looking. Oh yes, the maids also had the big fringe benefits of getting the family's cast off clothing and linens.

When my father retired and they moved to the states, they both found that the retirement income they had planned on was rapidly vanishing with inflation and my father's health problems. Mamacita had to get her first job at the age of forty six. Oh yes, my father was twenty five years older than her, but that used to be standard in Latin American countries.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. British Class in America
Much of what you discuss i would call "racism", not "class".
That said, i find that what "class" is in britain is in america
"wealth". The same dividing factors are there, and wealthy folks
prefer to rub shoulders with their skull and bones chums, not the
homeless... just like the posh mens clubs of britain past.

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. It's very much based on racism in Latin America.
Edited on Sun Aug-22-04 11:24 AM by Cleita
When the Spaniards conquered Latin America they lived in a feudal society themselves. Although in Spain the peasant class were those who were bound to the land like serfs. Once here, they just subjected the native population to work for them in semi-slavery. When the natives died from disease and abuse, they started importing slaves from Africa, an institution our British colonies took up as well. Although the Catholic Church suceeded in getting slavery banned in most of Latin America, the caste system remained.
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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
9. Hi Cleita
This is a personal issue with you..and i can certainly understand why it is...between you and mom it has been an ongoing debate and has caused, it seems, a lot of tension over the years. I believe that one way of looking at it would be that..a countries culture is that which exists and has evolved for thousands of years to be where it is at any given point in time...it is neither right or wrong...it just is..and is because that is where it has evolved to at this time. I know you feel and have expressed that it is an acceptance of injustices to just accept the culture as it is when you see, from you perspective that things are not as they should be in the human rights arena of the culture. However, humans in other cultures too have their rights..and one of them is to determine their own destiny and to evolve as they will..much misery has been inflicted by those who decide that it is their will or their moral code that is the right one..and the only way to live or believe..and it has throughout time been a rationale to invade and "improve" another's culture so that these others..will learn to think and believe correctly...and become morally correct in their culture. Other countries have the right to evolve in their own direction at their own time. The expression "ugly American" evolved from Americans going to other countries and expressing over and over that your country doesn't do it right, you people shouldn't be this way, or this is not how we do it in the USA...the general reaction to this...though certainly rarely expressed to tourists, is this.."if you dint like how we do it, go home". you are right that people dint always express how they feel to Americans. more often, this verbal abuse is taken with a smile..and a nod....and a spit in your beer.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I have to do something right now
but I will be back to gently shoot holes in your assumptions.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. The ugly american is not quite so shallow
As an american who has spent many years abroad, and lived in several
countries having visited over 50, i find your explanation of what
deems some americans "ugly" to be short.

I've never met the stereotype who did not mind constructive
criticism of their politics. Certainly, many foreign peoples feel
justly qualified to do the same with american politics... and it is
welcome, not offensive.

What makes americans ugly abroad, is that the major force of
americans in other lands are not tourists, but military assholes.
The cases of rape in okinawa of local teenagers by our uniformed
criminals... and on and on in every bloody place where the military
sets foot.

The ugly american is an institution. It is our government that
can't count votes telling others they should be more democratic. It
is fingerprinting people who want to visit the USA and then
complaining when those countries seek to fingerprint US nationals.
Embedded in the ugly american is white supremacy. It is not some
ignorant tourists mouthing off... it is far uglier.

If you see that film, "the quiet american", it portrays the tone
of ugliness rather well.

I find that people abroad love american people individually, when
they question everything, its refreshing like emperor's new clothes.
Who faults the kid for pointing to the kings nakedness.

Ugly americans: Supporting Musharraf's dictatorship and its
subversion of democracy, supporting israel and its ethnic cleansing
apartheid state, supporting the genocide in east timor, etc.. etc..
the ugly american is the white house and the military.

I took a flight out of a london airport with 3 young american
gentlemen who were visiting europe on military leave, obviously
based on their tatoos, haircuts and demeanor. They ate macdonalds
in the stanstead airport lounge and talked loudly in uncouth
half-english leaving their trash for someone else to clean up. They
were scary and rather thuggish, so nobody dared appraoch them.
I was embarassed for them.

Methinks more research in to your stereotypes might be in order.
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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. you are right
i can not..and do not claim to speak for "everywhere" or "everyone" when it comes to my personal observation of the "ugly American"...i live near Cancun in Mexico...with thousands and thousands of tourists each year...not military personal..just your many tourists from the usa...and the "ugly american" stereotype...and behavior is alive and well in the area where i live. I do not claim that it is as prevalent elsewhere..i have no idea about elswhere..and yes, Americans who live and work and appreciate and respect the culture here are treated well and welcomed....but Cancun has really no industry except tourism..it was created as a city for that purpose..and does well as such...and truely..no one would call an American tourist on anything they say about Mexico or mexicans..just smile and agree...such is life when your life is serving tourists...and your livelihood depends on it.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Me too...
Been living in Cancun since March and am compelled to agree with you. I gotta admit though, the few times I venture into the Hotel Zone, the Ugly American aroma really gets to me. I'm probably seeing too many college kids away from home feeling that all bets are off and they can do anything they want and feel that they can treat the nationals like dirt.

It's disheartening until I go back to my place in El Centro and realize that my neighbors like me... regardless of my nationality. :)
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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Isnt the Cancun hotel zone a hoot?
it is scary to go in there....ha! First of all...it is like visiting Ft. Lauderdale..hahahahahahah!! No hint that you are in Mexico..and all the tourists are terrified of leaving that "safe" zone...the rest of us are terrified of going into it...hahahaha! Ever get over to Isla?
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. La Placita del Torro... the only place in town
El Centro and the Hotel Zone: two completely different worlds. The only reason I go in the Hotel Zone is a friend of mine just recently opened a new club (Over 30's) and I feel obligated to spend a few bucks on a beer in there once or twice a week. The rest of the time, I'm a happy camper staying in El Centro and hanging out at La Placita del Torro on Calle Bonampak- best place in Cancun for local ambience, a few Sol's and a good meal... :)


"Ever get over to Isla?"

No. Still slowly feeling my way around El Centro like a blind man in a new house. Unless... is Isla the 40 minute ferry boat ride? If that's the case, I did go there once for a site inspection.

I know... I don't get out too much. I've even started dating a girl who lives in Puerto Meurelas (sp?) and I force her to come into Cancun so we can see each other. As a fellow Anglo, I'm sure you can understand my reticence to drive myself around. Give me a year, and then maybe I'll feel safe behind the wheel, but as for now I simply take taxi's. :)
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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Lanternwaste
u get to isla mujeres by taking the boat from puerto jarez..about 20 mins..cab to the port. I also love Puerto Meurelas..if u get a chance..actually go there see where she lives...your girl friend..it really, really is a nice town.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Well, my friend's family left the country
Edited on Sun Aug-22-04 12:04 PM by Nikia
As have many other Mexicans. I don't know if this is good indication that most Mexicans like how their culture and country is developing. As I understand it, the gap between the rich and the poor is widening, not shrinking. In the past generation, they have been regressing, not progressing as far as having a more equal society.
I know that we should not step in and try to force a culture onto people that they don't want or aren't ready for. In some cases, there are competing interests. For example, in many countries, the rich are happy with how things are going and the poor are not happy with how things are going. In the Southern United States before the Civil War, many rich whites were happy owning slaves and really thought that the blacks were better off being slaves.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. In reply to your assertion that people are free to choose their destiny
Mexico’s culture is based on the Spanish feudal system from the time of the conquistadores superimposed on the existing Aztec and other native cultures of the time. In order to determine their own destiny everyone needs to have a say in how they evolve. This was not the case in Latin America or Mexico. One group of people decided the destiny of other groups and it became institutionalized.

“If you dint like how we do it, go home". I do agree with that statement, but really how many of us anywhere tell the boss, the City Hall politician, the rude client or customer to go to Hell. You are right that “people dint always express how they feel to Americans. More often, this verbal abuse is taken with a smile..and a nod....and a spit in your beer.” In all my years of restaurant work, first as a waitress in college, as a bookkeeper and often bartending as a second job, the only beer spitting I saw was done by white Anglo-americans. The rest of us just made fun of them in the kitchen and laughed it off, in Spanish of course.

My point of course is about institutionalized cultural victimization. It’s about the people who have had their fate determined for them by someone else. It’s no wonder that they will try to find a life elsewhere, which is why we have an immigration problem of illegals coming over here. We have institutionalized this problem ourselves and quite honestly it has been estimated that California’s economy would be in dire straits if all the illegals were suddenly shipped back over the border.

In the meantime, those kids working after school for tips at Wal-Mart, I am sure would rather being playing soccer after school. They most likely have to help the family out with the added income. Imagine if mama had daycare and she and papa had jobs that paid living wages with benefits like healthcare, I doubt very much that you would see those kids again.

You see there are a lot of cultural institutions you can change without harming the culture. I mean there was a time you had to give up your firstborn to be sacrificed to the gods. There was the practice of suttee in India, a very ancient practice of putting the wife of a deceased man on the funeral pyre to be burned alive. This practice lasted until the last century when the British passed laws about it. India's culture is still alive and well. Even the Aztec practice of human sacrifice was stopped by the Spaniards.

Ask the victims what they think of a practice. Many are brainwashed into believing it is their lot in life, but many more would hope for change. This is why they reach for another place. Even the pregnant maid asked me to teach her English so she could maybe get a better job with the Americans.
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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Bloom where you are planted!
Wherever there is injustice, there will be those who will seek to change it..to make it more just and more fair...and there will be those who have an interest in maintaining the status quo..it is the process of evolution in any country...and the status quo is always reinforced by by all of the social institutions..the family, the church, the govt,the economic system and the educational system. The overthrowing of a culture can be achieved more easily by the invasion of a stronger group from outside of a culture...but the actual change in culture will take thousands and thousands of years. I dint disagree at all with your assessment that we should care about all of the victimized in our own countries and in the world. Some things are just too horrid to ignore..too sad to not be aghast at the injustice of it..and the pain of it to those who we know are experiencing such pain and victimization. We all are mortified at the thought that some countries and cultures still practice female circumcision...and the point that this continues mostly due to its long cultural standing in such cultures. However, you can help end this by contribution to those who have..within their own cultures..established groups to work within their own culture to end this victimization of women...hold a big garage sale..and send your money to these folks who can make a difference. They want money, they have asked those in the world who would like to see this practice end to help. This is how you help! This is how you can best help. In the USA, it is cosmetic sport to cut up ones body..but no one is terribly mortified by that barbaric practice. Why? It is greatly encouraged by the culture in the USA! One has to be culturally correct in how they look..and are every bit the victim of culture as those who cut up their bodies in other countries. How many breast implants done annually in the USA? Nose jobs? Face lifts? Tummy tucks? Dangerous chemicals soaked into hair to change its color or curl it or straighten it? AT what age does this mutilation start? Our own culture doesn't horrify us because it is normal in our culture to mutilate ourselves in this way. Trust a country and a culture to evolve as it should..and it is basically that...trust that other countries and other peoples are as able as they need to be to work out their own evolution. People are good..are basically good and can be trusted to evolve to their own goodness in their own time. That doesn't mean you should not help when help is asked for or when you can, it just means that it is not..in my humble opinion...OK for one country or culture to impose its values and/or timetable for change on another. Bloom where you are planted.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I never spoke about imposing our culture on others.
Edited on Sun Aug-22-04 02:25 PM by Cleita
I spoke about ending institutionalized victimization because it supposedly is cultural. Also, in the case of Mexico and Latin America at large, it is the injustices of their governments to the underclasses that is affecting our country. First, there is the illegal immigration problem and secondly there is the drug problem being imported into our country. So, when the institutions of one country affect another country, then it goes beyond minding your own business.

What if one day you came home and found your neighbors swimming in your pool uninvited because they didn't have one and the temperature was over 100 degrees that day. What would you do?

As far as body mutilation, if it is done willingly, I say do it. I don't have to approve of tattoos, body piercing or boob jobs, but I am pretty sure that the women who subject themselves to this do it willingly. Other types of mutilation are not so black and white and one really has to question whether the practice is voluntary or imposed on the person.

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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. one more thing...
we may have some differences on philosophy, but I love and admire your passion and your caring for your fellow human beings.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. Trust a country and a culture to evolve as it should..
Sorry, with FGM (not female 'circumcision' as you put it) I don't 'trust' anyone.

Read model Waris Diri's account of her own FGM done in the Sudan by a gypsy woman when she was five...it was done with broken glass...sewn up by thorns...afterward, she had her legs tied together and had to lay that way for weeks to heal...she remembers looking up and seeing strips of her flesh lying on a rock... Urination takes ten minutes afterward, and menstruation is a nightmare...for pregnancy, one must be cut open and then after delivery sewn back up...the horrors go on, many girls die from infection.

I just recently read a book called Black Kingdoms, Black Peoples that had FGM originating as a pre-muslim African tribal rite. I tend to believe this because it makes more sense than anything else I have read on the subject, and because Islam has been so astute at absorbing all the traditions of the peoples it overran. The myth went that it was a passage into specific genderhood (this is extreme paraphrase), that the male must cut off the part resembling a vagina, the foreskin, and the female must cut off the part resembling a penis (the clitoris), to become fully the gender into which they were born. The buildings and language of this trible (which at writing were still practicing the rite) were very imbued with gender, there was a photo of wood-carvings of breasts (which were holy, not prurient) hanging on the walls of the men's meeting house. I'm not even sure if these people's intended FGM to have anything to do with inhibiting sexual arousal, but the fact can't be denied that it is brutal heinous child abuse, as is circumcision, and the fact that we practice these idiotic and unscientific tribal rites in the 21st century shows that we can't be "trusted to evolve" with regards to child mutilation, and it also seems to indicate that we are LESS evolved than even the most primitive animals.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Wow, what I was informed about was bad, but
this tops it. :-(
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. FGM definitely predates Islam
Edited on Sun Aug-22-04 10:44 PM by meluseth
Just like many of the Taliban's beliefs and practices in Afghanistan are based on tribal customs, not Islam.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
18. People want to help what they perceive is abuse and victimizing
Edited on Sun Aug-22-04 02:36 PM by Marianne
I agree that interference with culture and it's totems, or it's religious practices , or it's rights of passage, is exactly that--a sort of a righteous interference and a lack of understanding of the intriciate weavings of that culture which has worked for their survival for perhaps a thousand years. Which may change all by itself at some point.

Interference, although the motive is well meaning, can also work against a culture that victimizes no one but let's say, does not perform cliterectomy, but instead encourages joyous and free sexual mores beginning at puberty -- there are many, I am sure you know, who would be aghast and who would immeditely seek to end this fornication amongst children-coming of age in Samoa for example. A custom amongst the Eskimos was to offer one's wife to a traveller and nothing was though of it--nor was the wife victimized , by the standards of her comfortable and stable culture--it is only to Westerners that this practice was perceived as victimizing.

Women baring their breasts in traditional dress, caused those who thought they should help, were forced to cover up their bare breasts because it offended the Westerners. (maybe Ashcroft had something to do with it) The women in the culture had no shame-why would they?-it was their culture , their stability and their ability to continue their culture for the next generation. Consequently, the change in thier self esteem was altered by "well meaning" people and that is as bad as anything a so called backward culture could do to victimize people.

Pick and choose what you want to "change" and that leads to a mild sort of tyranny as well as a rather righteousness that in itself can be condescending

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. What you are talking about is imposing our culture on others.
It was like trying to modernize Arab societies by forcing women to give up the veil. I am very much against that. Many Arab women choose to wear the veil or the hajib even when they don't have to, like in America. What I am talking about is calling certain institutionalized abuses on any underclass that people think is okay because it's their culture.

Now I would never go to Mexico and say anything about the children working for tips, but I certainly would say something to Wal-Mart, an American store. I think it would be up to us to insist that Wal-Mart pay a living wage, not only here but in foreign countries as well. Now if they still want to use kids after school to pack bags, then they should pay them an hourly wage for doing it.

Incidentally, I was listening to the radio a week ago or so and a Canadian caller said that they had managed to get one of the stores unionized in Canada. It's a start folks.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I must have misinterpreted
Edited on Sun Aug-22-04 03:43 PM by Marianne
you mentioned cliterectomy and I went off on that tangent.

I agree that everyone should earn a living wage for the work they do. We know why they do not, especially with George at the helm coninuing to break down the worker and make him/her into slaves.

Wal Mart seems to be one most often mentioned, however, and I am not defending Wal Mart and I confess to shopping in there occasonally as being a member of the lower economic class living only on SS, I could buy a comfortable pair of shoes for my arthritic feet for twenty bucks instead of spending one hundred bucks and buying New Balance. :shrug: what can I say?

As I travelled around a few weeks ago in northwest Connecticut, a very high rent district and quite lovely pastoral land in my travel van, I noticed in the farming areas, a lot of falling apart homes--and I mean terribly falling apart--front porches rotting and broken in half , roofs rotting and generally a sorry looking state. I was puzzled as to why these slum like houses were interspersed between these lovely homes, many of them with horses grazing on the acre, well manicured front lawns and of course all meticulously landscaped. I thought for a moment that perhaps the zoning laws had something to do with it--naively. When I reached a town and went to buy coffee, I saw a lot of dark skinned people speaking spanish in there buying coffee. My guess is Mexican but I really cannot say. Ah ha--ergo the migrant worker's homes--the slums--the decrepit housing . Then I began to see the workers working around the homes and the farms after that.

Back to Wal Mart--most people who abhor it's practices, boycott Wal Mart--it occured to me that no one is boycotting apples, or corn, or milk or any other crop produced by the farms that treat the migrant workers like that. Also, the miles and miles of strip malls that seduce and bekon to the mesmerized shopper are full of stores that pay probably the same lousy salary as Wal Mart.

It is out of control unless something is done to bring back some bargaining power to the worker-- that is the extent of my suggestions because I get overwhelmed with the sheer power the corporations hold over my life and the lives of others in the country.

I know I am talking long, but I heard about the unionizing of the Wal Mart in Quebec-a favorite place of mine to visit-also to mention that New Balance used to have a factory here in Maine not too long ago and I would travel to the factory outlet to buy a pair of shoes at a good price--they shut down and went overseas.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 06:15 PM
Original message
I too am on a fixed income so I shop at Wal-Mart occasionally
too, but I try to get what I need at Target or K-Mart first. However, Wal-Mart is the only store that carries shoes and pants that fit my husband that we can afford. Wal-Mart is going to have to be made human from the outside, I mean unions are going to be the ones to break the elephant and to do that we need Democrats in power.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 06:15 PM
Original message
Dupe
Edited on Sun Aug-22-04 06:19 PM by Cleita
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Dupe
Edited on Sun Aug-22-04 06:20 PM by Cleita
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
23. What about the barbaric practice
of circumcising males in America? It serves little or no medical purpose, yet there is no outcry. Is a males sexual health and pleasure less important than girls in third world countries?
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Frankly, i don't rembember the cut
It clearly happened without anesthesia, like they say... and i'm sure
the psychic scar is there for my past life regression therapist to
re-discover... but it was decades ago, and my sexual pleasure works
just fine.

What about the barbaric practice of mass murdering people with
bombs and selling weapons to dictatorships for mass murder purposes.

Methinks, if we put down the war mongers, smaller issues will be
put down as well.
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LibraLabSoldier Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. If I had had sons....
I would not have had them cut either. But since I had girls, It never came up.
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