Conversation with Pops this morning...

[skooooo]

My dad told me this morning that the shape this country is in is much worse than what he saw in the 1960s as far as the divisiveness.

Back then, the division was between mainstream culture vs. counterculture. These days the mainstream culture is divided against itself.

He also said that he expects New York to be worse than Chicago of '68. I hope he's wrong, but the fact that it won't just be New York cops controlling the streets, but the Feds indicates that those in charge have nothing to lose. The New York cops care about their neighborhoods. The goons with the sonic weapons won't give a crap about anything.

Pop's is 72, he's seen it all. Hope he's wrong, but I'm not so sure.

[Mz Pip]

1. It's true.

In the 60s the protests were nearly entirely made up of young people.

The anti-war/anti-Bush crowd cuts across all age, ethnic, and income demographics. It makes it much harder to blow off people who are old enough to vote and do.

I hope NYC doesn't get violent but I'm not optimistic. I've heard there are some websites out there with pointers on agitating and violence. If that is true I guess we can expect the worst.


MzPip
:dem:

[Jacobin]

2. In the 60's the government hired agents provacateur

Paid young people to go undercover to rabble rouse, break things and encourage violence. The attempt was to discredit the peace movement.

I'm sure they are planting some agitators now in hopes that the demonstrations get violent and turn off swing voters.

[karlrschneider]

3. They might even use some of the same thugs as in the 00 election

at the Miami recount. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind they'll have hired goons posing as protestors. :grr:

[Mz Pip]

4. I don't know about that

but I do remember a couple of people I knew back then who were more than happy to throw rocks, antagonize police and be as obnoxious as possible. They didn't get paid for it, either.

One guy I knew from college got his head clubbed by the police, had it bandaged by someone and dove right back into the fray. He thought the anarchy was cool. Don't ask me to remember his name. It's been 35 years and I don't have the memory of a Swift Boat Vet.

Point is, there is more than enough blame for that mess to go around. In retrospect, I'm sort of surprised no one got killed.

MzPip
:dem:

[berry]

5. I went to 2 huge demonstrations in NYC before the invasion of Iraq

and there was no violence to speak of--not like Chicago '69. A little trouble when the mounted police scared some people (those horses are BIG) and others around them started yelling. Some shoving maybe or resistance to arrest (which I didn't see, but read about). But people behaved calmly, and peacefully--however angry they were about the war. And I felt completely safe.

I have no inside information, but IF there is a major flare-up of violence, I'd be willing to bet on it being started either by 1) provocateurs (this is not a myth--they did exist in the '60s) or 2) provocative actions by the police (and I think in general they are restrained, but who knows what their orders will be).

There *may* be a few strange people out there with websites advocating violence. But more than ever before, I think, protesters are prepared for, and trained for, peaceful protest. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Once, I was caught in a stampede of terrified peaceful protesters who were being charged by a battalion of special forces using clubs to disperse them. (This was in a foreign country. I happened to be staying in a hotel in that district of the city.) I have NEVER been more terrified. Luckily, someone grabbed me from a doorway and pulled me inside to a coffee shop. I wasn't even near the clubs, but among the fleeing crowds (not all of whom were protesters) there was a palpable fear that I will never forget.

I sincerely hope things stay peaceful!

[A_Possum]

6. Maybe the websites are plants?

Seems possible.

[CaTeacher]

7. I have been in several protests that got

a little bit out of hand. I have never known any "paid provocateurs" though. Actually, around here it is obvious (when you have been protesting for a while) that the same people and same organizations put on the protests time after time--people like "ANSWER". Around here it is like a family--I know that if I go to a protest, I will see all my friends there! (And at the local Gay Pride celebrations too!!!)

These are good people--they are the salt of the earth--and the lifeblood of the Democratic party.

Sometimes things get a little stirred up--but that is because emotions are running high.

As far as I know, it is the usual people who are organizing the upcoming protest at the GOP convention--no one has anything to be ashamed of--and they should not be intimidated into modifying their behavior. They should feel free to use their freedom of speech and expression to the maximum and draw attention to themselves and our causes.

The GOP is just trying to scare people from doing this--don't play into their hands. And there is a movement to purge the left from the party. They want our votes--but they want to disassociate from us. Well--we are not going away--this is our party.

[union_maid]

8. Things are very tense

I think your Pops is right about the divide. Don't know how the convention will play out. I was at a very mild folk think outdoors at Lincoln Center and there was an arrest. I've gone to a million of these things and no one even litters. I went mainly to see Arlo Guthrie but the controversy that lead to the arrest seemed to have begun with the act before him. Someone in the audience was disruptive apparently. At the end of the entire show the person was busted. He might have started up again. I don't know. But I do know that in normal times the cops in NY would not have time to bother arresting someone for that.