Is this why they killed Paul Wellstone?

[Sophree]

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/082304W.shtml

*****SNIP*****

Depleted Uranium: Dirty Bombs, Dirty Missiles, Dirty Bullets
by Leuren Moret
SF Bay View

A death sentence here and abroad
“Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.” - Henry Kissinger, quoted in “Kiss the Boys Goodbye: How the United States Betrayed Its Own POW’s in Vietnam”

Vietnam was a chemical war for oil, permanently contaminating large regions and countries downriver with Agent Orange, and environmentally the most devastating war in world history. But since 1991, the U.S. has staged four nuclear wars using depleted uranium weaponry, which, like Agent Orange, meets the U.S. government definition of Weapons of Mass Destruction. Vast regions in the Middle East and Central Asia have been permanently contaminated with radiation.

And what about our soldiers? Terry Jemison of the Department of Veterans Affairs reported this week to the American Free Press that “Gulf-era veterans” now on medical disability since 1991 number 518,739, with only 7,035 reported wounded in Iraq in that same 14-year period.

This week the American Free Press dropped a “dirty bomb” on the Pentagon by reporting that eight out of 20 men who served in one unit in the 2003 U.S. military offensive in Iraq now have malignancies. That means that 40 percent of the soldiers in that unit have developed malignancies in just 16 months...


How was the truth about DU hidden from military personnel serving in successive DU wars? Before his tragic death, Sen. Paul Wellstone informed Joyce Riley, R.N., B.S.N., executive director of the American Gulf War Veterans Association, that 95 percent of Gulf War veterans had been recycled out of the military by 1995. Any of those continuing in military service were isolated from each other, preventing critical information being transferred to new troops. The “next DU war” had already been planned, and those planning it wanted “no skunk at the garden party.”

********

A genocidal secret worth killing a United States Senator to keep?

[loudsue]

1. More & more I realize how much Paul Wellstone KNEW about

the bush family mafia. I'm not at all surprised he was....um...in an "accident" at a critical time in his Senate campaign. NOR am I surprised that Ted Kennedy was ALMOST on the same plane that day, but decided at the last minute to attend a funeral.

These guys were on to the bush mafia and the military's dirty secrets about what they're doing to our soldiers.

:kick::kick::kick:

[Sophree]

3. I didn't know that.

That Ted Kennedy was supposed to be on that plane. :scared:

Our heros keep dying while we stand aside and look. ENOUGH!

Stand up. Keep fighting!

:kick:

[prolesunited]

5. Do you have a link

about Kennedy being on that plane? First time I've heard that

[dflprincess]

7. Just to keep the facts straight

(Because you know the neocons will look at one minor fact being wrong and use it as "proof" everything said is wrong) It was Wellstone who decided to attend the funeral in northern Minnesota. Kennedy stayed in the Twin Cities area and continued with the appearances they had scheduled. They were to meet up later in Duluth for a scheduled rally. Had they both stuck to the original schedule it is assumed they would have flown to Duluth together. However, I have not heard either Wellstone's or Kennedy's people confirm or deny that story (which doesn't mean one or the other hasn't happened.)

This information about DU is interesting and it certainly would have added to Wellstone being perceived as a threat to Bushco.

[MnFats]

49. small point, but Paul was en route to a funeral.

Kennedy stayed behind in the Twin Cities to campaign...but someone could have assumed Kennedy would naturally accompany Paul to the Iron Range since there's tons of DFL votes up there...

oops.. now i see DFL Princess has already cleared this up....hey, DFL.-MnFats

[Bernardo de La Paz]

2. Your question assumes facts not in evidence. Interesting posting though.

[Sophree]

6. I know.

But I still believe that his death was no accident.

I also believe that our government is covering up the serious health problems/birth defects related to DU exposure. Either they are protecting what they feel is an effective weapon, or they are covering up something much, much worse.

An Iraqi doctor has been jailed for releasing medical information and evidence of DU-related illness:

****SNIP*******

http://www.counterpunch.org/spinoza05082003.html

May 8, 2003


Jailed for Exposing Costs of Sanctions & War?
Dr. Huda Ammash's Detention
by ABU SPINOZA

The US occupation military forces in Iraq recently detained Dr. Huda Sali Mahdi Ammash, a Iraqi scientist. South End Press, the publishers of Dr. Huda Ammash, in a press release has suggested that "there may be political motivation for her detention." Dr. Ammash published a peer-reviewed paper, "Toxic Pollution, the Gulf War, and Sanctions," in an anthology Iraq Under Siege (South End Press, undated edition, 2002), edited by Anthony Arnove. Co-publisher of the anthology, Alexander Dwinell said: "We are outraged at the U.S.'s extra-legal detention of Dr. Ammash and its plans to interrogate her. We demand that Dr. Ammash be released immediately." He added: "The US government is trying to silence Dr. Ammash's outspoken criticism of the US role in causing cancers and other illnesses in Iraq through its own use of biologically hazardous weapons such as radioactive deleted uranium."

In her paper, "Toxic Pollution, the Gulf War, and Sanctions," Dr Ammash examines the effects of United States' use of depleted uranium during the first Persian Gulf War, the spread of electro-magnetic fields in the environment, chemical pollution, and massive destruction of Iraq's infrastructure on public health. Her assessment of the overall effect is that US actions are largely responsible for the deterioration of public health in Iraq. She writes: "Iraqi death rates have increased significantly, with cancer representing a significant cause of morality, especially in the south and among children." This view is shared by other scientists and experts.

According to biographical details that are available from various sources, Professor Ammash was born on 1953 in Baghdad. He obtained her B.Sc., in Biology from University of Baghdad in 1975 and her M.S., in Microbiology from Texas University, Denton, Texas. In 1983 she obtained her Ph.D., in Microbiology from University of Missouri at Columbia, Missouri, USA. She elected a Fellow of Islamic Academy of Science (IAS) in 2001. She has had a distinguished academic and professional career in Iraq. She served as Dean of College of Education for Women, University of Baghdad and as Dean of College of Science (1995-1997). Her publications include, "Impact of Gulf War Pollution in the Spread of Infection Diseases in Iraq" (Soli Al-Mondo, Rome 1999) and "Electronic, Chemical, and Mircobial Pollution Resulting from War and Embargo, and its Impacts on the Environment and Health," (Journal of the Academy of Science, 1997).

The US occupation forces had listed Dr. Ammash among the 55 most-wanted Iraqi officials. Dr. Ammash is the daughter of Saleh Mahdi Ammash, a former vice-president, defense minister and member of the Baath party's leadership. He was reportedly executed on Saddam Hussein order in 1983.

***************

[Sophree]

10. A petition to free Dr. Ammash

http://www.petitiononline.com/freehuda/petition.html

To: UN Secretary General, International Action Center, Islamic Scientific Society, Southend Press, Environmentalist Against War, Peace and Resistance

The American Occupation Forces detained Dr. Huda Ammash on April 25, 2003. During this very time, the American Occupation Forces were claiming that Dr. Huda Ammash had fled to Syria. Their blatant lies were exposed after some international news networks spread reports of her detention which forced the Occupation Forces, on May 5, 2003, to admit that they had her under detention.

Under the pressure of international humanitarian and academic societies, the American Forces in Baghdad claimed that she had been released. This lie was uncovered when news networks went to her home for an interview. The American Occupation Forces were forced to admit that they had lied once again and that Dr. Huda was still under detention.

Dr. Huda Saleh Mahdi Ammash never did research, at any stage, on weapons of any type and none of her research papers were ever put to such a use. All her scientific research is published and she was promoted due to this published research. She attended many international and Arabic scientific conferences with her research.

Scientific and academic societies all over Iraq, the Arab world, and internationally know that the reason behind Dr. Huda Ammash's detention was that she exposed the criminal use of weapons by the Americans during the 1991 war on Iraq up until now. These weapons include Depleted Uranium (DU), biological, chemical and other electro-radioactive weapons. She published a book which proved that the weapons used by the Americans during the 1991 Gulf War were responsible for the rise in cancer rates in the south of Iraq and that is why her detention is simply retaliation for exposing them.

Dr. Huda Saleh Mahdi Ammash is currently detained under inhumane conditions in spite of the fact that she has cancer and was under medical treatment during the time of her detention.

*****

She has cancer. She has risked her life to expose the truth and help the Iraqi people.

[Pallas180]

19. US is the only country in the world that bathes bullets in depleted urani

uranium. It appears not to be an accident but another "societal
engineering" MIHOP wonder.

People of color to the cabal apparently are deemed unfit, and continuing a secret war against their numbers, after the active war is
over is another way to weaken opposition.

Hard to get out there and fight when you have cancer and leukemia.

[Generic Other]

4. This is scary stuff

What is the matter with our country? We have become the evil empire.

[Dems Will Win]

8. Plus Cheney threatened Wellstone after his antiwar vote.

"WE'RE GOING TO GET YOU!"

A little stronger than his comments to Leahy...

[tom_paine]

11. Yep. And those Totalitarian Monsters sure DID get him, didn't they?

Bastards.

[Sophree]

13. Totalitarian Bastards is right.

They will crush anything that gets in the way of their quest for complete and total world domination.

[Sophree]

12. I'm sure they had many reasons.

For killing him.

I didn't know Cheney threatened him that way after his anti-war vote. Do you remember where you read that? I'm interested in the timing.

I don't think that they would kill him just for that- a single vote that didn't effect the outcome of the IWR vote.

[Pastiche423]

21. At a meeting full of war veterans in Willmar, Minn

days before his death, Wellstone told attendees that Cheney told him, "If you vote against the war in Iraq, the Bush administration will do whatever is necessary to get you. There will be severe ramifications for you and the state of Minnesota."

http://www.active-indigos.org/articles/Cheneys_Threat_to_Wellstone.htm

The Bushies despise Wellstone, who unlike most Senate Democrats has been fighting spirited battles against the new administration’s policies on everything from the environment to the tax cuts for the rich to military aid for the "Plan Colombia" drug war boondoggle. Other Democratic senators who face re-election contests in 2002 are, according to polls, more vulnerable than Wellstone. But the Bush camp has been focusing highest-level attention on "Plan Wellstone" — its project to silence progressive opposition.

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0424-07.htm

[Pallas180]

20. Please, do you have a link to Cheney saying that - it will only

do us any good if we can back these claims up with links
to "substantial" respected news reports.

Wild claims, by unrecognized sources, won't be helpful.

Thanks

[dflprincess]

9. Sadly, this isn't anything new

The VA was never honest with the Atomic Vets or the Agent Orange Vets. I imagine there's been things like this covered up in every war.

When my dad had his first heart attack, a guy from the VA showed up at his bedside (he was in a private hospital) to find out what malaria or other medications he may have been given when he was in the Pacific. He told Pop that they were seeing an "unusally high" number of early heart attacks among Pacific war vets that was not being seen in vets who had been in Europe. After my dad had his 2nd (and final) heart attack the person at the VA who was helping my mom with the paperwork repeated this.

DISCLAIMER: There very probably was no correlation. This happened in 1965 when knowledge about the cause of and the treatment of heart disease was still pretty primitive compared today. There may very well have been another explanation for this apparent jump in heart problems. I just find it interesting that it was ever looked at all and use it only as an example that service related health problems among vets are not something the government has never considered before even if they won't admit it.

[Sophree]

14. They probably do cover up stuff like this in every war.

It's highly ironic that we went to war to "stop the spread of WMDs," and the whole time we're spreading toxins and radiation over the entire ME and South Asia.

Sickening.

[Pallas180]

26. We really did not go to war to stop spread of WMD's you know,

because there is proof that our own corporations and elected officials
supplied those black market components -

go read American Judas in Editorials or this


Pallas180 (1000+ posts) Tue Aug-17-04 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #10

12. THEORY OF THE WHY-PLAME>CHENEY>HALLIBURTON >ILLEGAL WMD TRADE



A THEORY ON THE WHY - Plame -> Cheney->Halliburton

On my way home today, as I thought about the why the outing of Valerie Plame was necessary, I was so engrossed I drove 4 exits past my exit.

Here's what we know:

1) Valerie Plame was "active in a sting operation involving the trafficking of Weapons of Mass Destruction components"" when her identity was exposed by the White House. It also said" Only a high-ranking official could have had access to the knowledge" that Valerie Plame was a covert CIA agent.

2) Vice President Cheney since 1995 as CEO of Halliburton was fined 1.2 milion dollars for illegal sales of components to Libya which could be used for nuclear purposes. Shortly before becoming Vice President he bitterly assailed US policy against selling such components to Syrria and Iran, which apparently hurt Halliburton's bottom line.

3) There is an investigation of Vice President Cheney in other countries for illegal bribery and various other offenses connected to Halliburton as well as paying amounts to secret Swiss bank accounts

4)The Atomic Energy Commission has said a North American company is one of 20 being investigated for black market sales of WMD materials.

Here's the theory:

Valerie Plame was stopped in her tracks and the biggest treasonous taboo of revealing a CIA sting operation was done because she/it was coming close to discovering even more serious violations of the laws against trading nuclear materials with certain countries by our own Vice President and the Hallibuton company he has awarded billions of US taxpayer dollars to in non-bid contracts after he became VP.

Recently Libya was accused of having WMD components and the US threat
ened to invade unless Quaddaffi gave the WMD components to the US.
Bush 2 was seen on TV this week inspecting the cases of returned materials from Iraq triumphantly. The fact that Quaddafi received these illegal shipments of components from Cheney/Halliburton was not
mentioned in the victory video.

Dick Cheney, even after the Senate Intel Committee, The Atomic Commission and numerous other agencies have said no WMD exist in Iraq,
insists Iraq has WMD even in the last week.

Why? Because Dick Cheney knows he, through an offshore Halliburton company with a PO Box, at some time in the past sold Saddam Hussein WMD or components of WMD. In the same way "they" under Bush 1 adminstration sold Hussein lethal gas which he used, and then attacked him for using it saying he was a threat to the community.

Why do Cheney and Bush insist they must attack Syrria and Iran as the next step in making the world safe and that Syrria and Iran have
WMD? Cheney-Halliburton know that Syrria and Iran have WMD components because Cheney illegally sold the WMD components to Syrria and Iran.

Why did Bush Cheney know that North Korea had WMD and where did they gget the components?

Why were Pakistan and India able to test and develop nuclear weapons undetected by the CIA's "big eye in the sky" or any agency's seismic
discovery? And where did India and Pakistan purchase the components
for WMD which were illegal for any company to sell them?

What was Valerie Plame investigating?


good spooks vs the bad spooks in the FBI and CIA becomes very confusing to most, I think.



Not to add confusion to my "theory " above, but I also thought:

When Saudi Arabia asked Junior and Company to get out of Saudi Arabia
afer we had built a monstrous and expensive base armed with the newest weaponry - one might call it a home base -why would they do that, when they had wanted US to protect them and their oil fields for years???

The reason given for asking us to vacate was to calm the anti-American element. Hmmm. But if they needed our protection from that very element, WHY would they ask their protector to leave.
BECAUSE they "likely" also received WMD from certain parties.

So now, we can guess, the entire Middle East is armed with illegal components of WMD...supplied by whom?hmmm

And I agree with you ROBERTPAULSEN- it's a great racket. Supply them
with the components, collect payment. Shuttle back and forth between
private employment and government employment, selling WMD for your company's bottom line while a private CEO, earning large bonuses and
deferred "payment" plus increased stock option value, go back into government, create a war on those countries who have the WMD you have sold them, then you have created a situation where your company and the other companies you hold stock in, or which belong to your other associates, can supply the army with munitions, destroy the country you have sold WMD to, and then the very same companies who supplied the munitions for destruction, go in and rebuild the country.


So. Now how many times have you profiteered?
1) illegal selling of WMD
2) earn bonus, increase value of stock options
3) Supply Army Munitions on no bid contracts
4) Rebuild the country on no bid contracts

[Sophree]

29. I know.

I know we didn't go there for the WMDs. I'm just still shocked by how blatant our hypocrisy has become.

[pmbryant]

15. I sure hope this article is a joke!

I hope so, because it is definitely laughable.

For one thing, the writing is incoherent, and full of extremely dubious claims. Take the opening paragraph:

Vietnam was a chemical war for oil, permanently contaminating large regions and countries downriver with Agent Orange, and environmentally the most devastating war in world history. But since 1991, the U.S. has staged four nuclear wars using depleted uranium weaponry, which, like Agent Orange, meets the U.S. government definition of Weapons of Mass Destruction. Vast regions in the Middle East and Central Asia have been permanently contaminated with radiation.

Vietnam a chemical war? For oil? I have heard many rationales for the Vietnam War, but fighting over its oil reserves has never been one of them. In fact, I've never even heard mention that Vietnam has any internationally-significant oil reserves at all.

"Large regions and countries downriver"? It is hard for me to imagine what this means since Vietnam is a coastal country.

"Environmentally the most devastating war in world history"? Again, given the huge devastation wrought all over the planet in World War II, I find this claim extremely hard to take seriously.

"since 1991, the U.S. has staged four nuclear wars ..."? Nuclear wars? This is a pretty radical re-definition of this term. I am unaware of the effects of depleted uranium, but I think I can safely conclude that they are nowhere near as profound as the effects of a thermonuclear blast or two.

"Vast regions in the Middle East and Central Asia have been permanently contaminated with radiation."? Again, a dramatic claim with absolutely no evidence provided to back it up. And even if this sensationalistic claim happened to be true, there is no hint here as to the reason behind it.


Just a couple paragraphs later, we get this:

Since these (2003 Iraq War) soldiers were exposed to vaccines and depleted uranium (DU) only, this is strong evidence for researchers and scientists working on this issue, that DU is the definitive cause of Gulf War Syndrome.

Ok, the faulty logic here is simply breathtaking: (1) These soldiers were not isolated from everything except vaccines and depleted uranium; (2) This is talking about the 2003 Iraq War, not the 1991 Gulf War, yet an unjustified jump from one to the other has been made here.

Later, the author writes:

Just 467 U.S. personnel were wounded in the three-week Persian Gulf War in 1990-1991. Out of 580,400 soldiers who served in Gulf War I, 11,000 are dead, and by 2000 there were 325,000 on permanent medical disability. This astounding number of disabled vets means that a decade later, 56 percent of those soldiers who served now have medical problems.

And of the millions of soldiers who served in the Civil War, every single one of them is dead now!! Seriously, without context, the above numbers mean nothing. How do the number of dead and disabled in that population compare to a similar sample in the general population? That is what we need to know.

Tragically, some women in their 20s and 30s who were sexual partners of exposed soldiers developed endometriosis and were forced to have hysterectomies because of health problems.

Yes, like this is a completely unheard of health-issue amongst the general population. Come on!

In a group of 251 soldiers from a study group in Mississippi who had all had normal babies before the Gulf War, 67 percent of their post-war babies were born with severe birth defects. They were born with missing legs, arms, organs or eyes or had immune system and blood diseases. In some veterans’ families now, the only normal or healthy members of the family are the children born before the war.

Ok. This sounds like a very dramatic result. But how come there is no reference to who did this study or where to find it?

Harvard President and physicist James B. Conant, who developed poison gas in World War I, was brought into the Manhattan Project by the father of presidential candidate John Kerry. Kerry’s father served at a high level in the Manhattan Project and was a CIA agent.

WTF? What does John Kerry or his father have anything to do with this? Is this even true? This is a complete non sequitur, a propos of nothing else in this article.

Medical professionals in hospitals and facilities treating returning soldiers were threatened with $10,000 fines if they talked about the soldiers or their medical problems. They were also threatened with jail.

Well, there is the matter of doctor-patient confidentiality. Anyway, who made these alleged threats? Is this the normal punishment for violating confidentiality? One would never know from reading this article.

The final paragraph:

In June 2003, the World Health Organization announced in a press release that global cancer rates will increase 50 percent by 2020. What else do they know that they aren’t telling us? I know that depleted uranium is a death sentence … for all of us. We will all die in silent ways.

What does the WHO's cancer rate estimate have to do with depleted uranium? Does this author believe DU to be the primary cause of cancer? DU is a death sentence "for all of us"!?! This ridiculous hyperbole is too much to stomach.

I'm sorry. Depleted uranium may well be a serious issue worth spending time on. I have no clue. But if this article is typical of the evidence behind the DU scare, then I am unconvinced. In fact, it strongly suggests that depleted uranium is a complete non-issue.

That is sad, because, as the Agent Orange in Vietnam case showed, the military is quite capable of covering up the long-term health effects of the weapons it uses. So we should be very careful not to destroy our own credibility chasing after non-issues, or by chasing after real via baseless claims and ridiculous hyperbole.

Peter

[WoodrowFan]

16. not an intentional one

but it IS a joke.

[Pallas180]

24. PM BRYANT - although there are some errors there are truths:

The United States is the only country in the world that used
bullets bathed in depleted uranium.

Just as the US government refused to acknowledge the illnesses from
Napalm evidencing in US soldiers exposed to the backlash of it in
Viet Nam, they are now refusing to acknowledge several areas of their
incompetence that are causing severe illnesses in Gulf and Iraq war
veterans.

But first let me assure you, the Viet Nam war WAS fought for oil.

The New York Times announced( a few months after Nixon had declared
"Victory" ) on page 85 of the issue in a 1/4 inch paragraph:paraphrasing "The offshore drilling rights (Vietnam) have been awarded to Exxon" (although I can't remember if it was called Esso at that time in the article).

I read it. And I'm sure you could find the confirmation of that article somewhere on google if you were so inclined.

As to the Depleted Uranium causing cancer and leukemia...in the populations where we have fought: Gulf in Iraq, and the current war,
there is an increase in leukemia and various other cancers especially
among the young in Iraq. Our soldiers who fought in the Gulf have
increased cancers and leukemias and children with birth defects who were conceived after their return home. Our soldiers who fought in the
Gulf and current war have mysterious symptoms and illnesses which of course the US Army has determined is all mental and in their minds only. NOT.

Don;t you wonder why the chimp passed a law that no one in the Army can sue the pharmaceutical companies who produced the vaccines? hmmmm?

Finally, if you go over and read the thread on "Eugenics and the Oil
Barons on Gen Discuss, you might come to the conclusion that the people in control of this government during both Gulf wars are people
who do not consider peoples of color on their level.

What better way to continue to subdue the people of a country after
the actual war is over than leave them the gift of birth defects and
illness.

It's difficult to continue fighting when you are weakened by leukemia or cancer.

Read the Eugenics thread thoroughly, and then come back and tell me
the United States government is not purposely infecting those people in with depleted uranium poisoning.

Thank you.

[pmbryant]

28. Gulf War illness real. Doesn't mean depleted uranium caused it.

I have never disputed the existence of real illnesses in Gulf War veterans; however, the previously linked article contains absolutely no significant evidence demonstrating a connection between these illnesses and depleted uranium.

Don;t you wonder why the chimp passed a law that no one in the Army can sue the pharmaceutical companies who produced the vaccines? hmmmm?

So is it the vaccines or the depleted uranium now?

As to the "eugenics" argument you bring up, separately from the topic of the original post here, I am not at all familiar with it, but it strikes me as completely implausible. The population of military veterans has never been big on political agitation in this country. Quite the opposite, generally. So if the U.S. Gov't were secretly poisoning people to keep them from becoming political opponents, that group seems a very unlikely target. Not to mention that to believe this is happening you have to believe in a huge, hideously diabolical conspiracy engaged in by thousands and thousands of American individuals, with none of them coming forward with any kind of smoking gun, even anonymously.

Completely implausible.

Gulf War illness is a serious issue, no doubt. Following incoherent logic and implausible theories with minimal-to-no evidence will not help anyone solve it, unfortunately.

Peter

[Sophree]

31. It's not the soldiers they are targeting.

It's arabs they are targeting for genocide. The soldiers are pawns who happen to get in the way. You can't fight a war without cannon fodder.

[pmbryant]

32. Still completely implausible

Again, to believe this, we have to belive in a huge, hideously diabolical conspiracy engaged in by thousands and thousands of American individuals, with none of them coming forward with any kind of smoking gun, even anonymously.

To get anyone to believe something this subtle and despicable is going on, you're going to need people with a much stronger grasp of facts and coherent argument than the author of the piece linked to in the original post here.

Peter

[Pallas180]

35. the author is on the right track, however was not able

to present it accurately enough for you.

However, you could have gotten the meaning if you chose to I think.

Gulf war syndrom included blemishes and growths, tumors.....

unexplained tumors....

Rather than parsing each word, perhaps you could try to get the gist
of the meaning.

Then again, you might not be able to.

[Pallas180]

33. PETER you should not voice an opinion on the implausability

until you have studied the subject.

I suggested you read "Eugenics and the Oil Barons" but you apparently
would rather decide off the top of your head, than read any facts.

Do the reading.

Do the research.

Then you will have an opinion that can be considered.

But not, "thousands of people wouldn't be in a conspiracy"

When people are a cog in the wheel, they do what they are told, and
dont know they are performing part of a larger plan, which they might
not do, if they knew where it would lead.

One of my first jobs was to import Trichoroethylene and Methylchloride.

Carcinogens.

Do you think if I had known what they were and that the companies they
were sold to were going to dump it into the ground at the Ford plants
and cause cancers, ususally kidney and liver cancers, that I would
have taken a job involved in the spreading of cancer??????

THINK. Think. Try to see the whole picture, not just a part.

Thousands aren't involved in a conspiracy. Thousands are doing the
bidding of a few who have a plan.

To be a conspiracy it has to be a secret.

Our foreign policy is not a secret.

It is and has been criminal for half a century if not more.

[pmbryant]

38. I don't see the connection here

Ok, I looked over that "eugenics" thread briefly and see a lot of stuff about Nazis and other turn-of-the-20th-century people. But that is nothing surprising.

Anyway, this is off-topic. I do not have time to spend studying this separate "eugenics" issue in detail right now, unfortunately. My purpose in this thread was to expose the incoherence, faulty logic, and ridiculous hyperbole of the article by Leuren Moret linked to in the original post.

I remain open to being convinced that depleted uranium is dangerous, but someone will have to present coherent, documented evidence. Articles like that by Leuren Moret only do disservice to your argument.

--Peter

[Pallas180]

40. Too bad you dont have time to read and educate yourself. I dont

think anyone else can do it for you.

You haven't convinced me at all.

You show no information or links to support your argument.

[pmbryant]

42. ??

I don't need links to demonstrate faulty logic, etc.

Peter

[Pallas180]

36. The Gulf and Iraq war veterans are suffering from

both depleted uranium causing various forms of cancer, thyroid, leukemia, etc

and

untested, known to cause illness, vaccines and malaria medicines
causing severe neurological disease.

but I think you know that.

[Gwerlain]

53. C'mon, you really need to have your facts together

for a thing like this and you don't. Let's start with the first sentence, which pmbryant wasn't aware was a distortion:

The United States is the only country in the world that used
bullets bathed in depleted uranium.

"Bathed" in DU? Dude, they're made of DU! Why, you ask? Because it is more dense than lead as well as harder, and that lets them make smaller projectiles for a given weight so they have less air resistance, and thus hit the target harder for the same charge of propellant! In fact, these projectiles are massive enough that they don't even require an explosive charge- they destroy tanks because of their momentum alone. That's because they are made of uranium, which has nearly twice (19.05 kg/m^3 vs. 11.34 kg/m^3) the density of lead. Much more importantly, uranium has a Young modulus of elasticity of 208 compared to lead's 16, and a hardness of 6.5 compared to lead's 1.5. You can't make lead projectiles that will do this- they will deform, and be too large, and slow down too much in the atmosphere, and not stay rigid while they penetrate. But with Uranium, no problem- it's heavier, harder, and more elastic.

Besides, DU is the residue from the separation of U-235 and U-238, the first of which will fission in a nuclear weapon or nuclear reactor, and the second of which will not. The DU has an abnormally low amount of U-235, it is therefore "depleted" of U-235. Since it will not fission, it is not very valuable, and since it is far more dense than lead it is far more useful as a projectile for a high-velocity cannon. It's still a lot more expensive than lead- but it's cheap if you have a lot.

In this case, when we talk about projectiles, we are talking specifically about 30mm projectiles fired by the seven-barrelled GAU-30 cannon on an A-10 tank destroyer aircraft. Which, as far as I know, is the only weapon that uses these projectiles. The Russians called the plane "the devil's cross" because of their aspect from the ground, and because they were known to be such effective weapons against tanks, and the Russians waiting behind the Fulda Gap were tankers. It's basically an airframe built for carrying around this massive cannon with incredible recoil, and as a result of that and of the two large turbofans it has to carry so that it can generate enough thrust not to be knocked out of the air when it fires, it's so ugly the pilots call it the "Warthog." You can't mount a thing like that on a small chopper- it would be knocked out of the air! And when I say "small," I don't think an Apache could handle it. A big Sikorsky of one type or another might be able to- but I'd be pretty leery of being the test pilot! Think about it, man.

Meanwhile, we also have "EU;" Enriched Uranium, which means its U-235 content has been considerably increased beyond the natural 7% or so, enough so that it will fission. Yes, yes, I know, you can put U-238 in a "breeder" reactor and make Pu-239. Guess what? We have a submarine fleet, and some nuclear aircraft carriers, too. How much DU do you think we make to get the "enriched" uranium we use on those? So how much Plutonium do we need, anyway? Not that much, by a long shot! So what the hell can we do with all this DU? It's radioactive, man. We gotta get rid of it. Hey, I got a great idea- we could make a "tank destroyer" aircraft that would shoot it at enemy tanks! And there you have it.

Last but not least, although uranium is indeed radioactive, it's not the kind of high-level source of high-energy neutrons and gamma rays and alpha particles and beta particles that something like, say, radium is. Or even like plutonium; Pu-239 has a half-life of about 25,000 years, whereas uranium's half-life is like 4 billion years. It's not making a lot of radiation, compared to plenty of much more active radioisotopes. Iodine-131, for instance, which is used when treatment of various thyroid disorders is needed and part or all of the thyroid must be rendered inactive, has a half-life of 8 days. This implies an extremely high activity level, and in fact this high activity level makes radioiodine an incredibly dangerous substance. Much more dangerous than depleted uranium.

Now stop telling stories about the boogeyman, and start talking about the real facts of the situation.

What weapons besides the GAU-30 use these projectiles? Are my facts wrong, is there more than just this one weapon? How many such weapons were deployed in GWI and GWII? How many targets can they be estimated to have been used on? Why and under what circumstances would such a projectile be more effective against non-armored targets than anti-personnel weapons such as cluster bombs or more conventional lead bullet or explosive projectile weapons such as 20mm rotary Vulcan cannon or .50 caliber machine guns? Remember, these cannon cannot shoot more than a certain number of rounds, or they will knock the plane out of the air! And these rounds do not fragment- they penetrate, so as an anti-personnel weapon a GAU-30 is going to be far less effective than either the .50 caliber or the 20mm Vulcan minigun.

How dangerous is this uranium? How much does it increase the background count, in REM per year? (Yes, we do all take background radiation- see this.) How much was already present? Were you aware that there are areas of Iran and India that were known as long as fifty years ago to be high background radiation areas, due to their radon content? Were you aware that some of these areas have radiation levels two to three times higher than the maximum recommended dosage for nuclear plant workers?

Talk to me.

[Sophree]

30. Something you're missing

"Just a couple paragraphs later, we get this:


Since these (2003 Iraq War) soldiers were exposed to vaccines and depleted uranium (DU) only, this is strong evidence for researchers and scientists working on this issue, that DU is the definitive cause of Gulf War Syndrome.



Ok, the faulty logic here is simply breathtaking: (1) These soldiers were not isolated from everything except vaccines and depleted uranium; (2) This is talking about the 2003 Iraq War, not the 1991 Gulf War, yet an unjustified jump from one to the other has been made here."


The meaning here is that the soldiers in Iraq War II were not exposed to any chemical or biological weapons and are still experiencing the same symptoms the soldiers from Iraq War I.

[pmbryant]

34. That doesn't change the faulty logic

The 2003 Iraq War "victims" are a small number of people (8?) who came down with cancer. It is my understanding that Gulf War illness is nothing so dramatic as cancer, and affected a lot more than just 8 people. Is that really the "same symptoms"?

(Anyway, it was my understanding that Iraq didn't use any chemical/biological weapons in Gulf War I either.)

And soldiers are exposed to a hell of a lot more in their work than just vaccines and depleted uranium, so narrowing down the possible causes to those two things is unjustified without a lot more evidence.

Peter

[Pallas180]

37. Peter,

apparently for the sake of argument you are asking other posters
to do the work for you. "Prove it to me"

Why dont you google the information on Gulf War Syndrome

Iraq War Illness

and come back and tell us what you find.

[geek tragedy]

17. Vietnam a war for oil?

Stopped reading there. People could at least get their decades right when flinging cliches.

[Pallas180]

25. Sorry. She's quite right. It was for offshore oil. Do you think

peasants in a field are interested in politics or trying to eke out
a bowl of rice for their patty for a days food?

google Esso + Vietnam offshore drilling:

1974
Incorporation of PETRONAS. Parliament passed the Petroleum Development Act.

1975
First export of crude by PETRONAS.

1976
Conclusion of first production sharing contract (PSC) with Esso and Shell.


more from another site:








VIETNAM

Country Profile

Petroleum Geology & Potential
Exploration/Development History

Production Summary


Present Status
Offered Acreage
Contract Terms
Bidding Procedure
Other Information
Contact Us
Exploration activities for petroleum started in the early 1960s in the Song Hong Delta, northern Vietnam, with assistance from the former Soviet Union. By late 1970's, almost 40 wells had been drilled in the region, however, only one small gas field has to be commercially developed. At the same period, exploration was also conducted in the southern continental shelf through concession agreements signed with international oil companies including Mobil, Esso, Pecten, Marathon, and Texas Union. Regional seismic surveys were performed over prospective areas and exploratory wells were drilled with positive results, of which the most important was the discovery of commercial oil by Mobil in the Bach Ho (White Tiger) prospect, in the Cuu Long Basin. This confirmed the obvious petroleum potential in the continental shelf of Vietnam.

( Anybody here believe in the Gulf of Tonkin incident? - even LBJ
doubted it.)

This country should have been named the United States of Oil...if we're anywhere in the world, you know there is either gold, oil, diamonds, uranium, plutonium....and the natives will die.

[geek tragedy]

41. No, it's nonsense.

Heard of the Cold War?

[Pallas180]

43. hard to see or hear ,

if you keep blinders and earplugs on.

[geek tragedy]

44. Uh huh.

I'm looking, and all I see is speculation. No evidence.

[Pallas180]

50. What, you don't believe the New York Times. ?

.

[Pallas180]

18. Do you please have a link to the Kissinger quote ? thanks

.

[indigobusiness]

23. For "Kiss the boys..." or more info re" article

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0525249346/ref=ase_oliverwillisl-20/102-5192767-0672937?v=glance&s=books

To learn more

Sources used in this story that readers are encouraged to consult:

American Free Press four-part series on DU by Christopher Bollyn. Part I: “Depleted Uranium: U.S. Commits War Crime Against Iraq, Humanity,” www.americanfreepress.net/depleted_uranium.html; Part II: “Cancer Epidemic Caused by U.S. WMD: MD Says Depleted Uranium Definitively Linked,” www.americanfreepress.net/html/cancer_epidemic_.html

August 2004 World Affairs Journal. Leuren Moret: “Depleted Uranium: The Trojan Horse of Nuclear War,” www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2004/DU-Trojan-Horse1jul04.htm

August 2004 Coastal Post Online. Carol Sterrit: “Marin Depleted Uranium Resolution Heats Up – GI’s Will Come Home To A Slow Death,” www.coastalpost.com/04/08/01

World Depleted Uranium Weapons Conference, Hamburg, Germany, October 16-19, 2004: www.worlduraniumweaponsconference.de/speakers/speakers.htm

International Criminal Tribunal for Afghanistan. Written opinion of Judge Niloufer Baghwat: www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Afghanistan-Criminal-Tribunal10mar04.htm

“Discounted Casualties: The Human Cost of Nuclear War” by Akira Tashiro, foreword by Leuren Moret, www.chugoku-np.co.jp/abom/uran/index_e.html

Leuren Moret is a geoscientist who has worked around the world on radiation issues, educating citizens, the media, members of parliaments and Congress and other officials. She became a whistleblower in 1991 at the Livermore Nuclear Weapons Lab after experiencing major science fraud on the Yucca Mountain Project. An environmental commissioner in the City of Berkeley, she can be reached at [e-mail].

[Pallas180]

27. INDIGO the link for the Kissinger quote , please

Ihaven't found it on your mentioned links..

and I think it's quite important

since what is happening in the world today has his footprints all over
it.

[indigobusiness]

45. It's referenced here as from "Kiss the Boys",but I don't have the biblio.

you'll have to do the legwork.

on edit---I looked around and couldn't find anything else.

[Gwerlain]

54. I investigated your links...

and found plenty of substance.

There is still room for wiggling in many of the links- but Doug Rokke is most convincing. I tell stories about stuff I've seen and stuff has happened to me, and they come out a lot like this does (though mine aren't about such horrific events). Like I say, convincing.

Serious food for thought. I'll look into it some more.

[PATRICK]

22. I don't think any open secret worried them

or stopped them or caused them to make long assassination lists of all the people holding damning data. Otherwise they would have massacred half the Senate, killed all the BBV crusaders, wiped out the last few anti-Bush pundits and reporters, shut down the Internet, etc. They get what they want despite all the knowledge out there already. Why waste bullets? Their idea is to forge ahead so far and fast no one can stop them. Cheney's latter days haste written large over all.

[Sven77]

39. also to be on plane

Warren Beatty was to be on the plane. The government has a history of going after anti-war figures. Coincidence or assasinations ? Look at all the great black leaders who were shot down in their prime. Wellstone was the only politician I believed in. I contributed to his campaign and hopefully someone can fill his shoes. maybe obama.

[Pallas180]

46. Another poster from the Eugenics thread:couldn't say it better

BeHereNow (1000+ posts) Mon Aug-23-04 03:40 PM
Response to Original message

42. This is why I get so ANGRY

"That's why I get so mad
at people using the term "conspiracy theories..."
It's only a conspiracy if it is a secret, and what these
fascists have been up to for years is DOCUMENTED.
There is no conspiracy- there is a very real PLAN.

The latest and perhaps most terrifying step is
the mandatory mental health screening.
Couple that with the PNAC referrence to
"genetic-specific" biochem weapons and
well, hell if people don't understand the
connection between the Pharma cartel and
the MIC, then I guess they are going to walk
willingly into the modern day gas chambers."


BHN

[riverwalker]

47. but they didn't bleed enough for Bob Dole

according to his criteria, anything less than massive hemmoraging does not count as a war injury. Lymphomas, leukemias, birth defects, cancers, tumors and suicides, are not war injuries according to Dole.

[Pallas180]

48. Bush, Machiavelli,StraussIF NO EXTERNAL THREAT EXISTS ONE MUST BE INVENTED

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5646.htm
-SNIP-
"Strauss’s teaching incorporated much of Machiavelli’s. Significantly, his philosophy is unfriendly to democracy—even antagonistic. At the same time Strauss upheld the necessity for a national religion not because he favored religious practices, but because religion in his view is necessary in order to control the population. Since neo-conservatives influenced by Strauss are in control of the Bush administration, I have prepared a brief list that shows the radical unchristian basis of neo-conservatism. I am indebted to Shadia Drury’s book (Leo Strauss and the American Right) and published interviews for the following:

First: Strauss believed that a leader had to perpetually deceive the citizens he ruled.

Secondly: Those who lead must understand there is no morality, there is only the right of the superior to rule the inferior.

Thirdly: According to Drury, Religion “is the glue that holds society together.”<40> It is a handle by which the ruler can manipulate the masses. Any religion will do. Strauss is indifferent to them all.

Fourthly: “Secular society…is the worst possible thing,” because it leads to individualism, liberalism, and relativism, all of which encourage dissent and rebellion. As Drury sums it up: “You want a crowd that you can manipulate like putty.”<41>

Fifthly: “Strauss thinks that a political order can be stable only if it is united by an external threat; and following Machiavelli, he maintains that if no external threat exists, then one has to be manufactured.”<42>

Sixthly: “In Strauss’s view, the trouble with liberal society is that it dispenses with noble lies and pious frauds. It tries to found society on secular rational foundations.
-SNIP-
a long read but if you want to know what the neo-cons are doing, here it is.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5646.htm

[nolabels]

51. Thanks for the post, In a nutshell (or just a couple paragraphs)

from the link
(snip
A Machiavellian Religion Was Born

American Christianity had already seen extremes. For Dominionists, perhaps the single most important event in the last half of the twentieth century occurred when the Reverend Jim Jones proved that the religious would follow their leader to Guyana and even further, to their deaths. That fact could hardly have escaped the notice of even the dullest of politically minded preachers.

Indeed, Jim Jones’ surreal power over his congregants leaps out from the grave even today. If a man desired to change the laws in America—to undo Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s New Deal for instance, and allow corporations the unbridled freedom they enjoyed prior to the Great Depression (which included the freedom to defraud, pillage, and to destroy the land with impunity on the way to gathering great fortunes), what better way to proceed than to cloak the corruption within a religion? If a few men wanted to establish an American empire and control the entire world, what better vehicle to carry them to their goal than to place their agenda within the context of a religion? Jim Jones proved religious people would support even immoral political deeds if their leaders found a way to frame those deeds as “God’s Will.” The idea was brilliant. Its framers knew they could glorify greed, hate, nationalism and even a Christian empire with ease.<21>



The religion the canny thinkers founded follows the reverse of communism and secular humanism, it poured political and economic ideology into a religion and that combustible mixture produced “Dominionism,” a new political faith that had the additional advantage of insulating the cult from attacks on its political agenda by giving its practitioners the covering to simply cry out, “You’re attacking me for my religious beliefs and that’s religious persecution!”<22>
(snip)

This is why the separation of church and state is so important I would say. A person Learns so many things here at DU that it's hard to remember them all. Thanks again Pallas180


http://www.au.org/site/PageServer

[Pallas180]

52. Thank you NOlabels

for having the intellectual curiosity to read. :)