Max Boot claims FDR as a neoconservative.

[Classical_Liberal]

Pretty much all conservatives today agree on the need for a strong, vigorous foreign policy. There is no constituency for isolationism on the right, outside the Buchananite fever swamps. The question is how to define our interventionism.

One group of conservatives believes that we should use armed force only to defend our vital national interests, narrowly defined. They believe that we should remove, or at least disarm, Saddam Hussein, but not occupy Iraq for any substantial period afterward. The idea of bringing democracy to the Middle East they denounce as a mad, hubristic dream likely to backfire with tragic consequences. This view, which goes under the somewhat self-congratulatory moniker of "realism," is championed by foreign-policy mandarins like Henry Kissinger, Brent Scowcroft and James Baker III.

Many conservatives think, however, that "realism" presents far too crabbed a view of American power and responsibility. They suggest that we need to promote our values, for the simple reason that liberal democracies rarely fight one another, sponsor terrorism, or use weapons of mass destruction. If we are to avoid another 9/11, they argue, we need to liberalize the Middle East--a massive undertaking, to be sure, but better than the unspeakable alternative. And if this requires occupying Iraq for an extended period, so be it; we did it with Germany, Japan and Italy, and we can do it again.

The most prominent champions of this view inside the administration are Vice President Dick Cheney and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz. Their agenda is known as "neoconservatism," though a more accurate term might be "hard Wilsonianism." Advocates of this view embrace Woodrow Wilson's championing of American ideals but reject his reliance on international organizations and treaties to accomplish our objectives. ("Soft Wilsonians," a k a liberals, place their reliance, in Charles Krauthammer's trenchant phrase, on paper, not power.) Like Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan, "hard Wilsonians" want to use American might to promote American ideals.....

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110002840

[Terran]

1. Bullshit

If that were true, FDR would have gone to war with Germany in 1939. Not to mention a very unconservative government program called the New Deal...

[Classical_Liberal]

5. What about the UN, not exactly a pet neocon cause.

.

[AP]

7. Exactly. FDR wanted a UN so that fascists at home could no longer use

overseas threats to justify programs at home which transferred wealth to the top of society.

He wanted peace arround the world so that America could get down to the business of creating a wealthy, thriving middle class that stregthened democracy.

[Terran]

11. Exactly

I understand they like to claim JFK also, which is almost as lame.

[rudeboy666]

12. well

JFK was an anti-communist liberal.

[Classical_Liberal]

25. He also tangled with them using Adlei Stevenson at the UN

not a very neocon thing.

[tom_paine]

2. Jesus Christ, these people are insane

Yeah, FDR was a neocon...and Hitler was a Communist!

[MisterP]

6. they actually do say that, and anyone who disagrees with their brainwashin

is brainwashed!
This is why I loathe the DLC: they just nod their heads sagely at their PNACer hegemonists, and act SO sad when "ugly shouters" protest their limos or manors or offices as their plot out the next neoimperialist or neocolonial invasion-pork project-nation reducing plan. Fie and bah to neocons, no matter what their party!

[hughee99]

19. Hitler was an anti-communists, however

If you look at life in Germany under Hitler and life in the Soviet Union union under Stalin, there are many parallels (and also some differences I will agree), but Fascism and Stalinism weren't really that far apart, it just depends on what kind of communism (Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism...) you're talking about.

[tom_paine]

21. You are speaking of the Extreme ends of Left and Righ merging

under the bannerof authoritarianism.

You are correct, in that a person oppressed under the Entreme Left of Stalin and a person oppressed under the Extreme Right of Hitler/Mussolini would not have found much difference in their day-to-day circumstance.

Speak ill of The Party: Be jailed

etc etc etc

But I guess you could say there are only so many ways to oppress and bludgeon a people into submission, no matter your rationale.

The Busheviks and Comrade Putin themselves are pioneering a new methodology more in keeping with Modern Times, when Nazi/Soviet level oppression has been largely discredited.

Putin calls it "managed Democracy". The Busheviks, still having to spin the illusion of Amerika being free, cannot be so bold as to give their program a name because they aren't supposed to be doing it (but of course they ARE).

As far as the strains of Communism, I would argue that like all extreme positions, it is an impossibility because no matter the happy intentions of the Communists, somehow it keeps turning out to be more like Stalinism inthe end, which suggests that the final evolution of Communism is Khmer Rouge-ism/Stalinism.

But that is for another thread...

[hughee99]

24. Exactly

And this being the case, it is actually EASIER to make the comparison between Hitler and Stalin (at least his form of communism) than it is to make a comparison between FDR and the Neocons.

[kyattaman]

3. Maxboot Claims FDR

Typical Republican crap to claim a dead Democrat who's unavailable to defend himself!

[newyawker99]

28. Hi kyattaman!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Vickers]

4. Remember that time FDR landed on an aircraft carrier in a flight suit?

Man, that kicked ASS.

[69KV]

32. Yep, and

Remember when FDR went on the radio right after Pearl Harbor to read "My Pet Goat" to the American public?

:evilgrin:

[Cleita]

8. Max Jackboots is part of the PNAC and we

know what they are.

[Fovea]

9. 'hard Wilsonianism?'

No it isn't. It is more like 21st Century Blackshirts.
It has so little to do with Woodrow Wilson that it is not funny.

And Franklin Roosevelt? If I weren't already sick, I would laugh myself sick.

[K-W]

10. History lessons from those who know little about history.

Wonderfu.

[CarolynEC]

13. Now, I'm not an expert in these matters, but...

... how the fuck does one "export ideals" at the point of a gun?

These people are such relics. They're clinging to this gunboat-in-every-port idea that was already outdated in the 19th century.

Ever heard of blue jeans and McDonald's, folks? Rock-n-roll and baseball? Cultural values are transmitted when societies interact, and the surest path to interaction is economic integration.

Countries whose economies are linked inextricably to ours cannot threaten us without threatening themselves. Want to make America more secure? Seed the world with prosperity and opportunity.

[Classical_Liberal]

26. I am not of this mind either. Why is it important to spread blue jeans

and McDonalds? Now food and basic necessities are a different matter, but I honestly don't feel threatened by people who don't eat at McDonalds, where blue jeans or shop at Walmart. The first and latter habits I have personally rejected myself for a variety of reasons. McDonalds turns you into a porker, and Walmart eleminates the overtime pay that your mother needed to put you through college. This need to make them economically and culturally dependent also generates hostility.

[CarolynEC]

27. ???

I not at all sure what to make of your post.

Regarding blue jeans and McDonald's -- they're just colorful metaphors. Useful icons, for better or worse. Cultural shorthand.

As for economic empowerment "generating hostility"... you've completely lost me there.

I suspect we're speaking different languages.

[rudeboy666]

14. in a sense

I think the point that might be missed is the suggestion that there are parallels as far as foreign policy is concerned.

The actual goals and methods might differ.

However, the notion of using American power in order to 'spread democracy' or 'maintain global peace' appear similar(in general).

Of course, FDR was no neo-conservative. But I could see how a lot of neo-conservatives might find affinity with the likes of Wilson and Truman(especially Truman!).

[A_Possum]

15. "Promoting our values..."

One of the really stupidest ways imaginable to "promote your values" is to beat somebody else up until they agree with you.

Works all the time.

Yeah.

[Liberal Veteran]

16. Which explains why neocons hate FDR like poison...

...and call him a socialist and try to undo everything he ever did?

[rudeboy666]

18. it's actually the isolationist Old Right

who hated FDR and called him a socialist.

In fact, many of its descendants equally hate the neo-conservatives!

Bigger government(socialism), War on Terror(intervensionism), etc....you know the story.

[K-W]

30. no, both of them hate FDR

And yes, neoconservatives are hated by isolationists, but so are liberals.

And both neocons and isolationists call liberals socialists.

[My Pet Goat]

17. How dare they...

FDR towered over all these men. FDR kicked ass but he also knew how to persaude and lead. The foreign policy of Cheney has nothing to do with FDR, if it did we probably would have invaded Russia after Pearl Harbor.

:grr:

P.S. if anyone visits D.C. be sure to check out the extensive FDR memorial near the tidal basin. It is easy to miss but once you are there, you'll find it a very moving experience.

[Gwerlain]

23. Yes, the FDR memorial

is a moving sight. I saw the Jefferson, FDR, and Lincoln memorials when I was there, among many other memorable places- such as Albert Einstein's memorial and Jack and Bobby's final resting places at Arlington. Everyone should go there once and see these places.

[CBHagman]

20. They only like Democrats who are conveniently dead.

Do you think any of these worthless souls would have supported FDR, Harry Truman or JFK when they were alive? Not bloody likely. It's only years after the fact that the GOP and neocons try to co-opt the legacies of these figures.

Then again, I guess this gives Clinton something to look forward to. Maybe 50 years from now the Max Boot of tomorrow will be lauding the Big Dog. :-)

[tom_paine]

22. Yep. Even if they have to kill them themselves

JFK, RFK, MLK

[CaTeacher]

29. I hate it when people

try to rewrite history--and I especially hate anyone who criticizes the GREAT FDR!

[CanIgonow]

31. I say that the Dalai Lama was a general in the People's Liberation Army.