BBV Question: Votronic Machines

[HFishbine]

Hi BBVers, what do we know about the "Votronic" touch-screen machines?

[HFishbine]

1. Kick -- Anybody? (eom)

[Boredtodeath]

2. Votronic = ES&S

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[HFishbine]

3. Thanks, but

I don't know what that means. Do Votronics have the same known problems as Diebold?

[Boredtodeath]

4. Not sure

I don't know anything about ES&S machines. However, since anomolies have been reported with every manufacturer, I think it's a safe assumption that they all have the same issues.

Simplicity says that any computer counting votes have the same problem unless there is a robust audit procedure which runs a parallel paper system to confirm the electronic results.

Think in terms of going back to computerized accounting when PCs became popular in business. All companies ran a parallel set of paper books with the computerized books to ensure the computerized version was auditable.

We should all be encouraging elections officials to use the parallel paper system EMPACS as suggested by http://www.ballotintegrity.org

[BevHarris]

5. ES&S has pretty big problems:

1. A history of lost votes and miscounted elections. Famous for saying things like "the votes weren't lost, just uncounted" (in reference to 41,000 votes that vanished in Dallas, and 103,000 votes that went missing in Miami.)

2. Bizarre problems with auditability -- of course, these machines have no paper ballot and can't be properly audited anyway. But even the lame excuse for an audit, where they say they can compare the innards of the touch screen with the printout -- doesn't work. A program "glitch" was found to scramble the machine ID numbers. This is akin to having, say, 4,000 invoices which you want to match up with the corresponding check -- and your accounting program scrambles the invoice numbers. Not good.

3. Problems, like Diebold, with serious conflict of interest in ownership. Notably Senator Chuck Hagel, and his campaign finance manager, who between the two of them own a large chunk; ES&S directors think nothing of running for office; recently one of the Nebraska Board of Regents was elected on ES&S machines (he was a director of ES&S).

4. ES&S was founded by Bob Urosevich, who has been president of Diebold Election Systems for many years now. Bob's brother, Todd, is an executive with ES&S.

5. It is these machines that recently "lost" the entire database so that citizens of Miami-Dade, who requested info on the McBride / Janet Reno race of 2002, learned that supposedly 2 successive crashes erased all the data. (A CD was later produced that had some, but not all, of the information; however, this shows yet another weakness in these systems, if all it takes is a crash to destroy evidence.)

6. The password for Diebold machines was, for nearly a decade, "1111" - The password for ES&S machines is equally simpleheaded. It's "ESS"

7. ES&S had two techs quit recently citing ethical problems with the company.

8. ES&S, like Diebold, was found to be using uncertified software. One county in Indiana has now refused to use its touch screens because of that.

9. ES&S also deploys lots of temps at election time, but they appear to be pulling them from the nearby Offutt Air Force Base instead of Monster.com.

[HFishbine]

6. Thanks Bev!

Votronic is what we use here. I found some unusual, although not necessarily unexplainable, descrepencies in the precint reports, like a few more total votes for all candidates in one race than the total number of ballots cast.

I may be writing an article about it for a local indy. I might drop you a line if we proceed.