A word about sensitivity regarding jews and Israel.

[a_random_joel]

It appears as if some heavy duty stuff is about to hit regarding this Israeli business.

I want to stress, for the record, how much I would appreciate it if people would try and be sensitive to those of us of Jewish descent.

Am I saying one cannot criticize Israel without criticizing Jews? No.

Am I calling anyone Anti-Semitic? No.

But please keep in mind that it is hard as a person of Jewish ethnicity to not have a sense of pride and loyalty when the issue of Israel comes up. That is just par for the course.

I say this as a completely SECULAR, indeed Agnostic Jew. For those who may be unaware, my bloodline marks me as a Jew, even if my belief does not. In other words - people who hate Jews - or worse, those who want to kill them, do not care what I believe. They only care that I have a Jewish mother.

Some would argue that it is UnAmerican to have a sense of loyalty towards Israel if one is American. And yet I watch Brazilian American friends cheer the Brazilian soccer team, and wish well for Brazil. Same with my Mexican friends... and my British friends, etc.

Clearly, the Sharon government is reprehensible, and I am not happy nor proud of the situation regarding the Palestinians (although I believe both sides share blame). I am also not proud to hear of this spy situation, and I hope proper and full justice is measured. And if it leads to damage done to the Bush cabal - that would be a cherry on top.

But I would hope that some here could understand how this is a tender and hurtful situation to some of us, and not make the situation worse by negligent, abusive or irresponsible language.

There are a great deal of Jews who love this country, even while simultaneously loving the "concept" of Israel (as a Jewish homeland), and this is not an easy situation for us.

I am sure to be flamed for this. And some may think that I might be over sensitive. Which is fine. I am not going to rebut anyone here. Nor am I intending to cause a disruption here whatsoever. So do with this thread what you may... I just wanted to speak out in a civil manner, because I have seen similar situations get real ugly, real fast...

Shalom. Salaam Aley-kum. Peace.

[ClassWarrior]

1. Amen from this Gentile, joel.

Shalom indeed.

[fudge stripe cookays]

2. Shalom, Joel.

Very well said.

I don't often venture into Israel/Palestine discussions, but your plea for sensitivity is a good one.

FSC

[MikeG]

3. Don't you know? - Iraq War caused by Some Clever Jew *sarcasm*

Damn, why didn't we see this coming.

You know they control everything.

(This from a Roman Catholic who sympathizes with you)

[Pallas180]

14. I did see it coming. Bushco are long time nazi sympathizers, so why would

they have so many Jews in their government, UP FRONT, (although I must
say that the Neo-con Jews are very strange Jews to follow Strauss'
philosphy and teachings which are straight out Hitler's fascism book).

I thought of this.

Have the Jews in prominent positions in government, pushing for war,
wars which Bushco wanted to secure oil for its own company, Carlyle,
and Halliburton, and Texaco and Chevron and Unocal (and dont tell me
oil executives are Jews ) and then after they have captured the oil.\
and the war goes badly, blame it on the "Jews" for getting them into
the mess in the war.

Once a Nazi always a Nazi.

for Bushco a win win situation - land, money, oil, who cares about the
election ....they already drained this country.

And the Jews , as we have seen anti-semitism rise world wide, get blamed for the village idiot's mistakes.

Sure, I'd like to see Wolfowitz, and Feith, and Libby hanging in the
wind, so to speak,,,,but as NEO CONS , not as Jews.

Hello WW3.
the whole Middle East is armed with nukes (thank you Dick Cheney)

Just what Falwell, advisor to the dimwit wants....kill the Jews, and Jesus will come back sooner.

OY.

[ikojo]

17. Pallas180...you describe the plight of court jews precisely

Historically people in power have used Jews as the middle man only to pull the rug out from under them when the flame gets too close to power.

[KittyWampus]

33. Is Chalabi Jewish?

Just wondering.....

[Pallas180]

47. Crying Shame, just as there are Israeli Arabs and Christians, there

are Arab Jews. Chalabi is not one of them.

There are even black Ethiopian Jews.

[Pallas180]

46. Or, as in England

when it came time to pay back the loans for war, it was easier to
expel them and keep the money.

That is not to say anything wonderful about Jews who supported WW2
in Germany. They financed Hitler, thinking they were Germans, and
when they weren't necessary anymore...they remembered they were
considered Jews, not Germans, just as they were being shoved into the ovens.

You would think American Jews would have learned and remembered this
history lesson. But they don't.

Ask them why they're voting for Bush- "do you know his family and his family's business associates have a long history of supporting and financing Hitler in WW2?

" He supports Israel. He's Israel's friend.".

Yah. Sure. And what about what he is doing to America?

Blank stare.

[Sugarbleus]

4. I support you.

You made a clear and rational appeal. I support your suggestion and respect you for it.

Shalom.... SB

[cally]

5. Agreed...

Thanks for the reminder. We all have to be sensitive.

[Vox_Reason]

6. "A word about sensitivity regarding jews and Israel."

I agree with Sugarbleus. Well done, Joel.

Peace to you and to all of us!

[silverweb]

7. Good post and thank you.

This is an issue that is going to have to be dealt with. I am not of Jewish descent, but have many friends who are both ethnic and religious Jews.

One thing I learned long ago is that there are huge differences between being pro-Israel and being militantly Zionist.

I hope everyone here at DU is aware of the difference and is sensitive to it. There are rough waters ahead and we here at DU all share the same life raft.

Shalom!

:hi:

[Eloriel]

16. I'm very aware of it

One of my dearest friends is Jewish, and she too finds the Sharon regime reprehensible.

MY problem comes in where people who are Jewish CAN'T (and too often don't even want to) differentiate between what people are saying.

I think Joel's post is excellent. But it would've been far more helpful to have also told the "every criticism is anti-Semitic" crowd to hold themselves at some abeyance and possibly gone out to outline what he thinks makes some posts offensive even tho that's not intended. Put another way, I'm sick of being shouted down by people who can't tell the difference, people who use anti-Semitism as a tool to protect, camouflage and enable some rather nasty business by Sharon &Co. To be specific, people who promote the New Anti-Semitism:

Halper: Yes. Anti-Semitism feeds on the idea that Israel is a victim. The Foreign Ministry of Israel invented a new form of anti-Semitism in the last few years called the 'New anti-Semitism,' and they then found some professors willing to give it some academic credibility. The New anti-Semitism that is now being spread all over says that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism, period. And it has been very effective.

The whole article is worth reading: http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/module.php?mod=book&op=print&id=806

I can absolutely understand American Jews having sympathy towards Israel (as opposed to sympathy towards Sharon), but if I were an American living in just about any other country on earth, I wouldn't have ANY problem with citizens of that country dissing George Bush's America. The only thing I would do is try to tell them what we all know about Israel: that not every American just as not every Israeli or every Jew in the world supports the craziness of our so-called leader(s). As long as I knew that they understood that, I'd not take the dissing of Bush or America personally at all. And I really don't think that's too much to expect of American Jews re Israel.

Put yet another way: I have no idea how to HONOR Joel's request to "be sensitive."

[foo_bar]

40. Replace "Jew" with "woman";

change anti-Semite to misogynist ("..all I do is say biznatch and you-know-who gets hysterical!")

At least I think that's the gist of Joel's request.

[Eloriel]

43. Facile, but not particularly helpful

"Replace "Jew" with "woman";"

Ugh. I don't think in terms of "Jew" this or that. I DO think in terms of Israel this or that. And I have plenty of problems with Israel this AND that these days. I don't criticize "Jews." I DO criticize people who happen to be Jewish, I do criticize people (of whatever race/religion, it matters not) whose support for Israel is myopic and ultimately destructive. And I also believe that Israel has some tentacles stretching into USA policies that aren't in the USA's best interests, and that too has nothing to do with Jewishness or Jews.

Quite simply, I reject the notion that all criticism of Israel is ipso facto anti-Semitism. The "Semite" part only occurs to me when it's brought up. Israelis are simply people to me. Period.

As I said, I understand Joel's point, I just don't know what to do about it because the point itself seems to be (forgive me, but it does seem to me to be) overly sensitive.

If you ever find me saying "Jews this" or "Jews that," or trotting out any stereotypes, THEN come talk to me about analogies with sexism. Deal?

[foo_bar]

45. misogynists don't think in terms of "women"

If you're ever taken aback by paternalistically medieval expressions in modern speech, that's how Jews feel when dark age tropes survive the written tradition. For instance, comparisons between Rachel Corrie and Calvary have an extra signifier to the progeny of pogroms. Teasing that line doesn't make you a Cossack, but it extinguishes reason until a moderator locks.

[Eloriel]

52. Yeah, well, like I said

if you ever find me tossing out "dark age tropes," then let's talk about the analogies with sexism.

[silverweb]

44. I agree it can be difficult.

There are so many shadings and variations in people's feelings on this that it's hard to keep up sometimes.

I just try to keep my distance from debates and reiterate my belief -- that all people need to learn to respect each other's differences and live together in peace.

That may sound like a naïve, utopian kind of thing to say, but it's the goal I hold in my heart and thoughts -- especially when we seem so impossibly far from achieving it.

Some people in my old neighborhood had the right idea. They hung a banner over their garage that said, "The solution to the problems in the Middle East" and had the flags of Israel and Palestine crossed.

Like all of us, Eloriel, all you can do is your best to try to "be sensitive" or anything else considered good and noble.

:hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. Good call Joel

[aquart]

9. Be as sweet as you please.

But there is nothing as disgusting as watching the so-called progressives fall into line with the oil interests who use Israel as the distraction from their oppressive, greedy regimes.

Why? Because it satisfies an inner ugliness they will never admit.

[Wind Dancer]

10. An eloquent statement.

Thanks for sharing.

[Maeve]

11. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to get you

Rest assured that Skinner et al will stomp on any bigotry that arises (use the ALERT, folks! or they might miss it), but it most assuredly will rear its ugly head.

[RummyTheDummy]

You're right

Sometimes even I find myself getting carried away with vitriol toward Israel. Though my disdain has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with Sharon.

[Trajan]

12. AS one who usually feels a compulsion to lambaste the Likudniks ...

It is important to make the distinctions ....

The problem isnt jewishness: it is Rightism .... Sharon/Likud is a Right Wing Party, just like the one I oppose here in the US ...

[TrustingDog]

27. exactly, too bad this obviousness has to be pointed out.

My despising Bush, his policies and his filthy team does not mean I dislike Americans as a whole (just the dumb freeper ones)

[AntiCoup2K4]

13. I don't believe PNAC & Likud represent most Jews....

...any more than I believe Osama Bin Laden speaks for most Muslims or Bush, Falwell, & Robertson speak for most Christians.

If I question the loyalty of PNACers, it's not because they happen to be Jews, but that they are active agents of the Israeli government. I do not believe it is right to be employed by the governments of two different nations, and whether that other nation is Israel, the UK, India, China, or whomever is irrelevant. For that matter, the Bush family ties to both China and Saudi Arabia border on treason

This Goyim supports the state of Israel, but isn't crazy about their current government. But I don't like our current government either.

Shalom.

[bearfan454]

15. Shalom

I want this to help get bush out of office. I hope it does. It doesn't matter what country it was to me, as long as it hurts bush that is a good thing.

[goclark]

19. Sholom

and beautifully stated original message.

[atreides1]

18. Not A Flaming, Just A Statement

Watching Brazilian Americans cheer on the Brazilian soccer team or them wishing well for Brazil, is not the problem.

I don't have any problems with Americans from other countries cheering on the teams of their former countries or even wishing them well.

The problem I have is who they are loyal to, loyal in the sense that should such an event as say a war develop between the US and their
former country, who will they fight for.

You can be proud of Israel as a Jew, but as an American you have to decide where your loyalty lies, with Israel or with the United States.

Yes the Sharon government is reprehensible, but he was elected by the people of Israel, unlike Bush. The biggest problem I see, is if this causes the Bush cabal some damage, it will also cause damage with the US relationship with Israel.

A concept is an idea, and the concept of a Jewish homeland isn't a bad idea. But Hawaiians would like to have some control over their homeland which did exist but was taken by force, the Native Americans would love to have their homeland, but they live on reservations. You see we Americans have a homeland, and it's not based on ethnicity or religious faith, we have a country where we all
have to fight to keep it, where we have to keep it free, free from tyranny both without and especially from within. Unlike you I don't have a second country to run away to should things get real harsh here, so my loyalty is to the United States of America, and unlike you I cannot share that loyalty with another country. For me and millions of other Americans this is it, we fight where we stand, we don't get to run some where else, this is our homeland.

This is a choice that every American has to make, and it doesn't matter if you're Jewish, Muslim, from Brazil or Turkey. Part of the oath taken by those who were not born in the US is to denounce allegiance to their country of origin, part of the oath taken by US military personnel is to defend the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic.

No where in either of these oaths does it say with the exception of this country or this ally.

What would your feeling be if the "spy" wasn't Israeli, but Russian or even Chinese, would you still have put out a word about sensitivity
about those of Russian or Chinese ethnicity?

You see to me as an American, it doesn't matter who the spy is, if this person is an Israeli agent then it's an Israeli spy, not a Jewish spy, but an enemy of my country irregardless of what their ethnicity is.

And if this agent was able to assist in the development of policy, then they would be as responsible as Bush is for the deaths and injuries that have been suffered by the Iraqi people and for the deaths of coalition military personnel and the wounded who will be
marked for life by the injuries they have suffered.

So to me it doesn't matter what the agent is, it just means that the
United States has another potential enemy, only this time it's a country that some Americans might be more loyal to then they are to the United States.

But I wish you peace, and the ability to make a choice when and if that time should ever come.

Aloha

[JerseygirlCT]

20. No flames here. I'm not Jewish, but am married to a

(secular) Jew, so consider my family (or half of it!) Jewish.

I don't hate Israel, although like this country, I think they currently have very bad leadership.

Countries spy on each other -- one unfortunately has to expect that every other country will be seeking advantage by gaining information -- even from allies. What's truly troubling is the idea that someone in our government -- at high levels, even -- would seek to get that information to Israel -- and possibly to further right-wing political goals.

Scary stuff.

But I heartily endorse your post.

[timtom]

21. To be perfectly honest

it is my understanding that the REAL issues are certainly not about Jews, nor are they even about Israel. I have heard many wonderful things about Israel. And it goes without saying that many of my friends have been Jewish throughout my life (it's true! I swear it! The patent "cliche-ness" of it notwithstanding.)

It is my understanding that the REAL issues are with Zionism. The word on the street is that Zionism is to the Jewish people what PNAC is to the American people. The whisperings are that Zionism is a major effort to hijack the Jewish cause.

Aleichem Shalom. Waleykem Salaam. Pace.

[TrustingDog]

28. bingo.

"The word on the street is that Zionism is to the Jewish people what PNAC is to the American people."

[MuseRider]

22. My husband is just like you.

We have learned to walk that narrow path. It is a difficult one and occasionally I will say something that really sets him off and I will be completely unaware of the reasons why. It is difficult but a worthwhile thing to remember. Your peoples history understandably contributes to the occasional testyness (for lack of a better term) and we who do not have that history can forget that from time to time and push those buttons. I have worried constantly about what a backlash could do in this country, I am certain you do as well. I am going back up to read the other responses, I have not yet(shame on me). Peace.

[Mr.Green93]

23. hello from another Joel

[H2O Man]

24. Very well said.

I like that you ask for the same understanding and respect as the rest of the human family. I like that you urge people to think, and not be driven by old hatreds. Very powerful message. Thank you.

[Junkdrawer]

25. Many worried about the excesses of Likud leading to antisemitism..

Have I said lately how much I hate Likud? :mad:

[Pallas180]

29. Did you all know that Feith tried to sell this plan to P.M. Netanheyu who

wouldn't buy into it when he was PM of Israel. I refer to the war on
Iraq, Iran, Syrria.

So Feith comes here and sells it to the village idiot...because it
fits right in with PNAC plans -

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. Well said.

As one who has definite opinions contrary to the government of Israel in regards to it's treatment of the Palestinians and it's bellicose stance towards it's neighbors in the Middle-east and the power of the Israel Lobby in this country, I have never been of the opinion that Israel is surrounded by benign countries wishing it well.

I believe that an even handed approach is more than overdue to truly help - rather than interfere - in ending the endless turmoil in the M.E.

I'm against nationalism of any sort. My gradmother was born and raised in Ireland, my mother in England. I have no particular regard for either of those countries above any other as far as "patriotism" is concerned. Nor, do I feel a great deal of "patriotism" for this country.

Perhaps, one day, we can drop those blinders and see ourselves as citizens of a wider world than those defined by jingoism and borders.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

30. It's Bush's and perhaps Sharon's fault NOT the Israeli People's fault

We here should know better than everyone that often the poor citizens of a country cannot help what their knuckle-headed leaders do. Even when a large number of people vote for the person there are still plenty of people (like us) who are not behind some or many of their government's actions.

[Leilani]

31. I think there is a great deal of hostility

building among some Americans, that our government is putting Israeli interests ahead of U.S. interests.

We all know how things work in Washington...you pay to play. Whoever keeps our politicos in $$$$$$ for their next election, gets to exert a certain influence.

When we follow policies that are harmful to our country, & to our citizen s interests, then something is wrong somewhere.

But this has NOTHING, nada, zilch to do with someone s religion.
I have never met a person in my life who is prejudiced against Jews.
Most Americans have a great empathy for Jews, knowing how they have been persecuted throughout history.

So I think we really have to seperate people who are Jews, be they Americans, or Israelis, or live anywhere, & the policies of our government vis s vis the nation of Israel.

That is the crux of the issue: govt policies, not people s religion.
And if I do not agree with Pentagon policies or Israeli policies, that does not make me anti-Semetic.

[elcondor]

32. Thank you for saying this

and I say that as a proud religious Jew. I absolutely agree with you. Shalom my friend! :-)

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

34. Thank you so much for expressing this sentiment. As a Jewish person

(and even if I weren't, for that matter), I appreciate your bringing this up.

Btw, the name "Joel" is so cool to me. It's a cool dude's name. I guess it reminds me of Billy Joel. :yourock:

[Vladimir]

35. Amen to that

the thing is, this will be used by anti-semitic swine as proof that Jews and Israel control the world, whatever the actual implications are. And in the same way that we had to be sensitive to possible wave of Islamophobia after 9/11, we need to be sensitive to a possible wave of anti-semitism after this. I am not saying it will happen, but it might, and we can't have a double standard here. And I speak as someone who has often been accused of anti-semitism for expressing solidarity with the Palestinian cause...

[NashVegas]

36. *Try* Not To Take It Personally

There are going to be assholes on DU about this, who will come out of the woodwork. And there will be those who go overboard in the other direction.

I'm sure the DU mods will have their hands full with both groups. Make use of that alert button if you see someone posting something out of sheer malice and prejudice.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

38. Crisco, that clown scares me.

[NashVegas]

39. Surrender to Batboy

You know you want to.

[in_cog_ni_to]

37. joel, Thank you

for your post. I promised myself a long time ago, to stay out of Israeli threads because they always get nasty, but I want you to know you are not alone.


I'm not Jewish, but my husband and son are and will defend them to my death. Sharon, IMCPO, was the worse thing to happen to Israel. He was the wrong person to lead the Israelis and Palestinians to peace. The wrong person at the wrong time because Bill Clinton or someone like him, wasn't involved in the process anymore. Bush is. Clinton would never have approved of how Sharon has lead Israel. As you stated, his government has been reprehensible.

I don't think you're being over sensitive. You didn't ask anything more than any other person in the same situation would ask. You might like to avoid the Israeli spy threads though because SOME people don't care how you feel about Israel and being Jewish. They just don't care and will say whatever pops into their head....hurful or not.

Shalom

I hope, hope, hope this brings down the Bush cabal!

[chieftain]

41. I Appreciate Your Thoughts , But

it should be a 2 way street . Many of us started as staunch supporters of Israel and have been concerned and then appalled by some of the policies of its right wing governments . Many times when we have voiced those concerns , we have been labeled as anti semites . Blaming Israel for the Iraq debacle is ridiculous . Vilifying people who don't like current Israeli policy is equally so.
All of us should be concentrating on policy issues and how to advance the cause of peace everywhere in the world , but most urgently in the Middle East.
As an Irish-American I have a deep and abiding love for Ireland . This does not make me any less an American . The same holds true for Jewish Americans . All of us should honor the achievements of Jews and their homeland . None the less American supporters of Israel should be able to see the error of the current path of its government and not be defensive just because it is the Jewish homeland .

[stavka]

42. I understand the problem posed here....

"There are a great deal of Jews who love this country, even while simultaneously loving the "concept" of Israel (as a Jewish homeland), and this is not an easy situation for us."

I love the concept of a dreamland for everybody, but Israel is an island of European (white)colonialism of the 20th century variety -

Those who currently govern it, seem bent on pretty crappy policy (not that their neighbors have anything but annihilation in mind - even the military puppet of Egypt would, if the US stopped sending checks)

Israel was a mistake, a well intentioned mistake, but one that makes no more sense than finding those with "original Prussian blood" whatever the hell that means, and planting them in East Germany on the Baltic.

Argument Hint: The Germans tried to wipe them out too.

Frankly there are few TAX issues that piss me off more than the $17.00 I pay each year to both Israel and Egypt. On a similar scale, I wonder if I should be writing $2 checks each to both the Bloods and Crips because somehow that too is in the national interest.

[thebigidea]

48. I'm with Woody Allen on this one: "They're ALL your people."

[burrowowl]

49. Here is a good site

Jewish Voices for Peace

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/about/aboutjvp.html

Many, many are against Sharon.

[TrustingDog]

50. ok, now can we hear a bit about Iraqi families and sensitivy?

I appreciate your note, but I just don't dig it nor understand it in the arena we are in right now, here.

[TrustingDog]

51. shouldn't we be sensitive about everyone?

[mellowinman]

53. I am behind you 100%

I am a liberal. A liberal considers all men his brothers, and all women his sisters. I only use "he" because I am one.

It pains me to watch leftist posters start screaming about "the Jews" as soon as anybody gets to talking about Israel.

There is no room for Anti Semitism in Democratic politics.

That's a fact.

I welcome you as a friend, and a brother.

Peace.

[lanparty]

54. Both sides are full of it ...

...

At some point you have to realize that people are going to fight and there is nothing you can do about it.

There are people on both sides of that conflict that are doing EVERYTHING they can to prolong it as long as possible. They all have their own reasons. For the right wing, the conflict keeps open the steady incursion into Palestinian lands. For the PLO (Tunisians) they keep the conflict going because they have a monopoly on trade with Israel. They're getting rich of the conflict, why end it????

[Nordic]

55. what's your point? Are you the PC police on this issue?

I have to say, I love DU, but the whole PC thing gets a bit irksome and, well, bothersome, when threads get hijacked by people complaining that the poster wasn't properly PC and then people start screaming at each other about it.

Just my two cents. :)

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.