Based on our country's history, did/do we deserve to get attacked?

[Deja Q]

Poll question: Based on our country's history, did/do we deserve to get attacked?

I got asked this on a personals' site and felt it's worthy here.

[arcos]

1. Most people around the globe would disagree with Americans... n/t

[Deja Q]

5. My response to this poll.

Some clearly are angered enough to attack. Angered so much that they refuse to open a dialogue. We are evil to them (just as we call them evil to us, it's almost funny how that all works...)

Las Vegas is enough to anger them.

Tolerating (if you can call it that) of homosexuals might be enough.

Ditto for females.

Our corporate element would justify heinous activities by others.

Any self-aggrandizing justification can be used by anyone if they wanted.

If the US was truly altruistic and out for the betterment of the world, I'd say "NO" as nothing would justify such slaughter. However, reality is a bit different. While I can't say "YES", I sure as hell am embarrassed and outraged over how anti-society, freely exploitive, selfish, and inhuman our corporate leaders are. I can't blame the 'terrorists', and who knows what * and Cheney did in those secret energy meetings that made it such a national security issue. x(

[jdj]

40. It's sad because the people who did this are using the poor

just like Bush uses the poor over here. They are million and billionaires who are making the poor in their countries hate "the west" and focus all their anger here (I mean Saudi Arabia and other extremist countries, not Iraq), just as W. is milking anti-mid-east sentiment and did to justify and get away with invading Iraq. It's just rich boys playing mind games with the peasants in this instance (9/11) although bin Laden is demented, the Saudi family from which he sprung isn't, and culturally they are engaged in the same dog and pony show as the robber barons here. That is just taking these events into account, I'm not including South American or anything else in this.

[physioex]

2. That's like asking do we deserve to be murdered....

I won't answer the question. It is more productive to ask, "What actions are our leaders taking that makes this country less liked and how can we change?"

[swag]

3. Sorry, I suspected the subject line of Freeper trolling

but I see you're the respected hypno-toad.

Dems are constantly being smeared with this "liberals say America deserved 9/11" bullshit, so I don't find the poll question particularly productive.

[babylon_system]

7. When the RWnuts get you to self-censor, they have achieved their victory

Speak your mind, debate openly, don;t be afraid to criticize or be criticized. When they get you to shut yourself up, they have won the debate without firing a shot.

[Kanary]

22. You've described DU quite well.

[Deja Q]

26. Exactly. What's the point to freedom of speech then? Even more strange,

what does one's opinion matter in the end? None of us, from either that 'other' site or our own, has any real power of any sort?

They may be right in their POV. I might be right in mine. We may both be right. We may both be wrong. But the moment we let one side become dominant is when we ALL lose. Even them. They just won't get it until somebody else pulls the same tactics on them.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

34. ...and don't wear a suit...

...unless you want to.

[Deja Q]

8. No problem, though I'd like to add...

I hear ya on your concern.

But at least Dems/liberals THINK about how one's actions affect and effect others. Repukes just do what they want, civility and others be damned. (this harks back to my other response on this thread. I'm ambivalent on the subject... piffle, dichotomies are a pain. )

[On the Road]

4. Did the Victims Deserve It? No

But did the US, as a country among other countries, deserve it? Many times over.

The list of invasions, coups, and second-hand violence by the US is too long is too long to even begin listing. In Indochina alone, over 3 million people died in the 60s and 70s. A hundred years ago in the Phillipines, "30,000 killed a million" in Mark Twain's words. Against that background, what are two buildings collapsing and 2,800 fatalities? This country is so self-centered.

[Deja Q]

28. The cycle continues. I will rejoice when

all of humanity makes a conscious effort to grow up a bit.

However, I don't see that happening. Everybody is too comfortable with the status quo. Besides, who would listen and take a risk at being betrayed? It's too easy for me to glibly jibe about "status quo" and "everybody" and such. Who indeed would listen? Not those we call terrorists as it's rather obvious they want us all dead. Fanaticism does have its drawbacks, unfortunately. With our instinctive trait of "kill or be killed", what options does anybody truly have when, ultimately, we're all only human? (in other words, there is no real hope for change or progress.)

[OHswingvoter]

6. what?

deserved it? No f-ing way. The attack was a declaration of war. Just like Pearl Harbor was.

[Deja Q]

12. I noticed. But did you notice...

Just because I think about the possibilities that led to the attack does not mean the attacks were NOT a declaration of war.

But we need to be responsible in our retaliation.

* and his lackeys has squandered resources and our perception in the world's eye just for his own personal gain. This makes him very bad as a leader, to say the very least. The fact Rumdrinker is still around combined with the apparent acceptance/toleration of the Abu Gharib, et al, prison pics makes everybody involved in that a TRAITOR, I refuse to mince words. Those animals in our uniforms did evil things too and it has hurt or reputation big-time.

Indeed, why didn't the terrorists go after the oil wells instead of two big ironicly phallic symbols of American capitalism? Our country needs oil as much as our bodies need blood. Oh, they sure as hell know NOW about the oil (which is a big reason why it's about $50 per barrel by now, peak oil being a separate concern that won't help matters at all...)

[babylon_system]

15. An act of war?

You mean sort of like the US shelling Lebanon, bombing Libya, supporting Israeli occupation and oppression of Palestinians, propping up the Shah of Iran, mining Nicaragua's harbors, assassinating Patrice Lumumba and Salvador Allende, supporting right-wing death squads around the world, invading Grenada and Panama, bombing Iraq and enforcing a 12 year siege on the country?

Stuff like that?

[OHswingvoter]

20. I say that you cannot excuse what was done.

I am not interested in a laundry list of why America is bad, or hearing how what was done to us is morally equivalent to things that have been done in the past. We have to protect our own. The whole point of having a country is to band together to protect our interests and our persons.

And we need to get back to the days when we had strong Democratic leaders who did protect our own. Guys like FDR, Truman, and Kennedy didn't take any shit from anyone. I want Kerry to be tough and bring back the days when America takes care of its own (at home and abroad) and is strong and respected. Yes respected enough that no one dares take a pop at an American citizen, not on our soil or anywhere else in the world. I believe this was the message Kerry was putting out at the convention and I am eager to see this happen.

[Deja Q]

24. I'm not excusing it. What can be excused anymore? It's not

up for me to decide what is or is not moral. Or anybody else.

Makes no sense anymore nor would it matter because one's morality is another's sin.

I love what you said about Kerry. I hope he wins and I hope what you say becomes reality.

Yes, we have to protect our own. But what's to protect when we can't get jobs or healthcare? What's to protect when those spit on us? What's to protect when our economy is going downhill, combined with shifting tax burdens combined with a debt that alone is a grandiose embarrassment. What's to protect when our own president openly insults the American worker while openly supporting the offshoring of jobs (and we all know what that leads to)? This is atrocious that our own leader would be so DISRESPECTFUL to his own people in such a manner.

Anyone who wants to be President these days is either severely mentally ill or incompetent (* fits both of those categories) or insanely optimistic (Kerry). Then comes peak oil, which will subside anywhere between four years ago to eight years from now, and watch how Kerry gets the blame for not doing anything when reality has shown that Reagan, Clinton, and two Bushes did NOTHING about it?

[OHswingvoter]

29. I agree with you.

Jobs healthcare equal treatment etc at part of what I mean by protecting people at home. The great Democrats of the past that I mentioned (FDR, Truman, and Kennedy) all were just as strong if not stronger domestically than in foreign policy. But none of the great democratic leaders of the past have been weak in foreign policy. And if we want to continue to be strong as a party, we need to destroy forever the meme that we have become weak in the area of foreign policy.

One thing--you said that the Bushes did NOTHING--ha! Both Bushies have worked overtime to destroy this country. They have been much worse than presidents who have just done nothing! But otherwise I agree with you in what you said.

[Deja Q]

35. Oops. One tiny clarification.

Glib writing on my part. The Bushies (as with Reagan and Clinton) did nothing in regards to get us off our oil dependency. Clinton reversed the 55MPH ruling, and Reagan cut all the alternative energy programs in the name of obsolescence (which would be funny if it wasn't so dead serious). Still, Clinton's 55MPH reversal is nothing compared to Reagan and the Bushes.

[OHswingvoter]

37. I think we are pretty

much on the same page here. you have no arguments from me.

My basic meme is the Bushies have done their best to destroy this country. The way to sell Kerry to the folks at home is that he will be a strong old school Democratic leader who will take care of us domestically and in foreign policy.

[babylon_system]

25. The world needs to move past tribal/nationalism

You might not be interested in hearing what America does with its military to innocent people around the world but that is precisely the kind of selfish self-absorbed inhumanity that sparks anti-American hatred. Being cruel, selfish and unconcerned about the rest of the world's people as in your naive vision of America as global bully is what got the US popped on 9.11. You can either work to reform this country and its fascistic foreign policy or you can be part of the GOProblem.

[OHswingvoter]

36. In my experience, real Democrats

do not "blame America first" for everything. When someone says crap like this, I think they are just trying to make the Democrats look bad in the eyes of lurkers. Right now, most people are very well aware that people are only going to vote for the guy that will protect them the best. Trying to make us look like wimps who will not protect our own is not going to help us win this election.

[babylon_system]

38. "My country right or wrong"

Prescription for disaster.
You are worried about image, "lurkers" and winning elections by trying to be more fascist than the fascists when you should be checking your morality, your soul and what you have become.

[OHswingvoter]

39. no please do not twist my

words. I did not say my country right or wrong. I did say that we have to have a strong country not a weak one. I believe that this is a position that Democratic leaders throughout history have had.

I also believe that an attack like we suffered deserves a strong response (just as Pearl Harbor did). And Democrats who want our country to be weak or the Democratic leadership to be weak are not going to help us win this election. Things have changed a lot because of this attack on American soil. Like it or not, Americans want a president who will keep them safe. We need to stress this about Kerry. Speculation on how we may have deserved it is not going to help us win this election. I believe you are a smart person and I am sure you are well aware of this. Making us look weak is a sure way to destroy us.

And I want to WIN this election. So I do not appreciate it.

[Ron Green]

23. Maybe more a heinous crime than an act of war...

seeing as how there was not really a state which made war against the U.S., but a group of Islamist thugs who stole some planes and made a huge murderous mess.

[OHswingvoter]

33. I can agree with that. n/t

[Geo55]

9. acording to Jerry , Pat and the big O.....you betcha ! n./t

[Sufi Marmot]

10. Meaningless question

Countries are amoral, composite, abstract entities and as such, don't "deserve" or "not deserve" anything.

If you're asking whether the victims of 9/11 "deserved" to die because of the actions of the American government, then my answer is no, of course not.

That's the tragedy of living in a society - people are often the unwitting victims of the consequences of other peoples' actions.

-SM

[Deja Q]

14. In other words, we're only human.

n/t

[Dookus]

11. not unexpectedly,

this is already picked up on the "other" site. Good job. Ask a meaningless question that can used as ammo against us.

[Deja Q]

17. So what? I could care less if they lit their farts on fire.

This whole thread is hyperbole and everybody is going to have a thought about it.

And plenty of DUers have done the same thing to threads from that "other" site.

And the childishness goes on and on and on.

The overall idea at work? People should be considerate of others. We have a right to defend ourselves. We have a right to also prove we are civil after claiming to the world that we are civil. We have a right to speak up (freedom of speech, which is something people have DIED for - those in power want to use their contrived deaths of 3000 Americans to eliminate freedom of speech). A good defense is not offense, this is not a football game where the skin of a dead animal is hauled 300 feet.

There's no point in only a discussion where nobody talks.

[KittyWampus]

13. No One Ever DESERVES To Be Attacked.

One can, however, create cirumstances where another party finds attacking a necessary or desirable option.

[Monte Carlo]

16. Personally I think that's a question for God, but...

... I think that anyone who knew the history would have some gall to act shocked and suprised at what happened on 9/11. We've known that they've been out to get us for years and years, and they caught us with our pants around our ankles that day. The people in the towers and in the Pentagon didn't deserve to die, but as its been said, we've had a history together.

[Deja Q]

19. Exactly. Nobody deserved to die.

The attacks were despicable, I hope our 'friends' at the other forum bother to think enough to realize what had happened was despicable, instead of doing their usual "liberals wanted it to happen" projection bullshit. And somebody would eventually hate us no matter how benevolent we could ever possibly be, in which case we need to defend ourselves proper.

Trouble is, what happened since then and what had been revealed about what the US did (or did not do) before 9/11 has said volumes about the * administration.

All I do know is that they do hate us, and post-9/11 has only angered them far more and as a result has caused many more deaths. That puts the blame on the leaders because they are the ones manning the helm.

[Hidebo]

18. No country but Iraq deserves to be attacked period

Possibly Iran and North Korea deserve to be bombed.

[Deja Q]

21. Not even Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia?

I mean, that's where OBL lives.

Why not Saudi Arabia? 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers came from there. Somehow both of those countries would be more valid targets in this much vaunted "war on terror".

Why does "only Iraq period (with the following other possibilities)" deserve to be bombed? The hype that Iraq was an imminent threat was debunked as a load of steaming cattle cack. Mud in our eye.

[babylon_system]

31. Don't forget Syria

Axis of Evil according to God Boy.

[Dookus]

27. The people who died that day

certainly did not deserve to get killed.

[Deja Q]

32. Didn't I say that somewhere else in this thread?

:shrug:

Matthew Shepard didn't deserve to die either. That didn't stop his killers though. Or his parents. Or the killers' punishments.

[soothsayer]

30. Not us right thinking Americans

But what our 'national security state' has done WITHOUT OUR KNOWLEDGE and BEHIND OUR BACKS, yeah, THEY deserve it, not us!

[Moderator]

41. Locking

This kind of poll is inflammatory.