ben stein says that 'poor' is based on how much you pay for food

[mopaul]

and that the economy is strong and that the poor have got it good compared to some nations.

i hate fucking ben stein

[mopaul]

1. then he said Kerry is NOT a man of faith, but bush IS

i hate fucking ben stein

[madmax]

2. Did I ever tell you that

I hate ben stein.

[mopaul]

6. i wish i could win ben stein's fucking money

fuck a buncha ben stein

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Then the economy stinks

the only way I can get by is to go to the local bent can store run by Mennonites, the bread thrift store, and the garden.

[stranger_with_candy]

20. bent can store?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

47. Yep

it's a grocery salvage store. You can buy dented cans of food, boxes of cereal that are slightly caved in, and stuff like that. Most of it is ok, and all is safe-just some of the stuff has wound up being awfully stale and inedible.

[LuminousX]

60. Although...

ask a food scientist and s/he will tell you a dented can has a greater chance of containing contaminated food. But that is okay, only poor people have to seek out those kinds of bargains and hey, with our mighty health care system, if it so happens a rich person does accidentally get a dented can that is tainted - they'll be well in no time. Oh, I'm sorry, the poor will have to suffer.

[libertad]

55. I was just thinking the same thing.

[LWolf]

4. I think "poor" starts with

how much you spend on shelter. I'd add food, clothing, and energy to that, but the bottom line...housing costs are the biggest factor, imo.

[Massacure]

5. The formula for poor is based on the average cost of food times X, IIRC

And poor do have it better than in a lot of African nations.

However, that isn't an excuse to allow people to go without education and healthcare.

[aquart]

9. Yeah. Is he saying our goal is to emulate Somalia?

[0007]

13. What does IIRC mean?

IIRC -- If I Recall/Remember Correctly

IIRC -- If I Read Correctly

IIRC-- If I Really Cared

IIRC-- If It Really Counts

IIRC -- Image and Identity Research Collective

IIRC-- International Internet Recruiting Consultants

[Massacure]

15. If recall correctly.

[masshole]

21. I always thought it meant

Increasingly Idiotic Republican Cheerleaders

[Tight_rope]

35. LOL...I like this meaning the best!

[JanMichael]

17. No it isn't. It's $18,810 for a family of four, $9,393 for a single person

Ben was talking out of his fundy ass.

[Vladimir]

22. Depends on what measure you use for

poverty levels, and whose statistics you read. Purchasing power parity methods are popular for doing comparative studies but have their problems.

In any case, as someone has said, claiming to be better than Somalia is not saying much.

[JanMichael]

24. Of couse you can measure it differently, but the fact is that it's...

...measured in a specific way in America by the Census Department.

I personally think it's low at $18,000 or so for a family of four, but Ben was flat out wrong in his interview, frankly I think he just didn't know.

[Vladimir]

28. I have no doubt that he doesn't have a clue

the issue is fraught with subtelties, especially when it comes to comparisons with the third world.

An interesting few papers on the subject:

http://www.columbia.edu/~sr793/count.pdf

http://www.columbia.edu/~sr793/povpop.pdf

http://www.columbia.edu/~sr793/dialogue.html

[Ready4Change]

7. Ah, so, according to Ben Stein...

As long as Americans aren't emaciated and covered in flies, they aren't poor.

I'm sure the people who can't afford school supplies for their kids are happy to hear that at least they aren't poor! Whew!

[sffreeways]

8. Public assistance

expects a single person to get by on $89.00 a month for food in PA. If it weren't for disability $ I'd starve.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. Hey, sffreeways!

Good to see you back on the board.

:hi:

[peacetalksforall]

10. Evidently, he's an advisor to Rove. What a twisted minded inhuman alein

[Cleita]

11. Well, he is among the believers of the

"people are poor because they are lazy club". I don't know if these rich guys have a clue that they got a chance to make big money because they were lucky, no other reason. If Stein had never gotten that first call that opened doors for him in show biz, he would be a shoe salesman probably.

I knew many actors, comedians and others who worked as bartenders, servers and other jobs they could do at odd hours waiting to be called in for an audition, many far more talented than Stein. Very few ever did get that call. It's really all a matter of luck and then playing the political celebrity game that follows. Working hard is not the reason although one must work hard after getting that door opened. It's still plain old luck.

[immoderate]

32. It didn't hurt that his father was Nixon's lawyer, either.

IIRC.

--IMM

[Cleita]

40. I didn't know that, but that makes him even

more lucky that he was born in a family with wealth and connections. After WWII, many of the aristocratic, titled Europeans who had been raised in privilege found themselve without anything but the clothes on their backs. Many of them immigrated to America and could find work only as maids, sales clerks, doormen, janitors and so on.

The only silver lining I see in the destructive direction *w is leading our country is that when it's all over, these inflated ego country club types will find themselves carrying the bags on the golf course instead of playing the game. Karma is a bitch.

[nyhuskyfan]

12. This one shocked me...

The number of people living under poverty went up by 5 million in the first three years of the Bush administration, and is now 12.5 percent (I think - I might be a little off).

But the poverty line is amazingly only an $18,000 income for a family of FOUR. That's it. I could scrape by on that myself, but with three others in the house?

[JanMichael]

19. No you'd have to live off of $9,393 in America to be Impoverished.

Alone that is.

[jackieforthedems]

45. What I Heard, Too

regarding the poverty level and how it's measured. But, hey, isn't Ben Stein a Jewish guy?! I'm surprised he supports Bush with the Bush family connection to Hitler, etc...

[drdigi420]

14. his name has been respelled: BIN STAIN

[Dude_CalmDown]

16. Then please stop fucking him

What a horrible image. :evilgrin:

On Edit: Forgot the Evil Grin

[JanMichael]

18. Ben either lied or he's a f'ing "Moran". It's income & family size...

...not FOOD.

Sniveling fuckwits all.

[Nikia]

23. Depends on where you live

Housing in many parts of the U.S. is expensive. Many people are spending over half their income on housing. In places where housing is cheaper (rural areas), there often isn't public transportation which usually makes having a vehicle and paying for gas a necessity. In cold parts of the United States, the cost of heating is often a factor in making it hard for people to scrape by. Then what if the poor person got sick. Some people say that poor people are stupid and/or lazy but really to get by on low wage income takes a lot of brains.

[drdigi420]

25. yes it does, and my mom was incredible with a budget

no way i coulda done what she did after her and dad split up

[htuttle]

26. Ben Stein. Millionaire. Amateur Hypnotist

Sorry, Ben, it's not going to work. You can't talk people out of feeling hungry.

Nice try at being 'in touch with the people', though.

:eyes:

[Lefty48197]

27. I hate Ben Stein too. He is such a dick.

Poor people aren't poor, because they have food. What a stinking genius you are Been.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. Well, it's poor peoples' own fault that they're poor.

If they'd just try harder they wouldn't be complaining. All they have to do is go to Harvard Business School and have Daddy buy them a business or two. But, NOOooooooo!! They go to those lousy ghetto schools and flip burgers or live in shacks and pick tomatoes. Or, clean houses and change bedpans.

Is it Ben Stein's fault that they didn't have the gumption to buy a new BMW to drive to job interviews? Is it George W. Goober's fault that they chose to live in Watts or an immigrant labor camp?

Besides, if they lived in Somalia or Liberia, they wouldn't have all the glorious opportunities offered to them in this wonderful country to work their way up from janitor to CEO of Halliburton.

God, it must be nice to be a Republican and not have to pay attention to anything but your bank account and complain about the lazy poor and the horrible taxes you have to pay.

[sleepyhead]

38. Nice post.

George W. Goober. Very useful. Thanks.

[Digit]

30. I won't watch another movie he appears in

Or show he hosts. That's it for me.

[Tight_rope]

34. We make them rich and now they say we deserve to be "POOR"!

I'm with you. I'm boycotting his sorry ass too!

[Tight_rope]

31. The ignorance is imbedded in them...but it's "NO" excuse!

[SammyWinstonJack]

33. Excuse me, but who the hell ever listen to anything this Moran says?

Another self serving selfish self absorbed A hole!

[stavka]

36. I think he is right in that our poor have it better than most....

BUT WE SHOULDN'T HAVE ANY POOR!


AS A NATION WE MAKE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO HAVE POOR

WE MAKE A CHOICE THAT ALLOWS CHILDREN TO GO TO BED HUNGRY

Other nations don't have that luxury

[stavka]

37. ...oh, and an educated Jew should know better....

[phylny]

39. Poor is so much more than having or not having food.

I used to think I knew what poor was, but now having moved and changed jobs, I'm now working amongst truly poor people. This is a life-changing, eye-opening thing for me. Formerly, I owned a private practice and my clients were people of means who could afford my rates. Now, with this move, I'm working with people of all different income levels, many of them poor.

Let me tell you a bit about what I've observed it means being poor: Two families sharing a house that's smaller than my garage, where the bedrooms have no closets so that all of their possessions, clothes, towels are stacked up against the wall or on the bed. Sure, you can clean the house, but everything is so old and cramped and disorganized that you could hardly tell if the apartment is clean or dirty.

There's certainly no privacy, no time for being alone, because the other family in your apartment is always there, and then of course there are the six other families that share the rest of the building. Eight families in four apartments. Tempers are short due to overcrowding.

The children have no toys, no backyards, no playgrounds, don't get outside to play or get to go swimming or to a beach because there's no money for gasoline, or even bathing suits. Mothers stay at home and watch other people's children to earn some money. There's no money for birth control, so families are big and children are born so close together that there's little time to nurture them individually. The mothers have no respite from housework or childrearing, and no ability to go out and earn money to help the family because who would watch the kids?

Babies and toddlers in diapers with roaches and other insects in them are common. There's no air conditioning this year as maybe there was in the past because everything else is too expensive. Education is the only way, the only hope that their children will grow up to make a decent wage, but many families have such a poor grasp of English that they can't understand the notes coming home from the teachers and don't have time to check homework that they don't understand.

There are no pension plans, no savings accounts, and there is certainly no stability for the future.

Yes, people may have food, but it doesn't mean that they don't still go to bed hungry. And it doesn't mean that they go to bed in clean sheets with cool air blowing. Where mom and dad have a bedroom all to themselves, where two or three children don't have to share a twin bed.

As I said, my experience and what I've seen has been humbling. All of the things I take for granted - my car, the ability to fill it with gasoline, my cell phone, a clean, roach-free house, time and space to read and relax, a garden - all these things are such priveleges.

There are so many people in this country who work hard and live honestly and are still dirt poor. They're taken advantage of due to their lack of education, or poor English. When was the last time the president walked amongst the poor? Certainly I never had until recently. Seeing how other people live, seeing children having to live like this, might change policy forever.

It's my hope that John Kerry will win and will work to help America take care of our poor and our children. I hope he understands that as a nation, we're only as strong as the least among us.

Jesus said, "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and your gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in. I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.... I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for Me." Matthew 25: 35-36 & 40

[stavka]

41. Thank you for that post.

"Jesus said, "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and your gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in. I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.... I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for Me."

[Digit]

44. Eyeopening post

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. This is typical Republican crap

"You live better than the peasants in Bangladesh."

The trouble is that Americans don't get to pay Bangladesh prices.

[pbg]

43. "America! Not As Bad As Ethiopia!'

Yeee-haw.

[libertad]

56. That says it all!

[Warren DeMontague]

57. But -- we ARE Trying! Give us Time! n/t

[JSJ]

48. ben stein never missed a meal in his whole focking family funded life n/t

[bread_and_roses]

49. The formula is based on food costs

which doesn't mean that it reflects reality.

The formula was devised way back in the '60s. At that time it was determined that on average people spent a third of their income on food. So a bare-bones diet was devised - called "the economy diet" (some say not even nutrionally adeqate)and it's cost multiplied by 3 to find the poverty threshhold. The idea was that if a third of your income could not buy you this "economy" diet you were poor. So, from the start, "poor" was defined as not having enough money to buy enough food to avoid malnutrition. (The "economy" budget is incredibly mingy, btw...allowing, for instance, one cup of lemonaide per person as a day's "snack" - nothing else. Tell that to some hungry teen, or grade-schooler who gets home from school hungry.)

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/poverty.shtml

"Orshansky knew from the Department of Agriculture's 1955 Household Food Consumption Survey (the latest available such survey at the time) that families of three or more persons spent about one third of their after-tax money income on food in 1955. Accordingly, she calculated poverty thresholds for families of three or more persons by taking the dollar costs of the economy food plan for families of those sizes and multiplying the costs by a factor of three — the "multiplier." In effect, she took a hypothetical average family spending one third of its income on food, and assumed that it had to cut back on its expenditures sharply. She assumed that expenditures for food and non-food would be cut back at the same rate. When the food expenditures of the hypothetical family reached the cost of the economy food plan, she assumed that the amount the family would then be spending on non-food items would also be minimal but adequate. (Her procedure did not assume specific dollar amounts for any budget category besides food.) She derived poverty thresholds for two-person families by multiplying the dollar cost of the food plan for that family size by a somewhat higher multiplier (3.7) also derived from the 1955 survey. She derived poverty thresholds for one-person units directly from the thresholds for two-person units, without using a multiplier. The base year for the original thresholds was calendar year 1963."

Today, an "average" family does not spend a third of its' income on food - I believe the cost of food has actually gone down relative to other basic needs since the '60s. But the costs for housing and energy have soared.

Both the economy budget and recipies are availbale on-line, but I can't locate them right now (one link from the HHSA is broken); if I can find them later I'll post them. I challenge just about anyone to provide adequate nutrition on the "economy budget."

Bottom line, the incredulousness expressed in the posts here is on-target: this measure no longer works. A more accurate measure would show FAR more people in poverty...so, how likely is it do you think it will change any time soon?

[sendero]

50. Someone needs to tell Ben Idiot Stein...

... that the standard for prosperity in America is not some third-world survival metric, but the prosperity of our own past.

Maybe Ben is happy with a can of pork and beans, but most Americans would prefer the prosperity of the Clinton years.

What a fucking moron.

[noonwitch]

51. Poor people do pay more for food, frequently

Poor people ride the bus or walk to the store, so their shopping options are frequently limited to the stores that are closest to their houses. Grocery stores in poor neighborhoods are usually more expensive than those in wealthier areas of town, not counting fancy, yuppie grocery stores.

In Detroit, for example, there are only a few chain stores left in the city-one or two Krogers and a handful of Farmer Jacks. The rest of the grocery stores are independent, small and usually filthy dirty inside. They are also overpriced.

In Kalamazoo, when I was a student at WMU, there was a chain called Family Foods, that had 3 stores in the city. One was in Portage, a wealthier part of town, and their prices were the lowest. One was on Stadium Drive, not far from campus. Their prices were slightly higher than the Portage store, but not unreasonably so. The third store was on the north side in a very poor neighborhood. Their prices were higher, plus they tried to get rid of their less than fresh meat at that store.

[patcox2]

61. True, because people don't know how to eat.

Its amazing to me. Poor people buy things like cold cuts and hot dogs, processed foods, those kits like rice-a-roni and lipton noodles-n-sauce. These are very expensive things. Rice-a-roni for two is $1.79, you can get 5 pounds of rice for that. People need to learn to cook from staples and basics. You can buy 50 pounds of rice, 50 pounds of beans, and 5 gallons of oil for less than $50. Supplement it with inexpensive meats like chicken thighs, and fresh vegetables, and you can eat for probably one-tenth the cost of the average low income american's diet. Watch what the mexican and south american immigrants are buying in the grocery stores. They should hold classes for the poor americans with the carts full of soda and ring-dings and all the other expensive processed crap.

[BiggJawn]

52. I'd like Ben Stein to "win *MY* money"....

Clueless fucker. Can't wait for one of those "better off" poor people to put his greasy ass on the barbie...

Gee, I thought that "poor" was based on how much money you had coming in.

"How can a man who's warm understand a man who's cold"

Alexander Solzenitzen-"One day in the life of Ivan Dennisovich"

[Tsiyu]

53. Yes this is what Jesus would say

Just what Ben said (NOT).

I, for one, am proud to be working two jobs, and I think all of my money should go to Corporate Welfare. After all, our Corporations need all the help they can get. I don't REALLY need to eat. I can go a few weeks without food and still have it better than the Bangladeshis.

Must be nice to be such a clueless, heartless son-of-a-bitch. And then have the gall to call yourself "holy."

[AngryOldDem]

54. Ramen Noodles and Hot Sauce

I'll be sure to pass on Mr. Stein's wisdom next week when I'm down at the food bank, getting groceries for the 80-year-old grandmother and the four teenage kids she has custody of...she gets only a nominal amount in food stamps because her income is "too high" (by government standards) to get the assistance that she needs and deserves.

I'll also tell it to the other 250 people who arrive at the food bank as early as 4 a.m. (pantry opens at 9), because they've learned that to get the best food, you have to be the first in line. If you get there too late (say, if you're #251) you run the risk of getting nothing more than government-issue potato flakes, bags of Ramen noodles, and a bottle of hot sauce. If you're running really late, you don't get anything at all and have to go to another equally overextended food pantry in the area and take your chances there.

But if they complain (which they don't) I'll be sure to add that Mr. Stein says they should count their blessings and be grateful that they live in the United States instead of some other nation.

People like Ben Stein -- who have probably never been within 100 miles of true poverty their entire lives -- should get out more. I
feel like going off and living on a deserted island for the rest of my life. I've just about had it with the "compassionate conservatives" and what they have done to this country.

[ProfessorGAC]

58. Figures! Stein Knows Less About Economics Than My Dog

He's a complete fake. A bunch of useless information rolling around his head, but no analytical skills or critical thinking ability. I've had several pets smarter than Ben Stein. He's the king of the idiots in his circles. He's smarter than Bush, of course, but then so is broccoli.
The Professor

[patcox2]

59. From a global and historical perspective, America's "poor" are not poor.

Thats why so many people risk their lives to come here just to work the lowest paying jobs we have, because even that is way, way better than being "poor" back in their country. I have always had a deep appreciation for the fact that we here in America, all of us, even those at the poverty line, are better off than the overwhelming majority of all the people who have ever lived on earth in all history.

Now I think it is appropriate for for people to criticize Stein for setting third world poverty as "the bar," the measurement we should compare to when discussing national policy towards poverty. Take that to its logical conclusion and what he is advocating for is turning america into a third world country, with a wealthy elite living in walled and gated communities, and vast numbers of truly poor (way poorer than today) people who will be motivated by their dire straights to work for less and let the rich exploit them more. Thats evil.

But factually, his statement is pretty reasonable. The thing is, why would anyone but a greedy, selfish jackass envy the poor and want to take away some of what they have on the basis that there are poorer people out there? Now that we have achieved a truly amazing thing, produced a country with such a high standard of living even for the "poor," why would we want to reduce that standard of living, thats what is evil about Stein's statement, not that he points out the fact that to be "poor" in america is to be blessed from a global perspective, thats something to be proud of. but he points it out because he thinks its a problem, that we should lower the average standard of living here. Like most republicans, he wants to go backwards.

[BiggJawn]

63. From a "local perspective" we are.

You know, I might be inclined to agree with you if I had grown up in a hut constructed from cow patties and my mom cooked our rice and beans over an Ox-shit fire and my brothers carried water from the missionaries' well 5 miles down the dirt road.

But I grew up in a TRULY "middle-class" family in the 60's. We had a nice house, my dad drove new cars that he traded ever 3-4 years, mom did not have to work outside of the home, she cooked good food on a Tappan stove, we went on vacation trips in a camper...

Now, I see the rate of inflation go up around 3.25%, when my pay increased only 2%, giving me a net LOSS, and this isn't the first year this has happened. Fuel gets more expensive, thus everything that isn't carried to market in an Amish buggy gets more expensive, and I get poorer.

See? it's all relative. What I consider "abject poverty" would be somebody from the Sudan's dream come true. Doesn't make my feelings of "poorness" any less valid, does it?

The bigger question is why do we even HAVE poor people in this country. Ask a ReTHUGlican, and they'll tell you it's because the poor are lazy. Ask a Liberal, and they'll tell you "Well, you see, compared to some sub-Saharan nations, we don't really HAVE any TRUE 'poor'..."

[tXr]

62. Ben Stein...

Heartless. Moran. Shill.

[rman]

64. At least it's becoming obvious

that what's good for the economy isn't necessarily good for people - except for an already wealthy few of course.