Some DU'ers need to stop degrading others for being human and having human

[revree]

EMOTIONS. If people get sad, depressed, fearful and anxious over things they see happening, how about we live and let live, and offer support instead of arrogant, condescending remarks about CHICKEN LITTLE and other such insulting bullshit I keep seeing.

When we start attacking each other for having very real, human reactions, we are fucking doomed.

[truthspeaker]

1. Hate is also a human emotion.

Should we stop degrading freepers for hating and fearing Muslims? Live and let live and offer support?

[revree]

2. Please read my thread before responding. I am referring to letting fellow

DU'ers feel their fears, express them here openly, which is what these forums are about, and then be able to go on about their business.

God, I am starting to get sick of this place.

[truthspeaker]

5. but their fears are irrational and expressing them helps the GOP

They are giving into the politics of fear.

[Beam Me Up]

7. And how do you counter 'the politics of fear'?

That is the question.

From where I stand, belittling it, deriding it, dismissing it--all that is EQUALLY FEARFUL -- only this time, repressed, denied, unconscious.

Fear can not be dismissed. Neither can it be reasoned with. Fear needs to be HEARD, acknowledged, understood and addressed. Hearing expressions of fear does not mean that one must become fearful one's self.

The appropriate response to fear is REASSURANCE. The question is, can you offer that? If not, then you have no business addressing some one else's expression of fear.

[sffreeways]

11. The gift of fear

a good read about how fear can work in your favor.

Each hour, 75 women are raped in the United States, and every few seconds, a woman is beaten. Each day, 400 Americans suffer shooting injuries, and another 1,100 face criminals armed with guns. Author Gavin de Becker says victims of violent behavior usually feel a sense of fear before any threat or violence takes place. They may distrust the fear, or it may impel them to some action that saves their lives. A leading expert on predicting violent behavior, de Becker believes we can all learn to recognize these signals of the "universal code of violence," and use them as tools to help us survive.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440226198/102-3035905-5570503?v=glance

I agree, the name calling is pathetic

[Ladyhawk]

33. I've read that book.

And I agree it's excellent.

And upon further review, I feel "chastised" by certain prominent DUers. I responded by boot-licking instead of acknowledging the fact that I was, indeed, fearful. I don't like being called names and I don't like being told to "get a fucking grip." Just because someone is prominent and well-respected doesn't give him the right to engage in ad hominem attacks on the entire forum. In fact, prominent, respected DUers have an even greater obligation to think carefully before posting. And I am tired of being expected to boot-lick.

My first response to the fear was the correct one: I donated money to the Dems. Fear is a signal that we need to do something to keep that which is feared from happening.

In the above-mentioned book, The Gift of Fear, there are countless examples of people who acknowledged their fear and did something about it which saved their lives. Those who don't acknowledge fear, that sixth sense, often end up paying the price.

Harness the fear. Use it.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truthspeaker]

14. Yes! USE the fear, don't give in to it.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. expressing their fears doesn't help the GOP and you can't control

what every poster posts here at DU.

[truthspeaker]

25. Baseless fears are bad for morale.

Legitimate criticims of Kerry's campaign and discussion of GOP tactics is fine. But "I'm scared for no reason boo hoo hoo" is just whimpering. We're adults, not kindergarteners.

[Cheswick2.0]

39. nonsense

maybe it's bad for your moral. The rest of us are just fine. Unless someone is campaigning against Kerry or breaking the rules about personal insults, on this board they are entitled to say whatever they want.

Peace of Christ to you brother :7

[democratreformed]

35. A note about irrational fear...

I keep my fears to myself for the most part - especially since I am pretty much a political novice. I have always paid attention and voted, but never gotten involved until this election.

Now, sometimes, it is hard to stop the irrational fears - particularly as it relates to THIS election and THIS administration. In the past 3 1/2 years, I have seen very few rational things come out of this administration. I have seen very irrational things happen over and over again. There have been a few times when I honestly felt that the whole world had gone nuts.

And another thing, those of us who ARE political novices often don't know the difference between rational and irration fears as it relates to this game of politics. All we know is that we firmly believe that the very future of our country is at stake and that we HAVE to make the right decision. It's just that we don't know how to ensure that a MAJORITY of our fellow citizens also make the right decision.

3. Well, actually I'd say yes to your first question---

stop degrading them, but not stop challenging them and blocking them.

I guess that even though I'm not a Christian, I agree with Christ's words.

& I don't know who said it, but hate binds you to the object you hate.

[TheSuaveOne]

4. You bet...

..hate is an awful emotion.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

15. "ignorance is the parent of fear, fear is the parent of hatred, and.....

hatred is the parent of death" ....can't remember who's quote that is but it is correct.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

6. And I'm getting sick of people pretending to be DUers who post...

...pretty much the same comments that you have. Their mission is to be as divisive as possible until they finally get booted. Some have NEVER been booted and are still creating as much hate and discontent as possible.

Am I attacking you personally, or accusing you of being something other than a DUer? No, not at all.

What I am offering is one explanation as to why those folks posting "woe is me" comments find themselves subjected to some rather harsh comments. I also think that this is the way it's going to be on DU until we get those unelected NeoCons out of Washington, DC.

[nolabels]

8. There is such a thing as a learned response

Where is your favorite place to get abuse?
<sarcasm>

I come here to DU to get knowledge mostly. I try to post things that might be interesting or ridicule the installed chimp. Understanding the kind of things that we are up against and still have not succumbed to gives me the strength and willingness to go even further.

You can't pluck the weeds out of your garden unless you get the roots.

9. they manage to skirt the rules

"they" manage to post gop talking points

"they" manage to attack other posters indirectly

etc.

get the point?
Who is this they?

makes me think of Pogo's comment

[Zorra]

18. Bingo. Thank you. n/t

[Pithlet]

28. That's what moderators are for

I hate to be so blunt, but there it is.

I agree with the original poster. I see a mob mentality against people with low posts who don't post how a DUer "should". Are these people sometimes disrupters? Yes. But, the atmosphere created by people berating others they suspect of disrupting is also disruptive. Sometimes these people can be new to DU, and possibly to politics. They may be just newly awakened to the evils of Bush, and come to DU where they feel they can share their feelings and fears. I would hate to think that someone like that was shouted away from DU. I think it's worth it to leave it up to the moderators to weed out the disrupters, because they usually out themselves in time if they truly are.

[chiburb]

38. Normally I agree with you, but not this time...

It has nothing to do with low post counts, but it does have everything to do with "some" people posting the same gloom and doom at every opportunity. While they may very well be "newly awakened to the evils of Bush, and come to DU where they feel they can share their feelings and fears", I suspect many ARE disruptors. Normally, you're right: the Mods do an excellent job of weeding them out. But I suspect a high post count or a star sometimes acts as a shield.

Please note that I'm NOT calling anyone out, or criticizing Mods... just posting an opinion.

[Pithlet]

43. That's okay

You don't have to agree with me every single time. Just most of the time ;)

I do realize that there are disruptors amongst us. And they need banning, that's for sure. I just think that non-mods openly calling them out at the very beginning, with little or no evidence that they actually ARE a disruptor, isn't good for DU. I do think that sometimes those DUers are right. But, sometimes it seems like a huge clique.

My sister came out of the Bush loving haze late. Only recently did she realize that voting for Bush in 2000 was folly. F9/11 was a catalyst for her, as it probably was for many. I could completely see her coming to DU and posting her new found fears about Bush getting re-elected. She still isn't politically aware enough to understand what those chances are. She just sees the possibility of a murderous buffoon getting re-elected. I wouldn't want her to be turned away because she's a newbie who's terrified.

[Cheswick2.0]

44. maybe you can start a covert spy operation and skunk em out

How will you tell the freeper moles from loyal democrats who are not happy about the way th campaign is going? Or do you just intend to shut everyone up?

Look at my post count, do you think I have spent all this time building up DU creds just so I could now complain about the democratic party candidate?

[chiburb]

45. No, you've been consistent all the way through....

:-)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

70. Was I responding to your post, or do you use two or more boardnames?....

Just curious, but where did you see an attempt on my part to shut anyone up?

Hey, it's your idea about becoming a spy....let us all know how it turns out, okay?

[Sugarbleus]

56. WOW................. =o/

n/t

[revree]

10. ALL I AM ASKING...

Is that we understand each other's fearful reactions, and help by showing positive news and counterviews, and at least supporting each other while we are being afraid for our futures.

That is it. There is nothing more to my post than just aksing everyone to work together, and always understand that we are human when we panic over a shitty Gallup poll. Most of us get over that initial panic, and get going again, but we can't deny the panic. We sometimes need some help in getting back on our feet.

That's all I meant.

Thanks for the different viewpoints. That's what these forums are about, but please, let's always try to hang in there for each other.

[truthspeaker]

13. I've tried to understand the fearful reactions and I can't.

I just don't understand them at all. What are they reacting to? More importantly, are they using their fear to motivate themselves and others, or are they just wallowing in it?

[Pithlet]

29. I guess

They just haven't been made hip to the Truth.

[democratreformed]

51. Another point:

As I said, I generally don't share my fears. That's because it IS seen bogus most of the time. But I DO have fears. Most of them come from the fact that I don't know much about how the political process plays out. Sure, I understand the overall process. But, I have never been this deeply involved in watching every minute detail that I can manage to have time to read or look at. I've never watched state polls or electoral college predictors or such things before. I've always cared before but NEVER THIS MUCH about how an election turns out.

[AP]

16. People who try to be part of the solution and not part of the problem tend

to get a better reception in forums like this.

[Selwynn]

27. Speaking the truth is part of the solution, not the problem.

[AP]

30. Yeah. What I said was the truth.

There are productive and unproductive ways to say the same thing. If people want to be coddled and not be criticized because they consistently make the least productive contributions possible, they're deluding themselves.

[Selwynn]

37. "productive" is in the eye of the beholder.

[AP]

40. No. Actually there are very concrete measures of what is productive.

And I think that's what motivates some of the doomers and gloomers.

[truthspeaker]

32. whimpering is not speaking the truth

Have concrete reasons you're scared? Great, let's discuss them. Just have a vague feeling because you've been watching too much CNN? Then buck up and stop whining.

[Selwynn]

36. Says you.

Concrete reasons are still often called "whimpering" by other authoritarian happiness enforcers. :)

[AP]

42. And when does that ever work in the real world. When you whined to your

parents, did that every really work? And if your parents were suckers, did whining to your teachers and college professors, boss and colleagues ever work?

In what real world situation has it ever been productive to whine?

[chiburb]

47. But AP, doesn't the squeaky wheel get greased?

By someone?

;-)

[AP]

48. Ain't that the truth.

[Djinn]

60. so you've never "whined" about

Bush, the theft of the election, the Iraq war, Rove, Ashcroft, The Patriot Act, the moral majority etc etc

Don't bother... "whining' isn't ever productive. Some people may call it venting, or simply discussing (imagine that on a discussion board) but it's whinning isn't it - and should be stamped out, along with any other posts I don't like, I could just ignore them but I think I'll continuously alert on them, harass the people who make them and call them trolls, disruptors and freeps, tell them that they are helping the GOP, post questions about them in the ATA forum, and post my own threads telling them to get a grip and STFU.

[truthspeaker]

49. you consider "I have a bad feeling. I'm worried" concrete reasons?

We're not trying to enforce happiness, we're trying to enforce rational discussion and adult behavior.

[madfloridian]

52. Here is some rational discussion.

I think the Iraq war/invasion was an evil thing. I think our party knew what it was about, that it was about making Iraq ours so we could control the mid east.

If they are not speaking up now, then I must think they approve.

Honest discussion would be for them to tell me the truth about what they voted for. No spin, just straight talk.

Now enforce intelligent discussion on everyone's part.

The more those of us who question are made to feel like annoying little gnats, the more stubborn we become in wanting real answers and plain speaking.

I am not a freeper, check out my post count. I am a lifelong Democrat who feels we need to answer questions that invasion.

[Cheswick2.0]

17. Are the Kerry enforcers at it again?

for some reason voting for Kerry is not enough. You are supposed to pretend all is perfect in the world of Kerry.

26. All is perfect in the world of Kerry, this best of all possible worlds

Sorry, I got carried away.

[Cheswick2.0]

41. I thought the world was sugar cake

or so my master said
but now I'll teach my hands to bake
our loaf of daily bread
we're neither pure nor wise nor good
we'll do the best we can
we'll build our home and chop our wood
and make our garden grow
and make our garden grow.

Sorry having a Candide moment there........

[Malva Zebrina]

20. Those who are expressing their fear are more in touch

with their feelings. They will handle it as well as anyone. But first, the fear needs to acknowledged. Those who berate them for being fearful and expressing it are, actually, in as much in the grips of fear as those they berate.

But they are not in touch with themselves. Not acknowledging the fear might have negative consequences.

You are right--instead of berating--how about: I understand your fear, I sometimes have that same fear myself--but etc. etc. citing what solves or diffuses the fear to the point where it is manageable.

When I first came on DU, there was much of the same hysterical freeper paranoia. Posters who were new, were rather cruelly attacked in different ways--causing harm and it came from those who believed they had some priveledged control and power on DU and they had a loyal following that would be there cheeleading behind their posts and adding to the posts. I was told, after a while, that I was OK, and that everybody has to go through it! Apparently I had pased some sort of criteria. Oh my--I said to myself--really? what kind of a place is this? This, from a well known poster(s)who have been posting here for years.

I feel sorry for those who are new and feel compelled to "explain" their presence on these threads.

I have seen little harm done by the so called trolls here if indeed there are more than one--they will be found out and tombstoned, and if they are not, well really--get over it, get a grip--how much damage can they do?

[Green Lantern]

67. An excellent post!

Fear must be understood and dealt with in an appropriate manner.

[Crunchy Frog]

21. AMEN!!! eom

[Kanary]

34. Interesting -- your Shakespeare quote relates to this thread!

Would that we could all learn much from that wise quote.

Thanks for posting it!

Kanary

[Crunchy Frog]

53. Thank you Kanary but

the credit for that graphic goes to incapsulated. She put it together and was nice enough to let me use it in my sig line.

[Kanary]

54. That's OK -- you had the good taste to post it. ^_^

I also really like your Miles quote. :hi:

Did you hear about his new organization? It's encouraging!

Kanary

[UdoKier]

22. There are ways to express these feelings.

Personally, I think the lounge is a much better place to post the defeatist/depressed type sentiments since they are in effect "vanity posts".

I completely understand why people despair. I don't think any of us are satisfied with Kerry's handling of the Swift Boat "controversy". It was all lies, but he never came back punching.

That being said, there is still time, and hopefully the reshuffling of his campaign staff will allow him to show some backbone.

But really, what is the point of posts that say essentially "We're doomed" with a little personal rant and no links or facts being in GD? It seems much more of a personal issue and thus lounge material to me.

A agree that people shouldn't be attacked for their feelings (although chiding someone about not being defeatist does NOT invalidate their feelings).

A better solution might be for the mods to move posts that are nothing more than laments of despair to the lounge, and they can have their feelings consoled there.

Just my 2 cents...

[Ladyhawk]

46. Hmmm, I never said "we're doomed."

Anything negative I posted always asked, "What do we do about ____?" I think that's the positive way to handle fears. No one can be sure what will happen until it happens.

Why are we here?
Because we're here.
Roll the bones.
Roll the bones.

Why does it happen?
Because it happens.
Roll the bones.
Roll the bones.

"Roll the Bones" - Rush

The important thing is to keep rolling those bones, no?

[UdoKier]

55. I have no idea what you posted.

But I've seen that kind of defeated post that basically serves no function but hurt morale.

If you're addressing specific weaknesses in Kerry's strategy, great. If a certain event has got you down, and you post a link to tell people - okay.

But this stuff like "I can just feel it - Bush is going to win. He's going to trot out Bin Laden/blow up the Golden Gate Bridge as an October surprise!"

We've all been here the last 3 years. We all realize that there is little that is below these people when they get desparate.

But what's the point of fretting about something that hasn't happened, that we can't prevent, and in many cases is little more than flight of fancy?

Here's some constructive criticism. It's time for Kerry to CAN Shrum and Cahill and BRING CARVILLE AND BEGALA ON BOARD!!!!!


Just my 2 cents again...

[Bridget Burke]

23. Why are these emotional posts in GD? Or GD Campaign 2004?

Shouldn't they be in the Lounge? Plenty of people post there when they're having emotional difficulties. They get sympathy & some useful suggestions.

Have these people just realized that there's something rotten in the state of Denmark? Have they forgotten the "Election" of 2000 with the crooks in Florida & the crooks on the Supreme Court? Have they forgotten 9/11 & two unnecessary wars? What about every stinking thing the Bush regime has done to wreck the economy & the environment? Have these people spent the last 4 years thinking everything was just great?

What's the point in starting a thread just to say how scared you are? Scary things have been happening for some time & we really need to focus on the election. Of course there's no guarantee of success; there never is.

And, yes, some of them are disruptors.

[UdoKier]

24. Thank you!

nt

[Kanary]

31. What you are describing is Non-Violent Communication

Understanding rather than criticism.

That's the basis of relating to each other in a Non-Violent manner.

Unfortunately, it's not something that is taught in this society, and most people do not come from a family that operates in this manner.

Some peace groups have delved into this, and have done some training in this, but otherwise, it's not something that is very recognized.

There are resources available which teach the basics of Peaceful Communcation, but there doesn't seem to be uch interest in it.

I've been interested in participating in a group which recognizes Peaceful Communication for quite some times now. I would still hope there are DUers who would prefer this mode, and would be very interested in talking with others about how to go about setting up a venue for interacting in this way.

I will hope this gets some response.

Kanary, with not much hope left..........

[madfloridian]

50. When I express my fears about the war and our Democrats approval of it....

Then I think I am being honest. There needs to be a middle ground for those of us who find it so sad that we invaded another country on lies. Not only that, our candidate is not speaking on it very strongly. Yes, I know he says Bush went to war the wrong way. That is just not enough for it.

Don't start a Dean thing on this either, because he at times has parroted the "wrong way" thing. I disapprove of that as well. What is the "right way" to go to war?

The invasion of Iraq under false pretenses was wrong. It is wrong for a president to have the power alone to declare war. That is the job of congress.

I am no freeper, and I agree....there must be discussion and debate on this issue. And we must not be scolded for sincere questioning.

What was it Dante said? The hottest place in hell is reserved for those who refuse to take a stand in a crisis.....or something like that. Garrison Keillor quoted that recently. We have to take a stand.

[kayell]

57. True, but some posters alsoneed to remember what FDR had to say about fear

[Kanary]

59. One short quote doesn't fit all situations.

And, that was a LOT of years ago....... we actually understand more about psychological realities now.

Kanary

[kayell]

61. I'm not denying the need to be a bit more sensitive

I had to apologize for that very recently myself. But I am saying that some people are letting fear rule their lives to the point where they are both not thinking well at all, and influencing others with their fear verging on hysteria. In that case, if the fear is so overwhelming that it is affecting their lives dramatically, then they need to do something about that fear.

I think that FDR put it in a very neat and tidy nutshell.
------------------------------------------------

Another way of looking at this:

I suffer periodically from pretty severe depression, as do a number of other posters here. It may be appropriate for me to post from that experience about how it can affect one, mental health issues in this country, drug companies and medications and that sort of thing. It might even be ok to say something like, I'm feeling down about ____, can anyone relate if it was politically relevant. And example of a title might be - "is the bush administration leading to more US depression?"

It would not be appropriate for me to us DU as a place to unload all my most horrid symptoms, angst, etc. There are other forums that are the right place.

[Kanary]

62. no argument there...... the point is, who gets to judge???

I think that is the point of the original post...... there is sooo much JUDGEMENT going on here, and people giving not only unsolicited advice, but doing it in quite rude terms. It's nothing but a power trip, and seems to me that's not any the less damaging than someone voicing fears that aren't, in *someone else's view*, "productive".

A bit less judgement and criticism, and a bit more understanding would go a long way.

None of us have a corner on "ultimate truth".

Kanary

[kayell]

63. Of course none of us have the ultimate truth, but we all have opinions

and on the net, people tend to express them fairly freely. If someone is too far out of line for what someone can stand, but not out of line as far as the moderators are concerned, the ignore function is available. Civility is good, but so is a certain level of self control. Somedays we find the balance, somedays we don't.

[Kanary]

64. and judgement will NEVER make for peace

As long as you don't judge me, I won't judge you.

Kanary

[kayell]

65. I have no problem with you, but I reserve the right to make judgements

about people, events, discussions, etc. that I consider worth my time and trouble. I think that is necessary in life. While I try not to be overly judgememtal, and to understand where people are coming from, it is simply not possible when dealing with other people to avoid some judgement. In a complex and crowded society, or even on a message board, people have to make decisions every day, every minute even, on who they will talk to, what they will say, whether to react to something. These are all judgements.

Offering any kind of response to a post require some kind of judgement on whether one agrees or disagrees, wants to add to the discussion, or wants to offer advice.

When a person posts on a public message board, they are inviting discussion, opinions, and yes, even judgement. Fortunately, they can decide whether to accept or reject that judgement also.

[Kanary]

66. sigh........ judging someone else's EMOTIONS

is violent.

In the last analysis, all we have that is truly ours is our emotions. If you must, judge them, but speaking them aloud is NOT PEACEMAKING.

Especially in public.

That should be without question.

Try doing so reading about non-violent communication.

Please.

Kanary

[kayell]

68. Deciding (judging) whether to deal with someone is not violent

and sometimes I make that decision based on how a person presents their emotions. Abusing a person verbally (or in writing) can be violent, but more often is simply clumsiness, or lack of empathy.

Speaking ones opinion is not violent (unless abusive language or tone is used), and if one posts on a public forum, one is going to get other peoples opinions. If a person posts about their emotional reaction to something, they are going to get a responce of some sort. It may be warm fuzzies, it may be sarcasm, it probably will be somewhere in between. But asking people to refrain from making judgements about emotions may be asking something impossible for humans.

As an example, I had a coworker who after 911 went on a hysterically emotional and fear filled rant about foreigners, deporting all of them, and the evils of the "dark races". I made my judgement about them, told them that I didn't want to deal with them on anything other than strictly work related issues and I am still quite satisfied with that judgement.

If someone posts that they are seriously afraid of X that may not be a realistic fear, and posts in such a very hysterical way, that I am worried that they are falling apart, I may offer advice to seek a therapist for the fear. When someone posts something like that on a message board, they are effectively inviting opinions/judgements. The range of opinions offered will probably be wide, and in proportion to the intensity of emotion expressed by the original poster.

Realistically, in this world, most of us are not trained or tempermentaly suited to the type of non-judgemental listening that a therapist can provide, and emotional crisis are better dealt with in that type of setting.

I may read up on that, it sounds interesting, but there also is need for people who post in public to learn how to take what is useful and leave the rest.

Added: Bedtime for me. Have a good night.

[Kanary]

69. All rationalizing aside, judgements against people is not productive

and is damaging.

You can hang on to all your "rights" to judge others, but that doesn't make it "right".

Yes, please do some reading.

If we really want to make a different nation, it has to start with *us*, and our dearly held notions of our "rights" where others are concerned.

Kanary

[Sugarbleus]

58. This whole thread reminds me of a "Positive Confession" revival

like the ones put on by fundies. 'Name it, and claim it'

"Hear no evil, See no evil"?? ......Wow