Did you read about so many DUers who have been raped

[cally]

Poll question: Did you read about so many DUers who have been raped

Here's a recent thread about it We had a similar one a year or so ago that I can't find but I do remember that many here didn't read it or know who was raped. Most of you on this board did not post in either thread. So why not? Did you read it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2297339

[ronnykmarshall]

1. I didn't see it.

But thank you for pointing it out.

[genius]

2. I didn't see it

[VOX]

3. Haven't seen it, but I'll search for it.

thanks.

[DrWeird]

4. Read it.

Didn't post.

[nosmokes]

5. never saw it...

but as a rape victim myself i very likely would have responded.

[democratreformed]

6. I read it and I was fixing to post

about some experience I have had. I haven't had any personally, but have seen it happen to my niece and my sister-in-law. Then, lo and behold, as I was fixing to type it (I started with "My sister married a crazy man"), my sister walked in. So, I haven't got back to it yet.

[Heddi]

7. kick

kickity kick kick

[Fleshdancer]

8. read it. heart still breaking over it.

I cried. story after story after story. I haven't replied yet though. It was on of those situations where I'm staring at a blank reply page with tears streaming down my face and no clue what to possible say. Saying "sorry" just didn't seem good enough.

I don't know what makes me feel worse...the fact that such horrible things happen or the fact that the victims/survivors carry around so much pain and guilt they never deserved.

[cally]

9. I never know what to say in some of these threads

I have tears but I just can't convey my feelings in a post. :hug:

[Heddi]

10. Thank you, Cally, for pointing the thread out

For those who choose not to read the thread that Cally is referring to, let me just explain why I decided to make such a post.

There is alot of stigma attached to the act of rape and of rape victims.

Just the other day, in Seattle, a woman was attacked in her home as she slept. The rapist slashed her screen & crawled in through a window. A local news team was interviewing neighbors and one woman said "Well, I know it's been hot, but when you leave your windows open you gotta expect something like this to happen."

I'm sure her comment was innocent enough, but I screamed at the television NO! NOTHING LIKE THIS IS EVER EXPECTED TO HAPPEN!!! She could have left her front door wide fucking open with a neon sign pointing at her vagina and NO ONE HAS ANY RIGHT TO RAPE HER. None. Under no circumstances.

I think when the topic of rape comes up, the typical stereotype "rape victim" pops into the minds of people who have never had to deal with rape:
Drunk party girl who thinks she said no but isn't sure
Woman walking through bad part of town who should have known better
Careless woman who left her door unlocked and windows open and hey! what can ya do?

I think alot of people don't realize that many of us were children. Children when we were raped or molested. Rape doesn't just happen to those who are of drinking age, or those who are social. It happens in our own houses, by our own family members, our loved ones. At the hand of close friends and casual aquaintances. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, neighbors down the street. strangers.

It happens in streets and alleyways and the backseats of cars and in parking lots. At our houses, at friends houses, in open fields and dark rooms.

We're babies. children. adolescents. young adults. 30-somethings. married. with children. in nursing homes.

We are all around you. Whether you know it or not, whether you realize it or not, you DEFINITELY know someone---male or female---who has been raped, molested, assaulted, harassed, touched, fondled, groped, felt, fingered, kissed against their will.

---
I wrote and re-wrote my post several times before actually posting it. I thought that perhaps I was being too detailed. Talking about things too openly for most people. Being too frank. Using disturbing immages.

But you know what---that's how it is. One big fucking disturbing image.

If people would understand that RAPE isn't just a "no no..i mean yes..i mean no" and then it's over and done with and take a shower and get on with your life. It is a LIFETIME struggle. It's ugly and painful both physically and mentally. It's not pretty. It's not nice. And we can hide behind frilly words and phrases and call rape "sexual battery" and call forced anal rape "sodomy" and use terms that reduce the hurt and reality and forget that there are REAL PEOPLE who are being held down to do things against their will. REAL PEOPLE who are shamed into silence. REAL PEOPLE who have no support system, who had society and the police and the adults and the people who are supposed to protect you just turn thier backs on you again and again and again.

If you haven't read the thread---please do. See that the underlying theme is : LACK OF BEING BELIEVED. LACK OF SUPPORT. LACK OF TRUST. LACK OF JUSTICE.

I don't think there's a single story there where the rapist was sent to jail or ever punished for what they did. These people are still walking around. They're not cured. They may not be acting, but they're not cured.

Read those posts. Read the words of NORMAL people. People that don't "act raped". People that go to work with you, ride the bus with you, fix your meals and wash your clothes. People you have beers with and watch the game with and sleep with.

We are everwhere and we will not be silenced anymore.

[Fleshdancer]

12. Thank your for both your thread and this post

You bring up a very important point to a very difficult subject. The sheer amount of stories that exist for women throughout this country is mind boggling and horrific.

[Kanary]

14. Since you brought it up, and asked people to read it, I'll tell you why I

didn't.

I chose NOT TO for the main reason that DU has so many posters who LOVE to attack people, especialy when they are vulnerable. There is MUCH SEXISM here, and it is smiled at and allowed to continue.

I simply can't handle reading painful life stories and risk coming across some hateful post, right in the middle of it.

It's really too bad that this is the situation at DU, but there it is, and nothing I can do about it.

We all have to do what we have to do to protect ourselves.

This is an honest reply to your plea to read the posts -- DO NOT MISTAKE IT FOR AN INVITATION TO ATTACK. Just some understanding would be nice.

Kanary

[Heddi]

15. Believe it or not, there's no negativity there. None

I mean, our stories are horrible but there's no flames, and I'm very happy for that. I didn't want it to be a flamefest or full of woman hate or man hate or anything like that.

It's actually a very positive thread with lots of love and support flowing through it. Not one comment has been deleted because not a single comment deserves to be deleted. There is support, sympathy, sorrow, tears, love, hugs, friendship.

Please take a look at it. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Heddi]

20. You're reading more into that than I EVER intended

Here's what I wrote re: DU'ers:

As many times as I get disgusted with DU, and DU'ers and humans in general, as much as I log off of this site, sickened by what I read, dismayed at the level of intolerance my fellow humans are capable of, how much evil has permeated the world on every level, I come across a post like this. People like this. People I'd never know if I lived next to you for years and I get more support and kind words by a group of strangers than I ever got from other people closer to me.

---

Here's my explanation:

Many times I get disgusted with DU and DU'ers AND humans in general --- I absolutely mean NOTHING related to Kobe Bryant, and I find it interesting that you think that's the only thing I could be referring to. No. I'm disgusted sometimes by the intolerance and bigotry of all stripes that shows up on this website. I'm sickened by humans in general by the terrible acts they commit that I read about on this site. Bombing, killing, raping, maming other humans, the environment, the law....

as much as I log off this site, sickened by what I read, dismayed at the level of intolerance my fellow humans are capable of, how much evil has permeated the world on every level -- Again, sickened by the depravity of humans we have to share the planet with. The prison photos from Iraq. The lack of accountability from our government. The willful slaughter of millions of people throughout time just for political gain.

---

Yes, you're right. My idea to post was inspired by the Kobe Bryant thread, but not by the Kobe Bryant TRIAL. There are alot of misconceptions about rape, and people who are raped. I wanted us who share this horrible experience to have a voice. To tell our stories.

And I am highly offended that you think you know me so well (which you don't, by the way) to say "If I were a cynical human being I'd suspect you used other people...for the sake of flamebiat". That is so offensive that I can't even begin to convey my feelings.

I would NEVER use my experiences, or anyone elses for the sake of flame bait. If I wanted a flaming conversation about rape, about laws regarding rape, about rapists, I could have done so very easily without sharing a single bit of my experience or asking others to share their experience to make the point.

The point of the thread, as I've stated numerous times, was to give us a voice. And yet, here you are, slyly accusing me of using other's history of rape as well as my own to further a flamefest that was shut down yesterday. That goes beyond the pale.

And what a lousy flame-fest my thread turned out to be, eh? Nothing but support and love and friendship and understanding.

I'm really amused that you read a paragraph where I was relaying my disgust with the HUMAN RACE as having something to do with kobe bryant and that rape issue. VERY amusing.

I was NOT attacking other DU'ers. And it was NOT a direct reference to those DU'ers who stuck up for Kobe Bryant. YOU are the only person who mentioned his name with regards to that thread. Not anyone else.

Look at that thread---where is the hate? Because sometimes having to live on this planet is depressing? Because I'm sick of war and those that stick up for it? Because I"m sick of bigotry and those who stick up for it? Because I'm sick of the depraved mentality of so many people on this planet and those who stick up for them?

Yeah. TOTALLY about Kobe Bryant. :not:

So just wondering---what, if anything, did you glean from that thread? (Besides my oh-so-transparent infatuation with dear ol' Kob?)

[DrWeird]

21. But... it was an attack on other DUers.

"Many times I get disgusted with DU and DU'ers"

And it was negative.

But if it's just a big coincidence that you started all that a day after the big flame up after the Kobe Bryant thread, then I apologize.

[Heddi]

22. Actually I started it a few hours after the kobe thread

I posted on the kobe thread at the end of my work day. On the hour bus ride home I had already decided to make the thread that I made. When I got home I did, and only after I took a shower (some hours later) did I realize the kobe thread had been locked.

As I said above--I would be lying if I said that that thread didn't inspire me to write mine---but there is NOTHING in that thread about Kobe Bryant, his accuser, his trial, the law---NOTHING.

It was a thread about survivors for survivors. And for people who don't think they know someone who was raped but probably do.

I don't understand why you're being hostile towards me and the thread I started. I think it's an extremely positive thing and I've had NUMEROUS DU'ers PM me in the last day and a half saying "I don't have the courage to say this on the thread, but I was raped too." or "I was molested too". There are people sharing their stories for the first time.

No one was forced to post ANYTHING in that thread and it would have sank like a stone if there weren't 50+ other stories on there, or other affirmations of strenght. Those aren't all my posts. They're from other DU'ers too.

I'm sorry that you're focusing on 9 words out of easily a few hundred thousand and saying that those are negative. They're not negative---they're the truth. DU gets frustrating sometimes. By the news I read, and by the responses to the news I read. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many people who didn't find themselves needed to log off or cruise another website lest they say something they regret. It's a fact of messagboards and I'm sorry that you're only focusing on those 9 words as proof of "negativity" and my supposed need for a flame-fest.

I also find it telling that rape can't be mentioned without it being related to, directly or indirectly, KOBE BRYANT.

I am years older than Kobe. I was raped years before he was conceived. Therefore, ergo, my story has NOTHING to do with Kobe just on that fact alone.

Again---you were the first one to mention him. In over 60+ postings on the thread, you are the ONLY one who mentioned Kobe, Negativity, Flamefest, etc etc.

I ask you again: What, if anything, did you glean from that thread?

[DrWeird]

24. I'm not hostile to you or your thread.

I'm only hostile to those few words of yours which were contradictory to the title and, hopefully, the spirit of your thread.

"In over 60+ postings on the thread, you are the ONLY one who mentioned Kobe, Negativity, Flamefest, etc etc." Actually, I never responded to that thread. Only in this one, and only when you said, mistakenly, that it was free of negativity.

What did I glean from that thread? Again, it was a very good thread. I hope it helps people. That said, it would real suck if it had been started in order to win a flamewar.

[Heddi]

25. Jesus Christ. It was NOT STARTED FOR A FLAMEWAR

For Fucks'sake--Look at the thread. The posts. The responses. WHERE IN FUCKS NAME can you say that there was even an ATTEMPT for a flamewar? Where? WHERE?

Don't you think there are a bit better ways, without the personal trauma, to get into a flame war, or to start a flame war? Jesus Christ on a Fucking Stick. IT WAS NOT FOR A FLAMEWAR. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE TALKING ABOUT A GODDAM FLAME WAR.

Besides those 9 words, I beg of you..BEG of you to point to any other words in any of the other posts in that thread that could even be seen as trying to start a flame war. Anything. There was no calling out. Nothing. Fucking People Helping Other Fucking People In Pain is ALLLLL THAT THE FUCKING THREAD IS ABOUT.

[DrWeird]

27. Well, there's this little debate.

Like I said, the only problem I had was those nine words. And how they contradicted with the sentiment you started the thread in.

So say you didn't want a flame war. OK. So why are you shouting?

[Pithlet]

28. I think you're reaching.

I read post 32 in the thread you're talking about, and she is just speaking in general. Who here doesn't get disgusted on DU at times, no matter the subject? I get disgusted frequently about some of the ideas posted here regarding sexism and feminism. I didn't even see the Kobe thread last night. I didn't get "I'm starting this to prove a point" from post 32, but rather "I'm glad we were able to do such a thread without flames"

[Heddi]

29. thank you.

You made my point alot clearer than I did. And you read it just as it was meant to be read. That no matter how much people and actions and the world can disapoint you, you can always find a friend to help you through it, and in that thread, I think alot of friends were made.

sheesh. I didn't know it was such a complex paragraph.

[DrWeird]

30. Sure, people get disgusted with other DUers.

I myself got disgusted last night when other DUer's called posters who supported Kobe Bryant "Liberals for Rapists" or just plain 'rapists." Those kinds of threads pop-up every now and then and unfortunately tend to generate spin-off threads where people try to restart the flames with underhanded methods.

You didn't see the thread, but I had, and given the context I couldn't help but think they were related. Again, if they weren't, then good. I hope they had nothing to do with each other.

[Pithlet]

33. Okay

But that wasn't what Heddi's thread is about. You're bringing your anger from that thread into hers. I think you're letting it color what you read. I honestly didn't get a "I'm out to piss off other DUers" vibe from her comment.

[DrWeird]

34. I'm not angry at all.

I saw a thread with "no hate. no flames. no offense" in the title and what was apparently an attack on other DUers, and what appears (just appears, not saying it was) a continuation of a flame war.

All I'm doing is pointing it out.

[Pithlet]

35. You sound

like that Kobe thread really rattled you. I don't know how you can see an apparent attack on other DUers with such a general statement. Particularly since it was in a paragraph stating how pleased she was that everything remained civil at DU. You've come across as though you think that the opposing viewpoint in the Kobe controversy was roundly and unfairly flamed, and that the thread talking about open discussion of experiences of rape was just another covert attack on that viewpoint, chosing one general statement about DU as proof.

[DrWeird]

37. Rattled? Not at all.

Clearly not as rattled as others.

The OP admits the Kobe Bryant inpired the thread in discussion. The statment about being "disgusted with DU and DUers" was certainly out of place in a thread that, everyone agrees, remained civil up until that point. So the natural question one ask is "who and what is this person disgusted at?" Doesn't seem all that general really, again, in context of the Bryant thread.

[Pithlet]

38. Then I don't understand

Why you did this. It seems to me that the accusation that someone started a thread asking people to bare a highly personal and disturbing event merely to make a point or try to win a flame war, or to attack another group of DUers is an extremely big one to make, and I would think it would require a lot more evidence than one general comment about DU on post 32 of a thread. And I don't know why someone would make such charges, even if they are veiled as yours (If I were a cynical guy...) unless it was a subject that got them pretty steamed. In that case, I might understand where it was coming from, even if I thought it was unfair and wrong. But, your assertion that you aren't has me scratching my head.

You asked her why she's yelling. If someone had falsely accused me of such a thing, you'd bet I'd be hollering, too.

[Kanary]

39. Well, then I'm glad to hear that. I see from what came after that

I was NOT wrong to be very careful.

It's really a shame that so many DUers seem to see this as an opportunity to get their rocks off.

I'm also very sad that all these years later there is still such a need for victims to share their stories in order for many to raise their awareness. This was an issue we were working hard on over 30 years ago, and yet there is still so much misunderstanding and just plain ignorance, even among those who consider themselves "liberal". That is truly depressing.

I'm glad you started the thread, and glad that it has been going well......... I hope that continues.

Kanary

[MissB]

11. I read it

But I'm not interested in posting that particular detail of my personal life on the internet :shrug:

It was her choice to post her story, and it is my choice to not post my story. It is also my choice not to comment on her story or my story within her post.

[Kanary]

13. Exactly. We all have to do what we have to do to get through.

We need to do away with all the "Shoulds".

Kanary

[cally]

19. I'm sorry if you thought I was demanding personal stories

I think I came across that way and it wasn't my intent. I wanted those of us who pretend we don't know rape victims or sexual abuse survivors to wake up to the reality. Many of those we know and love have survived. Again, I apologize.

[Christof]

16. I read it and I posted.

[Commendatori]

18. I read it and didn't.

I can applaud her for having the guts to tell us that part of her life, and I can say that I'd like to see her attacker skinned aline and dunked into a vat of pickle brine. Both would be true, and gross understatements.

However, as I read that story my anger at her mother grew to the point where I almost stopped reading, because I was close to putting my fist through a monitor that I do not own, prefer not to replace, and isn't at fault.

I would love to comment on her mother, but it is neither the time or place - and I'm pretty sure she does not want my opinion on that matter. My opinion on the story itself, mother notwithstanding, is reflected in a lot of other posts there. My opinion on the mother is not printable in newspapers and probably not appropriate anywhere, especially since if my anger at her attacker can be expressed by a figure of 100% of possible rage, my anger at her mother is also 100%.

Jesus fucking Christ, don't get me started.

[kitkatrose]

44. My feelings exactly.

I knew that even if I posted something supportive, I couldn't really contain the anger at her mother and series of assholish ex-boyfriends. And now, I need to calm down...

[MrSlayer]

23. I didn't see it.

[stavka]

26. Not an issue that concerns or interests me.

[Djinn]

40. rape and sexualt assult doesn't concern you?

[stavka]

49. As acts yes - statistically, or as a topic of discussion - not really

[Pithlet]

31. Read but don't respond

It was heartbreaking for me to read them, and I really just didn't know what to say. I don't divulge a whole lot of truly personal things about myself on the internet.

[skygazer]

32. Saw it, didn't read or post in it

I admired the OP's message and ability to tell her story which I started but could not continue with. Perhaps on another day, I could have done more but I am feeling ill today and in my weakened state, it's just too hard to go there. Brings it all back and it's very painful.

There was another thread about hate crimes - it has always seemed to me that rape and domestic abuse are classic examples of hate crimes. The men who commit either are not committing a crime against a woman personally but against women in general. They are saying by their actions that they feel they are better than their victim because of their maleness and so are justified in perpetrating their crimes. Isn't that the definition of a hate crime?

[TahitiNut]

36. I'll comment here.

I'm a rather 'intimidating' male at 6'2" with deep-set eyes, an often intense demeanor, prominent facial features and with strong opinions. After some time working with groups within which such experiences are rather extensive among the women (some of the most courageous people I've ever met), I've become quite aware how my appearance and manner tends to trigger some history-based fears in the women I encounter in public. I sometimes feel like I'm walking through a battlefield of many wounded. It tears at my heart.

I tend to be one who can see positive (even if perverted) motives behind virtually every human behavior. When I studied Abnormal Psych, it was pretty clear that virtually every underlying drive was something I could find, at least to some extent, in myself. (The professors even warned us about this, and not to take it too seriously.)

That said, I'm regretfully and totally without empathy for men who do this. I just cannot find it in myself and (strangely, I know) I've sometimes tended to wonder if it's something that makes me less "male." (In some female minds, it surely does. Thankfully, those aren't the minds I'm interested in meeting.) Even when married, I found myself completely "turned off" if my amorous inclinations weren't reciprocated by my (now ex-)wife. Even the slightest hint of "wake me when it's over" would take the starch right out of my pasta. Not even al dente. Soggy. Same for games even remotely akin to the "take me" facade. (Clearly, many kinds of "kinky" partnering just aren't in my repertoire. If my partner wants "caveman" I'm just not "up" for it. Literally.)

As one who tends to prize his ability to empathize with (and thereby gain some added understanding) most humans, I just cannot comprehend rapists. They seem like some other species to me - not even on the same planet.


Consequently, I've found some area of 'service' ... when I can be that "safe place" for my female friends and acquaintances who've had such experiences, a "safe place" who, due to my otherwise somewhat intimidating appearance, apparently has a therapeutic effect. It's often strange where we can find things for which we can be grateful.

[Kanary]

41. You sound very much, TahitiNut, like a man I met who

became one of the "attackers" in Model Mugging. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's a self-defense seminar for women in which women don't just learn tactics, but actually PRACTICE what they have learned in a real life situation, with a man who plays the part of an attacker while protected by a huge amount of padding. The women literally kick and pummel the guy, which is also helpful to them in dealing with some of their past experiences.

At any rate, I talked with one of the men who do this (it's volunteer -- at least it was at that point, so there are obviously some really GOOD guys in this world.) He told me that he really has a hard time with it, in the stalking he does and things he says before an "attack", and even though he knows it is very helpful to the women, it makes him a wreck, and he has to "decompress" afterwards. He knows intellectually he's doing what is helpful and right to do because so many women have thanked him, but it is such a huge departure from his normal personality that he struggles with it every time.

I would highly recommend "Model Mugging" for any woman, but especially for those who have experienced violence in their own lives. You can attend a graduation to see what it is like. I also recommend it for men, who find out at close range what women go through.

I also appreciated very much what you said at the beginning of your post about finding the same traits inside us all. It's very true, whether we are loooking at an issue such as this, or the "us" vs "them" of Dems and REpubs. We won't really begin to build a different world until we really grasp that.

Thanks for a fine post.

Kanary

[KoKo]

43. Tahiti..thanks for sharing that. But, I think some of this is

"generational." It's hard to discuss the differences in growing up and behavior codes for folks over 50 with those under sometimes. I don't think it would work on DU...at least not what I've from being here and seeing the flame wars over this. There was bad stuff out there, then, there's bad stuff out there now...but you could tell the bad behavior from the appropriate much more easily in your generation, perhaps, than after where the lines blurred.

I probably understand more about what you say than some...but as I said...there are some of us who had a "different code" that is in our brains..which is much different because it was a "different world" of male and female at one time, even though it seemed repressed and was to a great extent, it was a known code of behavior with consequences which were obvious.

Well...I won't get into this anymore..but thanks for expressing your view.. I have blithered out gibberish...because I don't want to get into a discussion of it...but wanted to thank you for your post..and dug myself into a hole...ROFL..sorry.

[KoKo]

42. I didn't read it because I can't handle any more saddness...I understand

the issue, but I know too much about it. I don't like to read here about it. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be here on DU as an issue, and as a female it's important to me. But, I don't seek it out to read here, so I didn't read it.

[meisje]

45. These threads are nothing but flame bait!

[bemildred]

46. I'm a guy, I've never been victimized in this way.

The thread was a chance for those who have to testify.
It seemed to me the right thing to do was listen, not talk.
If it helps, I'd like to encourage more of this, as long as
it's done in the mode of testimony, the truth sets us free.

[sffreeways]

47. I didn't post

specifically because the poster seemed to ask that we not address the issue of men being the perps most of the time. Males are responsible for 86% of the violent crime committed in this country against women and other men. I believe she requested "no man hating or mysoginy". I really don't feel like I can have a discussion about the issue without addressing the cause. So out of respect for her request I decided not to post but I wanted to.

I was going to say:

That I admired her courage and that there were a number of excellent websites by organizations of men that were worth taking a look at. That I had never been sexually assaulted but every single woman and many men I know had been and that it was time to confront it and get right at the root of it.

http://www.stopviolence.com/domviol/menagainst.htm

The resources here explore information about men who are working, both individually and collectively, to reduce the violence of men. The overwhelming majority of violence against women is committed by men. The following resources try to raise awareness in men about the problem's of men's violence - and end their silence about it. Because the vast majority of violence against men is also committed by other men, some of the sites below explore problems with masculinity and how to find ways of 'being a man' without being violent or homophobic.

[The Flaming Red Head]

48. Rape threads are a bad, bad idea

I was sent live rape porn via e-mail for speaking on one once. watch out. they're out there