To: Parents of tweens Subject: Dressing

[Guy Fawkes]

Dear Parents of Tweens,

In the first two days of school, I have seen young women dressed very disturbingly. In fact, I've seen prostitutes in Chicago that dress more conservatively. I saw a young woman, perhaps in 6th grade, with a skin tight shirt on. It covered her like a swim-suit top, revealing plenty of skin. Across the chest, it read "pluck my cherry" and had a picture of cherries on it.

I asked her what she thought it meant... This girl was under the impression that it was referring to fruit.

Walking to my first class of the new year (at noon) I saw some even more alarmingly dressed women. A group of high school freshman, taking lunch before us upperclassmen arrived, were standing at a corner smoking. I felt like I was looking at a playboy photo shoot!

Look, you don't have to tell your kids what their shirts mean, if you don't want to. Just please, PLEASE, don't let them dress like this. I urge you to sit your young women down and explain to them that dressing like that is NOT acceptable.

As long as I'm at it, I'd like to touch on pants. I can not tell you how far down I have seen some young men wearing their pants. Parents, if your kid has his pants at his ankles, please hit him for me.

Sincerely,
Guy Fawkes

[skooooo]

1. No dress codes?

Can't the school do something to prevent disruptive clothing like that?

[Guy Fawkes]

2. They have tried, but to no avail.

I'd think that a school administration this conservative would be better about this, but I guess not. Besides, the school needs the help of parents to stop this sort of thing.

[goddess40]

92. They selectively enforce them or don't enforce them at all

Maybe we should put some pictures on the web of the worst offenders. A note home to the "pluck my cherries" mom might wake mommy up.

edit: When, especially male, teachers do try to send girls down to the office for inappropriate dress they get accused of being perverts for noticing. It keeps some from saying anything because they don't want the hassle - to my way of thinking they don't want the job either.

[genius]

145. There is no correlation between clothes and sex. Adam and Eve were naked

when they were pure and good. It was only after they sinned, ate the fruit, and learned about evil that their evil sides told them to wear clothes. Some time after they started wearing clothes, they started having kids. Having said that, I'm not advocating nudist colonies. Although I understand that at nudist colonies, people respect the privacy and rights of others. You don't hear about rape cases in nudist colonies.

Rapists often use clothing as an excuse to rape. And the talk about dress codes re-enforces the rapists' positions by saying that, if girls don't wear the right clothes, they're inviting rape or sex. Maybe the girls just like the way they look when they wear provocative clothing. Back in the seventies, everyone was wearing halter tops and low cut pants. Most looked good in those clothes and it was no big deal.

As for the "Cherry" comment on the blouse, the manufacturers and stores involved should be put out of business. Clothing with comments like that should only be sold to adults who know what the term means.

[Endangered Specie]

165. Yeah, all you need is some perverted administrator...

taking a measuring stick up to a girls leg and making "careful" measurements... Admins dont care, they like to look just like the rest of us students.

[gollygee]

3. "Pluck my cherry" ??? Where is that OK? (m)

ok my daughter is only 2 years old but that already freaks me out.

Even at her age, you'd be suprised how mature some of the clothes are. Hip huggers, bare midrifs, sassy slogans on tops, etc. She's moving into size 4, which is where you go from toddler clothes to little girl clothes. I'm having a very hard time finding nice stuff for her.

[Guy Fawkes]

4. That is another problem... Someone has to get the stores

to stop carrying this shite!

[greenbriar]

5. as a mother of a tween, it is hard to find decent clothes that don't make

her look like a slut. We actually buy out of mail order many times.



As a teacher, when a girl tries to come dressed like that, she goes right to the office. WE have some ugly-ass clothes donated just for that reason.



a middle school in my district has banned the "goth" look

[Guy Fawkes]

9. As a theater geek, I have known many "goths"

I think there is a big difference between this horrible prostitute look and the 'goth' look. I at least know some goths that are intelligent people.

[leftistagitator]

61. So they banned the black cloths?

Aside from the makup, hair dye, and chains, which schools won't let you wear anyway, that's all that the "goth" look is. And goth is pretty old isn't it? I knew all the parents were freaked out about it when I was in high school, I figured they would have moved on by now to the next sign of moral decay.

[Guy Fawkes]

62. Schools do allow hair dye once you hit HS...

[leftistagitator]

99. Mine didn't...

although that might just have applied to "unnatural" colors. I remember a friend who got into a lot of trouble for dying his hair green. Something about it being a "distraction from learning".

[salin]

135. Great Response!

Make them dress in something SO ugly and SO unflattering - that they will not again make the choice to dress so provactively at school!

[Endangered Specie]

166. Why ban the "Goth" look,

them folks are the last people Id be attracted too, seems to work well at deterring 98% of boys/guys.

[RivetJoint]

172. You get to dress other people's kids?

That doesn't seem right to me.

[Randers]

175. As a teen, my daughter chose

to look for clothes in the women's section because she didn't want super-short shorts, cut super low, etc.

Her idea, not mine.

She doesn't care what the current socially expected looks are.

It's been sort of funny that the daughters of my "conservative", religious, Republican siblings fall for whatever navel piercing, midriff and cleavage revealing trend that comes along.

[MrSandman]

30. People buy them, thet will stock...

:mad:

[knitter4democracy]

31. Me too

My daughter is in 4-5T, and it's getting harder and harder to find clothes that aren't slutty. There are freakin' pedophiles out there! Do they need more of a reason to look? Jeez Louise! I will say, though, that Gymboree is often okay (but totally expensive), some of Lands End is okay, and I'm looking into the Hanna Andersen outlet near me. Skirts that barely cover her butt, tight little tees with horrible things on them ("I'm a tease," said one--in a 4T no less), pants that should only be worn on date nights for non-jail bait women. Ugh!

Yeah, when I taught high school a few years back, one of the worst parts of my job was chaperoning dances. I was constantly working on my students to realize that they shouldn't dress slutty (boys or girls, but I taught at a girls school most of the time I taught) or simulate sex acts in public. I was the mean teacher breaking kids up and enforcing the dress rule. Oh well--I wasn't going to stand there and watch: what would that make me?!

[Guy Fawkes]

34. I helped out at a middle school "rec night" once...

My gd! The things those people call dancing!

[knitter4democracy]

40. It's bad

I had to grab a guy who had a friend help him pin a student of mine between them so they could rub themselves all over her--without her consent, of course. Ultimately, I not only got him kicked out of the dance, but another teacher and I got him banned from dances for the year.

Another time, a gang of boys tried to do that to a fellow teacher of mine. Let's just say that one of them got mildly hurt (she grabbed an arm and twisted the kid to the ground), and several got kicked out.

Seriously, I tell all parents to chaperone at least one dance a year, if they know what's good for their kids. It's so much worse than even when I was in high school twelve years ago.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

65. Amen

I have chaperoned several Middle School dances and I spend almost ALL of the night pulling girls up off the floor (they are flat on the floor on their bellies humping the concrete basically) and reminding them that we are at a middle school dance and not the "Gentlemens Club".

[LibertyLover]

173. Clothing for kids

I'm having a similar problem here in Maryland for my 2 year old. She can still wear 2T and 3T thankfully because what I'm seeing for the slightly older kids I don't want to spend my money on. I'm not suggesting going back to organza, lace and frills, but I don't need to put my barely 2 year old in something that shows her middle - goodness knows she's perfectly capable of lifting her t-shirt up herself to show her belly. I dread to think what it will be like when she's 11 or 12.

[LibertyLover]

176. Clothing for kids

I'm having a similar problem in Maryland. Right now my 2 year old is wearing 2T and 3T and I have been angry at what some of the stores are carrying for children that size. One salesperson, when I complained, agreed with me but said that I would be amazed to see how many parents came in and bought the stuff while complaining that it wasn't chic enough. Thanks, but my toddler doesn't need any encouragement to show her belly (cute though it may be) to the world. I've taken to dressing her in jeans and plain t-shirts bought mail order.

[Warpy]

6. Pubescent girls have always wanted to dress like tarts

Back in the horse and buggy days when I went to school, the skirts were rolled up at the waistband to shorten them, the blouses were opened two buttons farther down than Mom saw, and the red lipstick and heavy eye makeup were whipped out as soon as a girl got into the safety of the school bathroom. Girls are just discovering new sexuality, and they want to advertise it.

I don't like the Britney Spears look, either, but I understand where it's coming from. Yes, parents should probably put their foot down on vulgar slogans on T-shirts or transparent clothing. However, dressing their daughter like a nun when all the other kids are in the slutwear uniform just aint gonna work, any more than it did when I was in school.

Pick your battles carefully, and don't sweat the small stuff like the exposed belly buttons and FM shoes. Do sweat the big stuff like the suburban sex parties working parents aren't supposed to know about. This fashion nadir shall pass.

[cally]

75. Finally, another person who called certain shoes

FM shoes. I was complaining about some shoes my daughter wanted to buy and I told her what I called them when I was a teen. She didn't believe me. Thanks.

[Zookeeper]

121. I've always called them...

"Knock me down and FM pumps." And I won't let my middle-school daughter wear them.

[NashVegas]

158. I Think We May Have Hung Out

you and I.

Hee hee.

[Zookeeper]

160. Hmm, I remember...

You and me and Bat Boy.... :hi:

[genius]

163. Good advice.

[BeHereNow]

7. Consider this...

Who is BUYING this crap?
The "good" x-tians?
I mean really, there must be a consumer base
for this to continue, WHO are they?
The clothing in the stores is marketed by the
very same multinational corporate thugs
funding the bible thumping politicians in this country!
Talk about hypocrisy!
I too, am outraged by this trend.
The good x-tians dressing their kids
like child prostitutes while they fill their
bags with stones to carry out gawd's law
against the rest of us.
SHEESH!
BHN

[Cheswick2.0]

49. you have got to be kidding me

WTF does religion have to do with this? Is there any issue that will not send people around here into two minutes of hate for Christians?

I would say to you that it is doubtful that the kind of Christian you have issues with are ones buying these clothes anymore than any other group, probably less.

[BeHereNow]

86. I am a Christian

And I am damned tired of the hypocrisy of the
x-tains. If so many of them claim ro be x-tians,
then is is rational to ask- then who's having the abortions?
Who's purchasinging the porn? Who's purchasing hooker wear
for their kids? I think you missed my point which was
the numbers don't add up. "They" claim that this is a
"Christian country" and they fall into line behind W because
he is going to return us to morality and yet in every
possible corner of the the market, in which they must constitute
at least a percentage of the buyers, the opposite is true!
I have a feeling there is more than a few of these so called
x-tians sneaking in the back alley entances to adult
book stores, abortion clinics, and dropping dimes for
phone sex and internet porn. They are HYPOCRITS!
BHN

[progressivebydesign]

111. Actually, pornographic addiction is a HUGE Christian issue!

They have special websites and groups for porn-addicted Christians. It's a major problem. See.. it's not normal for people to totally repress their sexuality. Not that you should commit adultery (tho that's another big issue for Christians), or act out every fantasy, but I suppose the repressive, unnatural stance of some Chritian ideologies make for that type of temptation.

Humans are sexual. Always have been. We're all but animals, really.. only we've tried to live in civilized ways.

If you've ever watched the "History of Sex" on the History Channel, you'd understand how the church has always tried to control natural human sexuality. It's gotta come out somewhere...

[LanternWaste]

122. Hmmm

However, don't we as humans repress *many* of our natural instincts depending on the culture we live in?

Since I make a point of not belching in public, does that mean I'm going to have some kind of hand-me-down-Freudian complex/problem and try to act it out in some abnormal or odd manner? Or is repression given only to sex and if so, why not the other instincts?

:silly:

[Atheist-Archon]

141. Heyya BHN! [NT]

[BeHereNow]

149. Well Heyya to you too!

Welcome to DU!
Wanna give me hint as to where I know you from?
:shrug: BHN

[Big Kahuna]

8. When I was a kid, the adults said the same thing.

My grandparents hated the way my parent's dressed, etc..

Face it. You're now officially a "cranky old fart".

on edit:

IMHO: If our society stopped being so puritanical, and became more open about human sexuality like they are in Europe, kids wouldn't have such dangerous and warped ideas about sex in the first place. The way they dress would not be a cause for worry.

[Guy Fawkes]

10. You have to draw the line someplace!

Can you honestly say that some of the things kids are wearing don't bug you?

[moez]

11. My guess is...

Big Kahuna has no kids (especially daughters) that age. It's quite easy to pontificate when you're not faced directly with the issue...

[Big Kahuna]

42. Keep guessing.

I have a daughter (8), and a son (11).

And to tell you the truth, I am an old fart myself. I disapprove of my son's hip-hop music. My daughter thinks she's queen of the universe. I'm sure there's worse to come.

Teenagers WILL escape their parent's watchful eyes, have sex, drink beer, experiment with drugs. It is almost inevitable. Armed with good information, and respect for their own bodies, chances are good they will survive what the world throws at them.

[Guy Fawkes]

45. Tell me, have you ever heard of "rainbow parties"?

It's just one of the many disgusting things young women are doing now. I won't even describe it. Look it up on google, and you should get a pretty good definition.

[Big Kahuna]

50. Ok..

Green/Rainbow party stuff.. Rainbows, angels.. etc. I think you'll have to describe it.

[Guy Fawkes]

53. In a nutshell...

The women put on different colors of lipstic on... (can you see where this is leading?) I'll give you a hint: it involves a lot of young men and oral sex.

[TahitiNut]

64. Lipstick was (re?)INVENTED for exactly that reason.

It was worn by courtesans in France as a 'mark' of their skill and attention. The bored aristocratic 'ladies' of the court adopted the fad and it was soon imitated by many.

[Massacure]

94. This 16 year old hasn't done anything of that.

And a lot of my friends haven't either.

I'm in the suburbs and not inner city, so I can't speak about how worse it gets in there. There aren't a lot of problems at my school though. There is a running joke among teachers, that the pay is less, but the children are a better. ;)

[barackmyworld]

106. that does not occur

I am from the inner city (which the previous poster expressed concern about), and nobody has ever done anything ridiculous like that. Sometimes these rumors are started just to scare parents I think...

[YellowRubberDuckie]

143. Welcome to DU Big Kahuna!!

My best friends' kids are the same age as Big Kahuna's, and they get their clothes at Walmart, and everyone thinks they shop at the mall. They're cute clothes, well priced, and your little tween isn't going to look like a whore.
For Girls: Mary Kate and Ashley have designed clothes to get rid of this problem. And while they sell at walmart(I know you guys hate walmart), I think it's time to suck it up and get your clothes where you know your kids aren't going to look like whores and go to walmart.

Duckie

[Big Kahuna]

16. Not really.

What scares me is what kids are DOING, and their ignorance about sex in general. I see 16 year old girls with a kid in a stroller and another "bun-in-the-oven" on a daily basis. It's sad. They are automatically doomed to a decade, if not a life of poverty.

Do you think teen fashion is the cause of the problem?

[Guy Fawkes]

18. There is something else behing teen sex. That would require another rant..

But I have learned a lot about the topic from my Soc. class last year, along with my own observations of my peers.

[kath]

21. Wait just a minute now, Kahuna -- you're not implying that abstinence

education doesn't work now, are you?!?!

<sarcasm>

[Big Kahuna]

51. No.

That would be treasonous.

[bo44]

116. It's a start. Consider the consequences of letting kids play act adult

sexual behavior without adult guidance. Letting boys and girls display and act out porn fantasies as a sort of teen rite of passage is fucking stupid. If you do not think porn does not play a part then why is it that whenever I play smooth jazz in my class some of my kids tease me about liking porno music. How many times must they be exposed to porn movies before they draw this conclusion? These are the kids laying for your sexy 12 year old at the mall. When you let the cats out the box it's hard to round 'em after junior gets his first blowjob at 13, fathers a kid or is busted for gang rape, or brittany is pregnant, the victim of gang rape or fucked up emotionally because she feels icky about sucking off her boyfriend and does not want to go to school. I for one see and hear about this crud everyday as a teacher in an inner city alternative school. One little girl that passes herself around has tried several times to kill herself. Her mom has one of those sexy ass crack tattoos, several boyfriends herself and does not feel there is anything wrong with her parenting. She's just going through some changes. Good fucking grief.

At least explain the symbolism of wearing hooker clothes and the sexual purpose of tongue studs, nipple rings, and prince albert piercings before you it.

[bread_and_roses]

48. I support you on the impact of a warped

approach to sexuality. What do we expect girls to do when we send them the message that they must be simultaenously chaste AND sex objects?

Not to mention that (perhaps due to environmental factors like hormones and anti-biotics in meat) many girls are beginning puberty in FOURTH GRADE.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. There's a difference between being open about sexuality

and encouraging pre-pubescent and early pubescent kids to dress like streetwalkers.

Left to themselves, without interference from the mass media, kids eight and nine think the opposite sex and displays of affection are yucky. That's perfectly normal for that age. Wearing double entendre slogans that could invite attention from child molesters is definitely NOT okay.

[KitSileya]

89. I'm sorry, but Europe's got the same problems.

At least here in Norway we do. There's been outrage when clothing stores have imported British and US fashions - not so long ago, stores had to withdraw thongs for toddlers. Still, I see the 13, 14-years olds getting colds and pneumonia because they insist on wearing midriff-baring fashions in arctic latitudes. And this is in Scandinavia, famous for its open attitudes towards sex. The difference is that in socialdemocratic Norway, people actually manage to fight the stores because our government hasn't become completely corporatized yet.

KitSileya

[Only Me]

12. I really applaud this post. This is really aproblem.

I am not a parent that ever really hindered expression in dress.
However, I have rules that have always been out there front and center. They know what I will allow and if unsure they ask.
I have always told my teens don't dress in away that makes you loose respect for yourself. If you want to be respected by other people you have to first respect yourself and show that you do. No one respects anyone that doesn't take some pride in themselves, whether it is clean clothes, morals, grades, personality, ethics, creativity, etc.,. I have told my kids, if you want black and yellow hair, fine, I have no problem with that...If you want pants that hang down your back side or i can see skin I got a problem with that. If they drag the ground I will cut them off. If there is a hole in an inappropriate place I will patch it up. If want to wear it and I don't approve, save it til you move out, you can wear it most any time then.. This has always worked at my house. :D

[bread_and_roses]

41. Yes, and I know parents just like you

for whom the same sort of parenting not only did not work, but back-fired. Parents with good values themselves who worked hard to instill those values in their children, parents with good parenting skills who were loving and firm and did all the right things.

I am happy this is working for you; it doesn't work for everyone. The culture is very powerful, some kids - no matter how good their parenting - more vulnerable to it than others.

[Only Me]

55. While I understand your point... I have no plan to back fire. I agree

that some kids are imparticularly vulnerable. I grew up in the 60's as the only white kid, besides two brothers, in my whole neighborhood. During a time of great racial and economic tension.
I remeber kids that didn't like me because of my color, not because of what I wore. I had two girls that cut my hair off on the school bus because it was blonde. My skin reminded them of oppression. That was a little harder to deal with than just getting different clothes so I could fit in. But the friends I made, stuck by me come what may. And to this day, they were probably some of the strongest I have ever had. I knew people that raised kids in seriously bad situations that you would never have had thought would grown up muchless move up and have families and lives of their own.
The point of all this is...people have it tough all over the world.
And 'just because other people do it', will never be a good enough reason to debase who you are. If you don't have personal limits on what you will or will not do, wear or say, there is no amount of trying to fit that will ever give you what you really need.
SELF respect.

[bread_and_roses]

60. Of course

I quarrel with neither your stance nor your parenting, and in fact applaud you. My only point is that children are different, that good parenting doesn't always "take" and that we seriously underestimate the power of "peer pressure." Something that I notice most adults are not too good at resisting, while expecting un-formed personalities to stand fast against.

People are different, including people who are children - and it isn't only parenting that makes them so.

[Nikia]

13. We had a pretty strict dress code at my school

It was a public school in an area where about 90% of people belonged to churches and the churches tended to be more conservative as far as conduct for their members. Most of the senior teachers, administration, and school board were members of these churches. Sometimes things came close as far as separation of church and state, but in the case of the dress code, I am glad of their prudish attitudes.
Some rules were:
1. Shirts must cover the stomach completely.
2. No sleeveless shirts.
3. Undergarments must be covered completely.
4. Clothing must not advertise or promote drugs, alcohol, smoking, sex, or diabolic lifestyles (whatever that means)
5. Shorts and skirts must be no shorter than three inches above the knee.
6. No hats or bandanas are to be worn in school.
7. No "gangwear"
Students were sent home, asked to turn their shirts inside out, or given one of the principals shirts if they violated the dress code. The only rule that I thought was unfair was the one regarding shorts. Three inches above the knee is rather long for shorts, but at least we could wear them all year long.

[Guy Fawkes]

14. We have the same rules... I wonder why so many students don't get

in trouble...

[Nikia]

28. At our school, it was actively enforced

There were two teachers and the principal who stood out in the hall as students arrived checking for violators. It did seem a little gestapoish but it worked.

[Massacure]

95. These are similar to the rules at my highschool right now.

Except the no sleeveless shirt rule is Two-inch strap, and there is no 3 inch above the knee rule.

[LizW]

15. Where is this?

It sounds like your school has some serious problems. If freshman girls are allowed to congregate and smoke during lunch, and a sixth grader is not sent home immediately for wearing that shirt, someone isn't doing his/her job.

Now, believe me, I have a middle schooler, and I know how hard it is. Kids are sneaky. I know some girls who sneaked off during an out of town field trip and changed into short shorts (the kind where the butt cheeks are hanging out, clearly visible) TWICE after being told by chaperones that they couldn't wear them. They only quit when the band director supported the chaperones and said, "Look, I will call your parents to drive here and take you home if you don't cut it out."

There is a fairly strict dress code in my kids' school. It takes parents and school officials ganging up on the kids to keep them from dressing like tramps. It sounds mean, but it has to be done to avert hormone-induced chaos.

[Guy Fawkes]

17. The school police officer had not yet arrived to break up the smokers...

it tends to take him a few minutes.

Not being in the middle school, I do not know if the 6th grader was sent home. Having gone to that school, I bet she was. A few of the teachers there are extremely conservative.

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. Thank G-d I have a son.

:7 We have a dress code. No tummy can be shown, skirts have to be a certain length, except I did see an AWFULLY short one yesterday (barely covered her behind), no bra straps showing, no see-through blouses unless covered properly underneath, the boys have to wear a belt to keep their pants/shorts at the waste, no tank tops and no bad graphics on t-shirts. They get 3 warnings for improper attire and then sent home.

I grew up in the 60's and 70's so, I have an easy come, easy go attitude when it comes to clothing. My father use to have a STROKE every time I wore a mini skirt...the shorter the better, in MY eyes. :eyes: I won't bore you with the other stuff I use to wear. Lets just say it was "interesting." ;) Anyway, there's a time and place for certain things. Some clothing that I let my son wear outside of school he could not wear AT school. Just like there's proper attire for certain restaurants. THAT is where parents need to lead. It's the parents responsibility to teach them etiquette, but sometimes I think that WORD is not even part of the english language anymore. :hi:

[bread_and_roses]

20. My guess is that the sixth grader was lying

when she told you she thought "it was referring to fruit. Girls in sixth grade are pretty savvy. Maybe the only answer is reasonable dress codes in school - which can include no slogans/sayings on clothing.

The stuff is popular and parents are obviusly buying it for their young children; some kids will follow "hold-out" parents direction without becoming social outcasts or engaging in undue rebellion; others will sneak and act-out or genuinely suffer from ostracism and ridicule - even some who've had good parenting. Kids are not totally a reflection of their parent's values or parenting skills even by this age - peers and the culture at large are awful powerful.

[Guy Fawkes]

22. True to a point, but parents socialize you from a very early age...

and have a big part in this.

[bread_and_roses]

57. And kids start hearing "sex talk" in Kindergarden

if they ride the bus or are on the playground with older kids - even older grade-schoolers. Have you read Judith Rich Harris's "The Nurture Assumption"? I am not married to this author's theories, nor do I dispute the enormous influence of parents (in fact, I think that good parenting in the pre-school, and particularly the first three years is absolutely critical to children having half a chance), but there is food for thought there.

Parents ARE vastly important, but I think we sometimes over-estimate the ability of parents to counter the culture at large.

[progressivebydesign]

112. My 8th grader wouldn't know what it means...

Seriously. We talk about everything, and I can gauge what she knows. She likes the shirts with cherries, because they are cute and retro, to her. I'd never let her buy one, of course, and I'm not ready to explain that whole mentality yet.

She asked me to purchase a song for her online, for her MP3 player. I recognized all the songs, except a few. I found the lyrics online of the few, and 2 were okay, 1 was... OMG! homophobic, sexual to the point of nauseating, insulting to girls, etc. When I asked her to come over and peek at the lyrics, she read down one paragraph, turned white as a ghost and said, "I don't WANT that one!". She had no idea... it was played on a local station later in the evening, and some of the words had been bleeped.

There is a dangerous assumption in the country that jr. high girls are sexual, or seasoned, or something. It's not the case for the majority of girls. The movie, "13" may have reflected one GROUP of girls, but it is not the majority. But.. once again, the corporate powers have decided that it is in THEIR best interest to sexualize them at an early age, to sell them things.

My parents had no problem with how we dressed in jr. high and high school. We didn't dress particularly slutty then. Except for the heavy makeup and padded bras, we wore the same exact thing that is being sold now. Hip huggers, t-shirts, ponchos, mimi-skirts, etc. But the schools all had dress codes then, now only some do.

[Cleita]

23. Maybe this is a good argument for school uniforms.

I went to Catholic school. We did what we could to tart up the old navy blue gunny sacks, making them as tight and short as we dared, before the nuns would send a note home to our parents, but there was something about the uniform that caused us to not to dwell so much on clothes and appearances. Also, this way administration can dictate the look they want.

[Guy Fawkes]

25. I still don't like the idea of school uniforms...

the conformity of it depresses me, but then again, you may be right.

[Cleita]

36. Well, it's only conformity in school, not elsewhere.

I actually started to like wearing a uniform on the job, like waitressing or working in medical offices. My friend who worked for the airlines also began to like wearing a uniform. You only need to have two or three of them at a time, so a large chunk of your salary isn't going into clothes you wouldn't wear anywhere but work and you can buy what you like for your personal life.

[Nikia]

88. I wear a uniform at work

Sometimes I wish that I could wear my own clothes at work, but really it makes things much easier. If I got a "professional" job, I would probably have to spend a couple hundred dollars on clothes and think more about my image. A uniform makes it easier. I think that it could be good for students too. School is for learning, not worrying about who is weraing what.

[knitter4democracy]

38. I never thought I would, but I like uniforms now

I taught in Catholic high schools for three years, and uniforms work. First, they siphon off a lot of the kids' energy for fighting the system. I would rather argue with a student about a uniform than about anything else any day. Secondly, they do take the pressure off everyone to have the entire "right" look. It's not just that you have to have the right jeans or shoes anymore but the entire right ensemble--which is too expensive for most kids, in all honesty. Thirdly, it really seems to help with school spirit and unity. It's hard to tell who's in which clique or group when they all dress the same.

I was a public school kid and argued against uniforms in all my education classes in college, but when I saw them in action, I had to change my mind. At the girls' school where I taught, the girls would roll out of bed, shower, throw on the uniform (clean or not, who cares?), put their hair back, and run to school. Even at the co-ed school where I taught, the kids spent so much less time on getting ready for school (I asked) or worrying about how they looked. That's a good lesson for life.

[kayell]

39. I used to hate the idea of uniforms, but

I've seen the way that some kids the same age as my five year-old granddaughter are dressed. Tramp clothes for kindergarteners! And the parents think it's "cute".

My daughter started work at a new school this year, and C will be going there. They require uniforms - khaki or navy pants, shorts or skirts, navy or gray polos or t-shirts (Florida). Drab, but it stops a lot of problems, including the competition over who has the coolest clothes (or whatever the term is now. Now I really do feel like a granny). And my daughter says that it is really nice to have so little thought involved in the getting dressed process in the morning.

So while I have a automatic reaction against the conformity of it, maybe it will actually reduce the kind of teen (and younger now) pressure to have the latest thing - just another form of conformity.

I long since started basically dressing myself in a "uniform" just to make my life and shopping simpler. Khakis and a camp shirt (in a much wider array of colors LOL) in the summer. Jeans, turtleneck and a sweater in the winter. Easy, simple, saves lots of money.

[Nordic]

24. It's very disturbing what they're selling in shopping malls

I saw a shirt, very tight, being sold to young girls (tweens) with "Me Love you Long Time" on the front of it.

My WIFE didn't know what that meant.

Many girls don't know what stuff means, but guys know.

I have an eight year old daughter, and I will burn anything like that she tries to wear.

She is utterly clueless about all of this stuff. She just wants whatever she sees Hillary Duff or Lindsay Lohan wearing.

Oh, and the sweatpants with "Juicy" across the back? Good God, I had to explain that to my wife, too.

Anything with words on the ass are saying "look at my ass". And guys will look at their ass.

If anybody has to know what the notion of a "juicy ass" means are just a little naive.

It's weird because my wife isn't naive at ALL. Just female I guess.

And to say a sixth grade girl has ANY idea that what she's wearing is provocative in a sexual sense is pretty offensive.

[kitkatrose]

101. Uhhhh, IIRC,

that's a lyric from 2 Live Crew's song "Me So Horny". Florida tried to label it obscene, I believe.

[TransitJohn]

103. Isn't it from Apocalypse Now?

When they first get oversees and the hooker approaches them?

[JPJones]

108. Full Metal Jacket n/t

[TransitJohn]

118. Doh!! (nm)

No message.

[TransitJohn]

102. I'm with you

I have an eight year old daughter, and I will burn anything like that she tries to wear. She is utterly clueless about all of this stuff. She just wants whatever she sees Hillary Duff or Lindsay Lohan wearing.

I'm with you. That's exactly how my 8 year old daughter wants to dress. If it gets any more "advanced" than that, I've got it all figured out. She's grounded from puberty. Think it'll work?

[Ravenseye]

26. My Plan

for my daughter who is going to be born within a month is to just not let her out of the house until she's 30.

That or I'm considering the good ole fashioned chastity belt.

Or dressing her in boys clothes if need be. Pants and skirts and dresses, no shorts, no short skirts....I know it's hard to find, at least I've heard it is, but I know it's possible. My niece is a tween and she dresses normal...t shirts jeans, etc...nothing terrible. So it's gotta be possible.

[Taverner]

27. Call me crazy but this is the symptom, not the problem

As long as we allow the media unfettered access to our children through marketing on television, this will happen.

Cut the weed out at the root, not prune it on top.

[Guy Fawkes]

29. Very little media influences this sort of thing. Perhaps we should just

teach people how to block out MTV.

[Taverner]

32. Not just the media...but they are culpable

MTV...all the tween based shows...in addition to guerilla product placement (that's where corporations place products in real life the way they do in movies.)

Combine that with the way sexuality is sold as a product in all of our media, and you have the root causes.

[knitter4democracy]

43. This may be a biased survery, but . . .

My college chaplain, for his doctoral thesis, looked at teen sexuality. He did this massive survery, and the only thing he found to have any correlation at all with teens having sex was MTV in the home. Church attendance had zero effect (duh!), school grades, nothing. If they had cable and watched MTV, there were more likely to have sex at an early age.

Makes you think. We don't have cable, and the last time I saw MTV (at my in-laws who think we live in the stone-age), I seriously thought it was a porn channel not blocked by mistake. My teenaged SIL quickly corrected me, but I couldn't really tell the difference between what I was seeing and soft-core porn.

[Taverner]

47. Oh I definitely don't think we're having more or less sex

But sexuality has changed from being relationship based to object based. It always was to some extent, but today the changeover in our minds is tenfold.

What does this mean? Eating disorders, body image issues, obesity, depression.

[kayell]

44. "sexuality is sold as a product in all of our media"

This is a big part of the problem. Our culture has a very twisted attitude towards sexuality - both demonizing honest sexuality and caring, while also using the tawdriest clothes and sexual innuendo to market anything from toothpaste to beer to shampoo. And a lot of it is also blatantly demeaning to women.

[progressivebydesign]

113. Perhaps my 12 year old is such a gem because we don't watch tv.

The only thing she watches, if ever, is Food Network, Animal Planet, and HGTV. The tv is rarely on here.. maybe 2 hours a week. And she's the dream child, easy going, intelligent, articulate, mannered, and reasonable. She's in 8th grade and is making honor roll, she's doing sports, girl scouts, and volunteers with us.

Turning off the tv is the greatest gift you can give your kid. They are not missing out on anything.. pick and choose the stations or shows if you'd like. Passive entertainment is the worst for kids.

[TrustingDog]

33. everywhere you turn, it seems like there is a deliberate...

agenda to move us toward the lowest common denominator. As long as we Eat, Eat shit like McShit and Bushit and take Viagra and partake in the pornography of children, we are right on track...

and some call us free while screaming how uncivilized others are. everything is ack basswards lately.

[otohara]

35. My Son & The Pants Thing

Gawd I hate it - Maybe they consider it sexy to show their boxers - some of the girls write in his year book that he wears the "cutiest" boxers. Do they know I buy them?

What I dont understand is why he feels the need to walk around the house with the gym pants pulled half-way down his ass. I can't help but laugh and shake my head.

Some hope on the horizon - now that he's a senior and applying at these sheshe private colleges, he's suddenly switched to wearing normal khakis shorts (no more cargo) and he likes polo khakis and isn't pulling them down.

[Guy Fawkes]

37. I always enjoyed my Cargo pants... tons of places to put my computer gear

I'm glad to hear that your son is wearing his pants at his waist now, but I'm sorry it took so long.

[bobbieinok]

104. is it true that this 'pants style' is what sex victims in prisons wear????

I've heard this from several sources.

[lazarus]

167. No

the style started because prison clothes are always too big, so guys who got out of prison were wearing really baggy pants. People thought that was cool, and started copying the look.

[RazzleCat]

136. Them Hanging Pants on the Boys

Well my kid does not do the boxers hanging out thing, nor due his friends when they come over (well only once). When any of the boys come to my house with droopy drawers, I give wedgies to em, give a big smile and say something like, hey just ensuring your pants don't fall down, would'nt want that now would we? So no more hanging pants. (fyi, the kid tells his friends watch out for my mom, she will give you a huge wedgie if you dress like that)

[neebob]

46. Parent of pants-around-the-ankles here

Why does what other people wear bother you so much? Gosh, there are so many things in the world that are worth your time and emotional energy. I let my son wear what he wants because (a) it's just clothing and (b) I was traumatized by a king-boss-man-fashion-police dad I could rarely walk past without setting off that annoying loud buzzer. And I have a son who doesn't go hide in his room when I get home. If he doesn't mind others seeing his boxers, why should I? It's the fashion.

Yeah, the girls' fashion is way too sexy. I'm less concerned with how they dress than why they dress that way (i.e., because the people getting rich off of them and the boys are objectifying them). I like to see teenage girls who don't have to dread walking past their parents, whatever they're wearing.

[barackmyworld]

52. it's getting them earlier and earlier...

As a 19-year old female, I think I can speak about some of this. I feel VERY lucky that when I was in grade school, I wasn't concerned about my appearance. I wore leggings and my brother's hand-me-down turtleneck shirts and sneakers. It is absolutely mind-boggling how in such a SHORT period of time, the standard for when girls should be dressing "cute" or "sexy" has gone from about 15 (high school is when I saw it beginning) to 10 or younger. It absolutely disgusted me last year when I was at a large mall in the suburbs of chicago and I saw a pint-sized hoe store. They had tight pleather pants, tube tops, and a huge assortment of makeup aimed at girls 5 and up!! There were girls in there getting glittery make up just like you would see old women getting it at Macys.

Now I think that people should be able to wear what they want to wear. I'm concerned that a lot of girls feel FORCED into it because of the media and other sources. Now that there are pop stars and movie stars in their early teens, there's a strong desire to emulate them. I don't think we had young singing stars as I was growing up in the 90s, not female at least until britney.

Is there anything that can be done about it??

[Nevernose]

54. Maher on hookers; I can't buy my kid any decent lothes

I can no longer buy shorts for my daughter. This summer and last, every pair I saw in every store I went to was waaayyy too short. Some of the shorts marketed for eight year old girls covered less than a bikini bottom.

And when young women were wearing shorts with words on the ass, I thought it was pretty cheap and tawdry, a not-so-subtle way of saying "look at my ass." (I don't think I'm being a pervert here, why else do you want someone to read your butt?) But now even many of the clothes for little kids have words on the ass.

In the words of Bill Maher: You know who I feel sorry for? Whores. What are the hookers supposed to wear these days to advertise, when all the girls look like whores?

[LizW]

59. I buy decent-length shorts from

Land's End (and Sears has started selling Land's End). Problem is, the young girls just won't wear them even if you can get them. They don't want to look out of fashion, and right now the fashion is micro-short.

It's a good thing cropped and capri pants are in style. At least they can wear those and not swelter quite so much.

As a (ahem) woman of a certain age, I'll personally be SO glad when the low riding pants go out of style. I HATE having to worry that I can't bend over without showing skin or underwear. I lived through this hideous fashion once already. Must I be subjected to it again?

[progressivebydesign]

114. No pants with words on the ass, here!

We discussed that with my jr. high daughter when they came out. She agrees that it sends a bad message.. she thinks it's "look at my ass", too! And.. she knows that the girls, whether them mean to or not, are attracting sexual attention by wearing those.

Talking with your kids makes all the difference. I think, because we rarely have the tv on, that we discuss stuff more. In the car is the best place to have those conversations.. you see a girl in an outfit and you ask your kid what she thinks about it, and discuss why it would or would not be appropriate for her, or for school, or whatever.

Whenever her friends come over they remark that our house is so relaxed, and quiet, and we never yell... oh and that we talk with each other a lot. They like it!!

[onebigbadwulf]

56. Damn, I wish I went to your highschool.

Compared to the alternative - skirts that go below the knee, thick sweaters, etc... your high school is heaven.

Why complain? Enjoy it while you can still see it!

[Guy Fawkes]

58. You, sir, disgust me.

[neebob]

69. Aw, c'mon

What's so disgusting about what he said? You're a high school student, right? He was just suggesting that you loosen up. I'll second that. Seriously - what problem are these disturbingly dressed girls causing for you personally?

[Guy Fawkes]

70. I am a member of society. This is society's problem

Just because it isn't my child doesn't mean I don't care that some pedophile is getting his jollies because of how these people dress.

[neebob]

74. OK, I agree it's a societal problem

but you're telling people to hit their kids for low pants. I'm sure you don't mean that literally, but it sounds a little harsh. If you were my son, I'd be concerned and have a talk about why you're so riled up about this. It's good that you're concerned about pedophilia, but you know what? It ain't the clothes. And there's this other thing called personal freedom.

[Guy Fawkes]

77. The hitting was sarcasm...

And yes, I know what personal freedoms are. I'm not saying we should make such clothes illegal. The government has nothing to do with this, and they have helped if anything.

And if you saw people dressed some of the ways I have, you too would be concerned.

[Djinn]

159. I think you need to look into paedophilia a bit more

don't get me wrong I hate seeing "adult" clothes on little kids (by that I mean under 15) but mainly because it looks bloody stupid - I don't know how "new" this is I remember being surprised at it's prevalence in the UK nearly ten ago (it's too cold for crop tops there for a start) I think it was a Spice Girls influence.

That said perv's don't get excited because an 8 year old girl has "pluck my cherries" (sad slogan on anyone of any age!) on her shirt they get excited by an 8 year old full stop - in fact they're more likely to be turned on by the innocent looking one in curls and a big flowery pink frock.

I'm also a little disturbed by the equation of how one dresses to how one should be respected by men adn the wider community - not a connection I'd neccesarily want to make to a kid either. Might just be me but until there is a male equivalent to the words "slut" and "whore" I will be uncomfortable with their use.

[JanMichael]

63. You either forgot the < /sarc > or you're about, hmmm, 12 years old?

Or, I hate to say it, a vulgar "teen to 30" twit.

[onebigbadwulf]

67. I'd expect this kind of thread at free republic not at DU

I'm 23 and I really don't care what anyone wears. What's the big deal?

If someone wants to go to school in a bikini so be it.

[Guy Fawkes]

68. You don't care that a 6th grader is sending a "come take me home" message

to pedophiles?

[DrWeird]

71. Yes, you can never be to careful. That's why I advocate uniforms

They should be wearing these things. You know, for their own protection. Can't have pedophiles chasing after them.

When I was a kid there was a girl in school who like to dress up in tight shirts and mini skirts. She was a nice girl. But everybody treated her like a slut. It really hurt her self-esteem. Really, I wish people would get passed how other people choose to dress themselves.

As for pedophiles, most child molestation is caused by family members. Fathers, brothers, uncles, etc. They aren't going to care about how a girl dresses. This whole "dress like a slut, you're going to get raped" logic is the same kind the Taliban uses, and the same kind of logic that goes into the blame the victim argument.

[Easy]

134. I agree 100%

Honestly, the amount of conservatism in this thread is frightening.

Let them wear what they want, for heaven's sake!

By the way, the mentioning of pedophiles (or child porn, terrorism and nazis) in a discussion is usually a confession that you don't have any real arguments and want to appeal only on emotions.

[Djinn]

161. thanks DrWeird

how someone dresses is irrelevant to rapists and the prevalence of the (undeniably sexist) words "slut" and "whore" here is disturbing.

[onebigbadwulf]

85. I think you're over-reacting

and over-exaggerating.

Do I think it's appropriate? No.
But it is any of my business? Not really.

And what do pedophiles have to do with anything?

[jonnyblitz]

98. I thought the same thing. Sounds like prissy right-wing whining.

[DrWeird]

66. Age old problem.

Adults have always been complaining about "how kids are dressing these days."

Kids have always been trying to piss off adults, and I see they're still doing a good job at it.

Teenagers are interested in sex. Teenagers think sex jokes are funny. Teenagers think sex jokes on T-shirts are the funniest fucking thing in the universe. So now it's "pluck my cherry." When I was in high school it was "Big Johnson" T-shirts. Same difference.

[Djinn]

162. I got an education from my grandmother before she died

but after she was old enough not to give a stuff anymore what people thought of her (although she always had a bit of that attitude to be honest) she told me all about the stuff that went on in her days as a teenager and it wasn't any different to my teen years or now, ie almost everyone was interested in sex - most people weren't actually having it but some were. People see all the tabloid crap about teen sex and the reality is most teenagers aren't screwing and bugger all has changed since we were all young.

[walldude]

72. Maybe instead of

pissing on the media, and the stores that sell this crap we should be pissing on the parent who bought their 6th grader a shirt that says "pluck my cherry" and let them wear it to school.
School uniforms, now thats a good idea, lets make every one of our little robots look exactly the same. Make them talk the same, act the same, hell lets dye their skin so they all have the same skin color too. Then they can all be considered patriots.
Sorry but this parent watches what his children watch, what games they play, who they play with, what they wear, and what they are learning in school. I keep loose reigns on their indivudality and tight reigns on their values. Respect, honesty, integrity, humanity and humility.

We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teacher leave those kids alone...
All in all your just another brick in the wall...

[knitter4democracy]

91. Now wait.

I used to think that about uniforms too, but that just wasn't what I saw happening in the classroom. I taught in public schools in college (went to one myself) and taught in Catholic schools professionally (only jobs I could find in Cleveland with no connections). In the Catholic schools with uniforms, my students were rarely scared to voice an opinion, even if it was against the entire class, I had serious non-conformists who figured out how to still be themselves within the limits of the dress code, and I would say that each kid did a good job of being an individual. In my senior English classes and the year I taught Sophs, I hardly ever had to encourage a student to think for herself or use her own real voice.

I know that all sounds counterintuitive, but that's what I saw in the trenches. I agree that parents are the first line, but a lot of crap happens without a parent's knowledge. If you raise your kids with integrity, respect, honesty, humanity, and humility as your main goals, you're doing great--but still keep a close watch. You wouldn't believe what the kids told me about parties, dating, and even hanging out at the mall.

[walldude]

120. Well mine are only 6, 8, and 10

so this hasn't been a problem yet. I guess I'll have to wait and see.. Thanks for the view from the "trenches" and thanks for being a teacher. It's a tough gig :toast:

[Cats Against Frist]

117. Shunning and humiliation are actually an excellent solutions to this

No government interference, right? You're not interfering with anyone's right, if you take the parent to task, in public. Just remember, it's not harrassment, until they say the words "go away and don't speak to me." :)

I kind of like this idea.

[juslikagrzly]

76. This is a problem

and this is coming straight from a pretty damn liberal set of parents--midforties with a 9 year old boy and an 8 year old girl. Our daughter is large for her age, tall and stout. I HAVE to buy clothes in the 12-14, 14-16 size range, and it's hell keeping her looking like a little kid. We are very open with our children regarding sex (questions answered honestly, etc.) but WHY can't they look like kids WHILE they are still kids. I've talked with many other liked minded parents about this. It's a problem! She needs play clothes dammit, not "look at me" clothes! She'll get that crap soon enough.

[Zookeeper]

123. When my daughter was eight...

she was wearing a lot of her ten year old brother's hand-me-downs. I found it very difficult to find nice, sturdy clothes for her that would allow her run, jump, climb and just generally be an active kid.

Now, at twelve, she is more interested in looking "attractive," but so far isn't interested in showing a lot of skin. Her role model is more Avril Lavigne than Britney Spears.

Have you checked out the boy's department? Sometimes you can find fairly gender neutral shirt and pants, unlike the girl's department.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

78. Don't know quite where to jump in but

the "media" has influenced clothing (teen or otherwise) for a long time. Back in my HS days we wanted to dress like Sandra Dee. Heck, I'm still ticked that my mom wouldn't buy me a mink coat. :evilgrin: But I think what a lot of parents are feeling is that the current media culture dress code has just diviated too much from their values and from common sense.

[stavka]

79. Kids and wearing knickers! Balderdash!

Tough problem...basically boils down to "Parents - do your fucking job!"

[cally]

80. The cherry shirt is a dubplicate of one that I flipped out

over several years ago. My then 13 year old daughter had gone shopping with a friend. I picked them up and the friend showed me her new shirt...the cherry shirt. My mouth dropped open and I just had a blunt talk with both of them and told my daughter that sho couldn't wear such a shirt. Four years later, neither of my teen girls will wear anything that has any writing on it unless they added it themselves. They refuse to buy anything with the stupid phrases or brand names. Shapping is a chore, but it's worth it.

I agree with you Guy. Much of this clothing is disgusting on young girls.

[AlFrankenFan]

81. Being a freshman in high school

I know exactly what you mean. There are not only "slutty" looking shirts with slogans that imply something sexual on them, but skirts that are so short you wonder if it was even meant to be a skirt. Lots of boys wear their pants so far down they are wrapped around their ankles. And then the tight clothing...*shudder*. As for paying attention the dress code, they really don't give a damn. Which is a shame how a lot of kids in my generation aren't going to really mature past that.
As for me I wear political shirts and baggy pants or jeans that are at the appropriate level. It'd be nice if kids would at least think about where their dignity has gone. :eyes:

[sadiesworld]

82. I always laugh when I hear the "uniforms stifle individuality" tripe.

Aside from the fact that kids can wear other outfits at night and on weekends, where is the originality in a kid going to the mall and buying an overpriced knockoff of something they saw on a ballplayer or teen pop idol the month before?

[Sugarbleus]

84. My student goes to a school out here in the west where the

paranoia is on gang style clothing and "colors". Of course it depends on whose wearing those colors too. :eyes: If you are white, you can wear the red, if you are mexican or black you cannot wear red or other specific colors.

My student told me just the other day how his classmate came to school with a nice button down shirt, plaid with gray and red stripes and check...the teacher made him take it off. The black student was wearing all blue (another taboo color) but he was allowed to wear his clothing--the reason arbitrarily given was that the boy was very tall and hard to fit for clothing :eyes:

My kid told me that a school, similar to his, in another town down the road had switched to standard school issue colors: black, white, or yellow (with school logo). My student said he could go for that but his school is too lazy to put that into place. Go figure.

I don't have any problem with younger students doing their thing in terms of baggy pants and tinted hair. I do think that very young girls should be wearing hooker clothing though. I told my boy that he was maturing now and needed to bring his pants up. He wasn't teeny bopper any more and needed to grow into a man ...buy a belt and/or buy pants that grip yer waist a bit tighter. :D He was okay with that.

[barackmyworld]

105. not everybody does that

I sew a lot of clothing, and I screenprint a lot of t-shirts and designs on pants. In high school, being able to wear clothes I made was an expression of my interests and personality. I recognize that I am only one example, but not all teens wear clothes to "look like everyone else."

[LanternWaste]

107. I'm of the same opinion

I'm of the same opinion. Seems to me that if the only way a person knows how to express their individuality is through clothing purchases or other physical advertisements, that person lacks quite a bit of imagination (and possible self-esteem, too).

:)

[barackmyworld]

127. so how do you propose kids express themselves in school?

what are some school-approved ways to express themselves, inside school hours?

[Ron Green]

128. Ideally, in English (or another language), with music, poetry,

science projects, sports or essays on various topics. If the school admin. decides to remove choice of clothing as a way to get attention and express oneself, then corporate branding of identities is reduced. Students have to look beneath the exterior to figure out who their friends are, and who they themselves are. And, as has been pointed out, they've still got the evenings and weekends.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

132. What about art?

Clothing is art.

[Ron Green]

150. Yes, clothing is art. But there are many times and places other than the

school environment where kids can try out their fashion, and if it's disruptive at school then it's not OK. There are several ways to be "individualistic" in dress at school: the corporate/branding way, the sexually teasing way, the "way outside the norm" way. I believe that to the extent young people are allowed or encouraged to "push the envelope" in the way they dress, they will put their energy into that direction, instead of doing the hard work of getting beneath the surface of who they and others really are.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

153. Or...

they'll do both. By having uniforms you are punishing kids who are mature enough to handle their own decisions.

[Ron Green]

164. How about this plan for a school day:

In the morning, the kids show up in a simple kind of uniform clothing, and do a very traditional half-day of math, history, science, English and such. They have to treat the teachers very politely, even formally, and basically do an old-fashioned boarding school trip.

Then in the afternoon, they return in whatever they want to wear, and work on whatever project they're excited about...garage band, robotics, basketball, street theater...whatever leads them on. And they have all the facilities and resources of the school to help them work on it.

The deal is, if they don't show up in the morning, they can't come in the afternoon.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

169. How about let's just produce lots and lots of clones?

It would cut down on teaching time.

[Ron Green]

170. I don't understand how the sort of schedule I proposed would produce

lots and lots of clones. It's important for young people to work on their own projects, the things that turn them on, and it's also important for them to learn the fundamental skills of being a human being in a pluralistic democracy. I believe that one of the main reasons that we are having such trouble with history repeating itself is that not enough people learned much history in the first place. It's a balance between "doing your own thing" and "doing the right thing." Both are important, IMO.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

171. Doing your own thing... "Traditional" threw me off, I suppose.

I don't think traditional learning works for most kids, and that was a major component of the schedule you proposed, correct?

I'm fine with the traditional part of the academic schooling, however, why do we need a uniform? It would really creep me out if everyone was wearing the same uniform and learning the same exact way... which is sort of how I envision your morning proposal. Like little schoolchildren clones.

[Ron Green]

177. Right. It's like not allowing your kid dessert until he eats his

vegetables. We know the vegetables (history, math, English) are good for him, so we set up a reward system. It's not exactly the same, because the kids' afternoon projects at school are where they will find the joys of what they will do with their lives. But without the foundation of the "hard stuff," they'll not have the strength to make their own projects work when the going is tough.

What many teachers have come to is trying to make the "core curriculum" fun by doing all kinds of entertainment and "relevant" activities. I don't think most young people see the relevance of history, or poetry for that matter. Through "doing their own thing" they will start to see how all that went before them relates to what they want to do (as long as they are required to do the boring stuff as well.) The boring stuff will pay off...adults understand that, but kids don't.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

178. But instead of doing it that way...

Why not incorporate the kid's solo project so that it relates to the academic subjects? I find most of the "standards" actually stunt learning rather than accelerating it. Teachers now have to spend so much time teaching a certain way to make sure kids pass certain tests, that there is no time/money to learn things hands on and creatively anymore.

You still didn't answer my uniform question.

[Ron Green]

180. I fully agree that the kid's solo project should be part of the academic

stuff that is required. I also agree that "teaching to the test" is bogus, and wastes time and resources. I think where you and I mostly disagree is about the uniform business. I'm just thinking that if it were done in a limited way, and leading to the solo work, it would build the capacity for hard work that school is not very often doing now. I mean, most adults will agree that lots of kids are lost at school, getting mixed messages and being pulled in different directions by standardized tests here, corporate branding there, fear and hormones everywhere else. School should be a safe place, but a challenging place. I think my little "half-day" idea would work. Most kids would suffer through the pain of a rigid morning in order to get to be who they really are becoming in the afternoon. I feel that it's worth a try. What's happening now certainly isn't working very well.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

181. We agree mostly...

Would wearing a uniform solve those problems though? The kid is the same in or out of a uniform. You will still have all the social problems that come along with not having uniforms. Kids will still know eachother's financial situation, kids will still form popular cliques, regardless of what they're wearing. It's human nature to do so. So I guess I still fail to see what uniforms would be useful for...

[LanternWaste]

129. I really don't understand the neccesity...

I really don't understand the necessity of expressing yourself at school. Makes me wonder if there are people out in the world who think that uniforms actually *deny* a person the ability to express themselves. Those people are going to have a very difficult time adapting to the uniforms we have to wear in the professional world.

It's odd to me that a person professes to express individuality by wearing the precise same style of clothing as a million other kids. A room full of 16-year olds, all dressed in the same manner is a rather odd way of attempting to say something about yourself-- other than, "I'm like everyone else in this classroom"

Focus on the express reason you're at school in the first place-- to achieve and grab the education provided to you. Everything else is of so little consequence in the long run, it's laughable.

Language has *always* been the ideal form of self-expression. Most people I know express themselves through verbal/written communication. I know it isn't sleek or edgy, but it does work. You want to express an idea about yourself, you *tell* a person that idea about yourself. You have an idea... great! Write it down. Additionally, it really doesn't cost as much to verbally communicate an idea as it does to buy a $100.00 pair of sneakers to express the same idea.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

131. But what about people who alter/design their clothes themselves?

By setting in place a standard uniform... you ARE stifling their individuality. Who cares if it's through clothing? Clothing can be an art form, like any painting in a museum. And nobody will deny that artwork expresses an artist's individuality. As such, clothing can also express individuality.

[LanternWaste]

138. Sure...O-kay.

Sure...O-kay. Setting a uniform standard of clothing in place prevents school children from being or expressing individuality. :eyes:

Again, I feel I have to reiterate that any schoolchild who cannot express themselves except through clothing really needs a few lessons in creativity and imagination; and be made aware that clothing does not hinder or enhance a person's individuality. It merely *advertises* individuality-- and my opinion is that a person who feels the need to advertise that is doing so merely out of a need of self-validation.

:)

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

139. Creativity isn't taught. Only the individual can cultivate it.

Creativity is something that is cultivated within yourself. Nobody can be forced to be creative. Your entire post is an INSULT to me... I am a photographer and painter. Yes, I also design clothing. It's an art form, it takes creative thinking to design clothing. I'm also a writer. I have several outlets, but I like to express my personality on the outside as well as on the inside. You obviously do not understand the creative mind at all if you think that makes me a "less creative" person.

I think it's important to remember that taking away the expensive clothing doesn't make the popular girl any less of a bitch. That's her personality, and it will shine through regardless of what clothing she's wearing. So it doesn't matter.

[LanternWaste]

146. Hmmm...

I'm sorry if you inferred an insult where none was intended. :( The direction of the response was targeted to the implied statement, "I am less an individual if I wear a uniform". I simply don't think any one person is less of an individual due to the clothes being worn and I get somewhat exasperated when I see the youth of today feeling constrained in imagination to the point where clothes become the identity.

I can go to a meeting in the morning wearing my standard white shirt, tie and slacks and it has no bearing on *who* I am. On the other side of the coin, when I go home and thrown on a t-shirt and blue jeans, I'm *still* the individual I was in the morning. I dress for what is most appropriate to the fundamental situation.

In the same vein, I don't think that a child in school is any less of who they are simply because they dress in a uniform standard. That's my entire point: focusing on advertising who a person is is meaningless-- that person *is* an individual regardless of the standardization of uniform.

You're right. I don't understand the creative mind. I don't understand the mind. In fact, I don't think anyone does-- if we did, we wouldn't be constantly amazed at the the things we do and think as we grow! :)

Yet, going back to the initial post, I have a difficult time believing that a six-year old wearing a pair of pants that says "bootylicious" across the hind-quarters is really expressing herself in a manner that she fully comprehends...

I think it's great that you write and design! Good luck- writing is a tough field and I've found myself compromising more often than not to get my fee at the end of the day. :)

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

151. This isn't about the six year old issue

It's about the uniform issue. If you want to read my earlier in the day opinion on younger kids wearing those types of clothes- you'll know I feel the same way you do...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2310386&mesg_id=2315137&page=

[LanternWaste]

157. Great!

Well, great! We have common ground regarding the main issue and the only wrinkle is an inferred insult which wasn't. :)

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

130. That's not always true.

I'm an artist. As does my artwork, my clothes often express a lot about my personality. Not everybody dresses like a teen pop idol. I certainly don't. I do feel uniforms in schools would stifle me (and yes, my individuality) and a lot of other kids who don't follow the mainstream trends. Not all kids shop at American Eagle, and I think that's an important factor in the uniforms debate. There's a difference between being forced to dress the same (uniforms) and having a trend in clothing where everyone dresses the same. The latter gives freedom for those who don't follow everybody else.

[sadiesworld]

133. Is anyone preventing you from making your own clothing?

Is anyone suggesting that you not be allowed to wear these outfits after school and on the weekends? Why not get involved in school plays and/or community theater and really let your talents shine?

I appreciate your creativity, but you are in an incredibly small minority. More often than not, kids dress according to the latest trends (or as much as possible depending upon their parents' finances).

I see the various problems created by non-uniform policies at schools (gangs, indecency, expense/class issues and increased consumerism, teaching time dealing with this issue) as far outweighing any stifling of creativity.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

137. Who says I don't get involved in that sort of thing?

I've was in an acting troupe for a number of years. Acting isn't the same thing as clothing design. It is (for some kids) an art that shouldn't be stifled. The problems of class/gang issues that you mention are going to be there no matter what the policy is on uniforms. Just because you take away the expensive clothing, doesn't mean there won't still be prejudice in these regards. Let kids follow trends. You can't stop things like that from taking place. When you alter the rules to try and combat things like this, you are hurting the kids who DO have an established sense of individuality (and there are more of them than you give credit for).

[sadiesworld]

148. I referred to theater b/c of costume design.

Sorry, I thought it was obvious...I should have been clearer.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

152. Yeah, I got that after i re-read

I understand, but being in theatre you're still forced to adhere to what the director needs the costumes to be like, and you have historical accuracy and all that stuff. I'm talking about clothing design just to be yourself. Not to have anybody else's standards or influences.

[Ms. Toad]

144. As a former teacher

I can tell you that I lost far more class time enforcing the dress code than I ever lost to any disruption caused by anything that any student (even the most outrageously dressed) was wearing.

I personally dislike much of the clothing kids are wearing these days, but the argument that having a dress code minimizes the teaching time lost to the disruption caused by inappropriate clothing is nonsense.

As oppressive as I found the dress code (and the enforcement thereof) to be in the school I taught at to be, it is much worse in my daughter's high school. As an example, girls are not allowed to wear "cap" sleeves - they must be full short sleeves. Just how one tells what is a cap sleeve as opposed to a full short sleeve, I am not sure. Nor am I sure why the extra inch or so of upper arm (or the shoulder, for that matter, since sleeveless shirts are banned completely) causes such a disruption that it must be banned.

[Mysterious]

179. Good Point

In my experience, uniforms work very well. It's easier on the parent's pocketbook and kids don't have to worry about what to wear when they get up in the morning.

As far as uniforms stifling individuality - It's much better to teach kids to use their personality to "tell" people who they are.

After all, kids are in school to learn. The fewer distractions, the better!

[progressivebydesign]

83. Our schools have dress codes... and they stick.

AND.. for some reason, the kids in our area don't dress that way, for the most part. My jr. high daughter KNOWS what is appropriate, and what makes you look like a streetwalker. She wants none of that. It's the parents who influence the kids, it's the parents who BUY the clothes, or approve the clothes. Don't let anyone tell you differently. There's a magic word, "NO", that we use around our house. It's something the parent says, and the kid understands. I'm always shocked by parents who act as if they have NO say in what their kids buy, wear, watch, or do... it's called parenting. It's not repression, it's teaching the kids self-respect so they dont' want to look like that, so that they understand at an early age that dressing like that is meant to attract sexual attention, and is not something girls her age should be looking for. If you ask my daughter and her friends, who all dress like regular kids, they are not repressed, oppressed, or pressured into doing the right things.. they have self-respect. Oh.. and the high school here is also free of that kind of crap clothes. The parents here back up the school on this.. I never see that stuff.

I keep seeing the cherry shirts, and they make me ill. The buyers working for those stores are greedy and clueless or worse.

[LibDemAlways]

87. In my So. Calif. suburb

the moms' standard uniform is tight shorts and a tank top that accentuates the breast augmentation. I worked registration at my daughter's middle school the other day and just about every little Lolita wanna-be was being trailed by a mother who looked like she was on her way to a Hollywood street corner. I know it's hard to find age-appropriate clothing for "tweens," but with these women as role models, it's no wonder the kids look so slutty.

[SarahB]

90. It's called parenting.

I have a 12 year old daughter that is taller than me now who looks about 15 or 16. However, she doesn't have a job and can't get one yet, so who buys her clothes? Her parents. Parents need to use some authority and guidance and not be afraid to say no. If they like something that's inappropriate- explain why it's inappropriate and don't buy it for them!

Don't parents say "no" anymore? :wtf:

[progressivebydesign]

110. Did you read my post a few above yours?

I had the same response.. and oddly enough, my 12 year old stepdaughter is also taller than me, now. She's really great about listening to us when we have to say "no". I am always so freaked out by listening to other parents, "I couldn't get near the computer all weekend, my kid was on it", or "she does what she wants, I just live here" (as though it's a joke).

My 12 year old was wearing some very tall shoes last year, and with her long legs and jeans, we noticed that grown men were checking her out (gross!). We discussed it, and she REALLY did not like that type of attention (even tho she was dressed like a normal kid, her height made her look older). So she agreed no more tall shoes for a few years... she wears mostly flats, and takes special care that her wardrobe is cute, but definitely age-appropriate. She understands that she doesn't want sexual attention.. she's a kid. Lots of parents think that jr. high is the age to tart up your kids.. I see it a lot, and think the mothers or fathers get a thrill if their daughter is sexually attractive... perhaps it's their own unrequited sexual issues.

I think some kids are naturally more reasonable, and easier to parent, but I think if you start out with them on the right foot, it helps. We talk about everything, and she understands where and why the lines are drawn on some issues. She has a nice life, and knows that part of that comes from being a cooperative kid. Parent is a verb in our house, and I think it sounds like a verb in your house, too. It makes for great kids, and happy families.

[bobthedrummer]

93. "Boy Magnet" with graphics is printed on the crotch of some girls cotton

underwear, this is shown in printed ads for department stores locally.
:eyes:

[October]

96. Agree

My husband and I went to the movies last night. We were shocked by how these 11- and 12-year old girls were dressed and made up. And all the girls had been "dropped off" at the theater. Interestingly, the girls who came "with parents" were dressed normally and looked like kids, not miniature pop star wannabes.

I recall a few years back when the media was talking about how girls were dressing like Britney Spears and how parents acted like "What can you do? Stores 'forced' this look," etc. Bull.

Our daughter never dressed like that -- and still doesn't. We're not prudes, but she's 14 and dresses cool but decent.

I get so annoyed at these parents because there are plenty of stores where you can buy normal stylish clothes for kids. These parents act like they can't possibly imagine ever saying "no" to their children. Weird. You can say "no" in a nice, helpful, and respectful way too.

For the record, the boys looked like boys. The girls looked old enough to be mothers to the boys they were dating. They looked so mismatched. I also noticed those low-rider pants for boys seemed to have gone out of style.

[October]

97. Agree

My husband and I went to the movies last night. We were shocked by how these 11- and 12-year old girls were dressed and made up. And all the girls had been "dropped off" at the theater. Interestingly, the girls who came "with parents" were dressed normally and looked like kids, not miniature pop star wannabes.

I recall a few years back when the media was talking about how girls were dressing like Britney Spears and how parents acted like "What can you do? Stores 'forced' this look," etc. Bull.

Our daughter never dressed like that -- and still doesn't. We're not prudes, but she's 14 and dresses cool but decent.

I get so annoyed at these parents because there are plenty of stores where you can buy normal stylish clothes for kids. These parents act like they can't possibly imagine ever saying "no" to their children. Weird. You can say "no" in a nice, helpful, and respectful way too.

For the record, the boys looked like boys. The girls looked old enough to be mothers to the boys they were dating. They looked so mismatched. I also noticed those low-rider pants for boys seemed to have gone out of style.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

100. Whatever the maket will bare..er, bear. Not a problem in Darfur.

Heard a report on NPR yesterday about how our beloved capitalists are targeting 2&3 year olds with advertising. How even small children are aware of "labels".

Follow the money.

[genius]

109. Lighten up. Kids like that often have parents following to protect them

It's important to give kids independence. However, a lot of kids you see dressed like that also have parents following them around to make sure no one uses their choice of clothing as an excuse to harm them. In school, parents often expect the school staff to protect their kids and they have every right to that expectation. If you're a teacher, just make sure no one harrasses kids who dress like that.

[Christof]

115. I don't like the thought of kids being forced to wear uniforms.

I like that kids can express their individuality. I hate it when I see students dressed all the same, acting the same, and doing the same things because of uniforms. If I had a kid, I'd want him/her to wear whatever they wanted to school (as long as I find it appropriate).

[kittykitty]

119. anyone familiar with the cartoon "For Better or for Worse? It

addresses the same issues. It is about a family in Canada, and the youngest daughter is now in 9th grade in middle school. She wants to wear a skimpy dres to school, but her mothermakes her wear a leotard under it.

This cartoon deals with the 6th graders attire--the dsame as the discussion here. Link to cartoon
http://www.comics.com/comics/forbetter/archive/forbetter-20040904.html

[Cleita]

125. I love that comic strip.

I've been reading it before the middle school child was a twinkle in daddy's eye. It's very well done.

[kittykitty]

147. Me too! Michael was in middle school, and Elizabeth was still in

Elementary school. Lynn has carried the story line along so beautifiully, and truthfully. Now, with Michael married and expecting his second child, and Elizabeth on her own, I wonder ho much longer it will go on. I expect Ellie's Dad will die, Elizabeth will marry, April will grow up, facing different social isues than Michael, and John and Ellie will retire and become old. Lynn will handle it elegantly.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

124. I'm 17, and even I don't remember clothes being this bad when I was a kid

I was out shopping the other day and found myself totally appaled at some of the stuff that's out there for girls to dress in. I don't think I would even be able to find clothing I'd like if I were that age again. When I was younger, I shopped in JC Penney and department stores because that was pretty much all there was for younger kids. The raciest thing I even remember seeing back then was a strappy tank top, and even that still covered pretty much everything but your shoulders. Now that I'm older, it seems there are shops like Limited Too that cater specifically to that age group. They have the mentality of providing "big sister's clothes at a little kid's size". Most of these clothes are tight, glittery, whatever it is. Abercrombie's kids line is even marketing thongs to 10 year old girls!

I'm not conservative by any means, but this is ridiculous. Being a teenager sucks, anybody that's going to let their kid extend their teenage phase by dressing like one is stupid. Girls in my 12th grade class are dressing like this, but kids in 6th grade aren't ready for the attention that comes with dressing provacatively. I'm doing quite fine and my parents never let me wear those clothes when I was little (pretty much because they didn't exist).

BTW, I'd like to find out the manufacturer of the cherry shirt and give them a piece of my mind.

[barb162]

126. I am totally with you on this.

I can't believe the way the kids are dressing. Even worse, I can't believe the parents are letting the kids dress this way. The parents hold the purse strings and the stores do in fact carry a variety of merchandise. If all you do is go to teen stores, then all you will find is this trash look. But if you go to dept. stores, there are tasteful, good -looking clothes. Teenage girls don't have to look like hookers.

what ever happened to good taste? What ever happened to parents acting like parents and putting their foot down and saying I am not letting MY kid wear this trash?

[Catholic Sensation]

140. most of you can't say anything about modern trends

'nuff said

all you adults who feel the need to shit on kids for wearing clothes you don't like have been served.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

154. Or oh! wait!

How many of you saved up to get these puppies?

[JohnKleeb]

168. eeeeek those are hideous

[SayitAintSo]

142. The 60 Minutes clip on Porn suggested that the widespread

use of porn via the internet, downloadling, CD's etc. plays a very large role in the barbie slut -puppie dresscode our teens have adopted. It disgusts me. It looks like cultural de-volution to me. I hat to see it in these young girls. i wonder wha the other side effects will be, more dumbing down ?

[Trahurn]

155. I can understand you concern

I can understand you concern and your reaction to what you say you have seen and indeed there are parents not doing their job but I have to ask why is this question appropriate for a post on a political party message board in the heat of an election?

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

156. If I may...

Election topics are in GD:2004 if you would like to discuss the election.

Domestic problems are being discussed in this forum. And yes, this roughly fits as a domestic/culture discussion into this forum. It is not a lounge topic because it's not light hearted, it's serious.

Hope that helps to clarify.

[Ripley]

174. Faith is always in Fashion.

This is creepy to me.